Steve Howe on Jon and Rick ever returning to Yes.....

[Punj Lizard]

Like I said, it is a matter of different styles too, absolutely. That's one of the many things you, I, Steve and Trevor all agree on. We also agree that Trevor made YIND and ST completely sound like him, and vice versa for Steve and Owner. But that doesn't mean they're equally proficient at their instrument, and that they would be equally good at playing a demanding guitar part.

It's not an absolute measurement of artistic worth, but Trevor can play faster than Steve, and more precisely. That Al DiMeola lick that Rabin used to play in every solo? Steve couldn't play something like that to save his wife and kids. He used to do a similar thing in YIND, that peaked at about 1/3 of the speed Trev does it at. I feel a petty a-hole for pointing it out, but that's just the way it is. If Howe could shred like Rabin, we would have heard it by now.

I've always preferred Steve and always will, both his style and the albums he played on. But I play the guitar myself, and I can't help noticing that Trevor's capabilities go way beyond Steve's in many respects. That doesn't affect my taste in music at all, it's just a fact. The relative sloppiness is part of Steve's style. And it is relative; Steve is a very good guitar player by anyone's standards. It's just that Trevor used to practice ten hours a day from about age 4 and taught himself to score for orchestras in his teens. That kind of hard work and dedication pays off. He's soo professional, as Zappa would say.

I fully accept your point regarding Rabin's proficiency, speed, professionalism etc., and it's always refreshing to hear a fan of one of these guys praising the other. However, this reminds me of the type of argument we would have in school in the 70s about who was the a fastest guitarist. When The Sex Pistols arrived, those arguments started to look a little bit silly. The Pistols may have all been pretty crap musicians, but they more than made up for that by playing music that had fire. They made a storm and no matter you liked it or not, the energy was undeniable. Similarly, I doubt Eminem was particularly well-educated or highly literate, and you may not like what he writes about or how he writes it, but there's no denying his ability to use words to get you worked up. The point, of course, is that Rabin may have all the skills, speed, shredding power and ability, but all of that ain't worth diddley-squat if you can't turn it into feeling. I find much, not all, of Rabin's playing leaves me cold - I find it lifeless and exhibitionistic and showy for the sake of it. There are exceptions, and most of those have nothing to do with his proficiency and speed. I much prefer it when he uses his guitar in ways that have nothing to do speed and more to do with texture and feel. The solo at the end of Real Love is for me possibly the finest example in this regard - a solo Steve would be hard pushed to replicate though not because of speed or proficiency. Ultimately, as you said, arguing about proficiency is somewhat petty when considering artistic worth, as it's what you do with it that counts. And wanting Steve to say he's incapable of playing some of Trevor's parts really does not seem to me to be the right way to respect an artist of Steve's quality (that's the only thing you said here that I've really taken issue with, if truth be told).

[M-Class Planet]

If I have an issue at all with Mr Howe’s attitude towards the 90125 material, it’s this; as a musician who is being paid to perform to an audience, he is, in my opinion duty bound to give it all he has got to every single note he plays, whether he wrote the song or not. Can you imagine if orchestral musicians only raising their game their own compositions – what a ridiculous notion.

I play gigs every night of the weekend. If it was down to what I wanted to play, it would be first an formost, original material. If not that, then 2 hours of Metallica Slayer, Machine Head and Fear Factory. But the reality is, if I want my money at the end of the night, I have to play what the punters want to hear and dance to – most of which I really, REALLY, don’t like to listen to never mind play. However, as a musician, my jobs is to play for people and put my own taste ‘on the back burner’ (which interestingly is part of a line from one of the songs I hate to play but have to) and play each song with all the passion I can muster, so the folks who pay me, see me bursting a gut putting on a good show, getting the audience going nuts and book me again.

In a nutshell - it’s all about the audience and what they want to hear. If he can’t be approach the Rabin songs with the correct attitude then he should give back the relative amount of money he makes in those 6 minutes to each person who pays to hear them each night.

