Big Genereator. A sell out album.

[The Closer Edge]

It seems to me when Yes wrote Big Generator they were writing songs only to have a hit album and not to be good songs. that to me is selling out. Big Generator is a stupid album.

[Thoughtbecontact]

You're treading on dangerous ground here. There were a lot of problems that surfaced with the recording of BG, but a sell-out album, no way. Not with pieces such as I'm Running and Final Eyes. The title cut, strange as it is for Yes, has an incredible amount of layering.

If you think it's a sell-out state your specific reasons. We respect well thought-out arguments, but please don't give blanket statements.

[Jackaranda]

They had a TON of problems with BG. As Chris said in YesYears, it should have been released at least a year before it was.

Problem #1: Trying to make a follow up to 90125. They've said the pressure was enormous to make the next album just as big.

#2: Jon and Trevor's Rabin and Horn had never really worked together in the studio. Remember, 90125 was 95% done when Jon came along.

#3: The castle in Italy was a bad idea. Apparenty Rabin's, it caught Trevor Horn off guard being in a place he wasn't familiar or comfortable with.

#4: Jon fought with Rabin; Rabin fought with Horn; Horn fought with Kaye; in the end, Horn was sacked halfway through the album, even though they had, by that time, moved back to Horn's home studio. They finally wound up in Rabin's studio and work with Paul DeVilliares (hope I spelled it right). So there were no less than 3 different producers.

#5: The music, or much of it, suffered as a result, and as stated before, it was grossly delayed, anywhere from 12-18 months. So, as Squire also said in YesYears, the timing was bad. Not to mention the long delay left many fans looking for someone else.

All that said, I like Big Generator and I think it has about 50% great material and 50% below Yes standards. Also, imho, releasing Love Will Find a Way as the first single was a huge mistake. Rhythym of Love was the big hit on that album, but by the time it was released as a single the album was dying. Still, "Rhythym" was the 2nd most played AOR track in the states in 1988.

I think they'd done it very differently had they been able to see into the future.........

Jack.

[BredYes]

Although The Closer Edge did not specific his reasons, I think he is partly right. I agree with all reasons of Jack, but I think they were very keen to have a new hit single. I think they were very happy with the huge succes of Owner (which resulted in huge sales of 90125) which gave them new fame and money. They tried to create a new hit single and lost some of the magic they had by doing this. They were not succesful because of the reasons Jack mentioned. BG is one of their weakest albums in my opinion.

[Mr. Holland]

I think it is a bit strange to say that BG was only created to have a new hitsingle. Allright maybe songs like Rhythm of love and Love Will Find a Way were put on the album for that reason, but that is hardly the case with songs like Shoot High Aim Low, I’m Running, Final Eyes, Holy Lamb. Those song are, in my ears, clearly album songs, not intended to ever be hitsingle. And in that matter BG is not different from any other album that Yes has done from GFTO on. There are always one or two songs on a Yes album, which are clearly put on there to be made into a single to draw attention to the album. Wonderous Stories, Don’t Kill the Whale, Owner, Hold on, Saving my Heart, State of Play, Walls, Open Your Eyes, No Way We Can Lose, Lightning Strikes, If Only You Knew, Don’t Go, are IMHO good examples of that. So, I don’t think they were out to create another hitsingle, just were trying to create a new album with the best music on it they were able to create at that time and because of all the surrounding problems Jack mentioned they simply didn’t succeed, although there are still some wonderful tracks on that album.

[BredYes]

I never said that all the songs from BG were created to become hit singles or that it was the only reason to bring out this album. Nevertheless, half of the album could be seen as efforts to have a new hitsingle (4 of the 8 songs: Rythm of love, Big Generator, Almost like love, Love will find a way) and that is far above the average Yes album. Their record company expected a new hit single from them, most of the band members want another one at that time, so it is not strange at all.

[Mr. Holland]

I don't think the record company so much wanted another hitsingle, but were aming for a big selling album again, since 90125 was the biggest selling Yes album ever. Thing is that Yes has never been a band that compromised in terms of writing and creating music to what a record company wants. They have done things in the past to please a record company, like renaming Cinema into Yes again, but I don't think pleasing a record company has ever stretched as far as them writing and creating music for that purpose. Yesmembers have, IMO, always written, what they wanted to write at that particular time, but the fact that their are so many headstrong characters in one band (and this goes for every line-up there has been) makes for the need for every Yesmember to comprosmise on what they have orginally been writing. This compromising sometimes works very well and on other times it has proven that it can be an obstacle to, as was the case with BG...........

