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Taylor Hawkins is Dead at Age 50

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    #31
    Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post

    Then I'm sorry to say you're flying in the face of scientific research and evidence. You could just as well say you're just not a person who accepts the earth is round.
    A person chooses to pick up a bottle or a needle.

    A person does not choose to get cancer, MS, Alzheimer’s.

    A person can choose to put the bottle or the needle down. My opinion is - don’t enable this behavior, fight it, yell, scream, be brutally honest and look that person in the eye, and tell them to stop. Help them all you can. In the end. They must choose.


    and I’m not looking to be hurtful. This is an aweful thing for his family to have to endure. No less aweful than any one else losing a loved one. It’s terrible. It’s gutwrenching. It’s unimaginable for his children. My heart goes out to all of them.
    Last edited by Gtkgasman; 03-27-2022, 03:34 AM.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Gtkgasman View Post

      A person chooses to pick up a bottle or a needle.

      A person does not choose to get cancer, MS, Alzheimer’s.

      A person can choose to put the bottle or the needle down.


      and I’m not looking to be hurtful. This is an aweful thing for his family to have to endure. No less aweful than any one else losing a loved one. It’s terrible. It’s gutwrenching. It’s unimaginable for his children. My heart goes out to all of them.
      But that is exactly what science indicates; that addiction means someone doesn't have that choice. It's like saying someone suffering from depression has the choice to see things from the bright side. That is exactly what their disease makes them not able to do.

      Just wondering; is empathy or a lack thereof a choice?.....

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        #33
        Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post

        But that is exactly what science indicates; that addiction means someone doesn't have that choice. It's like saying someone suffering from depression has the choice to see things from the bright side. That is exactly what their disease makes them not able to do.

        Just wondering; is empathy or a lack thereof a choice?.....
        Yup. It is a choice. And I have plenty. Oh, i did edit
        my original post FYI. Not that we will agree. But didn’t want you to think I went back after the fact. That would not be fair in the discussion.

        I have plenty of empathy. I fight for and help people every day. I also push people to look in the mirror, own what you do, accept it, fix what you want, take responsibility if you want change. I’ll help you.

        Hell, a person can do whatever the heck they want. Be an alcoholic. Take drugs. Frankly it’s none of my business. Everyone to ones own.

        I should have kept my big mouth shut. I was angry. And yeah - angry at Taylor. And I still am. I see debilitating disease, first hand, of absolutely no choice to all of those who get it, every single day. I am hardened for sure.
        Last edited by Gtkgasman; 03-27-2022, 03:47 AM.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Gtkgasman View Post

          Yup. It is a choice. And I have plenty. Oh, i did edit
          my original post FYI. Not that we will agree. But didn’t want you to think I went back after the fact. That would not be fair in the discussion.

          I have plenty of empathy. I fight for and help people every day. I also push people to look in the mirror, own what you do, accept it, fix what you want, take responsibility if you want change. I’ll help you.

          Hell, a person can do whatever the heck they want. Be an alcoholic. Take drugs. Frankly it’s none of my business. Everyone to ones own.

          I should have kept my big mouth shut. I was angry. And yeah - angry at Taylor. And I still am. I see debilitating disease, first hand, of absolutely no choice to all of those who get it, every single day. I am hardened for sure.
          Again, there's enough scientific evidence that drug addiction is not a choice. There's even research that shows that addiction or at least being prone to addiction is genetically determined. Also drug use itself has neurological effects and alters brain paths. You could say that the first drink or the first shot is a choice (but then still some people are way more genetically prone to do so than others), but addiction certainly is not.

          To keep on saying addiction is a choice despite of this scientific evidence and that it's just an opinion is like saying the existence of gravity is a matter of opinion .

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            #35
            Originally posted by Mr. Holland View Post

            Again, there's enough scientific evidence that drug addiction is not a choice. There's even research that shows that addiction or at least being prone to addiction is genetically determined. Also drug use itself has neurological effects and alters brain paths. You could say that the first drink or the first shot is a choice (but then still some people are way more genetically prone to do so than others), but addiction certainly is not.

            To keep on saying addiction is a choice despite of this scientific evidence and that it's just an opinion is like saying the existence of gravity is a matter of opinion .
            Not ‘an’ opinion. It’s ‘my’ opinion. Wrong or right. He was being selfish and irresponsible (and he had all of the resources in the entire world at his disposal to help him) and that makes me angry and sad for his children.

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              #36
              Actually, you're both right.

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                #37
                Originally posted by Gtkgasman View Post

                Not ‘an’ opinion. It’s ‘my’ opinion. Wrong or right. He was being selfish and irresponsible (and he had all of the resources in the entire world at his disposal to help him) and that makes me angry and sad for his children.
                I find it hard to phantom that thought process. In the same way I always am surprised when people get mad when someone who suffers from depression comits suicide. "They could have made another choice, they could've seeked help" etc. It shows a complete lack IMO of understanding how a disease like depression works, of the neurological, physiological effects it actually has. And the same goes for addiction.

                And you can have "your" opinion on lots of stuff, but not on scientific facts. Facts are called facts for a reason. Facts aren't debatable, that's what makes a fact a fact. You can't for instance have an opinion on whether Chris Squire was the bass player for a band called Yes. He was. It's not a matter of opinion.

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                  #38
                  Sad news. RIP. I know he had connections to Yes (and also Rush too if I'm not mistaken). Most on here know about his friendship with Jon Davison and how he was instrumental in getting Jon noticed by the band.

