bruford or white?

[Plastic Man]

bruford...his drumming just sounded a lot better, i dunno.

[haroldthebarrel]

I think this is like comparing Prince to Michael Jackson. What's the point?

White plays things Bruford can't even fathom, yet the same goes for Bruford being able to play things White can't.

What I think the main difference is:

King Crimson. Bruford played in King Crimson, which was doing some music far beyone the comprehension of Yes even, despite their avant-garde-ness. KC went to places musically that no band has ever even tried. They are truly the ONE unique band that has ever existed. They aren't Jazz, They aren't rock, they aren't pop. What are thy? The defintion of avant garde. But when Bruford was in, they only did a few amazing things. "Discipline", for example, being one of them.

Alan White on the other hand has done Relayer. An album (IMO) that overshadows everything that KC, ELP, or any other band did, no matter how brilliant they did it. The fact that White can still play Gates, is amazing and automatically qualifies him as the "greatest drummer alive right" now. Even Bruford would have a tough time playing the first 5 minutes of it. And had he stayed, Yes would not be the band they are, because Bruford wouldn't have done an album like Relayer. Tales is a whole other story. Only Alan White could have been on Tales. No other drummer would have done what he did, and this WAS HIS DEBUT appearance as a member of a band on a rock album pretty much. That says alot. And to those is says nothing to, his album before that was with Joh Lennon, so there! We're talking about someone who really gets the shaft as far as recognition goes.

His solo album "Ramshackled" is under-rated too. I think it rules. Not as much for the drumming, but for the songwriting. Bruford has been a pretty boring drummer considering what he has done since CttE. Every once in a while in his career, he does something memorable, but his most memorable stuff is with Yes and KC. But then again KC's most memorable stuff is without Bruford, so go figure. I think the same can be said about Yes and Bruford (with the exception of CTTE).

So anyways, Yes, Alan hasn't been the best drummer on the recent yes albums, but if Bruford was still in people would be saying the same, so it's really apples and oranges here, and taht's my point.


j;)e

[Plastic Man]

ok...i dunno, i just like brufords style more, like in the cd jackets hes always smiling and he looks like he had a lot of evergy, which, i would guess, transformed into his drumming. i haven listened to enuf yes to analize them thouroughly...but the reason i picked bruford is because of what he did in ctte, the song. its like what genesis did in selling engalnd by the pound, i guess.

btw, i listened to the more you know, i really like the build up at about the 9 minute mark :)

[haroldthebarrel]

I agree that Bruford has more style on CTTE, than Alan does, but I was just sort of saying that Alan is just as good, but in a different way. Like Phil Collins is. As a matter of fact Phil almost joined Yes, wouldn't that have been wild?!?!?!

P.S. thanks for compliment.


Joe

[PaulH]

Bruford has always been the thinking man's
drummer. His approach was always more cerebral
to White's more physical hard hitting "rock" drummer
style.
I thought that Bruford was great at the ABWH shows
that I caught, but never really looked comfortable
on the Union tour.
It seemed at times that he played the roll of back up
drummer on that Union tour.
I thought he played alot better and looked more
at home on the King Crimson double trio line-up
tour.
As fans we are lucky to have experienced the best of
both worlds.
Another aspect may be that White on tour is probably
a very laid back easy going guy..
I would imagine that Bruford's arrogance and very
british pompous self assuredness may have been a bit
grating at times.

[1yesfan]

I am not a fan of electric drums and Bill uses them. As it was siad here Alan is more a rocking drummer which is what I love.

[Aragorn]

I honestly never paid much attention to the drums in Yes until I saw how much debate there was over Alan and Bill. I think I do prefer Bill's style of drumming, he seems very light on the sticks. I guess that has something to do with his jazz background.

However, I have no problem at all with Alan. I think he is great, and surely in the same league as Bill and other great drummers. Also, his dedication and love of the band is a nod in his favor. :drummer: :thumbs:

[Afterimage001]

White seems to me more faithfulness for Yes than Bruford was !! Alan is heavier than Bill for rock!
My choice...... Alan
Afterimage

[SilentlyFallingFish]

That's a rough one. I really do like them both, although Alan has a somewhat more amicable personality and Bruford doesn't seem to have too high of an opinion of Yes fans (just check the NFTE archives).
Aside from that, stylistically they are just too different to compare, as haroldthebarrel said.
I loved the stuff that Bill did prior to leaving Yes (hate the electronic drums, however). I loved the stuff that Alan did on Relayer, Drama, and Keys; however, I found a lot of the 80’s and 90’s albums sounded perfunctory in terms of the drumming.:clap:

[Plastic Man]

what exactly are electric drums? which songs did he use them in?