[brismike]

At the time when this album came out and I listened to it for the first time, on vinyl actualy, and I thought it rocked.

Funny thing is . . I just put it on, .. I've got it on CD now . . and guess what?

It Still Rocks !!!

have a nice day :)

[BredYes]

Originally posted by Mr. Holland
I don't think the record company so much wanted another hitsingle, but were aming for a big selling album again, since 90125 was the biggest selling Yes album ever.

The only way to have the same album sales figures for BG as for 90125 was to include hitsingles. There was no "Owner" on BG so it sold 5 times less than 90125.

[Mr. Holland]

Originally posted by BredYes
The only way to have the same album sales figures for BG as for 90125 was to include hitsingles. There was no "Owner" on BG so it sold 5 times less than 90125.

I agree with you on that. The main point were our opinions are different is that you think, that the Yesmen really intended to write another hitsingle/album, I think they just wrote what they wanted to write, not having that intention.

[BredYes]

I think you are correct about the difference in our opinions,Mr. Holland, but I remember some quotes by some Yes members (especially Jon) that they really want another hit at that time. I will study my Yes books about this subject tonight and will report you tomorrow, OK?
They are the only one who know their intentions. You and me can only guess.

[The Closer Edge]

Ok what I ment to say about the sell out thing is that it sounded like on BG they were corporate songs written to make money and not written from the heart. Weather thats true or not it does not make this a great album. The whole albums is kind of a mess. It might have good material on there for some people but it's not the yes I know and love. Yes from 83-94 sounded like a different band with the same name and some of the same members. And BG sounds very 80s. A very dated album indeed.

[Thoughtbecontact]

Thank you for clarifying your stance on this CE. The thread kind of got away from its original intent, although the disucssion here among Mr. Holland, BredYes, etc. is very interesting. What you're seeing, CE as songs "not writte from the heart," as you put it, in other words, the "mess" is the turmoil that Jack Gowen correctly pointed out that went into the making of this album. Not written from the heart--I totally disagree with that. Written admist turmoil and rather unfinished, now that's valid. Is it one of the weaker albums, IMHO yes it is, but as BrisMike stated, it still rocks. And if you want to hear a very dated 80s song, just put on "Our Song" from 90125--pure 80s, nothing more.

[yessongs72]

OK,I will really get some flack with this,but here goes. Drama,BG,Union,Talk,Keys Studio,OYE....well I used them for my bird cage liner.;) But that's they way I have always felt about these albums.

[The Closer Edge]

Hmm Thoughtbecontact I guess But the sound they had in the 80s is not a Yes sound. And can you think of a worse album cover then BG? I mean that cover is so bland and cheezy. There are three different covers for it. One for the vinyl, the cassette and the cd. I have the cassette of this album which I only paid $3.77 for. I see this album used alot. Aparnatly it was so bad to people alot of people want to get rid of it.

[Erdy1]

I'm curious about this, Closer Edge, because to me Big Generator has some much more adventurous tracks than 90125. As for sounding '80s, it seems to have the same sound as 90125. And it's obvious that 90125 was loaded with potential hit singles, and that that was a motivating factor behind much of the music. If anything, it seems to me that Big Generator is a bit less comercial than 90125.

So, Closer Edge, how do you compare Big Generator with 90125?

[Mr. Holland]

Originally posted by yessongs72
OK,I will really get some flack with this,but here goes. Drama,BG,Union,Talk,Keys Studio,OYE....well I used them for my bird cage liner.;) But that's they way I have always felt about these albums.

Just out of curiousity, how many times have you listened to those albums?? (Just for the understanding, I'm not trying to make a some kind of point hear, just honestly curious!)

Oh, and Bredyes, looking forward to your report tomorrow!

[R'tanys]

I think that there are some very strong tracks on this album. There are also some very weak tracks. Certainly not the best effort we've heard from the guys, and I do think that there was the intent to make it a bit more commercial than a lot of the other Yes albums. There may have been some over-compensation due to the fact that the release of BG was three years after 90125. It's tough to build on momentum when you've got that kind of a gap between releases.
I like this one because of the ambiguity it suggests. Not nearly as pop as 90125, yet not really a return to "classic" Yes material. If anything, I think BG is more of an amalgam of the two directions. I think that gives it a unique flavor which is appealing to me.

