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Q: Steve Howe has no "guitar heir"...Is Yes "done" after Steve's done?

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    #46
    Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post
    Just as an aside to your aside: Yes, Phil was a phenomenal drummer and a better drummer than a singer, but much better? I thought Collins was a great singer. I actually prefer live versions with him singing Gabriel era songs to their original counterpoints.
    Yes, Seconds Out and Three Sides Live are quite good on the older material.

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      #47
      Originally posted by Oldie on the Goldie View Post

      Arc of Yes?
      Yarc.

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        #48
        Like a lion floatin' in the ark


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          #49
          Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post

          Yes, Jon is three years older than Steve. Steve looks very healthy and things stay that way, then I think he will be doing this for 5 more years before he will call it a day. Jon will be 83 by then.
          My thinking exactly. Steve can then enjoy some years of retirement (whatever that means for him). --Cheers, Mike

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            #50
            Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post
            The Sports analogy doesn't hold up in my view. Because there is a difference. There are a lot of teams around the world playing basketball forinstance.. And whoever plays, whoever is in a team, the nature of the game remains largely unchanged. That is not the case with a band. Change enough players there and the nature of the band eventually changes.
            Since I started watching American football, the game has changed significantly. A lot of the great defenses I used to watch put together highlight reels of hits that would now earn them penalties, fines, and even suspensions under current rules. Fullback has gone from a standard position to being one only a few teams use, and only for select plays (Teams are more likely to feature a third WR or a second TE). Defenses now tend to feature smaller more agile linebackers (especially inside linebackers) because their primary job has shifted from smashing into large tailbacks going straight up the middle to chasing skinny run-first quarterbacks and defending on the run against short underneath passes.

            It used to be that quarterbacks would either have to call plays themselves in the huddle, or look to the sidelines for a coach to rely a play call with gestures. At some point, the NFL decided to put a speaker in the quarterback's helmet that allows the offensive coordinator to rely play calls directly into the quarterback's ear via radio frequencies between downs (One defensive player per team gets a similar helmet and hears from the defensive coordinator.), though the radio is shut off during the action itself. Stuff like instant replay has changed the game.

            Still, there's a ball, a field with 100 yards, 4 downs, touchdowns, field goals, etc..

            I would say that any band calling itself Yes is going to have a lead singer, a lead guitarist, a bass player, a keyboard player, and a drummer. They are going to play some of the same classic Yes songs. Yeah, there are new and exciting types of keyboards that come along, and not every player is going to play every instrument the same way, and so on and so forth, but at it's core it's the same thing.

            And I would say that drifts in available instrumentation, technology, and personel have always affected the band. One of the reasons Yes parted ways with Tony Kaye after only three albums is that at the time Kaye reportedly didn't want to use some newer keyboard technology and/or techniques, so the band replaced him with someone who did- Rick Wakeman (In later years, Kaye of course did start using the technology he had initially spurned). Right now, it's probably a requirement that the keyboardist be able to program and use iPads and laptops if he is the only keyboardist on stage.

            Drama and 90125 both introduced a significant amount of new technology and techniques, along with new styles and new personnel.

            That doesn't feel that different from the changes my favorite football team has undergone.

            Since 2016 those who have seen the band live have mostly watched Jon Davison, Billy Sherwood, Geoff Downes, Jay Schellen, and Steve Howe as Yes (With Alan White on a few songs at the end sometimes). If Howe retired and they added a high quality guitarist, put out a quality album that sounded like Yes, and then went out on tour playing Yes classics, it seems odd to think that somehow that would have suddenly stopped being Yes (Assuming they are allowed to keep the name, and I hope they are).
            Last edited by downbyariver; 06-16-2022, 09:57 PM.
            "A lot of the heavier conversations I was having with Chris toward the end were about his desire for this thing to go forward. He kept reiterating that to me. [...] He kept telling me, 'No matter what happens, Yes needs to continue moving forward and make great music. So promise me that that's something you want to do.'. And I have to keep making music. It's just what I do. [...] I'm a fan of the band and I want to see it thrive and that means new music." -Billy Sherwood

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              #51
              Originally posted by Somis Sound View Post
              Jimmy Haun is incredible, AND can handle the Rabin stuff better than Howe. I just hope it is not called "Yes".
              Good guitarist or not, I have no respect for the guy. He demonstrated his complete lack of ethics when he allowed his playing to be passed off as Howe's on Union.

              If he had officially replaced Howe on Union and played in his own style, I would have been open-minded about that (as I was with Rabin). But what he did has permanently stained him in my eyes as a hack and a forger.

