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Thread: Merch Table @ ARW Show

  1. #121
    Dr. Fish will see you now. luna65's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by doppler View Post
    But It's none of my business really.
    Yeah, I mean, I'm not invested in the actual legality of the thing myself. They didn't create a good product utilizing the bubble logo, that's where they really failed as far as I can tell. But then again their merchandising shows an overall lack of imagination, IMO.
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  2. #122
    Mega Insane Yesfan josuev80's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by doppler View Post
    they do not have the right as far as I know and have been issued cease and desist orders already on this tour. But It's none of my business really.
    Thank you for your insight.

    Now, I am interested in who owns the legal rights to logos 2, 5, 6, and 7 for merchandising.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #123
    dreamland crotale2112's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    I'm not fond of the latest stuff for the tour...

    Out of all the Rabin era logos I like the talk logo the best, it would be nice to see a new image/painting consisting of the 90125/box set/Big G/Union and talk logos mixed all in one. Maybe that's why I find Yes's last years Dean's tour image of Tales and Drama together so cool.



    still undefined

  4. #124
    SR Super Yesfan downbyariver's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by RickH View Post
    One interesting thing about the merchandise is that "featuring" doesn't appear to be an essential component as it doesn't appear at all. It's just "Yes" with the three names.
    If they were hypothetically slowly trying to move from just ARW to just Yes using a very gradual approach, it would look a lot what like this group has been doing over the arc of their existence. They seem to keep inching just a little bit further and seeing if they get pushed back and stopped or not, and when they aren't, they then dip another few centimeters into the pond, rinse and repeat. Sort of like that old story about a frog jumping in a pot and the heat being raised so gradually that he doesn't notice and is eventually in boiling water and not moving out, even though he'd have immediately jumped out a pot that was full of boiling water if it was that way from the get-go. I think the frog here is Yes Official. I'm *almost* wondering when ARW is going to try to prevent Yes Official from using the Yes name and related trademarks, the way things are going...
    "A lot of the heavier conversations I was having with Chris toward the end were about his desire for this thing to go forward. He kept reiterating that to me. He kept telling me, ‘No matter what happens, Yes needs to continue moving forward and make great music. So promise me that that’s something you want to do.’ And I have to keep making music. It’s just what I do. I’m a fan of the band and I want to see it thrive and that means new music." -Billy Sherwood (Quote edited to fit under character limit for sig files)

  5. #125
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless View Post
    I think, but am not certain, that as long as you are not attempting to make money from the copyrighted material and are using it for your own personal use, there is no copyright infringement.
    No, it's still likely infringement, but unlikely purely as a practical concern to actually prompt legal action. Fair use exceptions to copyright terms in US law are actually pretty narrowly defined, and they also don't forestall suit over infringement, but rather are actually a defense if/once suit has been filed and proceedings begin.

    Rule of thumb, a judge isn't going to find the work(s) covered by fair use exceptions unless it's for commentary (think academic, satire, critique, etc.), non-commercial (intent matters less than, does it impact prospective licensing and/or sales of the genuine article), and is an adaptive rather than purely derivative work (what original content or value has been added? what new 'thing' does it 'say'?). These exceptions are all grounded in free-speech principles, with an eye towards overall societal value, and accordingly there have been some hilarious judgments issued over the years in which courts attempt to discern what- exactly- is concretely valuable to society in art, and in derivative art particularly. Bad philosophy papers have nothing on those!

    Otherwise, there really aren't many exceptions. Writers of fan fiction, for instance, regularly assure each other that their hobby is fully covered by fair use exceptions, but it likely isn't much at all; rather, it would be bad PR and alienate a segment of rather ardent fans if studios, publishers and authors cracked down on those works, so they pretty much ignore them unless somebody tries to make a buck off of it directly. It's a pragmatic business decision not to pursue, there, not a legal constraint.

    So it is with many Yes fans' tattoos, custom shirts, jewelry, and so forth. In other cases, where the actual work is not copied (as with t-shirts, some tattoos, etc.), but rather remade in new form, it would be more (but not exclusively) under the umbrella of trademark law, in which case, a court would probably be OK with it if there are no sales or misrepresentations going on. That being said, trademark holders are required to enforce their trademark distinctions or risk losing rights to the trademark via dilution, which basically means trademark holders are procedurally encouraged by law to sue now and worry about the legitimacy of their particular claims in the case later. So, there's that messy bit, too.