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                    #39
                    I think you can recognize the disease of addiction without completely denying all agency and responsibility on the part of the addict. There are plenty of choices that can be made about what kind of help and treatment one can seek for addiction, especially if one has access to the kind of financial resources that a high profile rock musician like Hawkins had.
                    “Well ain’t life grand when you finally hit it?”-David Lee Roth

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                      #40
                      His resources helped him get those substances. I doubt he brought them across international borders while on tour. I think somebody in the band's inner circle is complicit in enabling his behavior by procuring whatever he wanted no matter where the band is. Highly doubtful Hawkins was on the street himself buying from local dealers.. This is a similar story to the death of an American baseball player who got drugs from a member of the team's staff. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ty/6832964001/

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Ash Armstrong View Post
                        It's only been a day folks. Can we not try to keep it at least respectful, and keep the personal, and potentially hurtful and harmful opinions, for another time and another thread?
                        Exactly.
                        Rabin-esque
                        my labor of love (and obsessive research)
                        rabinesque.blogspot.com

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                          #42


                          This is, as far as I know, the only released song with co-writing credits from Davison and Hawkins (and multiple others, including Grohl).

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                            #43
                            Out of respect I feel we should take a break from all this speculation before delivering the 'drugs are bad and it was his choice' sermons. No one knows the actual facts yet. What I see is "The cause of death has yet to be established" and "drug use has not been confirmed yet." That article reeks of sensationalism, "...had 10 substances in his bloodstream..."

                            It should be noted that proper toxicology results take 4 to 6 weeks. Have a look at this for reference -

                            "Four to six weeks is pretty standard," Magnani says of the time line for forensic toxicology testing. Besides the time needed for painstaking analysis and confirmation, she says, there could be a backlog of tests that need to be done at a particular laboratory.

                            https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...cology-tests#1

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                              #44
                              RIP Taylor, and peace and love to his family, friends and fans. The force of Rock and Roll was strong in you and will be missed.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by Yesjim View Post
                                Out of respect I feel we should take a break from all this speculation before delivering the 'drugs are bad and it was his choice' sermons. No one knows the actual facts yet. What I see is "The cause of death has yet to be established" and "drug use has not been confirmed yet." That article reeks of sensationalism, "...had 10 substances in his bloodstream..."

                                It should be noted that proper toxicology results take 4 to 6 weeks.
                                The other thing I noticed was that of the four substances actually listed, three are things that are legally prescribed by legitimate doctors for physical and psychological conditions. Are we sure a guy who's spent 50 years pounding drums on a sometimes nightly basis as hard as Taylor did might not be taking some legitimately prescribed pain medicine for various injuries that never quite heal (an opioid, perhaps)? A lot of benzodiazepines are prescribed for anxiety- Klonopin and Xanax are two examples of medicines that fall into that category- so that may be legitimate, too. The article also mentions antidepressants, which often means SSRIs like Zoloft- something no one takes recreationally.

                                The one substance of the four on the list of things they say they found in his bloodstream that has no proven medical use is THC, which is the drug component of marijuana, and actually in some states that too can be obtained with a doctor's recommendation (When I say it has no proven medical use, I mean there are a lack of research studies on the subject, because in the United States any research university that has federal funding and wants to keep it has heavy restrictions on the circumstances under which they can use marijuana in studies, so there haven't been the typical trials that drugs go through leading up to FDA approval. In other words, it may well work for medical purposes, there just isn't the usual trail of lab studies medicines normally have because of legal issues related to this particular substance, so we don't know for sure.) and is legal for recreational use in others.

                                They also found a single empty can of beer in his room and a bottle of vodka with vodka still in it.

                                Now, am I saying he didn't die of an overdose or a drug interaction? No. I have no idea. I wasn't there. I would guess that there are quite a few people in this world who we would find 10 restricted substances in the bloodstream of who are legally being prescribed some or all of them for medical purposes, though. I would bet that some portion of those people drink a beer every once in a while, too, even if it is technically counter-indicated.

                                Honestly, I look at that stuff and I think even odds this was suicide. Maybe he was someone living with a lot of physical pain, who also struggled with depression and anxiety.

                                I also think a cardiac event like a heart attack is not out of the question. He's a male age 50, which is right in the normal range for something like that, and though he is physically fit, playing the drums for a few hours to hard rock songs is quite a workout and a strain on the heart (In the long run, it may make your heart stronger, but in the short run, it raises your risk of a heart attack in the moment- think of all the people who die during or right after they go jogging). How long had it been since his last tour? Was this the Foo Fighters' first tour after a pandemic-related hiatus? Maybe his body wasn't used to it anymore.

                                His history of drug abuse also ups his odds for dying from damage that may have been done years before even if he currently wasn't actively using.

                                Finally, I would just like to join the chorus of people here saying that addiction is itself a medical condition and blaming the victim strikes me as inaccurate and inappropriate. No offense intended to the guy who's taking the contrary point of view. I just think it's pretty clear that some people literally can't help themselves, and it's not their fault. Plus, you know, it's not like he didn't just pay the ultimate price regardless of whether or not blame is appropriate.

                                I see no reason not to treat this just like any other death. It's sad, it's unexpected, I wish the person had a chance to live some more years, and my heart goes out to his family, friends, co-workers, and fans. The how and why he died is secondary to the simple fact that he did die, and it's sad no matter how it happened.
                                Last edited by downbyariver; 03-27-2022, 10:18 PM.
                                "A lot of the heavier conversations I was having with Chris toward the end were about his desire for this thing to go forward. He kept reiterating that to me. [...] He kept telling me, 'No matter what happens, Yes needs to continue moving forward and make great music. So promise me that that's something you want to do.'. And I have to keep making music. It's just what I do. [...] I'm a fan of the band and I want to see it thrive and that means new music." -Billy Sherwood

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