Google
 


Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7
Results 121 to 129 of 129

Thread: Steve Howe on Geoff Downes

  1. #121
    dreamland crotale2112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    dreamland connecticut. to the left of the garden of geda
    Posts
    5,360
    Rep Power
    107374689

    Re: Steve Howe on Geoff Downes

    Quote Originally Posted by pat 2 View Post
    oh.

    i think I misinterpreted the title of this thread.

    Drat. That was gonna be spicy!

    Patoo
    in regards to the title in your eyes it makes perfect sense... Steve is much lighter in weight than Geoff.

    still undefined

  2. #122
    Insane Yesfan Don the Cap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    1,872
    Rep Power
    107374302

    Re: Steve Howe on Geoff Downes

    Quote Originally Posted by pat 2 View Post
    oh.

    i think I misinterpreted the title of this thread.

    Drat. That was gonna be spicy!

    Patoo
    Ew!

  3. #123
    Yesfan
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Central Illinois, US
    Age
    27
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    59056240

    Bringin' the best in Wall-o-Text since 2011-07-02!

    Let's get the first thing out of the way:

    First, they all suck next to Keith Emerson. Moraz might stand a chance, but... meh. [shrugs]

    Second, the only 'official keyboardist' the band has had that truly was not up to the role was Billy in that very brief interval in the nineties. Still didn't make anyone's ears bleed, though.

    Okay, we can go on now, everyone's Yesfan-egos being cut down a hair.

    Quote Originally Posted by RelayerI View Post
    So exactly why is he in the band?
    I'd hazard a guess that he gets along with the current and former members he's toured and recorded with. Clearly, that's the difference from some of the others that are either gone or in an alternate lineup right now. No judgement on the validity, cause or import of those personality clashes from me here, though I admit I have some unverified suspicions.

    It is obvious, and Igor didn't struggle, nor Brislin.
    [sucks air through teeth] Khoroshev gets more credit than he deserves as a sort of avatar of his esteemed predecessor. Much like Rick Wakeman himself, plenty of times he'd just improvise baroque-esque work that approximated scales and appropriate chords to match the original in concert, but didn't always play the actual composition as recorded. Depends how strict you want to get, then. Similar sound, though, to be sure, and plenty quick with his fingerwork.

    For Brislin, that's fair enough, and I have no issues whatsoever with his work touring with Yes. (Some of his pitch-bending on "Gates" was a little odd, but so goes live pitch-bending.) I just wish he'd been mixed a little louder on Symphonic Live. I don't have a good enough understanding of his influences or his solo work to make a judgement on his compositional style, though- good, bad or indifferent. Liked his solo album well enough on its own, though.

    Geoff's great - good enough for most top flight bands, but not Yes.
    (No True Yesman, I'm calling it here.)
    Only if you think Wakeman's style defined Yes's style. If you're partial to Kaye's earlier influence on the band, though, maybe not. Reference Kaye's even earlier influence on the first two albums, and perhaps no one has done the role justice since. Keep that in mind, too, beyond personal tastes.

    It's no good Steve (justifiably) taking issue with Rabin's guitar approximations then turning a blind eye to Geoff's on keyboards.
    Keeping in mind Wakeman's and Khoroshev's stylistically-similar but very-much-approximated performances over the years, you might justifiably define the issue as a matter of taste or suited style, but it's not quite the same as Rabin occasionally playing bizarrely distracting chords with lots of distortion during "Yours Is No Disgrace" on Union (EDIT: Oops! I meant the Union tour!), for instance. (I've heard nothing from ARW/YesF tours, so I can't comment on that honestly.)

    Quote Originally Posted by RelayerI View Post
    He's not got the classical piano background.
    You're right; he's primarily an organist by habit and musical convention, not a pianist. Sort of like Kaye, actually. Maybe that's why people think the two sound alike, and why people think Wakeman and Khoroshev sound alike (when they really don't apart from the influences they share from baroque piano).

