YesWest for YesWest haters

[Q]

To all of you who just can't stand YesWest ...

If YesWest had been Anderson-Squire-White-Rabin-WAKEMAN, do you think you'd have enjoyed it more?

And if for some reason Rabin returned and Howe left, could you handle it if the rest of the line-up were as above?

The ever-egalitarian Q

[tardistraveler]

Well, I'm not a Yes-west hater. I can handle most any lineup!

Yes, I do think the Yes-west lineup would have been stronger if Wakeman had been a part of it. Would be interesting to see what that would be like.

But, I am quite happy with the current lineup - and have no particular desire to see it change!

[Dragonfly]

"Yes" and "Yes" - though I don't really quailfy as a "YesWest Hater", either.

The second scenario almost happened. I'd like to see what Trevor would do with Yes after a few years of writing movie soundtracks. We can only speculate at how MAGNIFICATION might have turned out with Trevor Rabin scoring for the orchestra (leaving Steve to create the entire guitar picture.) I wonder, then, if with Trevor, Rick or even Larry working the orchestrations, what MAGNIFICATION would have been like with Trevor Rabin on guitars (without Steve). I can't really say if it would be would be better or worse. I ceratinly enjoy MAGNIFICATION just fine as it is.

:hippy: But these questions linger about in my wandering mind... :hippy:

Dragonfly :fly:

[Jackaranda]

And let us not forget: Rabin, apparently, wanted Wakeman for Talk. I'm still not sure just why he didn't appear on it (mgt. problems???).

Anyway, I've always wanted to see a line-up with Rabin/Wakeman. If Steve is there, all the better.....Jack.

(They did collaborate on at least one track: from Return to the Center of the Earth, on which Rabin plays lead and sings).

[Thoughtbecontact]

A Wakeman/Rabin collaboration with Yes? What things we could all talk about?

[Sheerah]

Does anyone HATE any Yes lineup?

I favor some lineups over others, but really, I love it all.

[gunsfornuns]

i don't hate the yes west lineup, i just think the music was substandard. who's to blame? who cares? they're making good music now...

[Q]

Sheila, there is a contingent of Yes fans (not necessarily YesFans) that hate Rabin to the point of irrationality. Those debates still rage on like wildfire on some Yes sites (though, thankfully, not here).

Jack is correct about Wakeman and Talk. Wakeman remained technically a part of Yes more than a year after the Union line-up disbanded. "Management issues" were given as the reason he walked away ...

Q

[yes_angel]

I adore the YESWEST line-up,I go with any changes YES decides to do,I guess by Rick not being around for a bit made me just go with the flow,but now I am a true "Happy Camper" with him being back again!!

[Martin Riley]

Having followed the trials and travails of a number of favourite bands for many years I think it is quite acceptable to be able to accomodate line up changes, even those which result in a drastic alteration of the bands musical style. After all, if there were no change there would be no growth, no adaptability to changing circumstances around the band. What happened with the 90125 line up can now be seen to have been right for that era.

Same with the Drama line up. There are Yesfans(including some on YesFans) who can't bear the thought of Jon not being in the band, but if that line up hadn't have happened I think Tormato may well have been the last work produced under the Yes banner.

[Q]

The musical combination of Howe-Squire-White, in the preparation for and execution of "Drama," was spectacular.

Imagine the musical combination of Rabin-Wakeman-Squire-White. Consider vocals later. What do you see?

I believe we will see interesting music from the Howe-Wakeman-Squire-White combination on the next album. But I wonder if there is real synergy in the Howe-Wakeman area (the melodic center and source of counterpoint). I am absolutely certain we would see astonishing synergy in a Rabin-Wakeman combination - and we all know what we think of the rhythm section.

Could Anderson work with it, lyrically and melodically? I hope so. Maybe someday we'll find out ...

Q

[Jackaranda]

Beautifully put, Q. Just exactly right.