[turnround glider]

If I have an issue at all with Mr Howe’s attitude towards the 90125 material, it’s this; as a musician who is being paid to perform to an audience, he is, in my opinion duty bound to give it all he has got to every single note he plays, whether he wrote the song or not. Can you imagine if orchestral musicians only raising their game their own compositions – what a ridiculous notion.

I play gigs every night of the weekend. If it was down to what I wanted to play, it would be first an formost, original material. If not that, then 2 hours of Metallica Slayer, Machine Head and Fear Factory. But the reality is, if I want my money at the end of the night, I have to play what the punters want to hear and dance to – most of which I really, REALLY, don’t like to listen to never mind play. However, as a musician, my jobs is to play for people and put my own taste ‘on the back burner’ (which interestingly is part of a line from one of the songs I hate to play but have to) and play each song with all the passion I can muster, so the folks who pay me, see me bursting a gut putting on a good show, getting the audience going nuts and book me again.

In a nutshell - it’s all about the audience and what they want to hear. If he can’t be approach the Rabin songs with the correct attitude then he should give back the relative amount of money he makes in those 6 minutes to each person who pays to hear them each night.

Come on - you can't compare your own situation with Steve's. You have no record of your own in the history book of rock. If you had, which means some seminal things of your own to look at, you'd handle things the same way as Steve, believe me.
Furthermore, I might be wrong but I don't think too many people who come to Yes concerts do so because they want to dance.
And then some - you can, to some degree, dictate the setlist as an audience in a club situation, but you can't expect to do so in a concert hall situation, with an established act.

[Mr. Holland]

Come on - you can't compare your own situation with Steve's. You have no record of your own in the history book of rock. If you had, which means some seminal things of your own to look at, you'd handle things the same way as Steve, believe me.
Furthermore, I might be wrong but I don't think too many people who come to Yes concerts do so because they want to dance.
And then some - you can, to some degree, dictate the setlist as an audience in a club situation, but you can't expect to do so in a concert hall situation, with an established act.

While I agree with your general premise, I don't totally agree with that last sentence. An audience not dictating the setlist? You mean to say that ISAGP, Roundabout, Owner, YIND and ST are played (almost) each and every tour because the band so desperatly wants to? Don't think so......

[Mr. Holland]

I fully accept your point regarding Rabin's proficiency, speed, professionalism etc., and it's always refreshing to hear a fan of one of these guys praising the other. However, this reminds me of the type of argument we would have in school in the 70s about who was the a fastest guitarist. When The Sex Pistols arrived, those arguments started to look a little bit silly. The Pistols may have all been pretty crap musicians, but they more than made up for that by playing music that had fire. They made a storm and no matter you liked it or not, the energy was undeniable. Similarly, I doubt Eminem was particularly well-educated or highly literate, and you may not like what he writes about or how he writes it, but there's no denying his ability to use words to get you worked up. The point, of course, is that Rabin may have all the skills, speed, shredding power and ability, but all of that ain't worth diddley-squat if you can't turn it into feeling. I find much, not all, of Rabin's playing leaves me cold - I find it lifeless and exhibitionistic and showy for the sake of it. There are exceptions, and most of those have nothing to do with his proficiency and speed. I much prefer it when he uses his guitar in ways that have nothing to do speed and more to do with texture and feel. The solo at the end of Real Love is for me possibly the finest example in this regard - a solo Steve would be hard pushed to replicate though not because of speed or proficiency. Ultimately, as you said, arguing about proficiency is somewhat petty when considering artistic worth, as it's what you do with it that counts. And wanting Steve to say he's incapable of playing some of Trevor's parts really does not seem to me to be the right way to respect an artist of Steve's quality (that's the only thing you said here that I've really taken issue with, if truth be told).

