View Poll Results: Tormato or The Ladder?

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  • Tormato

    40 72.73%
  • The Ladder

    15 27.27%
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Thread: Tormato vs The Ladder

  1. #1
    Mega Yesfan Yessiree's Avatar
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    Tormato vs The Ladder

    I've been a long-time fan of Tormato. But I know there wide opinions of it relating to the material and/or the production quality. Originally I didn't like The Ladder, but that album has grown and grown on me; now I really enjoy most of it. But again, The Ladder generates a wide range of opinions. I'm curious to pit these two against each other with Yes fans to see what people think of them. They are no doubt very different and from two different times, but largely the same cast, and there are some interesting similarities. Which do you prefer (as is)?





  2. #2
    Polishing the mirror Enlighten's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    This one isn’t even close for me. The Ladder represents a Yes trying to straddle the world’s of both prog and pop and still fishing for that elusive hit single parasite that it couldn’t seem to shake after they “hit” with 90125. Tormato has OTSWF, Future Times/Rejoice and Onward, all classic examples of what made Yes great for ten true summers. Tormato by a landslide.

  3. #3
    ˙ƃuoɹʍ ǝuoƃ ʎlɹɐǝlɔ sɐɥ ƃuᴉɥʇǝɯos relayerone's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Tormato x 10.
    "I used to listen to Yes.
    I still do, but I used to, too."

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  4. #4
    The said Remark Ceasar's Palace's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Tormato, but it’s close. The Ladder is my favourite ‘modern’ Yes album.

  5. #5
    dreamland crotale2112's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    tough one... I'm for Tormato because of Future times, arriving ufo and madrigal.... 3 of some of my favorite Yessongs of all time, and I like the rest of the album too... however The Ladder is a great album with great band energy.... I love Igor and Billy's work on it and it has a great vibe.

    a tough poll...

    still undefined

  6. #6
    Insane Yesfan robusan's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    The Ladder is my least favorite YES album. I love Tormato.
    "All humans are sacred, whatever their culture, race, or religion, whatever their capacities or incapacities, and whatever their weaknesses or strengths may be. Each of us has an instrument to bring to the vast orchestra of humanity." - Jean Vanier


  7. #7
    Yes Old Fart Chris2210's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Enlighten View Post
    This one isn’t even close for me. The Ladder represents a Yes trying to straddle the world’s of both prog and pop and still fishing for that elusive hit single parasite that it couldn’t seem to shake after they “hit” with 90125. Tormato has OTSWF, Future Times/Rejoice and Onward, all classic examples of what made Yes great for ten true summers. Tormato by a landslide.
    Saved me a job and others the ordeal of something I would have expressed more verbosely.

    Edit - I have to add that I think Arriving UFO is one of the most underrated numbers in the Yes catalogue. It has hokey moments, but bits of it - particularly the peroration - are the band at the absolute pinnacle of their powers and musical imagination.

  8. #8
    Yes-East-West-Fan
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Tormato, no question... the wallflower-Album of Yes... and it grows and grows. It is refreshingly raw on the surface, but almost fragile and rich inside. Future Times and Silent Wings are dense mini-epics with intricate power. Arriving U.F.O is one of the coolest Yessongs, with its comic-strip-like sci-fi-atmosphre... and a masterwork of Musical wit and a Grand guitar-and-keybord-clash. Those are the three central pieces, but the rest is wonderful as well, the elegant Madrigal, the steely-dan-ish Don't Kill The Way or Release, Release... which they were too cowardish I believe to really heavy-rock on stage. I like even the atmospheric Circus Of Heaven minus the Damian-part. Onward is the tightrope-ride of a romantic love-ballad without any kitsch.

    Oh, yes, an Tormato offers the third best Yes-albumcover after Talk and CTTE.. I wish they had shown more also of such wit...

    The Ladder I think though still has Quality, it has Character, it is the Sgt.Pepper Of Yes with its variety of styles. We get sophistcated Beach Boy-Pop (The River), Rock 'n' Roll (Face to Tace), Reggae (The Messenger), Calypso (Lightning) and even some Kind of Blues (Finally) and one great Yes-mini-epic with New Language. Only the cheesy clishee-prog of Homeworld disappoints.