[BredYes]

I think there is a lot of synergy between Wakeman and Howe, and both said this many times, for example during the last tour.
On the album Going for the one there are many examples of this (Turn of the Century) and what do you think of Madrigal on Tormato or some parts of Keysstudio and the Wurm section of Starship Trooper? I found it a bit strange that a Yesfan (Quantum) doubts about this synergy, because it is very obvious to me.
Beside this, I think the combination Wakeman-Rabin can work too.
As a respons on the first two question: Yes, I probabaly would like 90125 more if Wakeman was included , because he has much more to offer than Tony Kaye, although I doubt if his solos and all the fast notes would enlarge the commercial succes of this album. Probably Wakeman would make the commercial 90125 sound (mostly created by Trevor Horn) a bit too complicated for the big audience.
Question 2: I do not hate YesWest, I like 90125 and Talk very much, but I think that Rabin is very dominant and that he will change the music and sound very much. And I prefer classic Yes. So, I would handle a new Yes with Rabin but I strongly prefer the classic line up without him. And I hope to see this line up for the first time in my life next summer in Europe. I don't know the opinion in US, but in my opinion in Europe Yes is much more appreciated by their fans and the music press for their music in the seventies than the eighties.

[Earl Grey]

I'm the proverbial trooper. But I will continue with YES regardless of the line-up at this point. I do hope the current line-up continues for a nice long duration though! With at least 2 more albums.
I'm selfish, ...I know!

Earl:yesbird:

[RobAdams]

Ha Ha Ha!

Just put YES on it and I'll take it home! This has worked for me every time so far!

[Dances w/PURPLE]

I had to read this post just to get the thread head:

Yes West
for
Yes West Haters ( say that 3 X really fast)

[PeterCologne]

...about, what the recent Yes-lineup is worth. Hope, the new album will be out then. And I hope, it will be better than the setlists of the recent tour promises. I hope, this album will be more than a CTTE-or Going For The One-Revisited. I have hope, because Yes almost always surprises me in the end.

But basicly I am not so wild about the current incarnation of Yes. It is maybe the most nostalgic combination of Yes-musicians. And what they did in concerts during 2002 was a Oldie-show, for sure the best one, that is possible in the music-world, but it had nothing to do with the perpetual change I love so much in Yes. The change, that kept Yes always fresh and inspiring. So far it is only nostalgia. Can this lineup re-invent Yes again or will they offer us a Time Tunnel to the 70s. For my taste this would be a second-hand-Yes.

But we are talking about Yes-West and Trevor Rabin in this thread. And yes, a combination of Rabin/Wakeman could be really avantgarde now. The musician, who lifted Yes into the 21st century - 17 years before it started - mixed with Old-School-Wakey seems thrilling to me. And I think at least after the next album in 2004 hopefully it is time for a big change again. After the wonderful Talk I felt an era was finished and I wished Steve Howe to come back. Now I desire a return of Trevor. Would like to hear, how Rabin has matured even more in the last decade by making all this soundtracks. I think he would have a lot of new ideas to offer. And with Endless Dream from Talk for example he already built the bridge bewteen Close To The Edge or the Revealing Science Of God and new epic territories to discover.

On his new solo-album Skyline, Steve Howe, sounds tired and uninspired. Though, I did not hear Steve with the recent lineup yet, some of you wrote here, that he is really hot. And in yesfans I trust. So, a collaboration of Howe and Rabin? I don't like this idea. Both musicians want to have total control over the guitar-picture, as Steve once said. It would not work.

This a great and important thread, and the hate-theme, the West-Trooper-Debate seems to be essential. Is there one Yes-West-Fan, that hates the Trooper-Yes? I say - no. Can you love Yes without loving the Howe-Yes? I say - no. Yes-West-Fans are just richer. They have all those fantastic 70s albums plus Keys, Ladder, Open your Eyes and Magnifcation - plus those three and a half masterworks of the Rabin-Yes. Of course I respect everyones taste. But I just feel great with the double wonder, that Yes gave us: To have the possibility to choose and change between two masters, two geniuses. Only that life is too complicated to play around with this gift more often. I regret that.

