Roger Waters felt Phil Collins "Fake " song writer and Front man

[YESOLA]

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/musician-roger-waters-didnt-consider-a-real-rock-star/

[rePete]

Meh. Roger Waters opinion on just about anything doesn't hold a lot of water these days.

I think he says this stuff for attention. Trying to be relevant.

[Drone Decipher]

"When speaking to Musician magazine, Waters thought the music world should be divided between artists who write based on feelings and artists who write to please the audience."

I find this highly questionable. How could anyone possibly discern this and be sure anyone else would even agree. More division in the music world? I don't believe in that. Why shouldn't musicians make music that makes them money? Is rich Roger Waters trying and convince poor me to be suspicious of rich Phil Collins' musicality because he got rich from it? What am I supposed to think of Roger Waters then?

Regardless of whatever one person thinks about it though, it's an age old question that has no answer. Everyone has their own personal way to balance their own satisfaction with that of the audience in their music.

[madbear]

Feelings has nothing to with art, music, poetry, songs, theatre etc. They are made of paint/sound/language/action, and no creator can guarantee how an audience will react or what they will feel. Music can provoke, amuse, entertain, divert or challenge - but it doesn't have to do anything. Waters is desperate for attention and sales these days.

[Enlighten]

I think it goes too far to say that Phil was “pretending to be a rockstar or a songwriter.” He wrote some brilliant songs during his time in Genesis and the guy could authentically rock out. Phil was an amazing drummer, totally underrated. People forget about his time in Brand X.

Corporate rock was an actual phenomenon though and Phil did swim in those waters, more so as a solo artist. It’s not black and white and the article is pretty flimsy in terms of a broader context of what might have been said.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

I didn't read the article, but I took that to mean his, or the writer's, feelings.

Love ya Roger but maybe there's a better way to be, than insulting people whenever you speak omg dude.

I respect Phil, he gets too much sh!t thrown his way, and I'm not even a Genesis or Phil fan. I am a big Floyd fan but I sure wish Waters could've learned to be kind.

[downbyariver]

William Shakespeare wrote for the masses. Seriously. It only became high-brow stuff beloved by educators and the upper classes and disliked by the stereotypical blue collar person in later times.

I would also point out that rock and roll, generalizing the genre (at least in it's 20th century incarnation), has always been written for the masses to some degree (Albeit specifically for young people at the beginning). Prog rock that is particularly written for the sake of the art without reference to popular trends is a small minority of the overall rock and roll picture, and even much of that was written with an eye towards having some music that was more accessible or that was crossover popular so they could get some radio airplay in the interests of keeping a contract with the record label (and, yes, getting or staying rich and famous).

Some people historically, especially in the early going, actually criticized all the original members having gone to prep school instead of public school, and the complexity of their music (The first album aside) as being too elitist to be real rock and roll. So, it's funny to hear Mr. Waters criticize them (Namely, Collins) from the perspective of being too "pop" and broadly accessible, essentially, even though I realize he is referring to a different era of Genesis music- it's essentially the opposite criticism of what he and his bandmates often received in their early days (Though he wasn't with them on their first album or two.). Even the time period Waters is implicitly criticizing saw Collins again get criticized for conservative views on tax policy (As a center-left man, I disagree with him, but still love his music), which would again seem to the elitist side, with Waters again making essentially the opposite criticism of him by implication.

Anyhow, almost everyone who is being honest would agree that Collins was a stand out drummer. I've seen prog-heads who think he ruined Genesis as a lead singer reluctantly have to concede that he was a great drummer. And that great drumming didn't end even when he got behind the mic (Well, except for needing a second drummer live because he had to focus on the singing)- he innovated much of the sound that became the the 1980s, continuing to drum on all the studio albums he sang on. One may or may not like what happened to drumming in the 80s, but the sense that Collins helped invent something that was very influential in that area is I think probably accurate. His solo song "In the Air Tonight" was one example of continuing to make advances in drumming technique (Namely, gated reverb, though he and producer Hugh Padgham first came up when Collins was serving as as a session drummer/special guest on a Peter Gabriel solo album- either way, Collins was one of the two guys responsible. And that wasn't the only influential thing he did behind the kit.).

Moreover, people often discount Collins' writing contributions on some of the Genesis albums before he became the lead singer, the first two albums after he became lead singer were essentially still attempts to do what they'd been doing before, and his third and fourth albums as lead singer, which were a mix of prog or progish, or at least not especially commercial ideas, with things that become hit radio singles.

Even in the later days of his Genesis recording career, there were sometimes lengthy songs or songs that otherwise did not seem like attempts at a crossover pop single on those albums.

I would also just point out that, though I get that Roger Waters' appeal as a singer isn't in his technical skill, but in the unique kind of "real" character to his work, it is nevertheless worth noting that Phil Collins was a much better technical singer, and had a voice that was unique enough that you could have him singing a song (in his prime, not today) without identifying who the lead singer is and putting it up against a "soundalike" performer singing the same song and people would likely be able to pick out Collins anyway.