    I'd love to hear The River and New Language on stage now.
    Last edited by PeterCologne; 02-28-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Is this some kind of sick joke? Tonto Goldstein's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    I could not take it oh so seriously really when you posted this thread topic. My brother Enlighten said it very well. However, Chris wins YesFans.com today for the use of the word "peroration". A brilliant display of your erudition.
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  10. #10
    Dog Faced Boy Yorkshire Square's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    The Ladder is a cracking album. A modern take on the 70s canon without being too derivative. Some of Jon's better latter day lyrics. It was a shame that that line-up disintegrated and led to creative limbo that was Magnification and the subsequent lack of new material.

    However Tormato, despite the nature of its conception, is always in my top five albums. The excesses of Jon and Rick, manifest in the Paris Sessions were nicely offset by the beefier playing of Alan and Chris later also evident on Drama.

    So, Tormato, but not by much.

  11. #11
    Dog Faced Boy Yorkshire Square's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonto Goldstein View Post
    However, Chris wins YesFans.com today for the use of the word "peroration".
    Isn't that what can happen to your appendix?

  12. #12
    SR Super Yesfan downbyariver's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    This is an interesting one for me, because both of these albums are in my bottom 25% of Yes albums (Normally, these comparisons are tough because it's two of my favorite albums going head to head, but that isn't the case here).

    I've had to mull this over, and I think I would go with The Ladder by a hair. Tormato probably has the better "best songs" with "Don't Kill the Whale", "Madrigal", and "Onward", but it doesn't maintain nearly that level of quality through the rest of the album, making it hard to listen to as an entire piece. It has some slightly higher highs, but some much lower lows than The Ladder.

    I think Yes' lineup at the time of Tormato were really burnt out in terms of working with each other on the Yes project and it showed. It's a lineup that had produced some great things, and you could hear some good tunes still on this one, but the wheels had just fallen off in other ways. This is when Wakeman really hit scrobble all over everything playing as fast as he can with tweaky sounds that don't fit with the rest of the sounds around him mode. This also might be the album where Howe gets as close to Wakeman's later day style as he ever does, like they are in some kind of contest, but that style actually always sounds better on guitar than keyboards (It just does), and unfortunately them doing the style together never hit enough of a frenzy that it became good despite the lack of cohesion the way the WURM jams with Kaye and Rabin in the 80s did (And of course the WURM jams were helped by the more serious sounding Kaye organ and Rabin's hard rock shredding, which work better for playing really really fast sometimes). Anderson's lyrics were not as good as they had been previously. Squire and White still seemed to be going well, but couldn't save the thing.

    Even the artwork with Tormato kind of reflects a decline. I actually liked the use of this artist studio on Going for the One (Which was great in general), but this cover really didn't do it for me, and apparently the band agreed, hence the infamous story of one of them throwing a tomato at the mockup in disgust and then saying "Hey! That works.". And it kind of does, thanks to the fruit, but not like the Yes album covers of yore.

    It's also worth noting that to a large degree it really was just that the chemistry of these particular players together with each other had run it's course, but that most of the individual guys and the band in general still had big things ahead of them. Steve Howe, Chris Squire, and Alan White did an incredible job when paired with Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes on Drama for Yes' next album. Then, Howe and Downes created Asia and made one of the great albums of all time and several more very good ones, and White and Squire continued the Yes journey with Jon Anderson and Tony Kaye back in the group, along with the very talented Trevor Rabin , and two stellar albums in 90125 and Big Generator.

    But Tormato signaled that change we must, and the band and it's players did. A periodic lineup reshuffling can be a good thing even if all the individual players still have gas left in the tank and were good together in the past.

    Okay, so we look at The Ladder next. "Face to Face" was probably the really good song off that one, and I also thought "New Languages" was strong. Some of the album was a little too happy, a little too syrupy. I didn't like Igor's keyboard playing, which sounded like he was channeling Wakeman at the phase of Wakeman's career I like the least. However, nothing on that album is hard to listen to. There was some variation in styles without failing to sound like Yes. "Homeworld" sounded a little bit like a 70s Yes song, and "Lightning Strikes" was a kind of good song with a little kick. I thought the line about people talking on their new cell phones was actually a good one that stands out to me, because it brings Yes lyrically into the late 90s and you really understand that you are listening to Yes music for our times (Well, our times back when the album was released 20 years ago), basically- getting to hear this band sort of comment on a present that was different from their early songs.

    The Roger Dean cover was excellent.

    I actually liked both the album before The Ladder, Open Your Eyes, and the album after The Ladder, Magnification, much better than the The Ladder, and I don't think anyone considers that period peak Yes in general. So, The Ladder is not one of my favorites, but it is better than Tormato.

    And, of course, big picture, the worst Yes albums still tend to be better than a lot of non-Yes music. :) Better that these albums get made than that they don't.
    Last edited by downbyariver; 03-01-2018 at 12:55 AM.
    "A lot of the heavier conversations I was having with Chris toward the end were about his desire for this thing to go forward. He kept reiterating that to me. He kept telling me, ‘No matter what happens, Yes needs to continue moving forward and make great music. So promise me that that’s something you want to do.’ And I have to keep making music. It’s just what I do. I’m a fan of the band and I want to see it thrive and that means new music." -Billy Sherwood (Quote edited to fit under character limit for sig files)

  13. #13
    Dog Faced Boy Yorkshire Square's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Takes all sorts I suppose...

  14. #14
    Is this some kind of sick joke? Tonto Goldstein's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Square View Post
    ... the beefier playing of Alan and Chris later also evident on Drama....
    Absolutely! That's the thing I really love about Tormato and Drama, the rhythm section is just brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Square View Post
    Isn't that what can happen to your appendix?
    You know I was going to attribute Chris's exceptional intellect to his Yorkshirian genetics and a fine British education, but then I must account for you too...hmm, a difficult quandary to solve. Do you wear a helmet when you ride your bike? :-)
    Learn to love your enemies, because it really pisses them off. – Anon

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    (let this be a warning to anyone who wants to get in an argument with me. :-)

  15. #15
    Is this some kind of sick joke? Tonto Goldstein's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Square View Post
    Takes all sorts I suppose...
    Yes, but fewer of some. :-)
    Learn to love your enemies, because it really pisses them off. – Anon

    Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - - Mark Twain
    (let this be a warning to anyone who wants to get in an argument with me. :-)

  16. #16
    Dog Faced Boy Yorkshire Square's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonto Goldstein View Post
    You know I was going to attribute Chris's exceptional intellect to his Yorkshirian genetics and a fine British education, but then I must account for you too...hmm, a difficult quandary to solve. Do you wear a helmet when you ride your bike? :-)
    I'll have you know my school was approved, that's what it said on the sign anyway...

    And I taken my helmet with me everywhere.

  17. #17
    New music from both YES's please sherwoodfish1's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Tormato for me is wonderful
    It brings back so many happy memories

  18. #18
    Yes-East-West-Fan
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by downbyariver View Post
    It's also worth noting that to a large degree it really was just that the chemistry of these particular players together with each other had run it's course, but that most of the individual guys and the band in general still had big things ahead of them.
    Yes, Tormato is very good finale for that lineup. And I find it never should have played together again... Progression became Regression and nostalgia with an albums like ABWH and Keys and with the tours of 2002- 2004, as great as my 2004 shows were though. Yes should have moved in in other - new! - directions after Talk, which ever... like they jumped from Yes to The Yes Album from there to CTTE and ist two subsequent masterworks from there to Drama to 90125 and the two subsequent great Yeswestalbums... In 95 they better had jumped on instead of going to nostalgia and to half-retro-prog, half-Charts-orientated-stuff. My personal suggestions would have been grunge, metal, electro...like King Crimson did in their own way... other might have other suggestions...

  19. #19
    Is this some kind of sick joke? Tonto Goldstein's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Square View Post
    I'll have you know my school was approved, that's what it said on the sign anyway...
    I'll have you know I went to a School for the Gifted, said they needed me to bring the average test scores down

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshire Square View Post
    And I taken my helmet with me everywhere.
    Doctor's orders, was it?
    Learn to love your enemies, because it really pisses them off. – Anon

    Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - - Mark Twain
    (let this be a warning to anyone who wants to get in an argument with me. :-)

  20. #20
    Mega Insane Yesfan rmig68's Avatar
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    Re: Tormato vs The Ladder

    I don't particularly love either album. The sad part is that I love parts of each....but also hate a large swath of each. Nod to Tormato, but it was the end of the classic Yes era...and it was a large part of why it was the end.

    I then felt rejuvenated with Drama-Talk (even Union, ABWH) Keys was ok. I pretty much dislike OYE, Ladder, Magnification and Heaven and Earth.

    I really liked Fly From Here....so sue me.

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