              But to answer the question, I think a legitimate heir to Howe might have been an option, but I fear it is too late now.

              Could Davison or Sherwood take over Steve's parts?

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                #52
                Originally posted by Homemade Parachute View Post
                Yes, I'd rather hear almost anything from The Quest over Roundabout: let them be who they are, playing the music they want to. I'd much rather hear Sherwood's musical ideas than endless overly precise facsimiles of something from a generation or two ago. In that sense, I think it's been a mistake to focus so singularly on legacy material for the last decade, as it's that much harder now to work up material from FFH, H&E (which I'm not even that big a fan of, but still…) and now TQ as part of the repertoire. Say even a third of a concert run time could be for the material Jon, Billy, and Geoff hand a stronger hand in developing, including a couple from Drama and The Ladder.
                I fully agree

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by downbyariver View Post

                  Since I started watching American football, the game has changed significantly. A lot of the great defenses I used to watch put together highlight reels of hits that would now earn them penalties, fines, and even suspensions under current rules. Fullback has gone from a standard position to being one only a few teams use, and only for select plays (Teams are more likely to feature a third WR or a second TE). Defenses now tend to feature smaller more agile linebackers (especially inside linebackers) because their primary job has shifted from smashing into large tailbacks going straight up the middle to chasing skinny run-first quarterbacks and defending on the run against short underneath passes.

                  It used to be that quarterbacks would either have to call plays themselves in the huddle, or look to the sidelines for a coach to rely a play call with gestures. At some point, the NFL decided to put a speaker in the quarterback's helmet that allows the offensive coordinator to rely play calls directly into the quarterback's ear via radio frequencies between downs (One defensive player per team gets a similar helmet and hears from the defensive coordinator.), though the radio is shut off during the action itself. Stuff like instant replay has changed the game.

                  Still, there's a ball, a field with 100 yards, 4 downs, touchdowns, field goals, etc..

                  I would say that any band calling itself Yes is going to have a lead singer, a lead guitarist, a bass player, a keyboard player, and a drummer. They are going to play some of the same classic Yes songs. Yeah, there are new and exciting types of keyboards that come along, and not every player is going to play every instrument the same way, and so on and so forth, but at it's core it's the same thing.

                  And I would say that drifts in available instrumentation, technology, and personel have always affected the band. One of the reasons Yes parted ways with Tony Kaye after only three albums is that at the time Kaye reportedly didn't want to use some newer keyboard technology and/or techniques, so the band replaced him with someone who did- Rick Wakeman (In later years, Kaye of course did start using the technology he had initially spurned). Right now, it's probably a requirement that the keyboardist be able to program and use iPads and laptops if he is the only keyboardist on stage.

                  Drama and 90125 both introduced a significant amount of new technology and techniques, along with new styles and new personnel.

                  That doesn't feel that different from the changes my favorite football team has undergone.

                  Since 2016 those who have seen the band live have mostly watched Jon Davison, Billy Sherwood, Geoff Downes, Jay Schellen, and Steve Howe as Yes (With Alan White on a few songs at the end sometimes). If Howe retired and they added a high quality guitarist, put out a quality album that sounded like Yes, and then went out on tour playing Yes classics, it seems odd to think that somehow that would have suddenly stopped being Yes (Assuming they are allowed to keep the name, and I hope they are).
                  I just can't agree. And apparently I'm not doing a great job in explaining myself either 😉

                  I'm going to try again; a band in my view isn't merely about great musicians playing great and writing good songs. Many bands have a leadsinger, a bass player, a drummer, a keyboard player and a guitarist. They could also be playing Yes songs all night. That still doesn't make them Yes. Plenty of Yes tribute bands out there, but they are not and will never be actual Yes.

                  Because it's about character. The character of a band. That is what makes a band recognisable as that band. And some members have been key in forming the character of the band, much moreso than other members. If none of the key members that form(ed) the character of the band, then that particular character, that what makes that band, that band, is also gone IMO. As much as I love Sherwood, Davison and Schellen for what they do, they have not been key and are not key to the character, or if you will nature, of the band called Yes. Not even Downes has been key in that IMO.