[1yesfan]

Anything I have seen Bill playing on with Yes has been electric drums, not the usall acoustic set like Alans. Just watch him playing on the Union tour or the ABWH stuff.

[bjm0rwo]

Anyone who can come into a band such as Yes at essentially a moments notice during a tour and put his own style to material he had no part in creating without compromising the integrity of the pieces,deserves a little respect.Especially with a totally different method in use of his instrument.After all these years you would think that there would be no controversy at all in who Yes's true drummer is.Imagine the buzz if he decided to move on to other endeavors! Then maybe appreciation for this under-rated drummer would come to the fore.But I don't want to even imagine this happening.Just give Sound Chaser a good listen.Fantastic!

[fragilesi]

It's White for me now, Bill's liking for electronics leaves me hankering after the traditional skin-bashing approach. Somehow it has more soul. They are both just great as drummers, Alan is a true Yes man though, Bill's heart lies elsewhere.

Simon.

[Purple Wolfhound]

Originally posted by Afterimage001
White seems to me more faithfulness for Yes than Bruford was !!
Being faithful to a band is one thing, to be stymied and miserable is quite another. I honestly believe Bill felt he had accomplished as much he could musically with Yes. This guy wanted VERY BADLY to be in King Crimson. Better that he be in a band where he was content and felt he could make an equal contribution. Judging from what I’ve read about the CTTE sessions, that was not the case.

[Purple Wolfhound]

Originally posted by haroldthebarrel
As a matter of fact Phil almost joined Yes, wouldn't that have been wild?!?!?!
Or equally if not more wild was Bill Bruford joining Genesis for a tour...Now that’s what I call percussion heaven – especially the dual drum solo during Los Endos.

[haroldthebarrel]

I'd like to hear some of the Bruford with Genesis stuff. All there is officially released of this is Supper's Ready from Seconds Out.

But even then, during the instrumental parts, Phil would hop on drums and do the main beats, while Bruford was more of a percussionist. I know that Bruford only played on the Trick of the Tail tour, is there a widely available boot of this?

J:smksml:e

[yesskater]

haroldthebarrel - FYI

Official Bruford drumming with Genesis releases:

SECONDS OUT

"The Cinema Show" (Chester Thompson's on "Supper's Ready")

THREE SIDES LIVE (US Version post 1994)

"It/Watcher of the Skies"

GENESIS ARCHIVES II 1976-1992

"Entangled" (glock/maraccas only)


And, I have to give a slight edge to Bruford over White. Alan is a great guy, outstanding drummer, and total team player, but Bill was doing things in the early 70s that no one at the time could touch. Techincal excellence with a strong sense of feel. Sometimes having an likeable personality and being a brilliant musician does not go hand in hand. I give you Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker, for example.

[charl8e]

You know, the YES West/Cinema fans always say, Trevor Rabin saved YES, gave them hits, and so on... but if you think about it, it is Alan White who actually allowed YES to have major success in the USA... there is NO WAY YES could've become so huge in the 1970s with Bruford doing his avant-jazz thing... Alan White helped YES to become a stadium band, and without him it could have been a very different story (think Gentle Giant record sales)... i love both drummers -- all credit to BB for his innovation and his integrity, and all credit to AW for his amazing work on Relayer and 'Awaken' and for keeping YES funky & popular...

[1yesfan]

Very good point Charl8e. I never looked at it that way as far as Alan and his role in the group.

Yes: according to Chris Welch's 'Secret life of Peter Gabriel', Phil Collins thought to ask Yes for joining them when he heard that Bill bruford was leaving them.
Having heard for another group called Genesis, he decided to try playing with them, before Yes.


Ciao

[haroldthebarrel]

Actually, Phil had an audition for Yes, but didn't show up. Here's his quote:

"...I used to go and see Yes every week at the Marquee. I happened to be next to a bloke in the audience, who told me that they were looking for a new drummer as Bill Bruford was leaving to go to university. So i went backstage and introduced myself to Jon Anderson [Yes's lead vocalist]. He said 'Well, great man, great. Give us a ring on Tuesday and come down for an audition.' I never rang. I never went. I've always wondered about that, because I knew their songs backwards. I'm sure I'd have got the job and would have ended up in Yes." - phil collins.

[bjm0rwo]

Man,who knows where the band would of gone if he would of made that call!Drama may of been a top 40 alblum in r&b style just like Genesis delved into.

[1yesfan]

Just think, Phil and Rabin in Yes. WOW!