Well, really in the end it's how, as you all ready say, someone's playing makes you feel. I think what Dallasman and I know what I was mostly reacting to is that often in the Howe vs. Rabin debate the Howe fans diss Rabin as just an ordinary (heavy) simple showy rock player. Even you in this post talk about "exhibitionistic and showy for the sake of it" and while that may be true for some of the live performances of Rabin, I don't think it's true for one minute when it comes to the studio albums/songs he has done with Yes.
But you have to keep in mind that the 80's were totally different from the 70's in the respect that the general 80's audience demanded something different from 'their' band then the 70's audience. The 80's audience wanted, moreso than the 70's audience, a show and entertainment with their music. Rabin apparantly understood this and delivered and so did the other guys (I mean like Squire wasn't "exhibitionistic and showy for the sake of it") in Yes or the tranisition from the 70's to the 80's would not have been as succesfull as it was. I think Rabin was very aware of what was expected of him and also it wouldn't have made sense for him to be and act like a Steve Howe clone. He needed to be different to be able to be his own person within the Yes rehalm.

I do however feel that in the studio, creating, writing and playing there are and weren't many that have the sincerity of Trevor Rabin to really make it something special and to make it all about the music. There he wasn't being showy or exhinitionistic at all, but rather one of the most serious and dedicated musicians that have ever been both within Yes as well as within the music bizz in general.

[Punj Lizard]

As usual, Arno, your comments and arguments are completely disarming (that's a good thing by the way!).

[Mr. Holland]

As usual, Arno, your comments and arguments are completely disarming (that's a good thing by the way!).

Pheeew....here I was sitting and thinking your arms had fallen of.....

[dallasman]

I fully accept your point regarding Rabin's proficiency, speed, professionalism etc., and it's always refreshing to hear a fan of one of these guys praising the other. However, this reminds me of the type of argument we would have in school in the 70s about who was the a fastest guitarist. When The Sex Pistols arrived, those arguments started to look a little bit silly. The Pistols may have all been pretty crap musicians, but they more than made up for that by playing music that had fire. They made a storm and no matter you liked it or not, the energy was undeniable. Similarly, I doubt Eminem was particularly well-educated or highly literate, and you may not like what he writes about or how he writes it, but there's no denying his ability to use words to get you worked up. The point, of course, is that Rabin may have all the skills, speed, shredding power and ability, but all of that ain't worth diddley-squat if you can't turn it into feeling. I find much, not all, of Rabin's playing leaves me cold - I find it lifeless and exhibitionistic and showy for the sake of it. There are exceptions, and most of those have nothing to do with his proficiency and speed. I much prefer it when he uses his guitar in ways that have nothing to do speed and more to do with texture and feel. The solo at the end of Real Love is for me possibly the finest example in this regard - a solo Steve would be hard pushed to replicate though not because of speed or proficiency. Ultimately, as you said, arguing about proficiency is somewhat petty when considering artistic worth, as it's what you do with it that counts. And wanting Steve to say he's incapable of playing some of Trevor's parts really does not seem to me to be the right way to respect an artist of Steve's quality (that's the only thing you said here that I've really taken issue with, if truth be told).

I had a hunch we weren't that much in disagreement. The reason I would like Steve (and others) to say/agree to that is partly just to give Rabin fair credit for being the monster that he is. I don't think the record's completely straight, as I still see comments to the effect that Steve is the greatest virtuoso who ever lived, while Trevor is a worthless hack, and it just gets up my nose. Not everything is a matter of taste. There are measurable abilities that are relevant to any sane definition of "good musicianship", speed and precision being among the more obvious. They're far from the whole story, but they do matter, and Trevor happens to be a clear winner on those particular scores.

And while I expect haters to be hatin', and the other band members to be diplomatic, it would just be refreshing to hear Steve say something like "No, I don't think we'll do (X Rabin song) I think it sounds too 80s, and besides, I can't do any of those widdly-widdly things, it's just too fast for me (laugh). Trevor has unbelievable technique, you know".

