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Thread: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ig View Post
    The other day I was passing through Schiphol Airport on the way home from Lima. My KLM flight was not displayed on the boards so I went to the information desk. "Glasgow? that's in England, and it's not in Europe, so it will leave from Pier D"

    Welcome to the future.......
    Britain will still be in Europe after leaving the EU. We will be out of the EU like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The EU is a narrow supra-nationalist and protectionist racket. It has been levying higher tariffs than Trump for decades.

    The EU's tariffs on foreign cars is 10% compared to 2.5% in the US. In 2016, the EU raised tariffs on oranges from 2.5% to 16%. Spain does not like African competition. And you wonder why the EU threatened more tariffs on American oranges.

    If you want an example of Trump economics in practice, just look at the EU's protectionist racket and the Common Agricultural Policy.

  2. #322
    Yes Old Fart Chris2210's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSludge View Post
    Of course it's nuanced. Almost everything in life is nuanced.

    My argument is not that every single person that voted for brexit is a racist. My argument is that it was deliberately marketed to appeal to that element in order to get enough support.

    The same thing is happening here. The GOP was so hot to undo any progressive headway that has been made that they were willing to get in bed with Nazis and other racist scum to make that happen. Now they can roll back anything they want, either through legislation or the courts.

    My point is that if you are willing to tolerate odious people and their ideology to further your agenda, then don't be surprised if you get painted with that brush.
    Oh I think you're right that they cornered that particular market.

    I think there's actually a great irony in the fragmentation of British politics which is having a negative impact on either side.

    At one time the Tories along with being a monetarist party, would appeal to all the socially regressive elements in society - so they'd get a section of the working class vote that didn't like darkies, poofs, scroungers [even where they were state dependent themselves] and thought a woman's place was in the home.

    On the other side Labour was a party founded on socialist economics with an inclusive social outlook.

    Then Blair came along and hijacked the Labour Party into becoming another free market champion with a glossy rebrand.

    Wind on another few years and as society slowly came to default to a more openly tolerant and inclusive model there were not so many votes to be vacuumed up from a 'hang 'em, flog 'em, send 'em 'ome' contingent - and what there is is increasingly heading to the grave.

    So under 'call-me-Dave' the Tories did their own brand spring-clean to move away from the toxicity of the old 'nasty party' image by vocally supporting inclusivity [astonishingly it was they who ushered in gay marriage!] Obviously this is where there's no major cost to the exchequer, so they'll pay lip service to disabilities while robbing those who are dependent on state support.

    That does mean the Tories have lost some of their more conservative [sic!] traditional support, but they've made the cynical calculation that the figures stack up better this way.

    In fact even UKIP were strenuously at pains to deny there's was not a racist position and to some degree I think that's right. {many of them hate Europeans even more than other furriners.

    Because xenophobia is the new racism and colour is fairly irrelevant because many of those fearful of the 'immigrant nicking our jobs' [and there is some point to that as a lot of the influx is cheap labour] are either the offspring or even first generation immigrants themselves.

    As the US is a nation of immigrants, you should be able to understand that.

    The point is it is such a complex issue and such a fragmented landscape that to 'tar everyone with the same brush', is no more than the sort of generalisation that is the basis for all prejudice. There may be grains of truth in there, but the picture is so hazy it's fairly meaningless even as a shorthand.

    The Labour Party over here has [at least in terms of the leadership and the broad base - there are still many Blairites in the PLP] shifted back to being a socialist party - partly because there's a genuine malaise among huge numbers who are feeling disenfranchised by neoliberalism, and partly because there needs to be some clear differentiation from the Tories.

    It's interesting to see that the cartel of the forces of the Right [including most of the media] are now seeing accusations of racism [in the form of anti-Semitism] as one of the more effective forms of attack on the current leadership. That's a messy picture too, but it's another topic.
    Last edited by Chris2210; 5 Days Ago at 10:06 AM.

  3. #323
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2210 View Post
    Oh I think you're right that they cornered that particular market.

    I think there's actually a great irony in the fragmentation of British politics which is having a negative impact on either side.

