ABWH 2 or Union?

[soundchaser09]

Which would you have preferred, the way things turned with Union, or the continuation of ABWH after 1990, with Yes Official carrying on with Sherwood, Squire and Rabin on vocals? A fascinating time in the history of this band and the last time they were big commercially.

[Mr. Holland]

Such great memories of the Union tour/show. Wouldn't have missed that for the world and certainly not for ABWH 2, which seemed to be going nowhere judging from some of the demos.

[Homemade Parachute]

Can I vote both ways? On the one hand, I actually kind of like Union as is, and while I don't think it moved the Yes ball forward anywhere, I don't know what would have at that point. Clearly, the ABWH 2 sessions were, well, uninspired at least, which I've always found puzzling: I thought ABWH was firing on all cylinders, with Bruford particularly engaged, and what I've never understood to this day is how, Howe and Wakeman aside, they got as far as they did with Bruford and Levin providing the rhythm to clearly unfinished work (yet finished enough that no subs were required at the pick up recording and mixing stages), and what they were working towards. No multipart semi-epics to match "Themes", "Brother", "Quartet", or "Order"… The arc of ABWH seemed to be returning to a Close to the Edge vibe, or at least bringing that into the late 80s, and to my ears was really quite successful. But it seems like the next step was never figured out, and what they ended up with was, if anything, a return to a Big Generator sound. (That the next step for three of ABWH was K2A which doubled down on the 70s vibe seems to reinforce this, so in my playlists K2A feels like a more natural follow up to ABWH.)

(And parenthetically, I don't think the Sherwood-led Yes would have gotten very far, but neither would a quartet (or trio) of Rabin, Squire, White (and maybe Kaye), which I think would have been a Trevor Rabin solo album with backing band. Rabin's too strong a frontman to carry Yes without some balance, like Anderson or Horn, or at least add some odder touches to his lyrical conceits.)

But on the other hand, I'd really like to know just what ABWH 2 might have sounded like, had they actually figured out what they were doing. I don't know how long Bruford would have lasted anyways, but would they have gotten to K2A, or something like it, earlier? Or did they need to flounder a bit more to get back to that feeling? Given where Bruford and Levin ended up next, it's intriguing to think of what might have been, had they been able to divert that energy elsewhere…

[Gilly Goodness]

Was Dialogue demos ABWH2 adjacent? My JonBox had a whole album of Minor key Jonsongs (+ many polystyrene prayer squares.) Dark. Moody. I always wondered if it had to do with his divorce from Jenny? Like Phil Collins bein' inspired to do Face Value after the decorator ran off with his wife.

My theory is Jon prefers to live in the inspirin' sunlit uplands rather than the bruised, hurt semi-confessional world. The songs on Dialogue were good though.

Obviously Bruford and Levin were simpatico. Jon and Steve may have found writin' together too hard. The first ABWH was Jon takin' songs from Steve remotely and addin' his magic dust over them.

ABWH > Union. In the end.

[Soundwaveseeker]

I'll go for both. I like this scenario: Yes puts out a new album in late 1990 with Squire/Rabin/Sherwood/Kaye/White and features stuff like Say Goodbye, Love Conquers All, and The More We Live as well as Lift Me Up, Miracle Of Life, etc. Anderson is not replaced. Lead vocals are covered by Squire, Sherwood and Rabin on various tracks, sometimes joint lead vocal moments and all or most members provide backing vocals. ABWH puts out their second album in early 1991 and features the long version of Take The Water To The Mountain in addition to non-tampered with material that made up the bulk of the Union album. The two bands do not tour separately, but join forces for the Union Tour 1991-1992, playing classic material from 1971-1987 and some material from the 1990 Yes album and the ABWH II album. From these, Lift Me Up, Shock To The System, Say Goodbye and I Would Have Waited Forever (with synth intro) are performed. After the tour, it pretty much goes back to have we had it for the rest of the 90's. That scenario would have been very interesting.

