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What if Jon and Rick never left Yes

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    #46
    I think hippyshit got the better of Anderson, and Wakeman just wasn't in to it. I wasn't the only person in London who loved punk and Yes either... mohican leather-clad punks spitting were a bit of a media invention, most of the people at punk gigs still had flares, long hair and t-shirts. Tormato is pretty crap; Going for the One at least packed a bit of a punch, especially live, altho Awaken flagged up the OTT spaced-out direction Anderson was heading in... Drama is a great album, with some great guitar and bass and drums on though.

    Do people really really on creative chemistry? That's a bit like waiting for the muse or inspiration. A bit of elbow grease and application never goes amiss, and there wasn't a lot of work ethic around at the time, be that making/writing/creating new music or gigging.

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      #47
      I believe the AWBH was a great combination. A great album and tour. They immediately pivoted to Union that in my opinion was a mistake. Then the disaster of OYE and Talk.

      I would have loved another AWBH album and tour

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        #48
        Originally posted by The sage View Post
        The Paris sessions were demos- they needed a lot more work- which is evident when you listen to how polished Run Through the Light became on Drama, same with Everybodys song morphing into Does it Really Happen and even Some are Born sounds so much better on Songs of Seven... I must say Piscasso is a classic Anderson track in the vein of Wonderous Stories, Holy Lamb etc- Allan and Jon discuss it n YesYears and I would have loved it to have been resurrected for a subsequent album.. But the whimiscal lyrics evident on Circus of Heaven and Arriving UFO were also clearly present in these sessions which SHW mooted as uninspired. Whether Rick would have produced the types of Keys that Geoff did on Drama is debatable. Drama is for me right up there as one of the best Yes albums. I also think Tormato has a lot going for it- I believe it did have technical issues- dolby problems?? If the masters exist Id love to hear, not just a remix but a re-processing and perhaps a re-edit of tracks- extending some, shortening others etc....
        The Paris sessions were always a bit legendary in these circles until they got officially released on the Rhino editions of Tormato and Drama... then we found out!
        It's funny how things work out, as on the YesYears vid Rick is going "the band were basically unproduceable" and there is talk of roy thomas baker, but then lurking into the studio next to them was Trevor Horn and Hugh Padgham - I know Eddie Offord gets a credit but they almost accidentally lined up with the next decade's top producer/engineer. Drama sounds utterly fantastic, compare Alan's drums to those on Tormato (or in fact ANY album from the previous decade, they are up there with the Zep drum sounds and Geoff's keyboard sound like they have been faxed in from the future.

        So if had held on they could have had an anderson and wakeman lineup produced by trevor horn and engineered by hugh padgham. Which is a tantalising idea BUT ... at the time they didnt know Trevor Horn was who he was, so may not have had the sway over the project that he had whilst he was feverishly working alongside Fishy, Howe and White to get the record done (at a record pace! lots of erm, stimulants on that one)

        Time was sped up then, more than it is now. all this happened mere months after Tormato, and maybe the scale of days after the last tour. Again watching Get Back, you have to factor in the Beatles were in that studio in January 1969, just weeks after releasing the White Album, and after it all fell apart they went in, wrote and produced Abbey Road in the Summer. That is incredible when you think about it, no wonder they were burnt out and needed a break, the same for Yes in 1979.

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          #49
          Originally posted by alex peters View Post
          I believe the AWBH was a great combination. A great album and tour. They immediately pivoted to Union that in my opinion was a mistake. Then the disaster of OYE and Talk.

          I would have loved another AWBH album and tour
          To me, ABWH was a pleasant interlude, but I really missed Chris Squire, my favorite member of the band (musically, not personally, as I never met any member of Yes and never wanted to.) Tony Levin was an extraordinary substitute, but Chris had a way of playing and sounding that is irreplaceable.

          As for Union, from what I read, the situation was out of their control (or close to it). Arista bought Yeswest's contract from Atlantic. So it was Union or nothing.

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            #50
            Originally posted by madbear View Post
            Do people really really on creative chemistry? That's a bit like waiting for the muse or inspiration. A bit of elbow grease and application never goes amiss, and there wasn't a lot of work ethic around at the time, be that making/writing/creating new music or gigging.
            Well - yes and no, IMO. While at some point it's true that you just have to get on with it, if you're trying to create things with someone you don't want to work with then it's going to go wrong. Creativity takes a lot more energy than people realize because when it's easy it seems effortless. But when it's not you might as well be walking through quicksand during a hurricane. I think it was exhaustion all the way around, on every level. They had burnt themselves out both in terms of the pace and the dysfunction which had arisen.
            Rabin-esque
            my labor of love (and obsessive research)
            rabinesque.blogspot.com

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              #51
              Originally posted by luna65 View Post

              Well - yes and no, IMO. While at some point it's true that you just have to get on with it, if you're trying to create things with someone you don't want to work with then it's going to go wrong. Creativity takes a lot more energy than people realize because when it's easy it seems effortless. But when it's not you might as well be walking through quicksand during a hurricane. I think it was exhaustion all the way around, on every level. They had burnt themselves out both in terms of the pace and the dysfunction which had arisen.
              Amen to that. If you maybe had one designated leader or producer it would help settle arguments and decisions over mixing and content, but the democracy that steve howe describes as 'everyone at the mixing desk at once, trying to push their bit louder', and you can never get anything done once the mood sours, so the calvados flows and the green smoke billows...

