Electronic drums

[gunsfornuns]

I'm wondering...

I really enjoyed ABWH and Bill's electronic drumming. But that's the main thing that makes me think ABWH is not a 'Yes' album.

I've also thought Bill is a more adventurous drummer that Alan, but Alan is totally suited to the band. I wonder if there would be another dismal period for the band if Alan was replaced.

So, what do you think? Would it be a good idea for Alan to use electronic drums or not? Could there be a particular song, now or in the future, that lends itself to electronic drums?

[soundchaser722]

I do not like electric drums. I don't like their sound & they just seem kind of cheesy to me- too much like using prerecorded music, the way they can be programed nowadays
My biggest dissappointment with the Union tour is that Bill was doing his electric drum thing.

[Dances w/PURPLE]

I have to agree with soundchaser772. I cannot say that I find the electronic drum sound something that I fancy. I much prefer the RAW sound of a drum kit.

[ANTIOCH]

Alan has used electronic drums before.
A 'triggered' snare in "Ritual", The intro to "Leave It" is totally electronic and I believe he could do with them whatever might be asked or needed. Having said that, i'm a purist and appreciate his desire to remain natural.

[1yesfan]

Cheesy is a good word. I do not like them as the sole drum section. A few added in with a normal set is fine.

[BlankReg]

Being a drummer myself, I felt the Union tour was very well done – Alan holding down the backbeat and Bill coloring things up with his electronics. Any listen to “Awaken” from this tour will testify to how well they worked together (IMO). But I agree that the one major thing I did not like about ABWH was the electronic drums. They just sounded too synthesized and fake.

As far as Alan using electronic drums, I would not want to see him use a completely electronic kit. But he has over the years (at least since the 90125 tour) used electronics to augment his setup, as recently as the Symphonic tour and the recent tours with Rick (look closely and you’ll see a row of Roland V-Drums above his acoustics).

For me, it must be acoustics for the main drum sound. But electronics are OK for those sounds you want that can’t be achieved with acoustics (like the car horn sound on “Don’t Go” – you can clearly see Alan trigger that on a V-Drum on the YesSymphonic DVD).

I love both Alan and Bill equally, but for different reasons. Bill, as you stated, is more adventurous (isn’t that what jazz is all about?), but Alan has become such an integral part of the band that I can’t see, at this point, Yes with a different drummer. It could happen, I suppose, but I don’t know who could replace him…probably an unknown who knows the material and can step in like Igor or Tom Brislin did. For me, Alan's departure would be a very sad day...

[headrott]

Using electronic drums was the worst thing that Bill Bruford ever did (IMO). I like them used to do all the other percussive instruments (only because you could not fit all the instruments on the stage!! :bncy: ). But, using electronic drums as your main drum kit is not the way for Bill to go (IMO). Bill is a drummer that used electronic drums and sounded his worst because of it. Mostly because of his style of playing and because I love the way his acoustic drums sound. Hopefully, he will not use them again. BTW, on the King Crimson concert from Japan in 1995, does anyone know if Bill uses electronic drums or acoustic drums? If you could let me know I'd really appreciate it.

Greg

[PO]

This same argument was made about electronic pianos (20 years ago), electric basses (50 years ago) and electric guitars (50+ years ago). When was the last time anyone ever saw Yes use a real piano? Drums are just the last to embrace (and understand) the technology.

95% of the drums you hear in adverts and such are electronic. They just use sounds of real drums, not the synth-type drum sounds. ALL of the pianos you hear are entirely electronic.

Electronic drums can play back samples of acoustic drums. It's not the drums themselves, it's the sounds you use to play back.

[BlankReg]

I could not disagree more.

The reason that 95% of the drums in adverts and such are electronic is that you don't need to pay a computer. Session musicians don't come cheap, and for jingles and such it just makes sense to use a machine instead of paying a drummer. In fact, most of the music in adverts is done by one multi-instrumentalist who plays everything except the drums - those are programmed.

But we're not talking about jingles here.