[yessongs72]

Originally posted by Mr. Holland
Just out of curiousity, how many times have you listened to those albums?? (Just for the understanding, I'm not trying to make a some kind of point hear, just honestly curious!)

Oh, and Bredyes, looking forward to your report tomorrow!
Honestly 5 to 6 times....don't get me wrong if you all like this it's cool. but it's not Yes to me,thats where i'm coming from.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Originally posted by Erdy1
I'm curious about this, Closer Edge, because to me Big Generator has some much more adventurous tracks than 90125. As for sounding '80s, it seems to have the same sound as 90125. And it's obvious that 90125 was loaded with potential hit singles, and that that was a motivating factor behind much of the music. If anything, it seems to me that Big Generator is a bit less comercial than 90125.

So, Closer Edge, how do you compare Big Generator with 90125?

I'd like to know that too. And I agree about BG being more adventurous-sounding.

This morning I happily decided I wasn't gonna post in this thread, but I've found I've been thinking about it throughout the day. I even broke out my 90125 cassette for my car so I could fairly re-evaluate my own opinion before I state it.

I have ALWAYS liked BG more than 90125. Even after just hearing side 1 of 90125 I stand by my opinion. This could be a first impression thing, but Big Generator has always been my favorite Rabin-era album. Hands down. And if the band had too many problems surrounding the making of this album, I'm even more impressed.

Side two of BG is every bit as good to these ears as any Yes album side since Tormato and until the Ladder. (:eeek:!!) And I'm not a YesWest guy. I'm a "Trooper" (as they say) all the way. I don't share the opinion that Big Generator is a stupid album, not in the slightest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To each his own, but I can't really relate to such feelings of intense dislike for Yes albums, particularly from the same folks who are huge fans of the band. It's always seemed to me that Yes is incredibly consistent when it comes to quality. If BG or Union or OYE sounded like a Yoko Ono record or something comparably radical, I could understand it. But Yes is basically Yes every time. I don't get it. It's everyone's perogative to maintain their very own opinion of course, I simply don't get it.

How can one say BG is blatantly commercial, but not also say the same thing about 90125? They spent forever polishing "Owner" for radio, and incidentally I have no trouble with that at all. I love that track. It's beautiful.

It's naive to think a band should not be trying to sell records anyway.

[The Closer Edge]

When a band trys to write a hit single by touching it up and making it poppy or whatever I think thats cheating. The band should try to earn there #1 hit single not try to change there music so it will sell. It's like when you take a test and you really want an A but you don't want to study you cheat on the test for that A and it doesen't feel nearly as special if you study and earn the A. And 90125 might have been a sell out album but I just thought it was different because Trevor Rabin was in the band.

[Dances w/PURPLE]

My highly debatable argument and .10 cents of input.... the cover art is really, really, really,..uh, um, looks like the advertising for a battery ad.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Yeah that cover is hideous! Actually I don't like the 90125 or Talk covers much either.

Interesting perspective on making hit records, Closer Edge.

I can relate to your feelings that the Rabin-era isn't the Yes that once was. But I can't relate to your assessment that it's stupid. But whatever - you're certainly not alone.

Often it feels like I stand alone sticking up for the '87 thru '91 era! That's when I got into them, and I love all that stuff, ABWH included. Especially ABWH!

[Jackaranda]

This is just my humble little opinion.

BG great traks: Shoot High, I'm Running/Holy Lamb (I always have thought of them as one large song, like the way Soon ends Gates).

BG good tracks: Rhythym, Final Eyes.

Throw aways: The Title track, Love Will Find A Way, Almost Like Love........did I cover them all?

It seems a lot of long time fans like a lot of the same material on this album, namely the "album" tracks. So it's definitely not one demensional.

[The Closer Edge]

Actually I found the cassette of Big Generator at a Half Price bookstore yesterday and I decided to buy it since it was ony $3.77. And thought it would be cool to have because it was Yes. And I listened to it and I will admit there are some good songs on there but some of the lyrics are terrible. I mean come on Movin to the left/Movin to the right/Big Generator/movin through the night. What the hell man. Shoot High Aim low is pretty good so is I'm running and I think I will admit I like love will find a way.

[Faceintheplace]

That's bassically how I feel, "Closer Edge," I like the same songs off the album plus "Final Eyes" and "Almost Like Love" has always been a guilty pleasure of mine. Mainly I like it because of Alan's drumming and the horn parts.

And yeah, I really don't like any of the non-Dean Yes album covers except the British "Time and a Word" which I always thought was pretty cool. Very Dali.

Its too bad, if Yes were looking for a change, there were and are a lot of great fantasy artists out there who probably would love to have thier work grace a Yes album cover. I also think it'd be cool if Yes one day held a contest for their fans where either the fans would chose from say 5 different album cover designs for a release, or submit their own work. I think that could have some real cool possibilities.

[BredYes]

Originally posted by Mr. Holland
I agree with you on that. The main point were our opinions are different is that you think, that the Yesmen really intended to write another hitsingle/album, I think they just wrote what they wanted to write, not having that intention.


OK, Mr Holland, I studied some Yes books yesterday night. And the thruth is I could not find much details about their intention while making Big Generator. Again Jack's short analysis about the problems around the recording of that album seems true. But the question is: was their intention to write some hitsingles or not?
In Chris Welch book there is a suggestion that Jon, among other reasons, left the band after BG because he saw BG as "an attempt to make Yes a hit machine" (page 222).
It appears there was a lot of pressure on the group (from record companies and fans) to at least equal the success of 90125. While Yes was recording, the record company spread rumors that they were making a new "Dark side of the Moon". Such remarks increased the pressure on them. Together with bad personal relationships (Jon-Chris, Jon-Trevor, Trevor R-Trevor H), and recording problems (at three different places, with too much partying in an Italian castle) this was one of the main problems.
Trevor Horn (involved with the production in an early stage of the recording sessions) said the band was completely money driven at that time, however this was quite normal for a band when they are more than 15 years together in his view.

[Mr. Holland]

Originally posted by yessongs72
Honestly 5 to 6 times....don't get me wrong if you all like this it's cool. but it's not Yes to me,thats where i'm coming from.

That's cool with me! I know you're a big fan of the current line-up, witch leads me to the next question (I know this is all a bit off subject, hope your fellow Yesfans can forgive me for that.....), what are the reason(s) you don't like the Keys studio material, I mean it is done by your most favorite line-up and IMO it is very much done in a 70's/classic style...........

[Mr. Holland]

Originally posted by BredYes
OK, Mr Holland, I studied some Yes books yesterday night. And the thruth is I could not find much details about their intention while making Big Generator. Again Jack's short analysis about the problems around the recording of that album seems true. But the question is: was their intention to write some hitsingles or not?
In Chris Welch book there is a suggestion that Jon, among other reasons, left the band after BG because he saw BG as "an attempt to make Yes a hit machine" (page 222).
It appears there was a lot of pressure on the group (from record companies and fans) to at least equal the success of 90125. While Yes was recording, the record company spread rumors that they were making a new "Dark side of the Moon". Such remarks increased the pressure on them. Together with bad personal relationships (Jon-Chris, Jon-Trevor, Trevor R-Trevor H), and recording problems (at three different places, with too much partying in an Italian castle) this was one of the main problems.
Trevor Horn (involved with the production in an early stage of the recording sessions) said the band was completely money driven at that time, however this was quite normal for a band when they are more than 15 years together in his view.

Thanks for sharing this, Bredyes, I always love to know more about my favorite band. What surpises me about this is, when one of the reasons for Jon to leave the band at that time was that BG was in his eyes an attempt to make Yes a hitmachine, right after that he released a soloalbum, that can be considered the most commercial solo album he has done up till now. Normal reaction would have been to create something quit the opposite, but then again Jon can never be accused of being "normal", so....
About Trevor Horn, great producer, but he was thrown out at that time, and then you do not exactly have fun memories of such a period, so I don't really know how much to believe of what he is saying.
Even today, when a new Yesalbum would resemble anything 90125-isch, a lot of fans would probably feel that they were trying to create a hitsingle/album again, so maybe the reason for feeling that it was their intention to write hitsingles, lies within the fact, that BG sounds a bit like 90125, witch was/is their biggest selling album..........

[BredYes]

Originally posted by Mr. Holland
What surpises me about this is, when one of the reasons for Jon to leave the band at that time was that BG was in his eyes an attempt to make Yes a hitmachine, right after that he released a soloalbum, that can be considered the most commercial solo album he has done up till now.

You are completely right about this, I had the same feeling when I read this. City of Angels sounds very commercial. Even in 2003 I still hear Hold on to love in the supermarket sometimes. So it is a bit contradictory of our Jon. But hey, he is a human too.

Maybe he had enough of the commercial stuff after City of Angels and BG and wanted to do something else and created ABWH. But is is a bit strange.

[BrianD]

Just because Jon was producing very commercial solo work doesn't mean to say that he wanted Yes to follow the same path. So I don't think that is very pertinent to the question.

BG - to me its a hot and cold album. Some enjoyable tracks, some weak tracks but no 'great' tracks - nothing to lure me back to play it again. Too many tracks don't quite reach their potential.

[yessongs72]

Originally posted by Mr. Holland
That's cool with me! I know you're a big fan of the current line-up, witch leads me to the next question (I know this is all a bit off subject, hope your fellow Yesfans can forgive me for that.....), what are the reason(s) you don't like the Keys studio material, I mean it is done by your most favorite line-up and IMO it is very much done in a 70's/classic style...........


Mr Holland, I think what happened to Keys studio is there's no magic(chemistry). Thats why I beleive that they are touring so long without doing an album,you know,just getting the chemistery back instead of pulling one out of their butts.When I bought Keys Studio I was I guess to pumped,but it just didn't do a thing for me,So, thats why I don't care for Keys Studio,and believe when they release an album now it will be one of their best! Mt Holland thanks for respecting my opinion, And It Will Be A Good Day!

[Thoughtbecontact]

Hmmm, just reading this thread got me to thinking...

Could it be that maybe the guys don't want to play anything from the YesWest years because of all the turmoil surrounding the production of those discs? This thought is also prompted by something you said to me, Brian. Sometimes individuals tend to avoid what brings back bad memories.

Yessongs72, I need to ask you this. I know your stance on Rabin, but is there something else about the YesWest era catalog that bothers you? Specifically, what else do you find offensive (maybe that's not the right word) about YesWest music?

[WOLFman]

Realise this is an old thread, but while reading it I'm surprised at the criticism it receives - for me it's a GREAT album, with every track emminently enjoyable.

Yes, it had problems, and we've the wonderful Mr Rabin to thank for it coming out at all. As has been oft-implied, but rarely elaborated on, drugs were a huge problem at the time (for at least two members) and the decision to relocate to Italy (while, I believe, done with the very best intentions) was thus rendered misguided. The fact was, however, that certain people had to be virtually dragged through the recording process by Rabin. Had he been allowed to produce the album himself, from the outset, it may have been even better than it ultimately was.

HOWEVER... it is still a superb collection of songs. It was a great success, whatever detractors say (it sold thousands more than any album since, including the much-hyped, and now criminally-underrated, Union). The title track seems bizarre (although Jon, when performing it live, seemed to be able to take some higher level of meaning from it) but is good fun, and the rest - especially Final Eyes and I'm Running, are absolute classics. Holy Lamb hasn't been subsequently bettered as an Anderson ballad, which makes me wonder why it never gets played live. Yes, it should have come out a year before, but quite probably all this would have done would be to have increased sales - the quality of the product, I doubt, would have been much higher.

And any idea that Jon left in order to eschew a more 'commercial' sound would surely be rendered an anomaly by ABWHL and, in particular, ABWHL 2, which is just as 'poppy' as anything YesWest did. I think he just thought that, without Trevor, he could do 'pop' better. When he realised he couldn't, he phoned him back up, and from that came Union. Not that Jon can't do pop - I love City Of Love 2, I would have waited forever, If Only You Knew, Don't Go etc...

And all this 'it sounds so 80s' business - come on, it's meant to be 'progressive' rock - are you folk only happy when everything sounds circa 1972? How 'progressive' is that?

[Mr. Holland]

Realise this is an old thread, but while reading it I'm surprised at the criticism it receives - for me it's a GREAT album, with every track emminently enjoyable.

Yes, it had problems, and we've the wonderful Mr Rabin to thank for it coming out at all. As has been oft-implied, but rarely elaborated on, drugs were a huge problem at the time (for at least two members) and the decision to relocate to Italy (while, I believe, done with the very best intentions) was thus rendered misguided. The fact was, however, that certain people had to be virtually dragged through the recording process by Rabin. Had he been allowed to produce the album himself, from the outset, it may have been even better than it ultimately was.

HOWEVER... it is still a superb collection of songs. It was a great success, whatever detractors say (it sold thousands more than any album since, including the much-hyped, and now criminally-underrated, Union). The title track seems bizarre (although Jon, when performing it live, seemed to be able to take some higher level of meaning from it) but is good fun, and the rest - especially Final Eyes and I'm Running, are absolute classics. Holy Lamb hasn't been subsequently bettered as an Anderson ballad, which makes me wonder why it never gets played live. Yes, it should have come out a year before, but quite probably all this would have done would be to have increased sales - the quality of the product, I doubt, would have been much higher.

