Drama, and future events

[Chrisklenox]

While listening to Drama this morning, I started to wonder if Yes had NOT made Drama, would the band have regrouped in 2008 and continued beyond that as Yes?

I think that's not such a sure thing. With Drama , the band planted the seed of Yes without Jon being viable, and they "got away with it". The US tour was mostly successful, and though it ended in calamity, that was mostly due to Horn's voice failing by the time they hit the UK. The fact that the band featured Drama songs, sometimes playing the whole lp, in the post Jon era points to the fact that they were looking back to 1980 to sort of legitimize what they were doing. The first studio album from post 2004 of course centers around Drama leftovers, with Horn producing, and they even rerecorded that album again in 2018 with Horn singing. On stage and in the studio, the band has leaned on that bit of history from 1980 pretty heavily now. I think if the band had not released and toured Drama, that the band may not have thought continuing in 2008 as Yes was a real option.

Thoughts?

[Yesjim]

Yes I think you're on to something there...

Drama is the odd linchpin of the early catalog and displays the virtues of a Yes without Jon or Rick or...

The band with Jon attempted Tempus Fugit and Does It Really Happen several times while rehearsing for various tours even though both never made the setlist.
The fact that it became a focal point and centerpiece live in the post Anderson era is revealing, as if Steve, Chris and Alan had the material stashed away as a reference point for future purposes.

[Enlighten]

From my perspective, they could’ve stopped at Drama and it would have been a perfect run, kinda like Zeppelin’s run.

[Kenny]

IMHO Drama is a mixed bag. Tempus Fugit, Machine Messiah and Does it Really Happen were very good.

The rest was poor and should have been replaced by Fly From Here.

[downbyariver]

An interesting question. I tend to think they would have continued anyhow. What perhaps would have been called into question is whether or not they would have continued solely by performing old catalog songs like a tribute band, or if they would have continued as the vibrant group they are today that records new Yes albums while also playing the band's classic tunes.

Drama proved that they could make a world class Yes album without Jon Anderson. It may not have been recognized as such by the majority of fans at the time (Though I think it probably is now), but I think the people in the band at the time knew it, and there were fans who loved it and reminded them of it for decades to come. People apparently would ask them if they were going to ever play "Tempus Fugit" or "Machine Messiah" again at meet and greets in the Anderson era, and they'd have to deflect, but I think they made a note being asked about it. I also think Dream Theater opening up for them on a tour, asking permission to play "Machine Messiah", and then doing it, to rapturous applause from people there to see Yes, night after night, may have made an impact.

It's notable to me that when they went into the studio post-Anderson for the first time, they brought in Trevor Horn to produce and, eventually, Geoff Downes to play keyboards. It was basically the Drama lineup, plus Benoit David and with Horn in a different role, something that they sort of really drove home when they actually re-released the album with Horn on vocals as Fly From Here: Return Trip (The original FFH album with David was better IMO). A lot of the songs had Horn-Downes writing credits.

Some of that last paragraph may have been the result of happenstance- it was reportedly poor Oliver Wakeman who recommended they call Horn, only for Horn to throw him out of the group, essentially. Still, the first new stuff we saw from them (Unless you count live performances of "Aliens") after Jon Anderson left the band again (Or got thrown out- whatever) was from substantially the same bunch of people who had done Drama. I've actually seen some unsubstantiated claims that the three 70s Yes guys in the 2008-2014 iteration of the band had been trying to get Downes back as the keyboardist in the Anderson era when vacancies arose, and that Anderson had kept vetoing him, perhaps with Anderson feeling that Downes was part of the other faction in the band and validated an era of Yes he hadn't been in. So, while they didn't go right out and get Downes in 2008, and there is a different chain of events that led to him rejoining the band in 2011, it may have been a long time coming in a certain sense.

With all that said, the Chris Squire of that era seemed pretty into the idea of making new Yes music. It may have happened anyway. Apparently, the band had noted the success of Journey with a new lead singer, and that was said to be a factor in the decision to continue in general, at minimum.

It's hard to say how elements of a band's collective past and the individual pasts of the individuals come together to create the shape of the future.

However, I am very happy that Yes continues to exist and make new music at a time when many of their contemporaries that first made it big in the 70s and 80s, either no longer exist under the same band name, or are "zombie bands", essentially tributes to themselves that don't produce any new music as a unit. I would say Yes carrying on making new albums is part of the reason I prefer them to bands like Genesis, which didn't. They are important because they are Yes, but also because they are one of the last bands that are still carrying the flag for a lot of things- their era, some of the sub-genres they were in, making new music, etc..