[Plastic Man]

yeah...but i still think bruford is better than white, i mean look at ctte and heart of the sunrise...amazing drumming. was drumming a factor in anything white did? not really. not in tales, gfto, nothing...but drumming was huge in fragile and ctte.

[ANTIOCH]

Plastic Man - listen to "Sound Chaser","The Remembering","Ritual","The Silent Wings of Freedom, all of 'Drama' ; Bruford's style is angular and White's is power.
Both are Great ! There should be no debate , Alan White is the drummer in 'YES' !!!

[bjm0rwo]

Sound Chaser alone should dispell any question about White's abilities.

[Plastic Man]

Originally posted by ANTIOCH
Plastic Man - listen to "Sound Chaser","The Remembering","Ritual","The Silent Wings of Freedom, all of 'Drama' ; Bruford's style is angular and White's is power.
Both are Great ! There should be no debate , Alan White is the drummer in 'YES' !!!
i will! as soon as i get ahold of those albums! but come on, look at heart of the sunrise...i could argue that bruford is the greatest drummer of all time from that song alone!

[haroldthebarrel]

I think Bruford's best drumming for Yes was on 'Fragile'. Listen to "Long Distance Runaround". Try to hit along with the snare drum, and not screw up once. The timing is so crazy in that song, anyone know the exact time signature for that?

Also listen to "Five precent for Nothing".

As far as Whites drumming goes, it's obvious that he was most creative on Tales, and Relayer. Try to tap along with any song on Relayer too if you must, you will see, unless you are a talented drummer, that it is pretty hard not to screw up all the time. I guess that is the way I always judge drummers, by whether or not I can tap along with their beats. But it's one thing to PLAY beats like that, it's another for those rhythms to come naturally, in you writing.


Joe

[Plastic Man]

just curious about ldr...theres like 2 versions of that song, one sounds like it starts out with bass guitar, the other sounds like it starts out with some sort of keyboard.

[haroldthebarrel]

The original from Fragile begins with guitar and keyboard at the same time. Never heard any other version other than live ones.

Maybe it's the single version or something?

[YYY]

I like Prince better than Micheal. Both are very talented but the difference is one was more progressive, experimental , innovative and unique. It's a great analogy and although I love
Alan, I think Bill would have become even more adventurous and maintained equal status with Jon, Howe & Squire if he'd stayed with the Band. He would have become as irrreplacable as they in the YES line up.

[Original_Shifty]

Did someone just mention Prince and Michael Jackson in the Yes Forum......I think I'm gonna :sick: oops, too late.



Sorry, just had to do that.

[Angkor WHO??]

This is a reply to holdthebarrel within this thread:

I totally agree that "Fragile" is Bruford's best work with Yes. He totally goes nuts at the end of "roundabout" , "Five percent for Nothing" is just awesome, and "Heart of the Sunrise" is extremely hard to play.
About your question on the time signature for "Long Distance Runaround": would you believe that the bulk of that song is in 4/4 time?! It's true. You can count 1,2,3,4 repeatedly while Bruford makes it seem complicated hitting the snare on the 1 beat, 3.5 beat and 4 beat all on different measures. The man is so good he gets bored with 4/4 timings. The 4/4 beat is a little more evident when you hear Alan White play it on the new live recording. Alan tends to "rock" it out a little more!

Happy listening,
Paul
--------------------------------


Did you know that Magnification makes a great stocking stuffer?

[haroldthebarrel]

I was not aware of that. I guess I have always had a problem with beats and time sigantures. I can understand them (being a musician), but can't name the timing by hearing it, I can only learn to play along with it.

For instance, I would have thought if bill hit the snare early it would change the whole count altogether, but the actual # the timing is in would be greek to me.

I have asked many a drummer to explain this all to me, and some have gone into great detail, but regardless, I am lost on the subject.

Here's to me learning how to count time!
:cheers:

[Olias_01]

Plastic Man...watch the ABWH video for a great example of Bruford having fun. Mind you I do find myself keep hitting the rewind to watch Wakeman playing Merlin at 19 to the dozen. The intro to Long Distance Runaround is beautiful.

[Plastic Man]

where can i find this video?

[Dragonfly]

I'm glad I was in the minority on this one. (It really is interesting to not see the results before voting.) I have a great deal of respect for Mr. White. I think the work he did on "Sound Chaser" alone is enough to list him as one of the world's greatest.

My choice, however, was less about who was "better" and more about who's style appealed to me personally. I happen to find jazz rhythms more satisfying than rock rhythms. I, therefore, picked Bill.

Dragonfly:yesbird:

[Plastic Man]

i could say the same thing about bruford on heart of the sunrise (that performance alone made me really like him).