    At one time the Tories along with being a monetarist party, would appeal to all the socially regressive elements in society - so they'd get a section of the working class vote that didn't like darkies, poofs, scroungers [even where they were state dependent themselves] and thought a woman's place was in the home.

    On the other side Labour was a party founded on socialist economics with an inclusive social outlook.

    Then Blair came along and hijacked the Labour Party into becoming another free market champion with a glossy rebrand.

    Wind on another few years and as society slowly came to default to a more openly tolerant and inclusive model there were not so many votes to be vacuumed up from a 'hang 'em, flog 'em, send 'em 'ome' contingent - and what there is is increasingly heading to the grave.

    So under 'call-me-Dave' the Tories did their own brand spring-clean to move away from the toxicity of the old 'nasty party' image by vocally supporting inclusivity [astonishingly it was they who ushered in gay marriage!] Obviously this is where there's no major cost to the exchequer, so they'll pay lip service to disabilities while robbing those who are dependent on state support.

    That does mean the Tories have lost some of their more conservative [sic!] traditional support, but they've made the cynical calculation that the figures stack up better this way.

    In fact even UKIP were strenuously at pains to deny there's was not a racist position and to some degree I think that's right. {many of them hate Europeans even more than other furriners.

    Because xenophobia is the new racism and colour is fairly irrelevant because many of those fearful of the 'immigrant nicking our jobs' [and there is some point to that as a lot of the influx is cheap labour] are either the offspring or even first generation immigrants themselves.

    As the US is a nation of immigrants, you should be able to understand that.

    The point is it is such a complex issue and such a fragmented landscape that to 'tar everyone with the same brush', is no more than the sort of generalisation that is the basis for all prejudice. There may be grains of truth in there, but the picture is so hazy it's fairly meaningless even as a shorthand.

    The Labour Party over here has [at least in terms of the leadership and the broad base - there are still many Blairites in the PLP] shifted back to being a socialist party - partly because there's a genuine malaise among huge numbers who are feeling disenfranchised by neoliberalism, and partly because there needs to be some clear differentiation from the Tories.

    It's interesting to see that the cartel of the forces of the Right [including most of the media] are now seeing accusations of racism [in the form of anti-Semitism] as one of the more effective forms of attack on the current leadership. That's a messy picture too, but it's another topic.
    True that !
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2210 View Post
    Oh I think you're right that they cornered that particular market.

    I think there's actually a great irony in the fragmentation of British politics which is having a negative impact on either side.

    At one time the Tories along with being a monetarist party, would appeal to all the socially regressive elements in society - so they'd get a section of the working class vote that didn't like darkies, poofs, scroungers [even where they were state dependent themselves] and thought a woman's place was in the home.

    On the other side Labour was a party founded on socialist economics with an inclusive social outlook.

    Then Blair came along and hijacked the Labour Party into becoming another free market champion with a glossy rebrand.

    Wind on another few years and as society slowly came to default to a more openly tolerant and inclusive model there were not so many votes to be vacuumed up from a 'hang 'em, flog 'em, send 'em 'ome' contingent - and what there is is increasingly heading to the grave.

    So under 'call-me-Dave' the Tories did their own brand spring-clean to move away from the toxicity of the old 'nasty party' image by vocally supporting inclusivity [astonishingly it was they who ushered in gay marriage!] Obviously this is where there's no major cost to the exchequer, so they'll pay lip service to disabilities while robbing those who are dependent on state support.

    That does mean the Tories have lost some of their more conservative [sic!] traditional support, but they've made the cynical calculation that the figures stack up better this way.

    In fact even UKIP were strenuously at pains to deny there's was not a racist position and to some degree I think that's right. {many of them hate Europeans even more than other furriners.

    Because xenophobia is the new racism and colour is fairly irrelevant because many of those fearful of the 'immigrant nicking our jobs' [and there is some point to that as a lot of the influx is cheap labour] are either the offspring or even first generation immigrants themselves.

    As the US is a nation of immigrants, you should be able to understand that.