It would just be a nice counterweight to all his snide comments and general bug-up-assness about the Rabin years. Despite all the nice words, Steve still seems to view the Rabin era as a sellout, and is happy for Trevor to be remembered simply as "the pop guy" rather than as a remarkable musician. I don't mind if Steve hates 90125, but he would earn more of my respect as an artist if he'd said something nice about Jacaranda; an album that should be right up his alley. It covers a lot of the same ground as Steve's solo albums, but at least to my ears, in a more assured and dazzling way. That still doesn't mean I want Trevor back in Yes, but I think Steve could use some work on both his chops and his attitude (I won't go into dietary issues).

Anyway, thanks to all for a civilized and reasonable discussion. :-)

[Punj Lizard]

I had a hunch we weren't that much in disagreement. The reason I would like Steve (and others) to say/agree to that is partly just to give Rabin fair credit for being the monster that he is. I don't think the record's completely straight, as I still see comments to the effect that Steve is the greatest virtuoso who ever lived, while Trevor is a worthless hack, and it just gets up my nose. Not everything is a matter of taste. There are measurable abilities that are relevant to any sane definition of "good musicianship", speed and precision being among the more obvious. They're far from the whole story, but they do matter, and Trevor happens to be a clear winner on those particular scores.

And while I expect haters to be hatin', and the other band members to be diplomatic, it would just be refreshing to hear Steve say something like "No, I don't think we'll do (X Rabin song) I think it sounds too 80s, and besides, I can't do any of those widdly-widdly things, it's just too fast for me (laugh). Trevor has unbelievable technique, you know".

It would just be a nice counterweight to all his snide comments and general bug-up-assness about the Rabin years. Despite all the nice words, Steve still seems to view the Rabin era as a sellout, and is happy for Trevor to be remembered simply as "the pop guy" rather than as a remarkable musician. I don't mind if Steve hates 90125, but he would earn more of my respect as an artist if he'd said something nice about Jacaranda; an album that should be right up his alley. It covers a lot of the same ground as Steve's solo albums, but at least to my ears, in a more assured and dazzling way. That still doesn't mean I want Trevor back in Yes, but I think Steve could use some work on both his chops and his attitude (I won't go into dietary issues).

Anyway, thanks to all for a civilized and reasonable discussion. :-)

Put like that, I see where you're coming from. Basically, I see no reason why these guys can't appreciate each other. Admitting to perceived areas of weakness doesn't work for me unless, as you say, it's done in a light-hearted manner alongside serious appreciation of the others' abilities. Recognition and appreciation always makes for better working relationships, especially if there's disagreements to also be worked out.

[turnround glider]

While I agree with your general premise, I don't totally agree with that last sentence. An audience not dictating the setlist? You mean to say that ISAGP, Roundabout, Owner, YIND and ST are played (almost) each and every tour because the band so desperatly wants to? Don't think so......

Well all right, maybe the difference I played upon in the first place isn't so big then. Still I think there is a difference between an audience dictating the setlist and an audience being content with the band playing by and large what they wished to hear anyway. Having said that, I see that this doesn't seem to apply to everyone on this site, so maybe they're right to complain...I for one am quite happy with current setlists.

[pianozach]

If Tour Promoters were to make the set list:

Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout

Encores:
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout

[RelayerI]

If Tour Promoters were to make the set list:

Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout

Encores:
Owner of a Lonely Heart
Roundabout

And for variety, on alternate nights they could swap Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout for Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout...

[Mr. Holland]

And for variety, on alternate nights they could swap Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout for Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout...

They could through in ISAGP just for shock effect.......

[timv097834]

And for variety, on alternate nights they could swap Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout for Owner of a Lonely Heart and Roundabout...

Needs more Roundabout.

[downbyariver]

Tour promoters want the band to play it's big hits because that's what the average potential ticket buyer wants to hear. Maybe not the average die hard Yes Fans message forum poster, but the average person who's going to fill up the venue.