    I happen to prefer Kaye or Downes by impact upon a band as a unit, though sometimes find them less interesting than baroque piano styled players in solo performance.

    Beyond that, where Wakeman seems keen to reference baroque in bits and pieces, Downes seems more fond of romantic conventions. It's not that one knows classical music and the other does not, but that they seem to naturally gravitate towards different eras of reference. That is not at all surprising, as many very interesting organ pieces beyond Bach tend towards more romantic conventions, and it also lines up nicely with Wakeman's tendency towards variations on running scales (compare Wakeman's harpsichord 'sound' to Downes's on something like the intro to "Ride Easy", imagining if you can the same run on an organ) and Downes's penchant to use keyboards for regular rhythmic accent and not merely melody.

    Side note: When you listen to a lot of organ performances, by organists, it's funny to listen to pianists play pipe organ- there's usually a sense that the feet aren't nearly living up to the hands.
    Don't know how Downes's pedal work would be after years of playing synths, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Geoff finished his music degree; Rick didn't finish his. Geoff's got more formal training.
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Very true. But someone raised this particular issue of classical piano training. You sometimes hear this story about Yes members being virtuoso, classically-trained musicians, but they're not. Howe, Bruford, Anderson, all self-taught. Squire self-taught on bass, after a certain amount of formal training at school as a chorister. Kaye has formal training at school age, gets into music college, but doesn't go. Wakeman does, goes further, but then drops out. Downes is the first who has actually completed a music degree. But it's the keyboardists who really are the only ones with any significant classical training until Rabin: Rabin began a composition degree, but I can't recall if he finished or dropped out?

    And I think it tells in that the Yes member who will talk about Yes music most analytically, in formal compositional terms, is Downes.

    Henry
    Oh, my. I was trying to be nice and avoid the easy play, but it's true, though it sounds a bit like a parent putting down one son by asking why he can't be more like his younger brother. I know that's not what you meant, but now I can't help thinking of the menagerie of Yes alumni as in-laws and exes and a few drunk friends at the world's weirdest multi-stage wedding and divorce filing.

    Quote Originally Posted by somissound View Post
    I agree regarding Steve and Geoff. While I really like Rabin's guitar work, production, and writing with Yes, I can totally understand how some fans, and Steve, feel about Rabin's contributions to Yes.
    If Rabin were Yes's keyboardist, I'd be giddy with newfound interest and curiosity. Guitar, not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSludge View Post
    I think Downes is kind of a douche... personally and politically. Admittedly, I don't know him personally and am basing my opinion solely on what I've read of his posts. I'm guessing his attitude partly comes from being second choice to RW so many times...it seems like it might stick in his craw just a bit.
    I dunno, guys, what's the room thinking? Should I transpose "Downes" and "RW" in the above as an educational exercise in the subjectivity of opinion, as well as for teh lulz? What's everyone feelin' tonight?!

    Quote Originally Posted by pat 2 View Post
    oh.

    i think I misinterpreted the title of this thread.

    Drat. That was gonna be spicy!

    Patoo
    Slash Yesfanfiction? I suppose it was only a matter of time- this is the Internet, after all.
    Last edited by Parugin; 09-30-2017 at 01:34 PM.

  4. #124
    onward... somissound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Somis, California
    Age
    45
    Posts
    8,989
    Rep Power
    107374872

    Re: Steve Howe on Geoff Downes

    I enjoy Geoff's work on Drama as much as Pat's on Relayer, Tony's on TYA, or Rick's on CTTE. The sounds, performance, and arranging. Another refreshing different flavor of Yes.


  5. #125
    Beeflin beeflin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Totnes
    Age
    60
    Posts
    504
    Rep Power
    107374308

    Re: Bringin' the best in Wall-o-Text since 2011-07-02!