Greetings

Peter

[Jackaranda]

They need a change. Some fresh air, so to speak.

A Rabin/Wakeman Yes, imho, would produce some astounding results. It could be what Yes has been trying to find again for so many years now......

[crazedyesfan]

i can handle rabin as long as there are no remakes of Big Generator....

[Jackaranda]

I don't think so. I agree with Peter. I think that particular collaboration could produce some very interesting results.

[Q]

Here's a generalization worthy of debate, for there are clearly two sides:

New blood has always resulted in new music that surfaced on tour. Reconstructed line-ups from the past invariably are nostalgia tours.

Under Rabin's leadership, the band boldly brought new music to the stage with every tour. With Sherwood and Igor aboard, the band paraded The Ladder, for better or worse.

With only veteran members, we get only a token dose of fresh music, and the band is clearly in nostalgia mode.

I also feel I should point out that the statement that "all Yes fans prefer Howe Yes or 'classic' Yes, or at least like Howe Yes or 'classic' Yes" is a wildly skewed statement, not supported by the objective data, for this reason:

By all the sales and tour data, YesWest was VASTLY preferred by the majority of those who have purchased Yes or attended a Yesshow. The band's peak of popularity demonstrates that YesWest outpaced Howe Yes or 'classic' Yes by a couple of orders of magnitude. These Yes fans are no longer active because YesWest is long since defunct. Of course the majority of Yes fans who currently inhabit sites like ours will make the statement that "all Yes fans love Howe Yes best," or some variation, because Howe has been back for seven years. If the same question were put to the Yes fan base in 1985, Howe wouldn't have stood a chance. Basically, YesWest is no longer around to defend itself.

The essence of this thread is the question, what would the Howe contingent have thought in 1985, had Wakeman been aboard instead of Kaye? I would argue that musically, Yes would have been closer to what the Howe contingent would have wanted, and there's no question but that Wakeman would have added tremendously to 9012Live ...

A final point: the "Talk" tour video from South America contains large doses of new music, with several classics interspersed, and has Jon saying in an interview, "That (the classic Yes period) was then, this is now ... " and White saying, "We all think this is the best Yes line-up."

If the present line-up were capable of producing music that could please the masses, I am certain that they would, and Anderson's tune would change. If they were capable of producing music comparable to "Close to the Edge" and "Fragile," they certainly would. They are a nostalgia band today because that is what they can do well, and the fans who prevail today are the fans who prefer that mode.

To do more, they would need some new combination. Rabin/Wakeman is simply one of many suggestions along those lines.

Q

[PeterCologne]

Originally posted by Quantum
I also feel I should point out that the statement that "all Yes fans prefer Howe Yes or 'classic' Yes, or at least like Howe Yes or 'classic' Yes" is a wildly skewed statement, not supported by the objective data, for this reason.

If you refer to my statement here, Quantum, I maybe expressed myself wrong. I did not want to say, that all Yes-Fans prefer Classic-Yes, I just ment, that all Yes-West-Fans, or, ok, the very most of them, also like the Howe-Yes-albums. I prefer all those Rabin-Yes-albums over a lot of the Troopers-album.

And yes, you re right, Quantum, Wakeman/Rabin is not the only possible mix, that could give Yes some freshness. Just one example, that I brought in sometimes: Billy Sherwood to me would be the best solution for the keyboards. Be it with Rabin or Howe on guitar.

Greetings

Peter

[Q]

I agree completely with your statement, Peter, that most of the current Yes fan base loves Howe/classic Yes in addition to YesWest ... my secondary point was that this does NOT apply the the entire Yes fan base across the past 30 years ...

I, like many Yes fans, came aboard during YesWest and found beauty in the old stuff ... but the numbers clearly show that people like me were, sadly, a minority ... most of the exploding Yes fan enthusiasm of the '80s abandoned the band and did not pick up on the old stuff ...

