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Should 90125, Big Generator, and Talk be rebranded as Trevor Rabin albums?

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    #31
    So do you also feel the band that put out Yes is vastly different then the band that put out tales

    cause comparing the first album to tales one could make the same arguments

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      #32
      Originally posted by rabin105 View Post
      So do you also feel the band that put out Yes is vastly different then the band that put out tales

      cause comparing the first album to tales one could make the same arguments
      There is a progression from the first album to Close to the Edge/Tales/Relayer, and a regression from those albums to 1983-1987, so not the same argument. They scaled the heights, then chose to putter about in the lowlands, to extend a topographic metaphor.
      Sometimes the lights all shining on me, other times I can barely see.
      Lately it occurs to me what a long strange trip it’s been.

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        #33
        Nah

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          #34
          Using this logic then "Yes" only existed as a band from The Yes Album through Tormato/ are we going to exclude Tormato as well? Was Keys II & II "Yes"? What about Magnification and The Ladder? was that "Yes?
          We, as fans, can't dictate to a band what they should play. Yes, whoever they are, seems to manage to find listeners and concert attendees for this music you don't like.
          While one of my favorite bands, they have plenty of duds, filler, and cha cha cha cha cha. Fortunately, it's entirely up to you to determine if you want to eat at chez nous or not.

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            #35
            Originally posted by michelforest View Post
            I remember an exchange on the old Yesfans with Henry Potts about Yes' comeback in the 80's. Basically, my theory is that if Yes had recorded an album like Tales or Going for the One in 1983 they would have been laughed at by every major label in the world, not to mention most critics and the general public. Needless to say, the album would have flopped. Sure, they could have sold a few to the diehard fans (like me), but back then, prog was dead. The only band that sounded like prog was Marillion, the lineup with Fish, a band that, as a diehard Genesis fan, I looked down upon as a bunch of unimaginative Genesis wannabes. (I hear it got better with the other singer, but I never bothered to check.)
            Marillion were influenced by Genesis and their earliest work, like "Grendel", is perhaps rather derivative of Genesis, but I think Marillion had found their own voice by Fugazi, and Misplaced Childhood deserves its (UK and German) Platinum status. With Fish gone and Hogarth in, the band's sound evolved, and I think this new line-up has done great work too, like Afraid of Sunlight. Overall, I think to characterise Genesis as "a bunch of unimaginative Genesis wannabes" is to do them a disservice.

            But that's a tangential point. You're right that classic '70s prog would probably not have prospered if released in 1983. Marillion can be proggy, but their commercial success was on songs like "Kayleigh". I love "Kayleigh", great song, but it's a pretty straightforward pop song.

            So, were the musicians aiming for a more commercial sound? I think it's interesting that Asia were blindsided by their success, having to rapidly re-book shows on their debut tour in response to demand. They may have been aiming at something more commercial, but they weren't aiming for the level of commercial success they found. (They aimed low and shot high, perhaps.) Cinema/Yes, however, were responding to the success of Asia. They were very aware that Asia, including their recent band mates, had been a huge success, but they also saw themselves as more musically complex than Asia. We have reports that they looked down on Asia.

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              #36
              I think it's somewhat... confrontational to have this discussion in terms of "rebranding". The albums came out with those band names attached. What's really up for discussion is the nature of the continuities and the discontinuities from other Yes albums through to the YesWest albums or through to ABWH. What are they? What caused them? And I think we can equally ask those questions of other albums, like Fish Out of Water.

              All band names are a shared fiction. Yes didn't make any of these albums. Jon Anderson, Chris Squire, Alan White, Trevor Horn etc. made them. Anderson can't help but sound like himself, as Rabin can't help sound like himself. But one can also consider their intentions (to continue a style or do something different) and their influences, as well as who was leading within the activity.

              Some who want to contrast the YesWest albums with the '70s output seek to cast Rabin as the interloper and the scapegoat, but it's clear that the returning Yes members were also influential on the YesWest albums (to various degrees at various times) and that they were conscious of the choices made. 90125 is the album Squire and White wanted to make, but maybe one can ask if it is the album Anderson wanted to make? I'm less certain whether Talk is the album Squire and White wanted to make; I think possibly they just didn't care at that point!

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                #37
                Not any more than the post Steve Hackett Genesis albums should be called something different also. BG, 90125 and Talk were all still very much Yes albums and were not TR solo albums. Talk has been accused of being pretty close to a TR solo album but that could be an exagerration also.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by bondegezou View Post
                  So, were the musicians aiming for a more commercial sound? I think it's interesting that Asia were blindsided by their success, having to rapidly re-book shows on their debut tour in response to demand. They may have been aiming at something more commercial, but they weren't aiming for the level of commercial success they found. (They aimed low and shot high, perhaps.) Cinema/Yes, however, were responding to the success of Asia. They were very aware that Asia, including their recent band mates, had been a huge success, but they also saw themselves as more musically complex than Asia. We have reports that they looked down on Asia.
                  I wonder if we are not ignoring the pressure put on musicians by their record label. Weren't Squire and White still under contract to Atlantic when they joined up with Rabin? I know that Phil Carson from Atlantic paid for the early Cinema demos out of his own pocket and then got Atlantic to pay for the rest of the recording sessions. Once you're contractually obligated to a label, you'll be pressured to sound a certain way. As I wrote, the musicians in Cinema made the music they wanted to make, but they also knew the way the wind was blowing at that time and they wanted a hit album.

                  As for Asia, I remember very well when their first album came out (I was 16). My prog-loving friends and I were excited that an album with former members of Yes, ELP and King Crimson was on the way. (We were young and naive and didn't think that "supergroup" could be anything else but a good thing.) Anyway, I'll never forget the disappointment we felt when we heard "Heat of the Moment".