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                #52
                Thanks to JMK, GG, Chris and the Sage for solving my question.

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                  #53
                  Again not an expert but was readin' Mike Oldfield's biography he talked about "many hands on the faders" because it was analogue production and had to be all done in real time. So not always a sign of too many cooks. Sometimes you just needed a lot of hands.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by Gilly Goodness View Post
                    Again not an expert but was readin' Mike Oldfield's biography he talked about "many hands on the faders" because it was analogue production and had to be all done in real time. So not always a sign of too many cooks. Sometimes you just needed a lot of hands.
                    for sure, we are certainly spoiled now, which you forget about. mix sessions must have been crazy back then (not to mention fraught!).. .in Oldfield's Five Miles out the inside of the gatefold is the track sheet for Taurus 2, which what each instrument is on each track.. i imagine them sweating knowing that the morris dancer track is going to turn to shakers in a few seconds

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                      #55
                      I can understand people disliking OYE, I too skip at least two songs, the Balcony and Wonderlove, but calling it a disaster is too much projecting IMHO. As for calling Talk a disaster is, well, shows lacking of being familiar with the music of Yes. But then it's required to find something wrong with every Yes album. If it's not Julie and Shirley, then it's Elias, or Horn, or Rabin, or Howe, or Anderson. By this logic we can have only a couple of albums that are not disasters.

                      To me the biggest Yes disappointment was Tormato. But a lot of people love it, so it can't be disaster either. Although, if the next album would have sounded like the Paris session. Now that, that would have been the disaster.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by pjt View Post
                        I can understand people disliking OYE, I too skip at least two songs, the Balcony and Wonderlove, but calling it a disaster is too much projecting IMHO. As for calling Talk a disaster is, well, shows lacking of being familiar with the music of Yes. But then it's required to find something wrong with every Yes album. If it's not Julie and Shirley, then it's Elias, or Horn, or Rabin, or Howe, or Anderson. By this logic we can have only a couple of albums that are not disasters.

                        To me the biggest Yes disappointment was Tormato. But a lot of people love it, so it can't be disaster either. Although, if the next album would have sounded like the Paris session. Now that, that would have been the disaster.
                        The reason I called OYE and Talk disasters is not because they did not have some quality songs on them but because the albums sold poorly and consequently the tours were not successes.

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                          #57
                          I'm sure it's already been said here, but Jon and and Rick were always going to leave, always going to come back, leave, again, come back.

                          Jon is a singer, and a principle writer. That is his prerogative, and many others like him over the course of history.

                          Rick needs to constantly make money, hence all his projects.

                          Now that wasn't the real answer to the question. The real question would be what if Alan had been a better roller skater, and not broken his leg?

                          A great track record, OBVIOUSLY, but bad karma then, with Roy Thomas Baker, and the way some of the boys work, I thought it would be a bit of a cluster buck on Heaven and Earth. Then perhaps they were out of time or money, and Roy, from what I had read, ended up doing very little. Perhaps too much old school technics with YES, and Roy. Sometimes you just need some yang, to go with your ying.

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                            #58
                            What if Rick never left Yes? Hahaha 😆 😂 😆

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by luvyesmusic View Post
                              I'm sure it's already been said here, but Jon and and Rick were always going to leave, always going to come back, leave, again, come back.

                              Jon is a singer, and a principle writer. That is his prerogative, and many others like him over the course of history.

                              Rick needs to constantly make money, hence all his projects.

                              Now that wasn't the real answer to the question. The real question would be what if Alan had been a better roller skater, and not broken his leg?

                              A great track record, OBVIOUSLY, but bad karma then, with Roy Thomas Baker, and the way some of the boys work, I thought it would be a bit of a cluster buck on Heaven and Earth. Then perhaps they were out of time or money, and Roy, from what I had read, ended up doing very little. Perhaps too much old school technics with YES, and Roy. Sometimes you just need some yang, to go with your ying.
                              I agree about Wakeman. Love him but after 1980 it was all $ when it came to Yes. He dropped out of the Keys tour in 1997 because he supposedly had a toothache but the real reason was the inability of his management to come to an agreement on a contract

                              In 2002 Yes had run out of gimmicks. The Ladder was a success but Igor was a Dog in heat and he had to go. Then the Masterworks and then the Symphonic tour. Attendance was in decline. So Yes had to look at Wakeman and make him an offer he could not refuse and they did.

                              Wakeman brought in an additional 3000 to 4000 folks to the Full Circle and 35th but then he had enough.

                              For Wakeman it is all about $. The ARW tours were all about $ to him. But that is ok. It is a business at the end of the day

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                                #60
                                Additionally about Wakeman in 2008 he said he could not participate in the Close and Back Tour because doctors had told him not to do it. So, if you believe that bullshit in his 50's Wakeman cannot do a 6 week tour in 2008 but 10 years later he has no problem touring the US. and Europe with ARW and in 2021 in his 70's he is begging for 1 more ARW Tour.

                                The reason Wakeman did not sign up for the 2008 Close and Back Tour was because there was no $ to pay him what he wanted as Anderson had negotiated the lions share of the bounty. So he recommended his son who would gladly take a fraction of what Daddy wanted.

                                One thing about all these Yesmen with the exception of a couple is in the past you have to take whatever they say with a grain of salt. This was a dysfunctional band.

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