I see them as very important (to me and to a certain type of fan), and I hope they continue with new albums on a regular basis long into the future. When I thought we may have lost them as a band actively putting out new studio albums somewhere between Heaven & Earth and The Quest, it was saddening and I was fast losing interest (Not due to the material- due to the lack of material). It was a big relief to get The Quest and then a couple years later, Mirror to the Sky. The new music is what makes me interested in the continuing adventures of Yes. If they just did the hits live and no new music in the studio, you'd probably eventually see me drop off this forum and anything like it, and stop knowing who was in the current band after personnel changes and so on and so forth. I'm interested because I want to hear that next album and add it to my collection- and then the one after that, and the one after that, and so on and so forth- and the lineup changes interest me because it tells me who is going to be writing and/or performing that new music on the albums. It's got this great continuity with all of this other great music I love from the same band from the last five decades or so- some music greater than other music, but there might only be one, or maybe no, Yes albums where I can't at least find at least a song or two I am happy to have in my collection.

[mcnpauls]

An interesting question. I tend to think they would have continued anyhow. What perhaps would have been called into question is whether or not they would have continued solely by performing old catalog songs like a tribute band, or if they would have continued as the vibrant group they are today that records new Yes albums while also playing the band's classic tunes.

Drama proved that they could make a world class Yes album without Jon Anderson. It may not have been recognized as such by the majority of fans at the time, but I think the people in the band at the time knew it, and there were fans who loved it and reminded them of it for decades to come. People apparently would ask them if they were going to ever play "Tempus Fugit" or "Machine Messiah" again at meet and greets in the Anderson era, and they'd have to deflect, but I think they made a note being asked about it. I also think Dream Theater opening up for them on a tour, asking permission to play "Machine Messiah", and then doing it, to rapturous applause from people there to see Yes, night after night, may have made an impact.

It's notable to me that when they went into the studio post-Anderson for the first time, they brought in Trevor Horn to produce and, eventually, Geoff Downes to play keyboards. It was basically the Drama lineup, plus Benoit David and with Horn in a different role, something that they sort of really drove home when they actually re-released the album with Horn on vocals as Fly From Here: Return Trip (The original FFH album with David was better IMO). A lot of the songs had Horn-Downes writing credits.

Some of that last paragraph may have been the result of happenstance- it was reportedly poor Oliver Wakeman who recommended they call Horn, only for Horn to throw him out of the group, essentially. Still, the first new stuff we saw from them (Unless you count live performances of "Aliens") after Jon Anderson left the band again (Or got thrown out- whatever) was from substantially the same bunch of people who had done Drama. I've actually seen some unsubstantiated claims that the three 70s Yes guys in the 2008-2014 iteration of the band had been trying to get Downes back as the keyboardist in the Anderson era when vacancies arose, and that Anderson had kept vetoing him, perhaps he feeling he was part of the other faction and validated an era of Yes he hadn't been in. So, while they didn't go right out and get Downes in 2008, and there is a different chain of events that led to him rejoining the band in 2011, it may have been a long time coming.

With all that said, the Chris Squire of that era seemed pretty into the idea of making new Yes music. It may have happened anyway. Apparently, the band had noted the success of Journey with a new lead singer, and that was said to be a factor in the decision to continue in general, at minimum.

It's hard to say how elements of a band's collective past and the individual pasts of the individuals come together to create the shape of the future.

However, I am very happy that Yes continues to exist and make new music at a time when many of their contemporaries that first made it big in the 70s and 80s, either no longer exist under the same band name, or are "zombie bands", essentially tributes to themselves that don't produce any new music as a unit. I would say Yes carrying on making new albums is part of the reason I prefer them to bands like Genesis, which didn't. They are important because they are Yes, but also because they are one of the last bands that are still carrying the flag for a lot of things- their era, some of the sub-genres they were in, making new music, etc..