    The point is it is such a complex issue and such a fragmented landscape that to 'tar everyone with the same brush', is no more than the sort of generalisation that is the basis for all prejudice. There may be grains of truth in there, but the picture is so hazy it's fairly meaningless even as a shorthand.

    The Labour Party over here has [at least in terms of the leadership and the broad base - there are still many Blairites in the PLP] shifted back to being a socialist party - partly because there's a genuine malaise among huge numbers who are feeling disenfranchised by neoliberalism, and partly because there needs to be some clear differentiation from the Tories.

    It's interesting to see that the cartel of the forces of the Right [including most of the media] are now seeing accusations of racism [in the form of anti-Semitism] as one of the more effective forms of attack on the current leadership. That's a messy picture too, but it's another topic.
    I dunno.

    To me, the simple truths are the most profound....like the old adage that you are known by the company you keep. If you don't want people thinking you're a Nazi, don't hang out with Nazis. If you don't want people thinking you're a racist, don't hang out with racists....and by "hang out with" I mean tolerate, and spew their talking points when it furthers your cause.

    Pretty simple, actually.

  5. #325
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Except it just isn't. I have family members who voted Leave. I have close friends who voted Leave. Relayer1, I assume voted Leave.

    Do I think these people are racists? I think most, if not all, would be absolutely horrified by the idea and rightly deeply offended by the imputation.

    The point is, once you've done that, all rational argument ceases - you don't persuade them, you just put up an unscaleable wall between people.

    A lot of the Leave side had logical and respectable rationales for their position (I'm among many who think there are very many problems with the EU and especially the Eurozone - so I'm not out of sympathy will all of those arguments - another problem for the sensible Remain camp). You or anyone else lumping them in with bigots does not help. At all.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    There's been a system in place that a political arguement was made against and people believed the arguement. I happen to believe that tieing countries together economically has security benefits which can often be not as tangible as others but are nonetheless just as valuable valuable. People sre so spoiled they expect a perfect world. They expect something for nothing. I dont know about GB but in America we have millions who dont do what it takes to find good paying jobs but expect to get paid well. Vouple that with a system that favors the 1% and youve got lemmings ready to believe anything. Its immigrants fault i cant afford that new flat screen
    What's conservative about people not paying their fair share in taxes, giving tax cuts to the wealthy and constantly putting the tax burden on the shrinking middle class?





  7. #327
    Super Insane Yesfan DrSludge's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SeeTheDesert View Post
    There's been a system in place that a political arguement was made against and people believed the arguement. I happen to believe that tieing countries together economically has security benefits which can often be not as tangible as others but are nonetheless just as valuable valuable. People sre so spoiled they expect a perfect world. They expect something for nothing. I dont know about GB but in America we have millions who dont do what it takes to find good paying jobs but expect to get paid well. Vouple that with a system that favors the 1% and youve got lemmings ready to believe anything. Its immigrants fault i cant afford that new flat screen
    Absolutely.

    And when you factor in the systemic racism and misogyny that is ingrained in our culture (and, frankly, in all of us to one degree or another) the result is a population that can be very easily led/manipulated.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2210 View Post
    Relayer1, I assume voted Leave.
    I did, and I'm still against our membership.

    With regard to what is happening I'm having some misgivings about voting that way. I'm still kind of idealistic, but this is a horrible mess...

    Edit : I'd rather we hadn't joined in the first place. It's looking like leaving will just be chaos.
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  9. #329
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSludge View Post
    Absolutely.

    And when you factor in the systemic racism and misogyny that is ingrained in our culture (and, frankly, in all of us to one degree or another) the result is a population that can be very easily led/manipulated.
    There's a real philosophical dilemma here. Obviously [we hope] it is undesirable for policy to follow prejudice. I'd further hope - at least in the UK - it is no more than a marginal problem, in that the default position is that the sort of prejudice that was acceptable in my parent's generation [businesses famously using signage saying 'No, dogs, no Irish, no blacks'] is completely beyond the pale. I genuinely believe that's the case socially here as well as legally.