[Original_Shifty]

Originally posted by Plastic Man
where can i find this video?

The only way I got a hold of this video is via ebay. The dvd's can be quite pricey, but the video wasn't bad.

[lindil]

harold, i must say your comments re w/ Crimson suprise me. I am not a drummer [guitar and voice and a bit of Keys], but I have been a big fan of bruford for many years. His work w/ Crimson is imo better than his yes work, a blatant exception being the drum/bass section eaarly on the studio version of HotS. His discipline and beat work w/ Crimson is in my ears the best drumming I have ever heard. I will sometimes listen to those albums and just follow the percussion. i do that w/ no other drummer! That being said i agree that had Bill stayed w/ Yes it would have not beenm so good, i think he would have done great on Relayer though and the ancient and Ritual, but Going for the One would have nbeen the [poorer for White's absence.
A poll asking who is better is really asking what style do I prefer. Both do exellent and boring work w/ Yes. I could fall asleep listrening to White on Talk. But Bruford is awsome on An evening of Yes music plus, if a wee bit loud at times.
White is very good at backing things like Wonderous stories and Turn of the Centurey and dealing w/ transitions as on Tales. As for anythiong that White plays, I seriously doubt if Bruford would be unable to learn it in minutes. He is the most sophisticated drummer in the world of progressive rock because he has trained to exacting jazz [and fripp] standards. Bruford could play Gates, but white would struggle w/ the Neurotica or Requiem methinks.

by the way are you the same harold the barrel from the Barrowdowns of yore?

lindil

[haroldthebarrel]

I don't understand why people think Heart of the sunrise when thining of Bruford's best drumming. Yeah, it's better than White's version of the song, but not even close to Bruford's best drumming. Bill's KC stuff is beyond HOTS in my opinion.


Barrowdowns of Yore?

[Topographic_Oceans]

We have moved from the King Richard/Moraz/Kaye/Igor debate to this now??

White is better than Bruford for 2 reasons:

(1) White is faithful and loyal and has not left the band like some of the other members who shall remain un-named.

(2) White does not use electric Def Leppard "smack" drumming like Bruford did in ABHW (or is it AWBW or AWBH?...oh fiddle feck). Bruford's "smacking" on this album ruined it.

BRUFORD: get rid of those electric smack drums! Now that's a good lad..

[Plastic Man]

Originally posted by Topographic_Oceans
(1) White is faithful and loyal and has not left the band like some of the other members who shall remain un-named.

that doesnt have anything to do with how good of a drummer the person is..

[Topographic_Oceans]

Plastic Man:

Perhaps, but can you refute the "smack" charge against Bruford?

[lindil]

So should electronic/synthesized keyboards likewise be banned ?
and electric guitars ; )

I recall similar charges being leveled against Dylan when he went electric.

I am not the worlds biggest fan of electronic percussion, but Bruford at times usesit - imo- quite well: 'The Meeting' and CttE on and 'evening of Yes music +' Although the snare is a bit loud in a couple of places. Bruford's drumming and the 2nd guitarist doubling Jeff Berlin are much of what makes that version some peoples favorite. He also uses it well - imo on ' the order of the Universe - the live one at least, I havn't heard the studio version in years. and as for leaving the band, that is such a complex issue, and we have only peices of for any given party, that it is pointless for us to go there, methinks. and I agree, this has nothing to do w/ drumming ability.

The White vs Bruford thing comes down to:
style, which is subjective--
and skill which while objective is hardly the type of scenario in which we will find musicians to test them unless you are auditioning - although one can attempt to say wether a given drummer plays better on Roundabout or somesuch, but againthat is really a quetion of style assuming no gaffs are made.

Another way though in which White and Bruford difer is there vision of the role of the percussionist. Bruford is much less of a 'support player' than white. Bruford's ideal is usually on wherein the drums are an intergral part of the musical expression, not a time keeper. Witness, 'the sheltering sky and satori in tangiers or the aforementioned 'the meeting during the Keyboard solo.

[Topographic_Oceans]

lindil:

Your points are well taken but for Topo, it boils down to "smacking." Bruford has been weighed in the balances and found wanting.

*smack*

[Ray]

What about this one: If White or Bruford is the ultimate Yes-drummer, which incarnation of Yes is the CLASSIC one:

1) Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman and Bruford or
2) Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman and White??????????

[1yesfan]

I would say that right goes to the lineup with White. He has been there for YEARS!!! And msot everyone on this earth that has heard Yes has heard it with Alan playing drums!

[Dragonfly]

I thought part of the definition of "Classic" was "old". How is it that "contemporary" might be concidered "bad"?