[TommyTopographic]

I had a hunch we weren't that much in disagreement. The reason I would like Steve (and others) to say/agree to that is partly just to give Rabin fair credit for being the monster that he is. I don't think the record's completely straight, as I still see comments to the effect that Steve is the greatest virtuoso who ever lived, while Trevor is a worthless hack, and it just gets up my nose. Not everything is a matter of taste. There are measurable abilities that are relevant to any sane definition of "good musicianship", speed and precision being among the more obvious. They're far from the whole story, but they do matter, and Trevor happens to be a clear winner on those particular scores.

And while I expect haters to be hatin', and the other band members to be diplomatic, it would just be refreshing to hear Steve say something like "No, I don't think we'll do (X Rabin song) I think it sounds too 80s, and besides, I can't do any of those widdly-widdly things, it's just too fast for me (laugh). Trevor has unbelievable technique, you know".

It would just be a nice counterweight to all his snide comments and general bug-up-assness about the Rabin years. Despite all the nice words, Steve still seems to view the Rabin era as a sellout, and is happy for Trevor to be remembered simply as "the pop guy" rather than as a remarkable musician. I don't mind if Steve hates 90125, but he would earn more of my respect as an artist if he'd said something nice about Jacaranda; an album that should be right up his alley. It covers a lot of the same ground as Steve's solo albums, but at least to my ears, in a more assured and dazzling way. That still doesn't mean I want Trevor back in Yes, but I think Steve could use some work on both his chops and his attitude (I won't go into dietary issues).

Anyway, thanks to all for a civilized and reasonable discussion. :-)

He could be a bit more complimentary about that period in Yes history and Rabin but i think that's unlikely to happen. From what iv seen Steve say about the period, iv got the impression that he resented Chris and Alan starting Yes up again, after only a few years before leaving Steve and Geoff the only members in the band after the meeting they had at the end of the Drama tour, effectively disbanding Yes at that time.
And just a few years later Steve sees Rabin step into the position that he had worked so tirelessly and creatively for in the 70s and never really wanted to leave behind. This new incarnation goes onto massive success, that left Steve a little resentful.

[RelayerI]

He could be a bit more complimentary about that period in Yes history and Rabin but i think that's unlikely to happen. From what iv seen Steve say about the period, iv got the impression that he resented Chris and Alan starting Yes up again, after only a few years before leaving Steve and Geoff the only members in the band after the meeting they had at the end of the Drama tour, effectively disbanding Yes at that time.
And just a few years later Steve sees Rabin step into the position that he had worked so tirelessly and creatively for in the 70s and never really wanted to leave behind. This new incarnation goes onto massive success, that left Steve a little resentful.

I thought that it was just that he didn't like the middle of the road commercial FM pap, but then again he was in GTR and Asia...

[Rabin105]

Tour promoters want the band to play it's big hits because that's what the average potential ticket buyer wants to hear. Maybe not the average die hard Yes Fans message forum poster, but the average person who's going to fill up the venue.

I wouldn't mind a just hits tour before people think i have gone insane lets review some of the hits yes really hasn't done in a while or needs to keep doing anyways

Cinema
Hold On
Rhythm of Love
Lift Me Up
Fly from here

I could go on but yeah all those singles sold well yet yes rarely plays them

[Olorin]

From what iv seen Steve say about the period, iv got the impression that he resented Chris and Alan starting Yes up again, after only a few years before leaving Steve and Geoff the only members in the band after the meeting they had at the end of the Drama tour, effectively disbanding Yes at that time.
And just a few years later Steve sees Rabin step into the position that he had worked so tirelessly and creatively for in the 70s and never really wanted to leave behind. This new incarnation goes onto massive success, that left Steve a little resentful.

I think you are exactly right!

[Mr. Holland]

Tour promoters want the band to play it's big hits because that's what the average potential ticket buyer wants to hear. Maybe not the average die hard Yes Fans message forum poster, but the average person who's going to fill up the venue.

While this bares some truth I think when they were filling 8-10.000 seats arena's this was more the case then now when they are filling like 1.500 seats theaters. The smaller the audience gets, the bigger the percentage of die hard fans will become.