I see them as very important (to me and to a certain type of fan), and I hope they continue with new albums on a regular basis long into the future. When I thought we may have lost them as a band actively putting out new studio albums somewhere between Heaven & Earth and The Quest, it was saddening and I was fast losing interest (Not due to the material- due to the lack of material). It was a big relief to get The Quest and then a couple years later, Mirror to the Sky. The new music is what makes me interested in the continuing adventures of Yes. If they just did the hits live and no new music in the studio, you'd probably eventually see me drop off this forum and anything like it, and stop knowing who was in the current band after personnel changes and so on and so forth. I'm interested because I want to hear that next album and add it to my collection- and then the one after that, and the one after that, and so on and so forth- and the lineup changes interest me because it tells me who is going to be writing and/or performing that new music on the albums. It's got this great continuity with all of this other great music I love from the same band from the last five decades or so- some music greater than others, but there might only be one, or maybe no, Yes albums where I can't at least find a song or two I am happy to have in my collection.

Great post!

[Olorin]

I think had they not made Drama and had broken up instead, as they did after Drama, they still would have gotten back together. In recent years, so many old bands have gotten back together, so the temptation would've been irresistible. The real question then would be, would the Rabin-led lineup and 90125 still have happened in the early 80s, or would Yes have lain dormant until more recent times? I really think Anderson would've reconvened some sort of lineup, even had he not been drawn into YesWest. Don't know why I think that, just guessing I suppose.

[PhaseDance]

I think had they not made Drama and had broken up instead ...

... would the Rabin-led lineup and 90125 still have happened in the early 80s ...

Rabin is obviously very talented, but would 90125 have had the same impact (i.e. been a massive success) without Horn's contributions? Horn was only connected and involved because of the Drama project.

Would Yes have faded into obscurity (or been relegated to nostalgia act status) right after 90125 if it had been just a modest success, or even a flop?

[Oldie on the Goldie]

IMHO Drama is a mixed bag. Tempus Fugit, Machine Messiah and Does it Really Happen were very good.

The rest was poor and should have been replaced by Fly From Here.

My sentiments exactly.

[Chrisklenox]

I think had they not made Drama and had broken up instead, as they did after Drama, they still would have gotten back together. In recent years, so many old bands have gotten back together, so the temptation would've been irresistible. The real question then would be, would the Rabin-led lineup and 90125 still have happened in the early 80s, or would Yes have lain dormant until more recent times? I really think Anderson would've reconvened some sort of lineup, even had he not been drawn into YesWest. Don't know why I think that, just guessing I suppose.

I was speaking particularly about what would have happened after 2004, but I feel like the Cinema thing would have absolutely happened either with or without Drama. The band would have been broken up in either 1979 or 1980, either way Rabin would be connecting with ex Yes members in both of those scenarios, and Jon would get roped back in either way as well.... or maybe not? What would Howe have been doing had he been "free" of Yes in 1979 rather than late 1980? That could mess with his timeline with Asia, and maybe that would have never happened resulting in HSW trying to regroup as Yes with Jon before Rabin was known to any of them.... it's fun to imagine the alternate possibilities around those transitional times in the band's history. That's basically every few years since 1969. Even the current "most stable" lineup has been different on each of the albums since Magnification by at least one member.

In your scenario, lets say 90125 was a Cinema album. No Jon, probably no Tony either since he was kind of brought in to make it more Yes-like and legitimate (boy, "legitimizing Yes" really has been going on for a while hasn't it? 1977 when they brought Rick back is probably the first time). So Cinema is Rabin, Squire, White, and maybe Jobson... 1985 or 1986 rolls around and Jon gets his Yes itch. What does his new version of Yes look like? ABWH with Levin on bass? That makes the most sense to me. Steve is out of Asia at that point. Bill is out of King Crimson, and would likely be keen to subsidize his Earthworks stuff, Wakeman would be into getting paid, and he likes the music anyway, and Bruford could pull in Levin. Almost seems like ABWH was inevitable, and it was just a matter of time.

From there? The timeline converges, and we get Union, but maybe a little earlier, like 1989. Does talk happen from there? Who is in the band for that?

Forgive the indulgence folks. Haha

[Chrisklenox]

Rabin is obviously very talented, but would 90125 have had the same impact (i.e. been a massive success) without Horn's contributions? Horn was only connected and involved because of the Drama project.

Would Yes have faded into obscurity (or been relegated to nostalgia act status) right after 90125 if it had been just a modest success, or even a flop?

Very good point... and it may well have flopped without him.

I think had it flopped, that would have been the outcome. Fade away, or nostalgia act. 90125 basically gave them a push that has sustained them ever since. It has been a double edged sword at times, but I think there's no way I would have seen Yes at Madison Square Garden in 2004 had they not had the success of 90125. That gig would have been at BB King Blues Club instead, if anywhere at all. I would argue that even to this day, Rabin and Horn are buttering the bread of every past and present member of Yes due to the massive exposure gained by 90125. That was a big splash with far reaching ripples even if they are weak ripples now in 2023. The two songs played at the Hall of Fame thing were Roundabout and Owner of a Lonely Heart, and I think that speaks volumes about the importance of 90125 and Fragile. Everything hinges on those two.