And any idea that Jon left in order to eschew a more 'commercial' sound would surely be rendered an anomaly by ABWHL and, in particular, ABWHL 2, which is just as 'poppy' as anything YesWest did. I think he just thought that, without Trevor, he could do 'pop' better. When he realised he couldn't, he phoned him back up, and from that came Union. Not that Jon can't do pop - I love City Of Love 2, I would have waited forever, If Only You Knew, Don't Go etc...

And all this 'it sounds so 80s' business - come on, it's meant to be 'progressive' rock - are you folk only happy when everything sounds circa 1972? How 'progressive' is that?

Great post, Wolfman! I always love to have more info. I have to say that BG is an album that is still growing on me. There really is much to be discovered in listening to that album. There so many layers that aren't obvious the first couple of times when you listen to the album, but are slowly uncovered when you listen to it more and more. And I have live versions of BG and Shoot High Aim recorded during the BG tour, that make me like those two songs even more. I never knew about the drugs thing you mention, I was always under the impression that Yes has always been a harddrugs free band. However, that does explain a lot about why the process of making this album was such a slow and stressed one and why the band in general doesn't look back on this album live in concert (all ready during the Rabin era this was the fact. During the "Talk" tour only ROL was played, while 6 out of 9 tracks from 90125 were played), it probably brings back quit a few painfull memories.
On the other hand, we're talking about 17 years ago, so maybe if the current line-up would dare to take on some of the songs, Steve and Rick might discover and Jon, Chris and Alan might rediscover that some pretty good music was made back then!

[JaneEyre]

Thanks for reviving this thread, WOLFman, as I'd never seen it.

I still listen to BG regularly. Some of the tracks I still enjoy very much, others not so much. My kids, on the other hand, love this album. It's definitely their favorite Yes work.

I'm curious... Never heard anything about drug problems with band members. Any idea who?

[The Closer Edge]

Yeah what drugs. I never heard yes did drugs? I always thought they were anti drug.

[JaneEyre]

I think TR said in an interview a couple years back that drugs were never of interest to him. He may have also very vaguely referred to someone else in the band having an issue with them.

Pretty sure I'm not imagining this......

[leqin]

Hmmm - interesting opinion.

I'd echo what ThoughtB says in her first post, but then add that you really ought to wait and hear the Rhino Remaster with extra material before forming any opinion as to what direction Yes happened to be headed in with the material and album and whether or not they had singles in mind.

What Rhino Remaster? - erm - ahh - yes - lets just say I have a friend in very high places who got me a copy and, even if it hasn't been released yet and even if some think Rhino have finished their little tour through Yes' back catalogue, Big Genny for sure has been spruced because I have a copy in front of me right now and Rhino very very definatly haven't finished giving things a fresh lick of paint.

[leqin]

I think TR said in an interview a couple years back that drugs were never of interest to him. He may have also very vaguely referred to someone else in the band having an issue with them.

Pretty sure I'm not imagining this......

Thats true and remember it well... wasn't it Steve Howe mainlines Basmati rice, or did he snort Uncle Bens Quick Fix :offtopic:

[WOLFman]

Drugs were definitely an issue for Yes in the period proceeding the 90125 tour - Trevor Rabin has been quoted on this more than once. While it's never a great idea to speculate on these things when you don't know the full facts, I think it's fair to say that a certain bassist may have had something of a bad habit in the time of the BG recordings (again, I think Trevor has elaborated on this - if I find where, I'll mention it here). Jon was also having something of an 'enlightenment' in this period, although whether this was purely spiritual, I'm not sure. As far as I know, Alan and Trevor have never had any problems in this department (although Alan certainly had no desire to be in Italy in 1986/7), Tony, again, I've only heard rumour, but whether his impact would have been any greater regardless, I've no idea. Maybe someone here knows more?

Anyway, again I'll reiterate - the final BG product stands, in light of the circumstances of its production, as perhaps the finest achievement of Trevor Rabin's distinguished career. As Rick Wakeman is fond of saying, Trevor was the catalyst ensuring there was a Yes following Drama. He deserves everyone's respect (and a guest spot on the Summer Tour, if not before!)

[WOLFman]

And another thing...

Sorry, I just get a bit carried away when I think YesWest (and Trevor R) are being unfairly criticised.

Trevor has made perectly clear that he had NO wish to repeat the Owner-fuelled success of 90125. While all that 'Dark Side of the Moon'-comparitory hype was, to a great extent, record company spin, it was based on the expressed desire of TR to produce a classic Yes album - no, not a CTTE rip-off, but a complete piece of music, eschewing to some extent at least the 4-minute 'pop record'. Where some people may have a point in saying with BG, Yes attempted to 'make singles', is with regard to the fact that the other members, particularly Squire and Anderson, were eager for TR songs not intended for Yes to feature on the album - of course, the main result being the presence of 'LWFAW' (still, IMHO, a fantastic song - I love the intro, and Tony Kaye's little synth break towards the end).

If Yesfans don't like the 5-minute 'single', fair enough - just don't apportion all the blame on Trevor Rabin. Of all the members of Yes in the 1980s and 90s, he was probably the one most concerned with protecting the legacy of the band, even if most fans (many of whom seem to think Anderson formed ABWHL simply to return to the 'classic style', when in reality it was simply the result of a good-old personality clash with, primarily, Chris Squire) will never appreciate this.

[Scooty]

And another thing...

Sorry, I just get a bit carried away when I think YesWest (and Trevor R) are being unfairly criticised.

Trevor has made perectly clear that he had NO wish to repeat the Owner-fuelled success of 90125. While all that 'Dark Side of the Moon'-comparitory hype was, to a great extent, record company spin, it was based on the expressed desire of TR to produce a classic Yes album - no, not a CTTE rip-off, but a complete piece of music, eschewing to some extent at least the 4-minute 'pop record'. Where some people may have a point in saying with BG, Yes attempted to 'make singles', is with regard to the fact that the other members, particularly Squire and Anderson, were eager for TR songs not intended for Yes to feature on the album - of course, the main result being the presence of 'LWFAW' (still, IMHO, a fantastic song - I love the intro, and Tony Kaye's little synth break towards the end).

If Yesfans don't like the 5-minute 'single', fair enough - just don't apportion all the blame on Trevor Rabin. Of all the members of Yes in the 1980s and 90s, he was probably the one most concerned with protecting the legacy of the band, even if most fans (many of whom seem to think Anderson formed ABWHL simply to return to the 'classic style', when in reality it was simply the result of a good-old personality clash with, primarily, Chris Squire) will never appreciate this.


Whoa! LOL...i think Chris was the last person to complain about Big Generator..besides the fact that it took far to long to record...he hasnt ever said anything besides the fact that Alan and hin recorded their parts diligently for 15 months or so..before the album came out..C hris has never ever had an issue with the "commercial" side of Yesmusic...he is willing to play whatever is deemed fit...he is a true consumate musician..and a big time suportwer of Trevor Rabin...never had a bad word or thought about him...
by the way welcome aboard :)
Scott

[WhiteKnight]

Actually I found the cassette of Big Generator at a Half Price bookstore yesterday and I decided to buy it since it was ony $3.77.

Aaaawww... so you started a Big-Generator-bashing thread after owning the album for 24 hours?.....

Plus... it really looks like you're basically criticizing Yeswest. You should look for the gazillion posts on Yeswest, and then add some actual new point....

Anyway, I agree with those that stated that BG is, in many ways, more adventurous than 90125 (although less "ground-breaking"). In my personal view, it is also much more "Yes" in a sense.

WK

[Mr. Holland]

Wolfman nor any other in this thread did imply that Chris had a problem with BG. Quit the opposite is true. I think if any Rabin era tune will be played on tours to come it will be due to Chris and probably Alan. What however is a good point in Wolfman's post is that many fans seem to think that it was TR who drove Yes to make more "commercial" 4-5 minute songs, when also my understanding from reading several interviews and books is, that it was more Jon and Chris pushing for that. In a very recent interview, Trevor states that for 90125, before Jon came in, they were working on an epic called "Time", witch very naturaly and graduatly (in contradiction to some later Yes epics) became a 20 minute piece, but didn't make it to the album. I agree with wolfman, allthough you never know for shure, that if Rabin would have been given carte blanche on BG, as he was given on "Talk", it would have been a different album. Proof of that for me is "Talk", where the band WANTED Trevor to take control, resulting in more 7-9 minute songs like "the Calling", "I am Waiting" and "Real Love" and ofcourse the epic "Endless Dream".
But in all honesty I think BG is fine as it is!