The "Classic" (as in "Classical Music") line-up was way back when with Bill. The "best" line-up? That's a different story.

Both Bill and Alan appear on the band's list of "Classic" albums.

It's a trick question!!

Dragonfly:yesbird:

[bjm0rwo]

Classic also means timeless.In which case both of these guys were involved in projects that will sound fresh to new ears for a long time.

[Topographic_Oceans]

Let's do what the Grateful Dead did. It was a wise decision. They also had 2 drummers:Bill Kreutzmann and Mickey Hart. Both were good so they just put them both in the band, and both played together on stage. I think Bill was on the left and Mickey was on the right. It was a helluva thing to see live.

Perhaps this will solve the dispute.

[Topographic_Oceans]

Here is what it looks like

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Frontrow/8677/dead/c-bj2.jpg

[TalesTour"74"]

Alan is a drummer that graduated from the school of Rock, with honors. His style is like that of thunder if he so chooses. He may seem to be faster and is much like the professor, but the professor is still tops in my book.

Bill is a drummer that graduated from the school of Jazz, with honors. His style is more introcate and refined. I actually wished he had been able to come to terms with his and Jon's ego, and stayed with the band.

To me Jazz is much more complicated than Rock because of syncopation. The more syncopated a rhythm is, the more complicated it is to play/reproduce. I prefer complexity in music. This is one of the reasons my favorite Rock is Progressive. Progressive Rock always leans towards the realm of complexity.

Between the two, Bill's much more in command of syncopated rhythm's. I love syncopation, so I prefer Bill.

Alan rocks and I would never want to take anything away from him, but I would like to have seen what Bill would have done over the years with Yes.

I like them both! :drummer:

My favorite tour was Union because you had Bill & Alan, Steve & Trevor, Rick & Tony and of course Jon and Chris.
(well except for the first one I attended that is, but only because it was the first)

What with, multitudes of key signature changes, syncopated rhythm's, a hint of country/folk guitar, symphonic keyboards, Lead Bass, and high frequency poetry, it's no wonder that Yes led the way in the progressive rock arena.

TalesTour"74"
spherebalance@fuse.net

P.S. You know what the shame is? That most bands have problems they can't resolve that ends in a break up. They're never quite the same afterwards. :neverlear

[Plastic Man]

i agree tales tour, brufords drumming just sounded better to me because it was more complex. and i have been to barnes and noble recently, they have these new headphone machines that let you listen to pretty much everything that was ever recorded. so i checked out some bill bruford solo stuff, that stuff is crazy! a lot of keyboards and crazy rythms and stuff, i love it. he got the keyboardist and founder of national health on there. i really like the song hells bells, its great. any of you guys heard brufords solo work? very progressive, makes a group like gentle giant look like the beach boys.

[Squireaholic]

harold: To answer your question about Bruford in LDR:
His timing is 4/4, but his accents alternate bar to bar, e.g.
ONE-two-thre-four-,one-TWO-three-four-,one -two-THREE-four-,
one-two-three-FOUR, etc.

As far as White's sense of accents, try to tap out the understated bit during the introduction, repeated again during the 'Listen' section!

[raz]

Alan White.
For two reasons really.
Firstly; he's a really nice guy. All the people who i've ever met who have met him agree with me. Bill, on the other hand, has the reputation of being a bloke who looks down on us fans as if we are something he would have rather no trodden in.
Secondly; His 'devotion' to the band. He's always stuck it through, thick or thin, and in my opinion, has been prepared to experiment with sounds, rhythms and beats to fit the whims of the songwriter. I mean, he took a back seat to a computer for some of the songs in the 80's and on Talk. That takes some guts.
OK, so on the 90125live video you see Alan playing the Leave It drums, but still, he was the drummer in the band and he was prepared to let a machine do his job. What my point? Well, it just shows that Alan is the kinda guy who would do something like that for the sake of the BAND as opposed to thinking of himself.... then again, Trevor Rabin may just have been holding a gun to his head at the time... who knows?

Comparing the two tho.... can't do it. It's like comparing Emerson and Wakeman. Both are awesome at what they do. Both can do what the other does, but in a different way.

Alan has, for me, been able to play Bills parts so well I don't even worry that it's Alan playing them.

As for Bill. On the ABWH tour, the show I saw at Wembely I heard/saw him goofy up one part of Heart of the Sunrise. He came in to fast on the snare drum, on one part and scared the life out of Steve Howe, got a 'LOOK' from Jon Anderson, and although I was about 20 to 30 rows back I could hear the expleative he uttered. It was quite weird to see that these guys can make mistakes.... proves that despite all his pre-programed drum sounds it takes timing to make the real things work.