                  So, when Steve call it quits, Yes will not be Yes anymore in my view. And I think a lot of fans will feel the same way, given there are quite a few fans that already without Jon and Chris feel that way now.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Somis Sound View Post
                    As far as the band now and into the future, just call it something else, ie "The Steve Howe Yes Experience" or whatever. I have no problem continuing to celebrate the magic music of Yes. But call a spade a spade... I agree regarding the food analogy. You have a "pizza" that once had homemade dough, zesty unique sauce, fresh cheese, fresh basil, and top shelf pepperoni. Now there is a cauliflower crust cheese pizza in the freezer at Walmart. It's still a pizza I guess, but not the same thing at all. Occasionally I can go for the frozen one, but it's just not even close. I am still waiting for the Relayer frozen pizza... LOL. Will it be like 1975? No. But will I enjoy it as much? No, but it will still be fun hearing mostly others perform my favorite album.
                    If they switched the name, tickets sales would plummet and touring would be much more limited. For many fans, calling it "The Steve Howe Yes Experience" would mean zero chance of seeing a show.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by YesWill View Post
                      Good guitarist or not, I have no respect for the guy. He demonstrated his complete lack of ethics when he allowed his playing to be passed off as Howe's on Union.

                      If he had officially replaced Howe on Union and played in his own style, I would have been open-minded about that (as I was with Rabin). But what he did has permanently stained him in my eyes as a hack and a forger.

                      But to answer the question, I think a legitimate heir to Howe might have been an option, but I fear it is too late now.

                      Could Davison or Sherwood take over Steve's parts?
                      Shouldn't your criticism of the ethics of the situation be aimed at those in charge of the process -- Anderson and Elias -- rather than the young guitarist who took a session job?

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by YesWill View Post

                        Good guitarist or not, I have no respect for the guy. He demonstrated his complete lack of ethics when he allowed his playing to be passed off as Howe's on Union.

                        If he had officially replaced Howe on Union and played in his own style, I would have been open-minded about that (as I was with Rabin). But what he did has permanently stained him in my eyes as a hack and a forger.

                        But to answer the question, I think a legitimate heir to Howe might have been an option, but I fear it is too late now.

                        Could Davison or Sherwood take over Steve's parts?
                        I keep reminding y’all that Arista is the label that gave us Milli Vanilli. If you listen to the SARM demos and Turbulence Haun’s playing is fairly faithful to Howe’s ideas. They wanted a more “commercial for pre grunge 1991” guitar tone. If Union were recorded today there would likely be no need for session musicians because you could cut, paste and manipulate the tracks any way you wanted with just a few mouse clicks. If you wanted Steve Howe sounding like Whitesnake or whatever you could probably get there. That wasn’t the case in 1991, but there was a tour booked, contracts signed, a hard deadline so gotta make some sausage.
                        Last edited by Frumious B; 06-17-2022, 02:03 AM.
                        “Well ain’t life grand when you finally hit it?”-David Lee Roth

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by bondegezou View Post

                          Shouldn't your criticism of the ethics of the situation be aimed at those in charge of the process -- Anderson and Elias -- rather than the young guitarist who took a session job?
                          Sure, Anderson and Elias deserve blame too, but that doesn't excuse Haun for going along with it. It's a question of professional ethics.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by YesWill View Post
                            I fully agree
                            Me three. Would way rather hear material from the last three albums with a few classics thrown in than the legacy material. And yes, they could get away with playing a lot more of the recent material and promoters and fans would still be happy.

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by YesWill View Post
                              Sure, Anderson and Elias deserve blame too, but that doesn't excuse Haun for going along with it. It's a question of professional ethics.
                              The producers of Union, among whom Howe is also included, were under a professional obligation to deliver an album in accordance with their contract, and that too can be seen as an ethical imperative. I don't blame anyone particularly for whatever occurred, since I wasn't in the room at the time, for taking the steps that were needed to complete the project. If certain parties opted to withdraw their participation, or chose not to complete their contractual obligations, then the producers were entirely within their rights to bring in others who could and would do so. How we might feel about the final outcome, the album, isn't really relevant. Buy it, don't buy it. Listen to it, don't listen to it. I rather like how most of it sounds, the ABWH tracks plus The More We Live, but that's just my personal take on it and means nothing. Haun did nothing ethically wrong as far as I'm concerned, and did not act unprofessionally.
                              Sometimes the lights all shining on me, other times I can barely see.
                              Lately it occurs to me what a long strange trip it’s been.

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by Ash Armstrong View Post

                                The producers of Union, among whom Howe is also included, were under a professional obligation to deliver an album in accordance with their contract, and that too can be seen as an ethical imperative...
                                Steve was producer only on his solo guitar piece Masquerade, one track of 14 on the album. He met his professional obligation to deliver a piece of music, and even got a Grammy nomination for his work. I think it is unfair to lump him into the corporate mess of the other 13 tracks.

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