I am quite involved in live sound at my church, which uses a full band and a professional-level sound system (our Sunday attendance is 1200+). The drums for years have been electronic, in most part to control the stage volume. We have recently gone to an acoustic set behind a Plexiglas shield and the difference is amazing. Understand that the electronic kit was Roland's V-Drum series (the same drums Alan has augmented his kit with - see my post above) and is accepted as one of the most advanced electronic kits made. I've also heard the kit used in a larger, 3500 seat room and the sound was still very non-acoustic sounding. The main problem is you just can not synthesize the feel and response of a real drum shell electronically - no matter what the electronic drum companies say.

And don't get me started on electronic cymbals. Yech.

We also have a real grand piano - again, blows away the electronic piano we had for years. But touring with a piano is another thing - it's just not feasible to carry the instrument and hire a tuner in every town when an electronic piano will come close enough. But most recording studios use a real grand piano, not an electronic keyboard, for their piano sounds.

Granted, Bill's choice of sounds for his electronics was usually atrocious (when playing them as the main drum kit, as on ABWH). And maybe someday electronics will be able to duplicate the sound and feel of real drums. But to say that today's electronics can sound exactly like acoustics is not, in my experience, an accurate statement.

My not-so-humble-opinion. (Can you tell this discussion is close to my heart??)


This same argument was made about electronic pianos (20 years ago), electric basses (50 years ago) and electric guitars (50+ years ago). When was the last time anyone ever saw Yes use a real piano? Drums are just the last to embrace (and understand) the technology.

95% of the drums you hear in adverts and such are electronic. They just use sounds of real drums, not the synth-type drum sounds. ALL of the pianos you hear are entirely electronic.

Electronic drums can play back samples of acoustic drums. It's not the drums themselves, it's the sounds you use to play back.

[Sonoacustico]

hi!!
I must say I agree with BlankReg in most of his ideas. Personally, I love the electronic drum sound just almost like I love the acoustic drums sound, I believe if the people likes and dislikes a certain electronic drum sound, is because they have a preconceived idea of how percussion might sound like, and when people listens to other sounds they would feel a little uncomfortable with it. In the ABWH the idea for me was to have a different drum sound, more according to the times, and that cannot be reproduced with a simple acoustic drum kit. I would also love to listen those songs in an acoustic environment too (percussively talking).
As for Bill's set in king Crimson's 1995 tour, it's half Acoustic, half electronic.
And about Roland V-Drums, I agree 500% with Blank Reg, those are the most advanced El.Drums made, I remember the first time I tested them, I almost could not believe they were electronic drums, the approach was a lot more "natural"

Greetings

Claudio

[soundchaser722]

I agree as augmentation, electronic drums are ok- but an acoustic kit (IMO) is essential for the main sound.
I used to drum myself (many, many years ago), & i can certainly appreciate having percussive supplementation to an acoustic kit such as electronic drums.
One of the "issues' i have with electronic drums is that i've seen a few bands use them with programing involved where it ends up that the "drummer" isn't even playing what you're hearing. As the main kit, i just don't like the sound of electronic drums as well.
I've seen a few bands live that have used electronic kits & it was really easy to tell the difference. There's nothing that can compare to the sharp snap of a good snare drum live!!
I do agree blankreg- Union was well done, my dissappointment was in the fact that i really wanted to hear Bill on an acoustic kit. I saw the ABWH tour as well & had the same dissappointment.
Also, a good point was made earlier in that this was a discussion years ago regarding electric basses,keys & guitars & i for one am certainly glad the purists of that debate didn't win out!!

[PO]

Results may vary.

These are the same arguments given by keyboard players, bassists, and guitarists when "something new" comes along.

When microphones were first used in concerts, the theater and opera singers felt that mics were a crutch for poor technique. This was the earlier 1900's.

Bill and I obviously have had different results.

[Foot Print]

BTW, on the King Crimson concert from Japan in 1995, does anyone know if Bill uses electronic drums or acoustic drums? If you could let me know I'd really appreciate it.

Greg


Bruford used a mostly electric set; Simmons SDS7, on that tour. He had a few acoustic pieces including his snare.

[Sonoacustico]

Hello,
Regarding Bill Bruford's set-up used between 1994 and 1998, this is the complete detail of it:

Simmons electronic drums, Tama Starclassic Drums (yellow canary finish, black hardware), Paiste Signature Cymbals.