[Plastic Man]

well, its heart of the sunrise, doesnt seem too out of the ordinary that he messed up. very complex song.

[raz]

well maybe so... but he just came in too soon on a part, which seemed to me a bit strange at the time. The show i saw was mid tour and i would have thought that they would have ironed out all the bugs by then.

[TalesTour"74"]

Does the fact that he messed up indicate he's incapable, or the degree of difficulty of the passage? Maybe he was thinking about the pretty bouncing blonde in the first row? Not professional mind you, but understandable (unless you're gay). Would other percussionists find the passage difficult or a walk in the park? Could other percussionists play it as he wrote it, would they just do something similar to get them by, or would they exceed his abilities by leaps and bounds?

You shouldn't judge someone because of a single mistake. Does a football player stink because he fumbled the ball after making 5 touchdowns? Does a baseball player stink because he struck out after his grand slam?

Then again, look how old these guys are. Steve's been looking real skeletal lately. I hope all the members enjoy good health for a long time to come.

Just thought I'd bounce a few thoughts around.

P.S. A lot of people have been saying that they think a particular player is better than another based upon his "perceived" loyalty. I think those people require a reality check. :confused: Loyalty can be viewed as such, but it can also be a safe bet!


Hypothetically speaking: if you thought of yourself as a mediocre drummer that happened to be with a successful band, would you, A) stay with a sure thing {which you happened to luck into because they were desperate} or B) leave for an uncertain solo career?

On the YesYears LD video, various members looked upon Tony leaving and Rick joining as a good thing, but they looked upon Bill leaving and Alan joining as a bad thing. Later in the video Chris says that for 90125 they asked Tony because he had gotten a raw deal when he was replaced by Rick. Most of the band members agreed that it would be extremely difficult to replace Bill. Chris even stated that he had to totally restructure his playing when Alan came aboard. Could his statement be a testament to Alan’s inability to play Bills rhythms??? It seemed that Chris preferred Bills playing. Hmmmmm....

Consider the fact that Chris has been the only constant!

[soundchaser]

I like them both. Equally.

They are different as night and day and really incomparable. They both bring something different to the YES sound and have equall merit IMHO.

However I think it should be added that White has been with YES since what, 1973? I think he's earned and deserves the position as THE drummer for YES.

Somehow I think Chris Squire would agree.

The Squire/White rhythm section has developed into a finely tuned machine over the years and I don't think that they want to part company any time soon. Some of the synchopated rhythms and off beat time signatures they do together is quite phenominal I think. They have developed a style all their own more advanced than the Bruford/Squire duo ever did IMO.

The only problem I had with White was his studio drum sound in the early days was somewhat muddy to my ears. Not as clear and pronounced as Bruford's was I think. But that has nothing to do with their playing abilities though.

BRUFORD=great drummer
WHITE=great drummer

just different

[raz]

Yeap, Soundchaser, I agree with you here.

[Dangermouse]

I like Bill; he always seemed more creative. Alan just kinda plods along.

[Plastic Man]

yeah, dangermouse. also, look at brufords solo albums. particularly feels good to me and one of a kind. both are very good albums, very progressive and instrumental. very "national health-ish," if you're familiar with that band (bill enlisted nation health founder and keyboardist dave stewart to help him out with some albums). i would recommend both those albums to any yesfan, as they are instrumental progressive (though a lot of the songs have lyrics). alan white...does he have any solo albums? well after a brief yahoo search i see that he does, but htis is weird, im at alanwhite.net, but it says his name is alan price...wtf, can someone check this out and tell me whats going on? well anywho, brufords solo albums are better.

[Plastic Man]

ok, im at brufords offical website now, reading some stuff. in the FAQ part of the site, one of the questions was "why did you leave yes?" so here is how bill answered, i thought this was interesting.

"2) Why did you leave Yes?

If memory serves, several reasons.

a) I wasn’t about to go through "Close to the Edge" again. It had taken three months of all-nighters, and if I knew one thing at the end, it was that I wouldn’t be able to improve on that effort with that group of people, so no point in hanging around.

b) I’d only played with those four musicians for the majority of my short musical career, four and a half years at that point, and I was becoming desperate to hear myself in some other context. I never subscribed to the notion that after a few hit records rock musicians were supposed to atrophy, become a laughing stock, and then just stop.

c) King Crimson beckoned.

d) I couldn’t wait for Chris Squire any more. The grossest form of insult any musician can bestow upon a colleague is to keep him waiting."

i used to be a huge bill bruford fan, but after dissing my man chris squire, AND calling yes a laughing stock...i'm not quite sure anymore :(.