As soon as someone invents the Alternative Reality machine, I'm gonna jack around with the timelines. Yes is unsafe in my hands.

[madbear]

Neither thank you.

[Old Frothingslosh]

Really enjoyed ABWH album (still do) and Tour. In a perfect world ABWW2 comes out along with a YesWest album and the Union Tour with no dreadful combined album bets bumped back a year or two

[soundchaser09]

I think for me I doubt the strength of the Second ABWH record, so I voted for Union, but given time maybe they would have polished up their ideas. An album with Rabin-Squire-Sherwood-Kaye-White would have been interesting too. Still, I'm a bigger fan of Union than most here.

[Frumious B]

i voted for Union. The earlier versions of the ABWH2 tracks actually aren’t “night and day” far removed from the ABWH demos despite the session players.

This boot has slightly better sound for the Union Arista promo cassette tracks, which has some interesting variations from the final album: http://forgotten-yesterdays.com/down...downloadid=971

I think this is the best sounding ABWH 1990 SARM demos: http://forgotten-yesterdays.com/down...downloadid=943

[bondegezou]

Can I vote both ways? On the one hand, I actually kind of like Union as is, and while I don't think it moved the Yes ball forward anywhere, I don't know what would have at that point. Clearly, the ABWH 2 sessions were, well, uninspired at least, which I've always found puzzling: I thought ABWH was firing on all cylinders, with Bruford particularly engaged, and what I've never understood to this day is how, Howe and Wakeman aside, they got as far as they did with Bruford and Levin providing the rhythm to clearly unfinished work (yet finished enough that no subs were required at the pick up recording and mixing stages), and what they were working towards. No multipart semi-epics to match "Themes", "Brother", "Quartet", or "Order"… The arc of ABWH seemed to be returning to a Close to the Edge vibe, or at least bringing that into the late 80s, and to my ears was really quite successful. But it seems like the next step was never figured out, and what they ended up with was, if anything, a return to a Big Generator sound. (That the next step for three of ABWH was K2A which doubled down on the 70s vibe seems to reinforce this, so in my playlists K2A feels like a more natural follow up to ABWH.)

(And parenthetically, I don't think the Sherwood-led Yes would have gotten very far, but neither would a quartet (or trio) of Rabin, Squire, White (and maybe Kaye), which I think would have been a Trevor Rabin solo album with backing band. Rabin's too strong a frontman to carry Yes without some balance, like Anderson or Horn, or at least add some odder touches to his lyrical conceits.)

But on the other hand, I'd really like to know just what ABWH 2 might have sounded like, had they actually figured out what they were doing. I don't know how long Bruford would have lasted anyways, but would they have gotten to K2A, or something like it, earlier? Or did they need to flounder a bit more to get back to that feeling? Given where Bruford and Levin ended up next, it's intriguing to think of what might have been, had they been able to divert that energy elsewhere…

I think there was inspiration in the ABWH2 sessions, but there was a breakdown in the relationships within the band, specifically between Anderson and Howe. Anderson had ideas, which were good and had potential (see Watching the Flags that Fly). Howe had ideas, which were good and had potential (see the "backing tracks" on Anthology 2). Howe has also referred to productive early sessions with Bruford and Levin that we've never heard. But they weren't talking to each other, so what we got was Anderson's vision with Howe/Wakeman shut out.

[Homemade Parachute]

I think there was inspiration in the ABWH2 sessions, but there was a breakdown in the relationships within the band, specifically between Anderson and Howe. Anderson had ideas, which were good and had potential (see Watching the Flags that Fly). Howe had ideas, which were good and had potential (see the "backing tracks" on Anthology 2). Howe has also referred to productive early sessions with Bruford and Levin that we've never heard. But they weren't talking to each other, so what we got was Anderson's vision with Howe/Wakeman shut out.