[Mr. Holland]

While listening to Drama this morning, I started to wonder if Yes had NOT made Drama, would the band have regrouped in 2008 and continued beyond that as Yes?

I think that's not such a sure thing. With Drama , the band planted the seed of Yes without Jon being viable, and they "got away with it". The US tour was mostly successful, and though it ended in calamity, that was mostly due to Horn's voice failing by the time they hit the UK. The fact that the band featured Drama songs, sometimes playing the whole lp, in the post Jon era points to the fact that they were looking back to 1980 to sort of legitimize what they were doing. The first studio album from post 2004 of course centers around Drama leftovers, with Horn producing, and they even rerecorded that album again in 2018 with Horn singing. On stage and in the studio, the band has leaned on that bit of history from 1980 pretty heavily now. I think if the band had not released and toured Drama, that the band may not have thought continuing in 2008 as Yes was a real option.

Thoughts?

I think 2008 would have happened anyway. And the reason is that for some in the band it was a necessity. Financially I mean. Yes had been inactive for about four years and for some that had ment fours years with little income, while costs of living had continued. Financial situations can be a very powerful motivation.

There was also a personal touch; the feeling of more or less having been held "hostage" by one who refused to do any activity for those four years and who vetoed every plan suggested in those four years. At some point you want to show "right ....., we'll show you, we don't need you".

Sure, the Drama stuff ment they had something to play that hadn't had Jon on it and gave them a bit of an angle (now for the first time in 30 years we can play this), but I'm confident the moving on without Jon in 2008 would have happened anyway.

[Mr. Holland]

Oké, the 90125 point, no Horn, is certainly an interesting one. But I think without that succes the "old" band would only have reunited sooner. We probably wouldn't have had ABWH in 1989, but say KTA would have moved about six years forward.

[michelle johnston]

There is no doubt in my mind that in the late winter at the beginning of the 1980 two quite separate movements occurred one was about coincidence and the other a new creative imperative.

1) When Yes reconvened at Redan having jettisoned the Paris Material they were determined to give Yes a spring clean and spoke openly in the lengthy interview they gave to Chris Welch of letting go of the floating heavenly style of Yes music that wasn't to quote Chris 'very current'. They rehearsed '10 pieces'. which had a 'Police like vibe.' This was going to be a heavier Yes which put the instrumental core of the band at the heart of the music and most important Chris was back driving and propelling the music. Later that thinking and approach spilled over into TF and a remodelled I am a Camera.' , the music which was rehearsed with Jimmy Page and riffs on pieces like "I am running." "Go Through This.' was another example. of music that came out of that spring cleaning. 'Does It Really Happen' was rehearsed with Patrick in the first quarter of 1976 but still got that treatment that comes over so strongly, in all those pieces driven bottom up by Alan and Chris.

JA was hanging on by the skin of his teeth had the money argument with Steve and left.

2) Brian Lane saw the tour, the Buggles were next door and out of the blue Trevor and Geoff were in but the furious momentum that produced Drama was an exercise in completer finishing. It was an inspired idea but separate from that artistic momentum began in January and February.

If Trevor and Geoff had not been there, auditions would have taken place, the tour postponed, and a new heavier Yes would have emerged. If that had worked Anderson and Wakeman, who has barely been in Yes since 1979, may have never come back together. The key would have been the vocalist but there was a strong desire to move away from an Anderson led band. He was kept at bay for BG and left. He was encouraged to work with Trevor on Talk to keep the robustness, current feeling on board.

In the end they never found another vocalist and Jon and Chris began writing together in 1995, but it was too late . They never developed any momentum Keys, OYE ,The Ladder and Magnification are all over the place. They all have merit but that sense of a band having natural reactive momentum, being confident in itself and ignoring voices was no longer there.

If there had been no Trevor and Geoff there would have something else to build on the Redan experience.

[Olorin]

Forgive the indulgence folks. Haha

No forgiveness necessary. Alternative histories are always interesting, and the one you just spun for Yes was particularly so, especially about ABWH being inevitable.That sounds a little bit like Thanos saying, "I am inevitable", but with a much more positive outcome, lol.