[TalesTour"74"]

Originally posted by Plastic Man
ok, im at brufords offical website now, reading some stuff. in the FAQ part of the site, one of the questions was "why did you leave yes?" so here is how bill answered, i thought this was interesting.

"2) Why did you leave Yes?

If memory serves, several reasons.

a) I wasn’t about to go through "Close to the Edge" again. It had taken three months of all-nighters, and if I knew one thing at the end, it was that I wouldn’t be able to improve on that effort with that group of people, so no point in hanging around.

b) I’d only played with those four musicians for the majority of my short musical career, four and a half years at that point, and I was becoming desperate to hear myself in some other context. I never subscribed to the notion that after a few hit records rock musicians were supposed to atrophy, become a laughing stock, and then just stop.

c) King Crimson beckoned.

d) I couldn’t wait for Chris Squire any more. The grossest form of insult any musician can bestow upon a colleague is to keep him waiting."

i used to be a huge bill bruford fan, but after dissing my man chris squire, AND calling yes a laughing stock...i'm not quite sure anymore :(.

1) Was Bill referring to Yes and/or himself "being" a laughing stock, or "becoming" one if he stayed. To me it sounds as if he's saying that he would become stagnant if he continued with Yes. The problem with predictions is you never truely know what the outcome will be. Case in point!

2) Maybe Chris is slow compared to Bill. While his statement can be seen as rude, it could be true none the less.

Bill has always come off as a bit arrogant. IMO that is definitely one of his major flaws. I prefer humility.

Though he lacks in social graces, I still enjoy his abilities as a percussionist.

[haroldthebarrel]

yeah, dangermouse. also, look at brufords solo albums. particularly feels good to me and one of a kind. both are very good albums, very progressive and instrumental. very "national health-ish," if you're familiar with that band (bill enlisted nation health founder and keyboardist dave stewart to help him out with some albums). i would recommend both those albums to any yesfan, as they are instrumental progressive (though a lot of the songs have lyrics). alan white...does he have any solo albums?


Yes, Alan has one. And to tell you the truth, musically, and melody wise......It's a hundred times better than any Bruford solo album. Bruford keeps recording the same album over and over again, where White just did one great album and decided not keep pushing it. Especially because he was already adding all his ideas to Yes, the band we all are talking about at this website everyday.

[bjm0rwo]

Alan White's solo alblum:Ramshackled.Good alblum in which the melodies were strong and the drumming unobtrusive.Good luck finding it.It is very Un-Yes like even though Anderson and Howe are on one track.

[soundchaser]

I'm lucky enough to still have a copy of RAMSHACKLED. I thought it was a pretty decent album myself. It's nothing at all like YES. Just Alan basically jamming with old friends. Basically blues type stuff. No drum solos.

Alan is indeed more of a harder hitter than Bill. Much more laid back with more of a swing. Steve Howe I think summed it up by saying that Bill was always 'hinting' at melody with his playing style. YES always strived for melody over rhythm in the early days. Maybe this is why some of you consider Bill's playing more interesting.

One of my favorite White/YES albums is YESSONGS. Perhaps because he was new he was trying to make a statement. Indeed he did. His playing on CTTE is phenominal (especially during the opening section with Howe's wild guitar part). His playing on TALES (especially side 1,my fav) is smooth as silk.

I reitterate: I like them both

[Dangermouse]

I've listened to a few of Bruford's solo albums, and I've got a couple of his Earthworks cds around somewhere. They're pretty good; good background music for working around the house, on the car, or, for me, writing.
DM

[WhiteKnight]

I'll be extremely original and say I like them both.

Of course (yes... of course) Bill is more progressive. He is exploring past the boundaries of drumming technique, which is fine and definitely doesn't harm a progressive band like Yes.

But, if Bill has a problem, it is that he can only explore. He won't play in a way that fits the song best. He will always jazz and always be avantgarde whatever the others around him are playing.

While Alan's playing feels like he's more into the music and the group. To me, this is a most important thing in a band like Yes. All of them are outstanding musicians; but they also know when not to play, and when to just go with the music instead of trying to write a new page in the history of musical technique.

This attitude is one of the gems in the new work; Mag would have never been possible with Bill Bruford.

WK

[Steve Reynolds]

I have had the fortune to see AW and BB at various times and venues, including together!

But, I have only bumped into BB, an unfortuanate incident involving alcohol (in me), a public toilet, at a venue in Southend and a rather poor attempt at humour! oops.

