Is live music/touring in danger?!

[Mr. Holland]

I saw this statement from Indie rockband Animal Collective:

And then reading further, this one from Hebra Kadrey, who mixed and mastered the new Björk album:



Seems that touring is in danger for all acts, except the big top 40 hit machines. It's been building up for years it seems. I remember Bill Bruford citing one of the reasons for his retirement is that it became impossible for him to take his Earthworks band overseas for touring. That there were so many rules and costs that it was just not viable. Fish, ex-Marillion, has also cited it as one of the reasons for his coming retirement.

Sad state of affairs when live music is disappearing

[Frumious B]

When this topic comes up I always say that the obvious fix is to cut the labels out of the loop. With modern technology it is easier than ever for artists to record, release and promote their own music with no label involvement. IMHO labels don’t actually provide much value any longer while getting paid many times what the artists get paid.

[Mr. Holland]

When this topic comes up I always say that the obvious fix is to cut the labels out of the loop. With modern technology it is easier than ever for artists to record, release and promote their own music with no label involvement. IMHO labels don’t actually provide much value any longer while getting paid many times what the artists get paid.

I agree. But as is also being said, streaming services should be adjusted and laws should be made for those streaming services to provide the artists get paid good value for what they deliver.

[luvyesmusic]

Just look at what has been going on. Health concerns, costs, insurance in general.

That being said, while tours have been canceled and downsized, and many folks may never return to shows for various reasons, people are coming out in droves to attend certain live events. Life is short. You can't or shouldn't be afraid, whether you have compromised, or age issues .

Some events may never, happen, again, and that includes marriages, and funerals.

[JMKUSA]

I wonder how the financials are working out for Yes touring this year. No meet and greets means less revenue, presumably. It takes a lot of people to put on a tour like this.

[Frumious B]

I agree. But as is also being said, streaming services should be adjusted and laws should be made for those streaming services to provide the artists get paid good value for what they deliver.

Artists who self release would have the ability to either negotiate their own terms for streaming or they could come together as a unionized bloc to collectively negotiate a better deal. I don’t feel that legislation action is warranted or necessary.

This is an interesting read:

[Homemade Parachute]

I definitely don't have the answers, but the problems are complicated, for sure. I'm often reminded of this Mick Jagger quote c. 2010:

…It's all changed in the last couple of years. We've gone through a period where everyone downloaded everything for nothing and we've gone into a grey period it's much easier to pay for things - assuming you've got any money.

Are you quite relaxed about it?

I am quite relaxed about it. But, you know, it is a massive change and it does alter the fact that people don't make as much money out of records.

But I have a take on that - people only made money out of records for a very, very small time. When The Rolling Stones started out, we didn't make any money out of records because record companies wouldn't pay you! They didn't pay anyone!

Then, there was a small period from 1970 to 1997, where people did get paid, and they got paid very handsomely and everyone made money. But now that period has gone.

So if you look at the history of recorded music from 1900 to now, there was a 25 year period where artists did very well, but the rest of the time they didn't.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8681410.stm

So 1970-95 or so might be the anomaly, and where we are now is more "normal", lousy as that is.

While it's easy to say technology makes recording and producing a good-sounding body of work possible and cheap, it doesn't solve a lot of other problems, the main ones being cultural: my kids, for example, will likely never "pay" for an album, having now grown up with streaming. That barn door is open and unclosable. But discoverability of new artists, at scale, is also a problem: if everyone can bang out songs or an album and Bandcamp it or Spotify it, where do the listeners come from, besides The Algorithm? Again, at the scale required to make a real go of it? Without a label that helps curate listening, saying no to a lot to say yes to some, does that leave everyone scrabbling over a few streaming pennies? Or do DJs and playlist makers come back to the fore, like radio DJs of yore?

A lower- to mid-range band like Marillion can make a go off their established fan base, but could they establish it today? Touring indeed isn't always the answer: growing up as a Canadian, you got a sense of how difficult touring could be, with everything so far apart that gigs could easily be a day or two apart, which is kind of where we're back to, with more expenses and red tape and borders. Merch is indeed one option, if you've got the fan base willing to pay out for the shirt.

Ultimately, the option to be a "professional" musician, ie, someone who can make a sustainable living off of the practice, may not be feasible economically for nearly as many as we've been used to, and we'll be left with a professional level for very few, and a hobbyist industry for the rest, or seek patrons.

[luvyesmusic]

I wonder how the financials are working out for Yes touring this year. No meet and greets means less revenue, presumably. It takes a lot of people to put on a tour like this.

I thought someone explained it before, and I could be wrong, but the M & Gs are generally not money that goes to the band, but the venues. Most band members ( any bands ) in general, are not big fans of the M & Gs.

I was once privy to what my local venue made at the end of the night, and it really wasn't a huge sum of money when you factor in all the costs. These places depend on shows, foot traffic, drinks, and food, on a regular basis, not just to keep staff, but to keep the lights on.

My little local guy had some various personell issues, some drug related, certainly financial issues, making payments, and really thought outside the box to get all kinds of demographics in the door, even Spanish dancing nights. Poor Jay was criticized to no en, by almost everyone. I'm not saying everything was above board, but he tried in so many ways, changing names, etc. Tough buisness, and s lot depends on where you are, and what you can afford, and who will come in.

Well, a big corporation bought him out, and I believe they had three major acts, and they folded after a couple of months, and this was long before Covid. I believe Haken was their last act, and they were done the next day. Don't even know if Haken got all their money?

[luna65]

I remember Bill Bruford citing one of the reasons for his retirement is that it became impossible for him to take his Earthworks band overseas for touring. That there were so many rules and costs that it was just not viable.

And that says a lot, considering how popular Jazz is in certain parts of the world.

[kkleinschmidt]

Interesting article about this very subject...

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/oct/28/youre-doing-it-purely-for-the-exposure-why-many-musicians-can-no-longer-afford-to-tour

Meanwhile folks like Live Nation are raking in money hand over fist. Not sure how all of this is going to end up but I'm guessing for bands like Yes that have tentacles in both the US and UK this situation is a real problem (and might explain some of the, ah, grouchiness being felt at some shows).

[luna65]

Meanwhile folks like Live Nation are raking in money hand over fist.

Because they own a piece of everything: ticketing, venues, concessions, parking, promotion, meet & greets.

[Olorin]

I had tickets to two shows of Clannad’s farewell tour, St. Louis and Chicago, which were originally supposed to be in the fall of 2020. It got delayed twice because of Covid and was ultimately going to be this fall, but then they cancel the North American leg. They said the rising cost of touring had just made it impossible for them to bring the show in the way they wanted to present it.

So yeah, given how much harder it’s becoming to do an international tour, and that most bands make their money off touring as opposed to selling records, the final days of bands like Yes maybe upon us, whether we or they want that or not.

[Insidious Grip]

Clannad remain one of my favorite groups but they might not be a big enough draw for a complete North American tour. Too few of their target audience are willing and/or able to go to the shows. Taylor Swift will sell lots of tickets.

[Olorin]

Even in a city as huge as Chicago, they typically played small places like House of Blues.

[alex peters]

Just look at what has been going on. Health concerns, costs, insurance in general.

That being said, while tours have been canceled and downsized, and many folks may never return to shows for various reasons, people are coming out in droves to attend certain live events. Life is short. You can't or shouldn't be afraid, whether you have compromised, or age issues .

Some events may never, happen, again, and that includes marriages, and funerals.

The 40 and under folks have no $ and a ton of student loan and credit card debt. They cannot afford any entertainment other than their internet. Plus all your valid reasons.