I also admittedly real love the Genesis albums that Waters probably especially hates, namely the last three studio albums of new material featuring Collins.

Waters is one of the more overrated singers in the history of rock and roll, and Pink Floyd is not in Genesis' league, though I would hasten to point out that they had a fair amount of commercial success, too, which Waters thinks doesn't make him a sellout, but does think makes Collins a sellout, even though Waters presumably has no first hand knowledge that Collins was writing his later hits specifically just to record hit songs and not because those were the songs he wanted to make. A really good song about love or loss can be artistic, too, in it's own way, and certainly can come from a place of passion. A lot of Collins' songs in that area seemed to be based on some real life romantic struggles.

Every time Roger opens his mouth, it just makes him look worse and worse. He can't just say that he didn't care for 80s Genesis that much, but instead he takes a personal shot at Phil Collins. Not only is what he said not really fair to Collins and the body of his work, it especially seems like a cheap shot in light of Collins' clearly flagging health. However, this is far from the most ridiculous or outrageous thing he's said of late. There doesn't seem to be any filter. If he has a PR person, that person is probably kept quite busy cleaning up after unforced errors like this.

[YESOLA]

I think it goes too far to say that Phil was “pretending to be a rockstar or a songwriter.” He wrote some brilliant songs during his time in Genesis and the guy could authentically rock out. Phil was an amazing drummer, totally underrated. People forget about his time in Brand X.

Corporate rock was an actual phenomenon though and Phil did swim in those waters, more so as a solo artist. It’s not black and white and the article is pretty flimsy in terms of a broader context of what might have been said.

Yeah I agree Listen to those albums with Gabriel especially since he was a phenomenal drummer, and yes, Brand X I was just watching a video of them with Collins really great.


From the article -

Granted, it seemed the displeasure went both ways as well. When talking about his experience listening to Pink Floyd’s albums, Collins said that he was never delighted either, recalling, “I was aware of what they were doing. But I never was really a fan. I was in a band that was kind of being always put in the same box as that lot. But never felt that we actually were in the same box. But we probably were.”

Collins didn’t necessarily let his naysayers affect him, going on to contribute songs to the soundtrack to Disney’s Tarzan while also pleasing his pop fans with his solo career and Genesis. No matter how much technical chops Collins had, though, Waters would always see him as the court jester version of what a rock star is supposed to be.

[YESOLA]

Anyhow, almost everyone who is being honest would agree that Collins was a stand out drummer. I've seen prog-heads who think he ruined Genesis as a lead singer reluctantly have to concede that he was a great drummer.

I think people who think like that need to realize that Genesis was formed in part by Rutherford and Banks (not Collins), and they were totally into whatever direction the band was going in.

[luna65]

Tony ran the band, period.

But I don't care what Roger thinks of Phil and vice versa.

[soundchaser09]

what a t**t

Genesis was always far more interesting than Pink Floyd regardless.

[madbear]

Whilst I wish Phil Collins hadn't sung, especially on his solo stuff, he was indeed a phenomenal drummer; and Trick of the Tail is good. Otherwise I'll pass. But in the same way i don't like much post-Gabriel Genesis, I also find The Wall and The Final Cut inlistenable, along with with Waters' solo stuff. And as for the travesty of Dark Side he has just releaased...!

[YESOLA]

Whilst I wish Phil Collins hadn't sung, especially on his solo stuff, he was indeed a phenomenal drummer; and Trick of the Tail is good. Otherwise I'll pass. But in the same way i don't like much post-Gabriel Genesis, I also find The Wall and The Final Cut inlistenable, along with with Waters' solo stuff. And as for the travesty of Dark Side he has just releaased...!

I hate to use the term overrated, but in the case of the Wall, yeah.

I like a lot of Genesis post-Gabriel Trick (the one you mention) but also all of Wind and Wuthering (alright we'll take out the syrupy song) Just about all of 3, much of Duke, some of Abacab, some of Genesis, Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance. I don't think the Calling all Stations records was terrible but it lacked some direction.

All in my view of course.

[Frumious B]

Musician Magazine ceased publication in 1999. The interview cited in the linked article is from 1992. Why are they mining thirty year old articles from defunct publications for click bait?

[pianozach]

Waters has been a whiny little twit for quite a while now.

Sometimes I agree with him, but more often I don't.

Yeah, some of the observations made are spot-on: He's trying to be relevant, even if this IS from 1992. It's the same song today, but he's trying to be retroactively relevant by reframing DARK SIDE OF THE MOON as his baby, not needing the fabulous guitar and voice of Gilmour, the nuanced keyboards of Wright, and the artistic vision of Mason.

Aside from being able to mount concert tours featuring music from 40 years ago, he's a has been that is desperately attempting to be relevant.

As far as Collins and Genesis goes, Phil was a fabulous drummer, and had a very recognizable and well-loved voice; both his solo career and the band Genesis were unstoppable. And Genesis didn't "sell out" and "go pop" because of Collins . . . I'd wager that it was more the other guys simply having moved into new territory musically.