  6. #126
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by downbyariver View Post
    If they were hypothetically slowly trying to move from just ARW to just Yes using a very gradual approach, it would look a lot what like this group has been doing over the arc of their existence. They seem to keep inching just a little bit further and seeing if they get pushed back and stopped or not, and when they aren't, they then dip another few centimeters into the pond, rinse and repeat. Sort of like that old story about a frog jumping in a pot and the heat being raised so gradually that he doesn't notice and is eventually in boiling water and not moving out, even though he'd have immediately jumped out a pot that was full of boiling water if it was that way from the get-go. I think the frog here is Yes Official. I'm *almost* wondering when ARW is going to try to prevent Yes Official from using the Yes name and related trademarks, the way things are going...
    With only Alan White holding any rights in Yes official to use of the trademark, it could be no Alan no Yes. And with Alan almost physically unable to perform and he's not getting any younger. Steve Howe looks like he could play for another 5 years, Jon Anderson has had resurgence in his voice, but at nearly 73 perhaps he has 5 more years. I would bet that Anderson would like any Yes to end upon his retirement.
    Last edited by barry4806; 09-11-2017 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Clarification

  7. #127
    Mega Yesfan Davey1727's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Back to the shirts, the blue/gray Yes logo shirt looked a little better in person. Lots of those, the black ladies tee, and sweatshirts being sold in VA, didn't see too many takers of the black/gray logo shirt, tho.





  8. #128
    Dr. Fish will see you now. luna65's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    fiendish_thingy was at the VA show too, and she said the same thing - that the shirts look better in person. But apparently all they are selling is those three shirts, the hoodie, and a fridge magnet. Now I'm wondering if they didn't do so well last year with the hats and the coffee mugs and so pared back to the bare minimum. If I had known they weren't planning to sell the programs on this tour as well I would have begged someone here to get me one in the UK.
    "(Their current bassist looks like he's a Dungeon Master into ham radio & I love it)"
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  9. #129
    Christopher YESOLA's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless View Post
    I've got a giant Yes logo tattooed on my leg. I gave a DVD case for the tattoo guy to copy.

    where's the pic?
    So when we do concerts with any Yes music, I always say, there’s certain things you have to play that Chris played because without those notes, the voice doesn’t sing correctly. - Jon Anderson

    For me, it's Jon Anderson's distinctive, light but husky vocal that is as characteristic of their sound as anything - Andy MacIntyre

  10. #130
    Grumpy Old Man weams's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by barry4806 View Post
    With only Alan White holding any rights in Yes official to use of the trademark, it could be no Alan no Yes. And with Alan almost physically unable to perform and he's not getting any younger. Steve Howe looks like he could play for another 5 years, Jon Anderson has had resurgence in his voice, but at nearly 73 perhaps he has 5 more years. I would bet that Anderson would like any Yes to end upon his retirement.
    Be very grateful for every month at theses ages. Five year plans are not very stable. And I feel for Alan. I wish him well.

  11. #131
    Insane Yesfan Eddie Yesongs's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by luna65 View Post
    fiendish_thingy was at the VA show too, and she said the same thing - that the shirts look better in person. But apparently all they are selling is those three shirts, the hoodie, and a fridge magnet. Now I'm wondering if they didn't do so well last year with the hats and the coffee mugs and so pared back to the bare minimum. If I had known they weren't planning to sell the programs on this tour as well I would have begged someone here to get me one in the UK.
    I bought the sweatshirt and want to offer a warning - they are cut REALLY small, so try them on before you buy

    I'm normally an M or L, but even the XL is form fitting

    My bud needed an XXL and while he is broad, seems absurd, (also absurd that they are charging $5 more for XXL vs the S-XL sizes)

    No program as you say, Luna

    E
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  12. #132
    Dr. Fish will see you now. luna65's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Yeah I put a bug in Jay Nungesser's ear about it, but of course he doesn't have a say in what they decide to include for merch.
    "(Their current bassist looks like he's a Dungeon Master into ham radio & I love it)"
    - carrotfleur

    http://rabinesque.blogspot.com/




  13. #133
    War ... just breaks the soul Bluegrunt's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by luna65 View Post
    If I had known they weren't planning to sell the programs on this tour as well I would have begged someone here to get me one in the UK.
    That's a shame. I woulda got you one.
    Lame, naive, laughable and stupid

  14. #134
    Dr. Fish will see you now. luna65's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Thank you kindly for saying so.
    "(Their current bassist looks like he's a Dungeon Master into ham radio & I love it)"
    - carrotfleur

    http://rabinesque.blogspot.com/




  15. #135
    SR Mega Yesfan RelayerI's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    As an international community, it might be nice if we had a 'Could someone get me a....' thread for such instances - that way people could volunteer without being put on the spot by being asked directly. There's occasionally books, CD's and DVD's (not just Yes related) that are near impossible to get in different countries.

    I can testify that the good nature of Yes fans really works.
    Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...

  16. #136
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by barry4806 View Post
    With only Alan White holding any rights in Yes official to use of the trademark, it could be no Alan no Yes.
    you are incorrect in that statement.

  17. #137
    SR Super Yesfan downbyariver's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Quote Originally Posted by barry4806 View Post
    And with Alan almost physically unable to perform and he's not getting any younger. Steve Howe looks like he could play for another 5 years, Jon Anderson has had resurgence in his voice, but at nearly 73 perhaps he has 5 more years. I would bet that Anderson would like any Yes to end upon his retirement.
    This is one of my big concerns about Yes Featuring ARW potentially emerging as the only Yes in a hypothetical where the market sort of determines that there can only be one band, and they somehow wipe out Yes Official (Which I of course hope doesn't happen for a variety of reasons). It's not just partisanship for Yes Official's members, approach, and/or it's linear continuity with Yes going back to 1969 with members being added and subtracted and new albums following, it's also the future of Yes beyond the present.