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by michelforest View Post

                    As for Asia, I remember very well when their first album came out (I was 16). My prog-loving friends and I were excited that an album with former members of Yes, ELP and King Crimson was on the way. (We were young and naive and didn't think that "supergroup" could be anything else but a good thing.) Anyway, I'll never forget the disappointment we felt when we heard "Heat of the Moment".
                    LOL, gawd yes!

                    Both Heat of the Moment AND that debut album were such a letdown. Some of the most EXCELLENT Prog musicians on the planet get together and make doo-doo generic pablum.

                    I mean, honestly, the music wasn't AWFUL, but it SEEMED that way when our expectations were so high.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by bondegezou View Post
                      All band names are a shared fiction. Yes didn't make any of these albums. Jon Anderson, Chris Squire, Alan White, Trevor Horn etc. made them. Anderson can't help but sound like himself, as Rabin can't help sound like himself. But one can also consider their intentions (to continue a style or do something different) and their influences, as well as who was leading within the activity.
                      The whole Ian Anderson/Jethro Tull thing of the last fifteen years is a great case in point: what's a Tull album? What's a Tull touring band? The most recent Tull album had more solo-ish parts than either TaaB 2 or Homo Erraticus, but those where Anderson solos…

                      More to the point, I still think of the incredibly prolific period for Jon Anderson from c. 1980 to, say, 1994: Jon and Vangelis, Song of Seven, Animation, 91025, 3 Ships, Big Generator, In the City of Angels, ABWH, Union, Talk, Deseo, Change We Must… And a whole lot of that did *not* sound like Yes. So I think "Yes" is something that can happen (verging into Fripp's definition of King Crimson territory here…) when people are in the room (virtual or real); sometimes one or more members may provide more direction, sometimes it's more equal and/or democratic. But almost all the band members have, for quite a while, had other avenues for their creativity, both writing and playing, so what they choose to bring to the Yes endeavour is just that, a choice. You may or may not like any particular choice, and that's fine, there are only so many — too few! — hours in the day to listen to the tunes, so you choose what you find most valuable, whether that's Relayer or "It Can Happen".

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by luna65 View Post
                        Absolutely not. All of them represent a vision beyond Trevor's contributions. They are what Yes (i.e. YesWest) embodied at the time.

                        I can understand not caring for Trevor as a musician and/or songwriter, but being so reductionist is an obvious prejudice, IMO. It's fine if you don't get it, don't like it, and it's an era which has been dead for some time and will not return. So no angst required.
                        Luna's got it right (of course). I still enjoy listening to 90125 and Talk, and Talk in particular sounds the most Yessy to me. Trevor's true solo projects sound very different that his Yes albums to me, so lumping all of that together doesn't make sense.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by pianozach View Post

                          LOL, gawd yes!

                          Both Heat of the Moment AND that debut album were such a letdown. Some of the most EXCELLENT Prog musicians on the planet get together and make doo-doo generic pablum.

                          I mean, honestly, the music wasn't AWFUL, but it SEEMED that way when our expectations were so high.
                          Yes, absolutely. That was I suppose the first collision between innocent naivete and harsh reality in my musical universe.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by pianozach View Post

                            LOL, gawd yes!

                            Both Heat of the Moment AND that debut album were such a letdown. Some of the most EXCELLENT Prog musicians on the planet get together and make doo-doo generic pablum.

                            I mean, honestly, the music wasn't AWFUL, but it SEEMED that way when our expectations were so high.
                            The first Asia album was such a letdown. I bought it of course ASAP but quickly wished I hadn't. I was disappointed in Steve's contributions but the real letdown was John Whetton. Then came the concert which I thought for sure would include some covers. My imagination went wild - they could play literally anything if they wanted to especially KC and ELP. But they didn't. The only highlights I remember are when Steve pulled out Leaves of Green, which brought tears to my eyes, and when they swapped instruments for one of the songs (don't remember which and that might be a fantasy).

                            I know they wanted to sell their album, but to me this was a HUGE missed opportunity to literally introduce folks to a large chunk of the history of prog music. Can you imagine Steve playing Red? I can.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by kkleinschmidt View Post
                              I know they wanted to sell their album, but to me this was a HUGE missed opportunity to literally introduce folks to a large chunk of the history of prog music. Can you imagine Steve playing Red? I can.
                              They ended playing a Crimson song when they reunited, but strangely, it was "Court of the Crimson King", a track Wetton didn't record and never played with KC. I always wondered why they picked that one instead of "Starless" or another one from the 1972-74 lineup.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by kkleinschmidt View Post

                                The first Asia album was such a letdown. I bought it of course ASAP but quickly wished I hadn't. I was disappointed in Steve's contributions but the real letdown was John Whetton. Then came the concert which I thought for sure would include some covers. My imagination went wild - they could play literally anything if they wanted to especially KC and ELP. But they didn't. The only highlights I remember are when Steve pulled out Leaves of Green, which brought tears to my eyes, and when they swapped instruments for one of the songs (don't remember which and that might be a fantasy).

                                I know they wanted to sell their album, but to me this was a HUGE missed opportunity to literally introduce folks to a large chunk of the history of prog music. Can you imagine Steve playing Red? I can.
                                Yes, Asia was obviously a commercial project. Let's not forget that Yes and ELP's last records were commercial duds, compared to their previous albums. I think the last major seller for Yes was Going for the One in 1977. They could still sell tickets, but in his autobiography, Howe mentions that around 1979-1980, they realized that they were not as rich as they thought they were. Back then, the real money was in record sales, not shows.

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