    But then there's democracy - and you either believe in it, or you don't. So you can legislate against certain things, but you can't deny the vote to people who have principles you don't agree with. Then you get the arguments which seek to undermine popular [or populist] opinion by slurring counter-positions on the grounds they utilise prejudice.*

    They may, but unless you are very careful about that sort of thing, the only thing you end up achieving is further division, further resentment and ultimately the undermining of democracy.

    Personally I think real democracy has been shockingly eroded due to the malign power of extra-national institutions [that's the multi-nationals]. We'd be wise not to lose what we have left - and denying the will of the majority is worse than any alternative I can think of.

    *It can of course be argued [and I would] that genuine democracy is a chimera when information flow is owned and directed by a small number of wealthy individuals. They clearly have vested interests and an agenda to pursue which can be [and often are] in conflict with the interests of the majority.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RelayerI View Post
    I did, and I'm still against our membership.

    With regard to what is happening I'm having some misgivings about voting that way. I'm still kind of idealistic, but this is a horrible mess...

    Edit : I'd rather we hadn't joined in the first place. It's looking like leaving will just be chaos.
    I think it was always going to be a mess; especially with those in charge of negotiations having no clear vision for what Leave would look like - even those [who have mostly jumped ship] who had a genuine conviction.

    I think what we have is a Gordian Knot in any case. Some Leavers actually think it's a simple thing to slash away and there'll be no consequences. The EU needs some fixing - I'm still of the opinion we were better placed to attempt that from the inside.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    The biggest disapointment is that ALL the governemnt , cross party , and that means ALL governement who have been appointed to represent thsi country , will NOT work together to get the bext Exit arrangement for this country ,
    You cannot undo the vote

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    The government doesn't agree with itself; with which wing of the Tory party do you expect the opposition to collaborate?

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2210 View Post
    The EU needs some fixing - I'm still of the opinion we were better placed to attempt that from the inside.
    If I'd thought 'fixing' it was achievable, I may well have voted remain. As I said earlier, Yanis Varoufakis writings nearly convinced me of that.

    The kind of ground up rethink necessary would change the nature of the EU hugely. I just can't see it happening.

    The most likely direction is ever closer structural and financial union, shared military and eventual merger. With the prevailing nature of it, neoliberal.
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    At the moment the EU's 'neoliberalism' is in many respects closer to social democracy than this country was even under a supposedly left-wing Blair administration.

    That's not by any means to say I disagree with your characterisation, just that I fear we're jumping from the hot oil receptacle into the burny thing.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    We appear to be pretty much two sides of the same coin. We're certainly not that far apart considering we voted differently.
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    I suppose that goes to show how nuanced the issues (rather than the debates) were. We may not agree on this, but there’s more common ground than not.

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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SeeTheDesert View Post
    There's been a system in place that a political arguement was made against and people believed the arguement. I happen to believe that tieing countries together economically has security benefits which can often be not as tangible as others but are nonetheless just as valuable valuable. People sre so spoiled they expect a perfect world. They expect something for nothing. I dont know about GB but in America we have millions who dont do what it takes to find good paying jobs but expect to get paid well. Vouple that with a system that favors the 1% and youve got lemmings ready to believe anything. Its immigrants fault i cant afford that new flat screen


    Enough of the 1% and who's making all the cotton candy?
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris2210 View Post
    The government doesn't agree with itself; with which wing of the Tory party do you expect the opposition to collaborate?
    Cross party means all goverment , all MP's working together

  19. #339
    SR Mega Yesfan Mr. Holland's Avatar
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sherwoodfish1 View Post
    The biggest disapointment is that ALL the governemnt , cross party , and that means ALL governement who have been appointed to represent thsi country , will NOT work together to get the bext Exit arrangement for this country ,
    You cannot undo the vote
    Quote Originally Posted by sherwoodfish1 View Post
    Cross party means all goverment , all MP's working together
    And that isn't happening? Wow....you could've knocked me over with a feather.....
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    Re: Brexit voters, please pay attention!!

    ...by the way; has anyone noticed that they took the word "gullible" out of the dictionary??
    Jon Anderson (2018 interview): "We live for one thing alone and that is to find the divine energy within you, that is connected to the divine energy that surrounds us"

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