    If ARW is the last Yes standing and then Jon Anderson retires or whatever, that will almost certainly be the end of Yes. All three principles in that band have said that they don't think anything is or can be Yes without Jon Anderson singing on it. The touring musicians they have aren't really treated as full band members. When Jon Anderson is done with Yes Featuring ARW, that's going to be it for Yes Featuring ARW, except maybe for a stray live release or a few unreleased studio songs recorded before the end of it that could be released later.

    Yes Official isn't *definitely* going to continue beyond Steve Howe and Alan White, but it could. They have a long history of carrying on after key members have left. They haven't publicly tied themselves to any ideology or philosophy that says that Yes needs to have any particular person in it to be Yes, having carried on with three lead singers when Anderson hasn't been in the band on different occasions, with Billy Sherwood being asked explicitly by Chris Squire, the only member of Yes to appear on every studio album, to take his place in the band and carry on making new music and touring without him (Meaning there have been at least two people who've been at every position in the band. I guess maybe another studio album would be needed to make that official, depending on how one measures these things).

    And while it doesn't appear that younger members like Jon Davison and Billy Sherwood have been made owners of the trademarks or business side of the operations (Although it's possible that they have been and it just hasn't been made public- Yes is notoriously secretive about this stuff), in public statements and releases when Yes Official names it's members, it's always been very clear to list all five. In advertisements and press releases, the nomenclature tends to be "Yes- Steve Howe, Alan White, Geoff Downes, Jon Davison, and Billy Sherwood". The younger guys are for at least promotional and public purposes treated as full members of the band and successors to the people who used to fill the position. Though Davison may be a paid employee, he's not a touring or session musician, he's billed in the same way Jon Anderson was. Ditto Sherwood for Squire. The order of the names changes, but three guys aren't featured to the exclusion of the other two (Briefly in 07 or 08 when the band first came back, Squire, Howe, and White got a spotlight, but they were still in theory hoping for Anderson to return- and that didn't last long, otherwise it's always been five equals in press). Downes is thought to at least have a full share of touring revenue as though he owns part of the touring company, rather than being paid a salary, although he may just be contractually given that method of reimbursement rather than being an actual shareholder- Yes hasn't made that part public as far as I recall.

    So, while it's a possibility Howe could retire Yes with him when he's done (Maybe- we're kind of guessing at what people have the ability to do or not do because so much isn't public), it's also possible he could allow the band to carry on as it always has with departures, deaths, and retirements, and let the remaining members find a new guitarist and continue to tour and make albums. I hope he allows them to carry on. And that hope is part of why I think it's important that Yes Official win or at least stay even in this battle of the bands, because the only way they'll be a Yes after Jon Anderson, Steve Howe, and Alan White have retired is if Yes Official is still around- it's not definite that the name would be passed on, but Yes Official might do it, Yes Featuring ARW will definitely not.

    Actually, I wish someone would ask Steve Howe about this (Whether he will pass down the name for the remaining members to carry on with and make new Yes albums with in the event of his retirement) in an interview and follow up if necessary with other questions and really try to get an answer out of him. It's acceptable to give up on that if he walks out on you or kicks you in the head, though.
    Last edited by downbyariver; 09-15-2017 at 09:13 PM.
    "A lot of the heavier conversations I was having with Chris toward the end were about his desire for this thing to go forward. He kept reiterating that to me. He kept telling me, ‘No matter what happens, Yes needs to continue moving forward and make great music. So promise me that that’s something you want to do.’ And I have to keep making music. It’s just what I do. I’m a fan of the band and I want to see it thrive and that means new music." -Billy Sherwood (Quote edited to fit under character limit for sig files)

  18. #138
    Getting Over Overhanging Trees cerulean's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    They were selling tour programmes at the Massey Hall Toronto show last night (25 bucks!!).

    However, the dates listed inside ended March 2017.......

  19. #139
    Dr. Fish will see you now. luna65's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    Right, those are the ones which were sold in the uK - hopefully they've decided to sell off the remaining stock and there's still a chance for me to get one! C'mon East Coast!

    I also saw photos from one of the YMP guys and he was wearing a new hat - gray with the new Yes logo - so maybe there's more stuff now that they just didn't have ready before? Or I guess it could have been a new VIP item.
    "(Their current bassist looks like he's a Dungeon Master into ham radio & I love it)"
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  20. #140
    Getting Over Overhanging Trees cerulean's Avatar
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    Re: Merch Table @ ARW Show

    There wasn't much merch, 2 guys t-shirts, one girls, one hoodie, tour programme, poster and some magnets I think that was it.

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