Anyway BB, cannot be better, or worse, etc.

All I know is there both better than me, so that is it.

[YYY]

No need to defend Alan, I still love him

Again I'll never say that Alan isn't extremely talented. I just believe that Bill would have shined even more than Alan on Relayer and Tales. Look- if you put Bill's drumming style with King Crimson into Yes music, you'd have something that would be much more distinct, funky, jazzy and original. Alan is a good Rock drummer, but Bill was more innovative. Yes probably would have stifled Bill, but in a perfect world and if he would have stayed with them and been able to play to his full potential, I think Yes would have been better off than they were. and THAT I would like to have seen (heard)!

I am speaking in terms of musically, not personality.
Musically the CTTE year was the perfect ensemble. No question.
If they could have maintained their enthusiasm with the CTTE incarnation, they would have taken over the planet (figuratively speaking)

Also I always thought that what Yes needed and still needs is an incredible innovative percussionist in the band. Someone who is really proficient in (not only rock but) Jazz, Funk, African, East Indian, Brazilian, Cuban rhythms. To eccentuate that TRIBAL polyrythmic energy they used to have in their music. Jon has the feminine side wrapped up but they also needed balls at times. Chris and Steve can only do so much. A jazzy clever drummer could really light up the whole band.

[seyyes 2]

Good points,YYY...I haven't seen Yes for awhile...but I also wonder if they might warm up the concerts abit...a little like the opening of the ABWH tour...but definitely in the round,,,Anderson and Howe together first..hey!..maybe that new jazzy percussionist comes on next!!!(an additional member)...adds congas,etc......so on,so forth...but "In the Round"!!!!!!!!!

[PO]

If Heart of the Sunrise is Bruford's big accomplishment, that isn't saying much. It's not a very difficult song to play.

[umgekehrt]

ok, im at brufords offical website now, reading some stuff. in the FAQ part of the site, one of the questions was "why did you leave yes?" so here is how bill answered, i thought this was interesting.

"2) Why did you leave Yes?

If memory serves, several reasons.

a) I wasn’t about to go through "Close to the Edge" again. It had taken three months of all-nighters, and if I knew one thing at the end, it was that I wouldn’t be able to improve on that effort with that group of people, so no point in hanging around.

b) I’d only played with those four musicians for the majority of my short musical career, four and a half years at that point, and I was becoming desperate to hear myself in some other context. I never subscribed to the notion that after a few hit records rock musicians were supposed to atrophy, become a laughing stock, and then just stop.

c) King Crimson beckoned.

d) I couldn’t wait for Chris Squire any more. The grossest form of insult any musician can bestow upon a colleague is to keep him waiting."

i used to be a huge bill bruford fan, but after dissing my man chris squire, AND calling yes a laughing stock...i'm not quite sure anymore :(.

a) There is some truth that by leaving Yes and joining KC, Bill has evolved much more that he would had he stayed. While Yes is an excellent band and I love it more than KC, it can never be as adventurous as KC. Bill himself did not stay with KC for too long, preferring later to pursue a solo career.

b) If you're a musician in a band you will learn real fast that you have to make a lot of compromises. This is a team, and you can't always get what you want (as Sir Mick puts it). Have you ever wondered why so many artists make solo albums? Because they want to make something distinctly their own, and not have to agree to think about what the other band members want.

c) Feeling bored is very human, and if suddenly opportunity comes knocking at your door, you know you have to make a decision now.

d) I wouldn't take this as an insult. I'm sure Bill and Chris are two people who have a sense of humor and they like to throw jokes at each other. Besides, he would not be the first one to complain about Chris's tardiness.

[jimmygtr]

I love Bruford's work in ABWH!

[Timmo]

Bruford was technically a better percussionist, I think, and he was so totally suited for KC. His work on CTTE was mindblowing.

Alan is more "ballsy," and lends an earthy bite to the cerebral/spiritual Yes sound.

Alan added a balanced "bottom end" to "Relayer," which has the best rhythm section of any Yes album (in my not-so-humble opinion), and brings the later albums "down to earth" to a wonderful degree. As well as keeping "Tales" from becoming too much "in the ether."

Love 'em both, but I gotta go with Alan.

[cinderella]

Alan definitely! Love him! :valintine

[umgekehrt]

Alan definitely! Love him! :valintine
I'm gonna tell Trevor!!!

[jimmygtr]

If Heart of the Sunrise is Bruford's big accomplishment, that isn't saying much. It's not a very difficult song to play.

HOFTS was recorded in 1971 and Yes was basically Bill's first band. The key to me is to listen how much more vocablulary Bill has as a drummer through the years.