[ES-335]

I respect everyone's opinion, however, my opinion is that the term "sell out" is worn out and a relic from the 60s.

People change, the 80s were a different decade than the 60s and 70s. Yes changed, just like other bands such as RUSH ... etc ... I remember an interview with Jon and Trevor in the 80s about 90125 where they were talking about how Alan had "modernized" his playing style and adapted for the album, they were praising his ability to do that, so IMHO, they were trying to change, not to just crank out a money maker, but to actually change and try somethng new, or grow ...

I love the Rabin era albums, do I love them as much as the 70s albums? ... no ... but I love them just the same ... i am actually glad they did what they did, it gave us YES! maybe not the classic Yes, but Yes just the same

It can happen ........... CHANGES! ;)

over and out.

ES

[Mr. Holland]

People change, the 80s were a different decade than the 60s and 70s. Yes changed, just like other bands such as RUSH ... etc ... I remember an interview with Jon and Trevor in the 80s about 90125 where they were talking about how Alan had "modernized" his playing style and adapted for the album, they were praising his ability to do that, so IMHO, they were trying to change, not to just crank out a money maker, but to actually change and try somethng new, or grow ...

Very well put!! :thumbup: :thumbup:

[JaneEyre]

Drugs were definitely an issue for Yes in the period proceeding the 90125 tour - Trevor Rabin has been quoted on this more than once. While it's never a great idea to speculate on these things when you don't know the full facts, I think it's fair to say that a certain bassist may have had something of a bad habit in the time of the BG recordings (again, I think Trevor has elaborated on this - if I find where, I'll mention it here). Jon was also having something of an 'enlightenment' in this period, although whether this was purely spiritual, I'm not sure. As far as I know, Alan and Trevor have never had any problems in this department (although Alan certainly had no desire to be in Italy in 1986/7), Tony, again, I've only heard rumour, but whether his impact would have been any greater regardless, I've no idea. Maybe someone here knows more?

Anyway, again I'll reiterate - the final BG product stands, in light of the circumstances of its production, as perhaps the finest achievement of Trevor Rabin's distinguished career. As Rick Wakeman is fond of saying, Trevor was the catalyst ensuring there was a Yes following Drama. He deserves everyone's respect (and a guest spot on the Summer Tour, if not before!)

I give TR credit for choosing to work with people who (allegedly -- cuz how could I ever know for sure) have substance abuse problems. I'm married to someone with these issues, and it's tough, but it's marriage and I'm committed to it. But to choose to be with one or more people with those issues -- wow, my hat is off to you, Mr. Rabin.

Then again, maybe it was no big deal to him. Who knows. All that matters to me is that my kids think Big Gen. rocks!

[WOLFman]

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope and pray that he makes a full recovery, and that you can have many happy times together in the future. I have a relative who has dealt with a similar situation: it's been very difficult for them, but their love has kept them together and made the burden just about bearable.

You're definitely right - say what you will about his musical capabilities (I think he's a genius) but there can surely be no doubt that Trevor Rabin is a caring and considerate gentleman. Never, despite all the criticism (at times, from people in the band) has he responded with anything other than humility, humour and discretion. Sometimes I wish he'd just come out and blast all his detractors, but that is not his style - he's got more class than that (although if he wants to do a solo tour and show the critics his talents, I'd still consider that classy!)

[John Khatru]

Big Generator is certainly not one of my favorite Yes albums but it has its merits. I actually remember when and where I bought it...a few weeks before Christmas of 87 at a local mall record shop. I bought it on cassette... never did get the CD edition.

My reaction to the album now is pretty much the same as when I first listened to it .. not bad but it doesn't surpass 90125. They were definately experimenting on BG. The album does have a little bit of everything on it.

I think ES-335 makes a great point as well.. Virtually every veteran rock group/singer who came of age in the 60's and 70's and was still active in the 80's had "modernized" their sound/style in one way or another. Whether it was Yes, Genesis, ZZ Top, Heart, Rush, David Bowie, Queen, The Moody Blues, among others who had changed with the times. The one out and out sell out was when Paul Kantner jumped from his Jefferson Starship which then mutated into the god awful "Starship"

I don't think BG was a "sell out" album, but it is an album of its time. The problems behind it's recording, the change of producers, the wanting of to do something different from 90125 yet be radio friendly had a lot to do with it's schizophenic sound.

Out of the "YesWest" albums, for me it still ranks behind 90125 and Talk but if Rhino does reissue it, I may very well pick up a copy!

John