    Quote Originally Posted by Parugin View Post
    Let's get the first thing out of the way:

    First, they all suck next to Keith Emerson. Moraz might stand a chance, but... meh. [shrugs]
    An excellent starting point!

    My view is that Tony Kaye, as the original choice, remains the most integrated, bedded-in keyboardist Yes ever had. Rick Wakeman, however, deserves his special place in the pantheon, despite being more of an "overlay" on what had become a more guitar+bass band, because of his incredible timing and speed - he always kept up with the beat. On a more emotional level, and more importantly to my mind, he was also the supreme Mellotron arranger. Despite his dubious attitude to Topographic, his Mellotron parts on that album are heart-rendingly beautiful and essential.

    Moraz and Downes both have a sloppiness which can't help irritating metronomic Wakeman fans, but their compositional input should inspire forgiveness :-)

    Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
    18 awesome musicians who created and maintain a legend

  6. #126
    SR Mega Yesfan RelayerI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The Black Country England
    Posts
    8,059
    Rep Power
    107374693

    Re: Bringin' the best in Wall-o-Text since 2011-07-02!

    Quote Originally Posted by Parugin View Post
    Let's get the first thing out of the way:

    First, they all suck next to Keith Emerson. Moraz might stand a chance, but... meh. [shrugs]

    Second, the only 'official keyboardist' the band has had that truly was not up to the role was Billy in that very brief interval in the nineties. Still didn't make anyone's ears bleed, though.

    Okay, we can go on now, everyone's Yesfan-egos being cut down a hair.


    I'd hazard a guess that he gets along with the current and former members he's toured and recorded with. Clearly, that's the difference from some of the others that are either gone or in an alternate lineup right now. No judgement on the validity, cause or import of those personality clashes from me here, though I admit I have some unverified suspicions.


    [sucks air through teeth] Khoroshev gets more credit than he deserves as a sort of avatar of his esteemed predecessor. Much like Rick Wakeman himself, plenty of times he'd just improvise baroque-esque work that approximated scales and appropriate chords to match the original in concert, but didn't always play the actual composition as recorded. Depends how strict you want to get, then. Similar sound, though, to be sure, and plenty quick with his fingerwork.

    For Brislin, that's fair enough, and I have no issues whatsoever with his work touring with Yes. (Some of his pitch-bending on "Gates" was a little odd, but so goes live pitch-bending.) I just wish he'd been mixed a little louder on Symphonic Live. I don't have a good enough understanding of his influences or his solo work to make a judgement on his compositional style, though- good, bad or indifferent. Liked his solo album well enough on its own, though.


    (No True Yesman, I'm calling it here.)
    Only if you think Wakeman's style defined Yes's style. If you're partial to Kaye's earlier influence on the band, though, maybe not. Reference Kaye's even earlier influence on the first two albums, and perhaps no one has done the role justice since. Keep that in mind, too, beyond personal tastes.


    Keeping in mind Wakeman's and Khoroshev's stylistically-similar but very-much-approximated performances over the years, you might justifiably define the issue as a matter of taste or suited style, but it's not quite the same as Rabin occasionally playing bizarrely distracting chords with lots of distortion during "Yours Is No Disgrace" on Union, for instance. (I've heard nothing from ARW/YesF tours, so I can't comment on that honestly.)


    You're right; he's primarily an organist by habit and musical convention, not a pianist. Sort of like Kaye, actually. Maybe that's why people think the two sound alike, and why people think Wakeman and Khoroshev sound alike (when they really don't apart from the influences they share from baroque piano).

    I happen to prefer Kaye or Downes by impact upon a band as a unit, though sometimes find them less interesting than baroque piano styled players in solo performance.