Q

[PeterCologne]

Originally posted by Quantum
.. most of the exploding Yes fan enthusiasm of the '80s abandoned the band and did not pick up on the old stuff ...Q

You are right, Quantum. I was just speaking about the Yes-fan-base of today, not the ones, who jumped on the train in the 80s and left sooner or later.

Greetings

Peter

[Q]

It's a shame, too, that this opportunity bore so little fruit ... I and thousands of others came to classic Yes and stuck, but so many never really got it.

Would the expansion of the fan base been stronger if the band had played more of the classics? Perhaps, but the truth is that they did offer a generous cross-section, if you look at the set lists ... the 9012Live video doesn't really tell the story ...

Q

[PeterCologne]

Originally posted by Quantum
Would the expansion of the fan base been stronger if the band had played more of the classics? Perhaps, but the truth is that they did offer a generous cross-section, if you look at the set lists ... the 9012Live video doesn't really tell the story ...Q

...some epics maybe would have given some of the new yes-admirers a more fascinating pictures. And a sfar as I know, Trevor wanted to play more of the classic stuff. But Jon and Chris didn't.

But it also might be, that a lot of those in the 80s new recruited Buyers were just overcharged by Yes-music. They were attracted by OOALH and maybe some other tunes on 90125, but the rest of Yes just was too strange for them. The more bizarre Big Generator, that lacked a real smash-hit, already sold much more less.

Greetings


Peter

[Thoughtbecontact]

Originally posted by PeterCologne


And yes, you re right, Quantum, Wakeman/Rabin is not the only possible mix, that could give Yes some freshness. Just one example, that I brought in sometimes: Billy Sherwood to me would be the best solution for the keyboards. Be it with Rabin or Howe on guitar.

Is this the post in question, Peter? I don't know enough about Billy Sherwood, so I have to claim ignorance here. You know I can live without Wakeman---after all if I couldn't would like like MAG as much as I do? Of course not. So I supposed I have to trust you here with the keyboard suggestion. Dare I?

But I must say that Quantum does put forth a valid point that yes, in its current lineup is somewhat of a nostalgia act, and maybe that's why ticket sales are down because the 80s fans find the old material too strange I suppose Rush would have encountered much the same thing if they decided to only play material from 1980 and earlier with just a smattering of Vapor Trails on the last tour.

Food for thought.

[Q]

TBC's point above is excellent. Yes demonstrates artistic weakness by shying away from material that isn't ancient and classic. Rush didn't make that mistake. Rabin never made that mistake.

Vapor Trails is so strong, it's practically a rebirth. It's the most significant rebirth in an articulate band in recent years, I would argue.

Rush has proven that 30-yr-veteran art rockers can come back, and come back strong.

Can Yes do it? Let's hope so!

Q

[PeterCologne]

Originally posted by Thoughtbecontact
So I supposed I have to trust you here with the keyboard suggestion. Dare I?

But I must say that Quantum does put forth a valid point that yes, in its current lineup is somewhat of a nostalgia act, and maybe that's why ticket sales are down because the 80s fans find the old material too strange

... tastes are different, Arlene, Billy Sherwood is different from Rick in his understanding of the keyboards. To me, Billy has more to do with Patrick Moraz, he sounds more urban and futuristic, maybe even a little jazzy sometimes - but natural too. Anyway, thanks, that you are willed to trust me.

Sure, Yes is pure nostalgia right now, but as far as I understand, they see this as the only chance to attract some more people. On my ticket for the Bonn-Show in July is printed: "Yes, Full Circle Tour, with Rick Wakeman." I don't know, to me this seems a little bit too smart. I don't think, that a more creative Yes would be attractive for more people. They only way to get back the masses, imo would be another a smash-hit, like Owner.

But for sure, I would like a more creative and fresh Yes, as Yes that takes risks again. They can do that, they proved that recently again with Mag. And there are millions of other ways to do it again.

Greetings

Peter

[Thoughtbecontact]

Maybe a hit wouldn't be such a bad idea. Look what it has done for Santana.