Supper's Ready

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  • Yorkshire Square
    Bottoms Up!
    • Nov 2021
    • 694

    #31
    Originally posted by Oldie on the Goldie

    More effective for what? Duke's Travels/End is a great instrumental, but the other two songs you mention are just standard 80s pop cheese. But if you like that sort of thing, I guess I've answered my own question.
    Well of course I like the tracks I've mentioned otherwise, well, you know...

    They're more effective, in my opinion, as tracks that hang together as a complete composition. This is possibly because they're an organic development, over an extended piece, of a smaller number of themes and ideas. Suppers Ready, on the other hand, while it has some excellent ideas is quite clearly a jigsaw of a number of smaller pieces that often don't quite fit together as well as they might. FFH is similar to SR in that respect but, again in my opinion, it is more cohesive.

    It gets a bit tiring, this 70s great, 80s crap mantra. The tracks I mention are far from cheesy and indeed I'd posit that there was as least as much cheese in the 70s as there was in the 80s, even in some of the work of the so called "progressive" artists. There is a whole raft of great music in the 80s from both the established acts of the 70s and from newer bands and artists.

    And, yes, sometimes I like a bit of cheese...

    Comment

    • Oldie on the Goldie
      Superyesfan
      • Apr 2022
      • 388

      #32
      OK, I understand your comment now Mr. Square. Thanks for clarifying. I do agree that Supper's Ready was more of a suite than a singular composition.

      PS Cheese in moderation is fine. My problem was the overplaying of such music on the radio in the 80s (and as you said there was plenty of cheese in the 70s too).
      Last edited by Oldie on the Goldie; 02-02-2023, 11:52 PM.

      Comment

      • Soundwaveseeker
        Yes Master
        • Nov 2021
        • 1752

        #33
        Originally posted by Oldie on the Goldie

        Here's the context of my comment: awhile ago I was discussing post-Duke Genesis with someone who thought their music from that era wasn't all bad, and suggested I listen to Home by the Sea as an example of late Genesis "prog". So I found it online and started to listen to it, and immediately recognized it as one of those annoyingly overplayed songs I heard everywhere in the 80s in L.A. - on the radio, or blaring through loudspeakers in malls, petrol stations, restaurants etc. So sorry to say, I am not a fan, though maybe I should give the whole thing another chance (as soon as I recognized it, I turned it off). Nothing against anyone who likes that sort of stuff, music is subjective. But I can't imagine that anyone with some musical training would regard Home by the Sea as even remotely comparable a composition to Supper's Ready, much less a better one. I have to admit though that it took me a long time to "get" Supper's Ready. Complex compositions can be like that, whether classical or prog.

        PS I should've said standard Genesis pop cheese from that era.
        Home By The Sea is in the same bracket as something like Firth Of Fifth, Cinema Shoe etc. , just 'toughened up' and with a more 'accessible' melody and more modern (for the time) keyboards. It's got a long tricky instrumental section and a sense of resolve with the reprise of the main theme at the end (Second Home By The Sea). Home By The Sea does have the classic Genesis elements, just with an 80's makeover. I know it's a bit tricky sometimes, often fans of earlier work will hear the outer shell of the song but might not dig deeper to see if the old sound/approach/spirit is still intact. Often it is. The outer shell can often turn away potential enjoyment of a song from later in a band's career. Home By The Sea is like a classic Genesis track, Domino a little less so but still with recurring themes and instrumental atmospheres mixed in.

        I have heard the first half (the catchy half) over the speaker system at a grocery store or a Wal Mart and it sounded like they were going to play all ten minutes of it but then it was abruptly faded out - it was like someone said "NO! take it off quick before they get to the proggy instrumental section!!" Didn't wanna scare any customers with any scary good Tony Banks bits n' chords I guess.

        Comment

        • Yorkshire Square
          Bottoms Up!
          • Nov 2021
          • 694

          #34
          Originally posted by Soundwaveseeker

          Home By The Sea is in the same bracket as something like Firth Of Fifth, Cinema Shoe etc. , just 'toughened up' and with a more 'accessible' melody and more modern (for the time) keyboards. It's got a long tricky instrumental section and a sense of resolve with the reprise of the main theme at the end (Second Home By The Sea). Home By The Sea does have the classic Genesis elements, just with an 80's makeover. I know it's a bit tricky sometimes, often fans of earlier work will hear the outer shell of the song but might not dig deeper to see if the old sound/approach/spirit is still intact. Often it is. The outer shell can often turn away potential enjoyment of a song from later in a band's career. Home By The Sea is like a classic Genesis track, Domino a little less so but still with recurring themes and instrumental atmospheres mixed in.

          I have heard the first half (the catchy half) over the speaker system at a grocery store or a Wal Mart and it sounded like they were going to play all ten minutes of it but then it was abruptly faded out - it was like someone said "NO! take it off quick before they get to the proggy instrumental section!!" Didn't wanna scare any customers with any scary good Tony Banks bits n' chords I guess.
          Indeed!

          I used to own a couple of convenience stores and I used to "treat" my customers to all sorts of weird and wonderful tracks. Nothing like a bit of Van der Graaf Generator to serenade the old ladies on pension day... 😉

          Comment

          • Mr. Holland
            Yes Master
            • Nov 2021
            • 3071

            #35
            Originally posted by Oldie on the Goldie
            .....and of course, Home by the Sea doesn't even remotely compare to the masterpiece that is TEAKBOIS.
            😂😂😂

            Comment

            • Oldie on the Goldie
              Superyesfan
              • Apr 2022
              • 388

              #36
              Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show are my two favorite Genesis tracks. Sorry but I can't see Home by the Sea and Domino as even remotely comparable. Maybe its the 80s Genesis pop-flavored style that puts me off, but also I am biased because I simply could not escape hearing those songs in the 80s, even though I never owned the albums.

              Comment

              • Mr. Holland
                Yes Master
                • Nov 2021
                • 3071

                #37
                Originally posted by Oldie on the Goldie
                Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show are my two favorite Genesis tracks. Sorry but I can't see Home by the Sea and Domino as even remotely comparable. Maybe its the 80s Genesis pop-flavored style that puts me off, but also I am biased because I simply could not escape hearing those songs in the 80s, even though I never owned the albums.
                I think a lot of our preferences have got to do with which was the music around when we were growing up. I think research shows that mostly the music you listen to between 12-18 years of age is what determines your preference and what sticks with you the rest of your life.

                I was born in 1973 and really started to be interested in music around 1984. I also heard a lot of 80s Genesis on the radio, but I wasn't really aware of any Genesis before the 80s. The first Genesis albums I owned were Invisible Touch, Genesis 1983 and We Can't Dance. Actually, while I loved Genesis and I loved So by Peter Gabriel, I had no clue untill the beginning of the 90s that Gabriel had been the lead singer of Genesis (no internet around in these days and Peter never played any Genesis material in concert then). It was through "the Old Medley" during the "We Can't Dance" tour I discovered that and I started working my way backwards through their discography.

                I think the way you come into a band and in which order you learn their catalogue makes a big difference in ones preference. So I can imagine if you grew up with Genesis during the 70s and learned everything in order of release ones preference differs greatly from when you worked your way backwards through the catalogue.

                While I now love 70s Genesis, 80s Genesis is still very much on par with that. My favourite period is probably Trick of the Tail through Duke. And while I also love Gabriel era stuff, when there's a live version of a Gabriel era song with Collins on vocals in almost every instance I prefer that over the original, probably because to me the voice of Collins is inprinted in me as the voice of Genesis.

                So my favourite tracks are a diverse bunch from all over their career:

                20. Tonight, Tonight, Tonight
                19. Supper's Ready
                18. The Carpet Crawlers
                17. Turn it on Again
                16. Entangled
                15. One for the Vine
                14. The Cinema Show
                13. The Musical Box
                12. Domino
                11. Home by the Sea/Second Home by the Sea
                10. Duke's Travels/Duke's End
                09. Land of Confusion
                08. Mama
                07. No Son of Mine
                06. In the Cage
                05. Los Endos
                04. Blood on the Rooftops
                03. Dancing With the Moonlit Knight
                02. Firth of Fifth
                01. Dance on a Volcano​

                And my ranking of Genesis albums shows the same diversity:

                01) Trick of the Tail
                02) Wind and Wuthering
                03) Duke
                04) Selling England by the Pound
                05) Invisible Touch
                06) Foxtrot
                07) Abacab
                08) Genesis (1983)
                09) Nursery Cryme
                10) We Can't Dance
                11) Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
                12)...and Then There Were Three
                13) Tresspass
                14) Calling All Stations
                15) From Genesis to Revelation​

                Comment

                • RelayerI
                  Superyesfan
                  • Nov 2021
                  • 486

                  #38
                  Originally posted by luna65
                  I love it, I think it's wonderful, but....yeah, the two bands are so different to me that I don't know if I'd want to compare like that.
                  This.

                  Comment

                  • Olorin
                    Superyesfan
                    • Nov 2021
                    • 438

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Mr. Holland

                    I think a lot of our preferences have got to do with which was the music around when we were growing up. I think research shows that mostly the music you listen to between 12-18 years of age is what determines your preference and what sticks with you the rest of your life.

                    I was born in 1973 and really started to be interested in music around 1984. I also heard a lot of 80s Genesis on the radio, but I wasn't really aware of any Genesis before the 80s. The first Genesis albums I owned were Invisible Touch, Genesis 1983 and We Can't Dance. Actually, while I loved Genesis and I loved So by Peter Gabriel, I had no clue untill the beginning of the 90s that Gabriel had been the lead singer of Genesis (no internet around in these days and Peter never played any Genesis material in concert then). It was through "the Old Medley" during the "We Can't Dance" tour I discovered that and I started working my way backwards through their discography.

                    ​
                    I was born, well, quite a while before 1973 and first started getting interested in music in the late 1970s. The first Genesis album I ever heard was And Then There Were Three, and it holds a special place in my heart to this day. So yeah, the first music I got into is special, but really no more so than stuff I first get into much later...up through today.

                    Starting from And Then There Were Three, I worked my way forward as each new album came out, and when I heard the old medley on Three Sides Live, I started going backward. I think I knew, though, fairly early on, that Gabriel had been the original vocalist.

                    I've never done a full ranking of Genesis albums, let alone favorite songs, but I can say that I think the very best Genesis album is Selling England By The Pound. I like both Gabriel and Collins as lead vocalist. I think Gabriel's best performances as Genesis vocalist occur on Trespass, Selling England, and The Lamb. Those are the ones where I think he makes the most effective use of his unique vocal qualities. For Collins, I'd say Wind and Wuthering, And Then There Were Three, and maybe Duke. As Collins gained in confidence in his role as frontman, he also gained in cockiness and screaminess, and I think the quality of his vocals suffered.

                    Comment

                    • Oldie on the Goldie
                      Superyesfan
                      • Apr 2022
                      • 388

                      #40
                      Interesting discussion. I was born decades before the 70s but my first Genesis album was Duke. I liked it a lot so I bought Abacab when it came out, but soon regretted it. From then on I could not escape Collins' scratchy voice singing pop Genesis tunes on the radio. I only got into 70s Genesis later. I consider SEBTP their best album, with Gabriel, but also like W&W and TOTT (and Duke) with Collins. So my preferences do not reflect the music I listened to as a teenager.

                      Comment

                      • alex peters
                        Banned
                        • Nov 2021
                        • 1902

                        #41
                        The Genesis Live album is a classic. For me the Musical Box is a cut above Suppers

                        Comment

                        • Soundwaveseeker
                          Yes Master
                          • Nov 2021
                          • 1752

                          #42
                          Originally posted by alex peters
                          The Genesis Live album is a classic. For me the Musical Box is a cut above Suppers
                          Indeed, the live versions of Foxtrot/Nursery Cryme material is better than the studio versions. Genesis Live could have been double live set but the band didn't even really want to release a live album that early on because they didn't want two albums in a row with most of Foxtrot again. But they did release it as a single disc to counter bootlegs. It's a powerful live album and the material like Musical Box and Watcher Of The Skies comes off much better live, even if the sound quality is a bit unpolished and organic. But that's part of its charm.

                          Supper's Ready would have been on side three I assume, had it been released as a double. Not sure what would be on the last side or what would have been added to make a reshuffled double album - maybe Stagnation and Twilight Alehouse, possibly Can Utility. I believe they played it a little back then. Fountain Of Salmacis maybe?

                          Foxtrot material always came out better live.

                          Comment

                          • alex peters
                            Banned
                            • Nov 2021
                            • 1902

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Soundwaveseeker

                            Indeed, the live versions of Foxtrot/Nursery Cryme material is better than the studio versions. Genesis Live could have been double live set but the band didn't even really want to release a live album that early on because they didn't want two albums in a row with most of Foxtrot again. But they did release it as a single disc to counter bootlegs. It's a powerful live album and the material like Musical Box and Watcher Of The Skies comes off much better live, even if the sound quality is a bit unpolished and organic. But that's part of its charm.

                            Supper's Ready would have been on side three I assume, had it been released as a double. Not sure what would be on the last side or what would have been added to make a reshuffled double album - maybe Stagnation and Twilight Alehouse, possibly Can Utility. I believe they played it a little back then. Fountain Of Salmacis maybe?

                            Foxtrot material always came out better live.
                            Yes. Agreed. All the Genesis material comes across better live IMO. Especially the Peter Genesis.
                            Last edited by alex peters; 02-06-2023, 12:36 PM.

                            Comment

                            • alex peters
                              Banned
                              • Nov 2021
                              • 1902

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Soundwaveseeker

                              Indeed, the live versions of Foxtrot/Nursery Cryme material is better than the studio versions. Genesis Live could have been double live set but the band didn't even really want to release a live album that early on because they didn't want two albums in a row with most of Foxtrot again. But they did release it as a single disc to counter bootlegs. It's a powerful live album and the material like Musical Box and Watcher Of The Skies comes off much better live, even if the sound quality is a bit unpolished and organic. But that's part of its charm.

                              Supper's Ready would have been on side three I assume, had it been released as a double. Not sure what would be on the last side or what would have been added to make a reshuffled double album - maybe Stagnation and Twilight Alehouse, possibly Can Utility. I believe they played it a little back then. Fountain Of Salmacis maybe?

                              Foxtrot material always came out better live.
                              I will add the Genesis Live IMO is 1 of the greatest live albums ever. And yes the sound quality being a bit unpolished brings out the charm in this masterpiece .

                              Comment

                              • michelforest
                                Yes Master
                                • Nov 2021
                                • 538

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Soundwaveseeker

                                Indeed, the live versions of Foxtrot/Nursery Cryme material is better than the studio versions. Genesis Live could have been double live set but the band didn't even really want to release a live album that early on because they didn't want two albums in a row with most of Foxtrot again. But they did release it as a single disc to counter bootlegs. It's a powerful live album and the material like Musical Box and Watcher Of The Skies comes off much better live, even if the sound quality is a bit unpolished and organic. But that's part of its charm.

                                Supper's Ready would have been on side three I assume, had it been released as a double. Not sure what would be on the last side or what would have been added to make a reshuffled double album - maybe Stagnation and Twilight Alehouse, possibly Can Utility. I believe they played it a little back then. Fountain Of Salmacis maybe?

                                Foxtrot material always came out better live.
                                The album was recorded at two shows (Manchester and Leicester) during the Foxtrot tour, so it wasn't as if they had a stash of live recordings to choose from.

                                According to the setlist from both nights, the only track cut from the LP was Supper's Ready. They didn't play two hour shows at the time. The setlist was: Watcher-Musical Box-Get'em Out-Supper-Hogweed and The Knife.

                                So if you have a recording of the "test pressing" that can be found on the net, you have the full show.

                                As for "Stagnation", "Fountain of Salmacis" and "Can-Utily": Stagnation and Fountain were dropped quite early on. According to comments found in my book "Genesis: The Peter Gabriel Years", "Fountain" didn't go down well with audiences. As for "Can-Utility", it seems like they were never happy with the live version.
                                Last edited by michelforest; 02-06-2023, 07:17 PM.

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