    Beyond that, where Wakeman seems keen to reference baroque in bits and pieces, Downes seems more fond of romantic conventions. It's not that one knows classical music and the other does not, but that they seem to naturally gravitate towards different eras of reference. That is not at all surprising, as many very interesting organ pieces beyond Bach tend towards more romantic conventions, and it also lines up nicely with Wakeman's tendency towards variations on running scales (compare Wakeman's harpsichord 'sound' to Downes's on something like the intro to "Ride Easy", imagining if you can the same run on an organ) and Downes's penchant to use keyboards for regular rhythmic accent and not merely melody.

    Side note: When you listen to a lot of organ performances, by organists, it's funny to listen to pianists play pipe organ- there's usually a sense that the feet aren't nearly living up to the hands.
    Don't know how Downes's pedal work would be after years of playing synths, though...



    Oh, my. I was trying to be nice and avoid the easy play, but it's true, though it sounds a bit like a parent putting down one son by asking why he can't be more like his younger brother. I know that's not what you meant, but now I can't help thinking of the menagerie of Yes alumni as in-laws and exes and a few drunk friends at the world's weirdest multi-stage wedding and divorce filing.


    If Rabin were Yes's keyboardist, I'd be giddy with newfound interest and curiosity. Guitar, not so much.


    I dunno, guys, what's the room thinking? Should I transpose "Downes" and "RW" in the above as an educational exercise in the subjectivity of opinion, as well as for teh lulz? What's everyone feelin' tonight?!


    Slash Yesfanfiction? I suppose it was only a matter of time- this is the Internet, after all.
    What a fantastic post. Coherent, well argued and non-confrontational. Valid points challenging idle thinking and giving real food for thought.

    Don't make a habit of it !

    And yes, Wakeman is cemented in my mind as 'The' model for Yes keyboards. I realised how much I'd missed him when I saw AWR last year. My take on things naturally reflects this.
    Soon oh soon the light, Pass within and soothe this endless night, And wait here for you, Our reason to be here...

  7. #127
    SR Mega Yesfan Mr. Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Hoofddorp, the Netherlands
    Age
    44
    Posts
    25,259
    Rep Power
    107375727

    Re: Bringin' the best in Wall-o-Text since 2011-07-02!

    Quote Originally Posted by Parugin View Post
    Let's get the first thing out of the way:

    First, they all suck next to Keith Emerson. Moraz might stand a chance, but... meh. [shrugs]

    Second, the only 'official keyboardist' the band has had that truly was not up to the role was Billy in that very brief interval in the nineties. Still didn't make anyone's ears bleed, though.

    Okay, we can go on now, everyone's Yesfan-egos being cut down a hair.


    I'd hazard a guess that he gets along with the current and former members he's toured and recorded with. Clearly, that's the difference from some of the others that are either gone or in an alternate lineup right now. No judgement on the validity, cause or import of those personality clashes from me here, though I admit I have some unverified suspicions.


    [sucks air through teeth] Khoroshev gets more credit than he deserves as a sort of avatar of his esteemed predecessor. Much like Rick Wakeman himself, plenty of times he'd just improvise baroque-esque work that approximated scales and appropriate chords to match the original in concert, but didn't always play the actual composition as recorded. Depends how strict you want to get, then. Similar sound, though, to be sure, and plenty quick with his fingerwork.

    For Brislin, that's fair enough, and I have no issues whatsoever with his work touring with Yes. (Some of his pitch-bending on "Gates" was a little odd, but so goes live pitch-bending.) I just wish he'd been mixed a little louder on Symphonic Live. I don't have a good enough understanding of his influences or his solo work to make a judgement on his compositional style, though- good, bad or indifferent. Liked his solo album well enough on its own, though.


    (No True Yesman, I'm calling it here.)
    Only if you think Wakeman's style defined Yes's style. If you're partial to Kaye's earlier influence on the band, though, maybe not. Reference Kaye's even earlier influence on the first two albums, and perhaps no one has done the role justice since. Keep that in mind, too, beyond personal tastes.