14" x 5½ Tama Starclassic maple wood snare drum
10" Simmons SDX electronic drum pads
12" X 11", 13" X 12" Tom toms
16" x 16" Floor tom
22" X 16" Bass Drum

14" Sound edge Hi-Hat
18" Power Crash
16" Power Crash
20" Flat ride
20" Dry heavy ride

Yamaha DX II
DW 5000 TE Electronic Bass Pedal

Drum heads: Evans. Hazy 300 Snare side; Genera G1 Clear toms; EQ1; G1 Coated Snare

Drumsticks: Pro-Mark. SD-4 Bill Bruford Signature

[gunsfornuns]

Wow. Thanks for all the input.

Looks like I can talk about something besides politics. Who'da thunk?

[Tonydess]

Back in 1984 I was appalled to read that Neil Peart,from Rush, was not only using electronic drums for the new album(Grace Under Pressure)but was going to bring them on the road for a tour.As it turned out they sounded fine on some songs from the new album(Red Sector A and Red Lenses).In other words-not too fake sounding.When I got to see the tour he brought new life to old songs with this approach,most notably Closer to the Heart.When he got to his solo,the drumset platform would revolve around to where he was playing the electronic rear kit.It added a new dimension to his drumming.I thought it sounded fine for ONE album and ONE tour,but he hasn't dropped them yet.Sometimes I wish he would bring back the extravagance to his drumset to include the gong and the standup church chime thingy he had going on in the past.As for Bill using them?I totally enjoyed the new approach he brought to older songs on that tour(ABWH).Especially Close to the Edge.By the way can any human being be capable of ruining the song Close to the Edge?I think not.

[Topographic][Sardaukar]

Bill's drum sounds on the Union and ABWH tour are annoying for sure to me, but Wakey's sounds on Tormato and the resulting tour weren't too hot either. Just because the sounds he used weren't the best doesn't necessarily mean the technology is bad or without use. I think at this point electronic drums should only augment an acoustic set but who knows, one day they might sound fantastic at recreating any acoustic percussion instrument (it would replace the need for giant gongs or timpani on tour) plus add a whole new depth to the sound through electronic enhancements.

[PO]

Keep in mind that 99% of the drums you hear on television and radio advertisements and such things are electronic. Even movie soundtracks use them extensively. Many times it's difficult to tell.

An even higher percentage of pianos, organs, strings, and brass in those mediums are electronically reproduced.

[Topographic][Sardaukar]

An even higher percentage of pianos, organs, strings, and brass in those mediums are electronically reproduced.
Unfortunately.



I think the absolute cheesiest use of electronic drums I've ever heard is in the theme from Phantom of the Opera. I can't help but laugh out loud when I hear this giant pipe organ and soaring strings and brass then, du du bah du du du bah... Even the new movie of PotO used them. I just can't understand.

[drummedup]

Bills decision to use electronic drums at the time of ABWH was the wrong move. They sounded like crap. Just a bad decision and poor choice of sounds. But it's Bill, and in my mind it's completely fogivable. He was just trying to do something different, probably spurred on by Mr. Anderson in some way. I think Bill was a bit misguided. He used electronic sounds before with Crimson and most of the time it was pretty cool. I think during the ABWH time, he was trying to get a big, "stadium" rock sound for Yes. That was the way it was in 1989....snare drums that went "CCCRRRAACCKKK". I am certainly glad that time is over.
As for Alan, I guess I still stand in the minority, but I think he is the worst and always have. I can think of hundreds of drummers who would have been better for the job. His style turned Yes into a leaden, weighty mess. No subtlety, no rhythmic interplay, no imagination...just ugly....and his drum sounds (aside from a Trevor Horn production or two) ugh!
I, for one, would love to see a new drummer in Yes....like ME!

[brotherofmine]

Well despite some people not liking them ..I loved the electronic drum sound. As previously said people have said stuff about the electronic organ in the past. I remember one point in the ABWH 'An Evening Of Yes Music Plus' at the beginning of the concert each member had their solo slot...and while Bill was doing his solo piece he kept slipping in bits of Heart of The Sunrise and Bill's drums sounded fantastic.

[looseidrummer]

some of the bad electronic drum sounds bill used were due to the limitations of technology at the time. they didnt sound like real drums but it was something new and different and percieved as novel and hip at the time. nowadays its possible to get very realistic electronic drums with programs like drumkits from hell and BFD, or get any crazy sound you want through sampling