Total guesswork/speculation on my part here, but as far as the tracks that did get put on Union go, what's your sense of the Bruford/Levin contributions? Demos, or as "finished" as they would have been, even on an album to actually featured Howe and Wakeman? I guess I just find that aspect of the album and its compositional history really interesting and/or weird, as the songs must have had a compositional framework strong enough to be worth their time to record, and not require the same kind of replacements as for guitars/keys later… Maybe they were more heavily manipulated or edited than it seems, but somehow they got to roughly 40 minutes of material deemed final or worthy enough to get the rhythm section in on it (and doing, in a couple cases at least, some pretty good work), and then… faltered? Stalled out? Kind of like Big Generator II, as far as the process for nailing down a drum/bass combo before figuring out the rest? Or maybe B/L were noodling around more, kind of like the Torn/Levin/White album, and they used bits and pieces there to build the songs? I don't know, I don't know… A curious album that still has us talking thirty plus years later.

[bondegezou]

Total guesswork/speculation on my part here, but as far as the tracks that did get put on Union go, what's your sense of the Bruford/Levin contributions? Demos, or as "finished" as they would have been, even on an album to actually featured Howe and Wakeman? I guess I just find that aspect of the album and its compositional history really interesting and/or weird, as the songs must have had a compositional framework strong enough to be worth their time to record, and not require the same kind of replacements as for guitars/keys later… Maybe they were more heavily manipulated or edited than it seems, but somehow they got to roughly 40 minutes of material deemed final or worthy enough to get the rhythm section in on it (and doing, in a couple cases at least, some pretty good work), and then… faltered? Stalled out? Kind of like Big Generator II, as far as the process for nailing down a drum/bass combo before figuring out the rest? Or maybe B/L were noodling around more, kind of like the Torn/Levin/White album, and they used bits and pieces there to build the songs? I don't know, I don't know… A curious album that still has us talking thirty plus years later.

I'm uncertain how much Bruford/Levin are playing on the final ABWH tracks on Union. I suspect Levin ultimately treated it as just another session and if Elias/Anderson said, "Play this", he played this.

Rhythm parts are generally recorded first. Descriptions of the sessions by people like Michael Sherwood don't mention Bruford/Levin being present. Maybe Bruford/Levin recorded their parts, and then Elias/Anderson built on top of those, editing them as required.

[rabin105]

Union though I would of liked an album with Sherwood on lead vocals in 89 I do like what happened post union a lot (talk keys 2 etc)


really I would of liked an actual union with Rick and Steve playing on some songs Rabin playing on the abwh stuff instead of Haun and maybe a guitar duet between Rabin and Howe

[Homemade Parachute]

Rhythm parts are generally recorded first. Descriptions of the sessions by people like Michael Sherwood don't mention Bruford/Levin being present. Maybe Bruford/Levin recorded their parts, and then Elias/Anderson built on top of those, editing them as required.

That's kind of my guess as well, and maybe why I find the process here so weird: if Bruford and Levin recorded first, as is often normal, they must have had enough of a structure to kind of "lock in" the songs, or edit them heavily afterwards, and as Bruford didn't contribute a lot of writing to Union (as far as the stated credits go, at least…), it must show Anderson & Howe's influence. While I certainly don't want to project into Bruford's headspace, I don't see a lot in Union that would interest *him*, compared to both ABWH itself and then THRAK a couple years later. But who knows? "Holding On", "Evensong", even "Take the Water…" *do* seem like interesting-to-Bruford songs (which could be a hell of a genre/playlist).

[josuev80]

Well Billy is a yeswest member by extension remember there is a full album with him on lead vocals and yes west as the band

Union though I would of liked an album with Sherwood on lead vocals in 89 I do like what happened post union a lot (talk keys 2 etc)


really I would of liked an actual union with Rick and Steve playing on some songs Rabin playing on the abwh stuff instead of Haun and maybe a guitar duet between Rabin and Howe

Good to see you backed off the nonsense of a full Yes Sherwood album from the late 80s/early 90s.