    Keeping in mind Wakeman's and Khoroshev's stylistically-similar but very-much-approximated performances over the years, you might justifiably define the issue as a matter of taste or suited style, but it's not quite the same as Rabin occasionally playing bizarrely distracting chords with lots of distortion during "Yours Is No Disgrace" on Union, for instance. (I've heard nothing from ARW/YesF tours, so I can't comment on that honestly.)


    You're right; he's primarily an organist by habit and musical convention, not a pianist. Sort of like Kaye, actually. Maybe that's why people think the two sound alike, and why people think Wakeman and Khoroshev sound alike (when they really don't apart from the influences they share from baroque piano).

    I happen to prefer Kaye or Downes by impact upon a band as a unit, though sometimes find them less interesting than baroque piano styled players in solo performance.

    Beyond that, where Wakeman seems keen to reference baroque in bits and pieces, Downes seems more fond of romantic conventions. It's not that one knows classical music and the other does not, but that they seem to naturally gravitate towards different eras of reference. That is not at all surprising, as many very interesting organ pieces beyond Bach tend towards more romantic conventions, and it also lines up nicely with Wakeman's tendency towards variations on running scales (compare Wakeman's harpsichord 'sound' to Downes's on something like the intro to "Ride Easy", imagining if you can the same run on an organ) and Downes's penchant to use keyboards for regular rhythmic accent and not merely melody.

    Side note: When you listen to a lot of organ performances, by organists, it's funny to listen to pianists play pipe organ- there's usually a sense that the feet aren't nearly living up to the hands.
    Don't know how Downes's pedal work would be after years of playing synths, though...



    Oh, my. I was trying to be nice and avoid the easy play, but it's true, though it sounds a bit like a parent putting down one son by asking why he can't be more like his younger brother. I know that's not what you meant, but now I can't help thinking of the menagerie of Yes alumni as in-laws and exes and a few drunk friends at the world's weirdest multi-stage wedding and divorce filing.


    If Rabin were Yes's keyboardist, I'd be giddy with newfound interest and curiosity. Guitar, not so much.


    I dunno, guys, what's the room thinking? Should I transpose "Downes" and "RW" in the above as an educational exercise in the subjectivity of opinion, as well as for teh lulz? What's everyone feelin' tonight?!


    Slash Yesfanfiction? I suppose it was only a matter of time- this is the Internet, after all.
    That is quite an impressive post and better worded than I could have done, which makes me slightly jealous since your 17 years younger...

    Quote Originally Posted by Parugin View Post
    ...but now I can't help thinking of the menagerie of Yes alumni as in-laws and exes and a few drunk friends at the world's weirdest multi-stage wedding and divorce filing.
    Yup....that is a pretty accurate anology and would be a good, although overly long, synonym for the band Yes....
    ReAwaken (after the Bethlehem Sands concert 2016):
    Sometimes in music, the songs can transcend the band members themselves - I think Yes is such a band.

  8. #128
    Yesfan
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Central Illinois, US
    Age
    27
    Posts
    71
    Rep Power
    59056240

    Re: Bringin' the best in Wall-o-Text since 2011-07-02!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holland View Post
    Yup....that is a pretty accurate anology and would be a good, although overly long, synonym for the band Yes....
    Are you trying to tell me something?

    :P
    Last edited by Parugin; 09-30-2017 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Oh! My post title has been propogated as if Yesfans were the host's cells!

  9. #129
    Yesfan
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    93
    Rep Power
    46799970

    Re: Steve Howe on Geoff Downes

    Quote Originally Posted by pat 2 View Post
    oh.

    i think I misinterpreted the title of this thread.

    Drat. That was gonna be spicy!

    Patoo
    Same here. I was thinking, Okay, I guess there could be Yes slash fiction. And then I read the Steve complaint in the first post about only twiddling...
    Fun Fact: Your average university's school of music has jazz and classical guitar students whose names you'll never hear of, but who nonetheless make the Howe vs Rabin debate pretty pointless.





Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •