Earl Grey
09-25-2009, 09:09 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Lisaj59/IMG_5648.jpg
As promised, Tony Kaye sat down with me for another interview.
We had drinks and laughs at Buchannon Arms British Pub in Burbank, CA.
Tony tucked into a dinner of Fish and Chips and Stella Artois.
I settled for a liquid lunch of Guinness...
And once again, TK never shied away from a single question, elucidated the past, present, and future for us, and proved once more to be the most candid interviewee I've ever encountered. Here's to you TK! :cheers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EG: So Tony, I guess we could begin here with your views on the TALK album.
Your role on the album, as well as your feelings.
There are many rumors and unanswered questions around the album, as well as the tour.
I personally love TALK, and always thought it was quite a sea-change for the band. What are your thoughts on TALK?
TK: Yes. Well, I think that it was really Trevor's 'coming out'
album, in doing exactly what he wanted to do, particularly as the band was somewhat fragmented at the time: People doing things in other places.
Then we got the record deal with Paul Carson, you know, with the Japanese label.
Paul had formed 'Victory Records', and we were the first band signed to it, as we'd left Atlantic Records.
It wasn't as though the band had just come-off tour.
Time had gone by.
'Digital Performer' was just available, and Trevor dove into the digital age right then and there, as primitive as it was at the time.
EG: This was pre-'Pro Tools'?
TK: Probably. I don't exactly remember the genesis of which came first.
But compared to what it is now, the amount of tracks you could record on, and all the rest of it, it was a little primitive.
It was pretty much the start of Digital Performer.
But Trevor got into it, and learned how to manipulate it, which we'd never experienced before. So he was there at the right time, learned the process, and to me it was the precursor to what he did a couple of years later: Getting into film music, ...but in a YES way.
TALK was recorded in his garage, which he'd changed over from tape, to digital.
EG: There is some talk 'out there' that you had a hand in the production of TALK.
TK: In terms of co-production, that's stretching things a bit. But I was there every day, so I was part of everything that was going-on.
...And because it was recorded in his garage, it was a precursor of what's happening now: Everyone recording in their own basements, and the way we record now, except that you couldn't record drums, he wasn't set-up for that.
But it was a situation where we were recording in a very small space.
EG: Did Trevor put down guide-tracks first?
TK: Yes, he put everything down with a drum machine, then Alan came into A&M Records, when the tracks were pretty well set and composed.
Initially, Trevor came in with Jon, to get the Jon vocal influence, and manipulate things in a 'Jon-sense'.
The album wasn't written on a fifty-fifty basis, because the project was Trevor's.
EG: Did Trevor have everything outlined beforehand then?
TK: Yes. It was sketched-out in a simplistic demo-like version, and then we went to A&M with Alan, and he covered all the drums. Then we went back to Trevor's studio.
I think one of the criticisms at the time was, was that it didn't sound like the band had played together, and well, we didn't!
EG: Well, who does with digital now, anyway?
TK: Well yeah, but that was the beginning of the whole digital thing, and of course, YES in whatever fashion before that had assembled in a studio, and played together, even if things were changed, keyboard parts, or whatever.
I mean, even 90125 was played together in the way that it had always been.
And certainly after the TALK album, 'Open Your Eyes' and everything else were recorded with the band all together in the same room.
But TALK was fragmented in that way.
EG: It always seemed to me that TALK was Trevor Rabin's brain-child.
TK: It was.
EG: So how much involvement did the other members of YES actually contribute to the album?
TK: It really depends on how you look at it.
In terms of composition and arrangements, it was Trevor's album, because he was in his studio day and night, focused on this music, which we had to create.
So yes, Trevor was very much in control.
And then, once the drums were in place, everyone else came in and played their parts.
EG: Was Trevor's original concept realized, or did it snowball into something divergent from his original plan?
TK: I think it's pretty much Trevor's album. As good as it is.
And there certainly is some great stuff on it, for instance, 'Endless Dream': That piece of music was Trevor's original masterpiece, which I think, led into his going into film music.
EG: Do you think Endless Dream was Trevor's take on the proverbial YES epic, or was the sum total of the song a proto-film score?
TK: It was a little of both. I mean, in the end, you're just composing music.
And as has been seen in the numerous film scores that have followed, he is capable of producing that sort of thing on his own.
I heard some of that, you know, in the early days when he was working on film music.
He actually produced a lot of that in the same studio that TALK was recorded in, which obviously transformed into this amazing body of work.
EG: This was all done in his garage?
TK: Yes, then he remodeled the house, and remodeled the studio as well, as soon as he started making money doing film.
And orchestrally, the home demos were almost as good, and certainly unique as when he gave it to the actual orchestra.
So he was very capable of creating that soundscape.
EG: Wow! He should put those demo-scores as a boxed-set: I bet there's quite a few of us out there who would love to hear that!
TK: Oh, you mean the pre-orchestral versions?
Well... I'm not sure that's something that's ever, uh, going to be available! (Laughter).
But the soundtracks certainly are.
And so, you know, TALK was specifically Trevor.
I think, in many ways, it was very groundbreaking.
But, a little fragmented, in that it didn't sound like YES playing together in the studio.
EG: That does seem to be the biggest complaint about the album.
TK: Yes, if there is a complaint. The fact is, that we learnt it, we went on the road with it. And it sounded great.
EG: There are rumors that keep popping-up about other musicians hidden under the stage, playing things.
Billy Sherwood told me that he used to cue-up CDs and stuff. How many people were under the stage, and what exactly were they doing under there?
TK: You know, there wasn't a lot of that going-on, contrary to other people's analysis of it.
It has been suggested that I was 'miming' my parts.
And that just isn't true.
We did have a keyboard set-up under the stage, but it was mostly for vocals, string parts, and maybe some midi-bits.
EG: Which leads to something I wanted to have you clear up out there. There are those who say that you only played the Hammond parts live.
TK: Not at all.
I had a keyboard rig where the top keyboard was two octaves of samples, which was pretty high-tech at the time, 'EMU' sampling equipment, for 'Owner Of A Lonely Heart', 'Shoot High Aim Low'. Samples from Big Generator, 90125, and all of the sampling that was done on the TALK album...
I played all of that on stage, for the record.
And don't forget that Billy (Sherwood) was on that tour, and he was playing little keyboard parts, guitar or acoustic...
He was playing the stuff that I couldn't play at the same time.
But all of the orchestral and soundscape things that were impossible to play, because they were definitive sounds we created in the studio? Well, that was all on my left hand.
So there you go!
EG: You just destroyed a lot of on-going rumors there! And it was about time they were put to rest.
...I was wondering, which are your favorite tracks from the TALK album?
TK: Oh God! I don't know if I can even remember them all!
The one track that wasn't my favorite was 'Walls', which was a track that Trevor had written with Roger Hodgson.
It was slightly on the 'poppy' side I think.
EG: There were a lot of pop elements to that album though.
I always thought it should have received more air-play: Maybe it just wasn't something people were expecting to hear from YES.
TK: Yeah, which is, you know, the kind of pressure you get from labels and such.
Because, actually, from 90125, on, we had quite a few radio-friendly tracks.
But I think TALK would have benefitted if we hadn't given the labels such credence, and hadn't given them what they thought we should be giving them.
Trevor and I had spoken at length about that: About doing an album that was more reminiscent of YES's 70's albums.
And some of TALK did attain that, the long concept piece...
And if we hadn't pandered to that sort-of 'radio play' element, and had made it into a 'Close To The Edge', or one of the finer of the 70's albums, I think it would have been a lot better for YES.
...I remember when Trevor played 'Walls' for me, I thought, 'Yeah, that would be great for Supertramp'.
You know, it was a collaboration with Roger, and they didn't know where to put it: Was it going to be on the Roger Hodgson-YES thing or something else?
EG: Was Hodgson really being scoped-out as a lead singer for YES at the time?
TK: I don't know about the time, maybe 'Walls' was from before, or maybe slated for something after TALK.
I don't really know, as I wasn't involved with the Roger Hodgson thing.
But I don't think it really fit the album as much as some of the other songs did.
'The Calling' was really cool.
But I don't think 'Walls' really belonged in there.
It kind-of fragmented the concept that Trevor really REALLY captured in most parts of the album, as to the essence of the band in the 70's.
EG: Trying to latch onto a possible hit, rather than being organic about it?
TK: Yeah, instead of doing music without thinking about it. A lot of TALK was very difficult to play.
EG: I've often wondered about this: When Chris and Alan scoped Rabin out for YES, were they thinking in terms of Trevor as a great guitarist, or more as a potential 'idea man'?
TK: I wasn't in London at the time, but obviously they saw the potential of Trevor as more than just a guitarist, but as a singer/songwriter.
And he was to become the singer of Cinema, which turned into a very successful album, just with a different vocalist.
You know, the album did have the essence of what it eventually became, without Jon.
So yeah, I think Chris recognized something there.
...Maybe he just wanted to snatch Trevor away from ASIA! (Laughter).
But I'm not sure that's what really went down.
I think Trevor was a free agent, after having auditioned for Steve [Howe].
EG: I used to know an A&R guy from the old Chrysalis label, and he gave me a copy of Rabin's first solo album, this was back in the late 70's.
He told me that they were planning on pushing Trevor Rabin as the 'Next Jimi Hendrix'.
I hadn't heard the stuff he'd recorded with 'Rabbit' yet...
TK: Rabbit was a pop band, then Trevor came to the states, and signed with Chrysalis, and he was very VERY impressive.
I remember meeting him at his house in LA, after Chris and I had spoken.
Chris said this guy, 'Rabin', was going to join the band, and he wanted to know if I'd like to be involved.
I remember being very impressed with that album. He's [Rabin] an incredible talent, of course.
EG: Yeah, Trevor sort-of does it all doesn't he?
I think of him in the same terms as Todd Rundgren, only a better guitarist.
They are both very 'hands-on' producers though...
TK: Yes. And that's what the band needed at the time, when there were just four of us, and Trevor Horn was going to be the lead singer.
EG: Horn was originally slated to be the singer on 90125?!
TK: Yes. I think that lasted for about two weeks.
EG: And this was after you guys had found Rabin?
TK: Yeah, yeah... I don't know who's bright idea that was!
EG: So, I wanted to ask you...
What was happening during that little period during 90125 where you were in the band, then suddenly Eddie Jobson was in the band, and then you were back in the band?
What was that all about?
There's a rumor out there that you and Horn had, well, 'locked horns'.
TK: Yes. Trevor Horn and I didn't see eye to eye on practically anything.
EG: Examples?
TK: (*sigh*) Well, you know, I think it was just one of those occasions where two people just don't get along.
It was a personality thing.
He just didn't want me to be in the band.
Who knows why.
Maybe he had a preference for someone else to be on the keyboards, Geoff Downes perhaps.
I just don't know.
But it went on and on and on throughout the whole album, and then, on to the next album.
EG: Big Generator?
TK: Yes. In Italy, in a big castle, where we first started recording Big Generator, and uh...
The 'facilities' in the castle were just not that great, in terms of living.
EG: Castles can be pretty drafty!
TK: Yes it was quite the experience.
Cold and damp, and they turned one big part of the castle into a recording studio, and for one reason or another, we ended-up in there.
The rest of the band, they weren't very impressed with the living facilities, so they went out into various country houses surrounding the castle: Except myself.
I was making a bit of a stand on the amount of money that was being spent on country houses, Mercedes Benzes...
I felt that I had to make this stand, because I knew that down the line, when the album eventually ended-up costing a million dollars, that it was going to be very expensive.
The only other person living there in the castle, other than myself, was Trevor Horn.
EG: Just the two of you then? Damn, that sounds a bit like Tolkein's The Two Towers!
TK: He still had this thing I was speaking of earlier, some strange animosity for me.
Trevor Rabin and I had conceptualized Big Generator, co-written a lot of it.
We had actually recorded a demo of the album, from beginning to end, on one of those old Akai multi-track video-cassette things that seemed so 'cutting edge' at the time.
I was actually quite involved in the writing, and I was working with Rabin on the album from the start.
So I think that I was a little less easily disposed of when we got to Italy, as a lot of it was mine.
EG: Did you come-up with much of the material before Rabin was involved?
TK: We rehearsed here, in The Hollywood Hills, it was fairly chaotic in a lot of ways, but Trevor [Rabin] and I were always there.
We were the catalyst, and we eventually wound-up writing most of the stuff that went on the album.
...So as I said before, I don't think Horn could dispose of me all that easily, once we got to Italy.
We were living in adjacent bedrooms in the same castle, which was quite strange!
EG: A little Kafkaesque.
TK: (Laughter) It was a strange relationship, to say the least. He had no respect for me, and I had little respect for him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EG: Now 'Holy Lamb': That really sounds like a Jon creation.
TK: Yes, that was all Jon's.
EG: A beautiful piece by the way.
What about The Rhythm Of Love?
TK: That started-off from me and my drum-machine.
The riff and the chorus.
A lot of the songs on Big Generator originated in that manner.
'Shoot High/Aim Low' is another one that started-off in the studio with a drum-machine.
I came-up with that one as well.
EG: That's my favorite song from the Yes-West period: I always presupposed it was Trevor's, it's so 'guitar-oriented'.
TK: Well, it all becomes Trevor's generally, once you put guitars and the song on it.
But it was my idea, as all ideas have to start somewhere.
And Trevor was great, in that he took the ideas and would write great songs around them. He would write a great chorus, and take it somewhere else.
So, you have to start somewhere, but then you have to take it further.
I have great respect for Trevor as an engineer and a producer.
Perhaps some day in the future, we'll work together again.
With Trevor Horn, well, he had had great success and credits, and he owned two beautiful studios in London.
But it was just, well, a very very strange relationship between the two of us.
Now you can't deny Horn's success in recording all of those bands in the eighties.
I, along with Rabin, originally wanted Mutt Lange to produce 90125, but Mutt was too busy working on something else at the time...
The Def Leppard album, 'Pyromania': Which I played on, by the way.
I actually did the keyboards on the album.
As a producer, Lange was such a sweetheart of a guy, and such a pleasure to work with.
And there was none of the tension that was happening in the 90125 studio.
EG: So, if Lange had been at the controls of 90125, it might have been a better experience for you?
TK: Who knows how it would have turned-out with Mutt.
But, working with [him] was such a positive experience.
Particularly what he had me doing.
There were actually no 'keyboards' per se on 'Pyromania': What he had me doing was playing the guitar parts on the synthesizer.
I was doubling the guitar parts, we were multi-tracking everything with the guitars on top.
The synths were playing what the guitars were playing, in exactitude, ...so you ended-up with this great wall of sound.
But then, there were no actual keyboard parts in-between.
It took hours and hours, finding the guitar parts I could play with one hand, and then, multi-tracking them.
And that's how we got that BIG sound on 'Pyromania'.
EG: T.K. and Def Leppard. Who knew? Certainly not I!
TK: I don't think anyone knows about that. There aren't any keyboard credits on the album.
...So, going back to what we were talking about originally, with YES there are always ups and downs.
And eventually we ended-up at Trevor Horn's studio, after taking about as much of the Italian castle as we could.
We went to London, where it all fell apart, and came back to LA, where it all seemed to eventually come together.
EG: That's where we get the expression, 'YES-West', at least for that particular time-period of the band anyway...
TK: Chris lived here, Alan lived here, well, in Seattle, but close enough.
I lived here.
Jon was here much of the time, in between Barbados and Europe, but we all generally gravitated back to LA.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
EG: Well Tony, I'd like to hear a bit more about your favorite tracks.
TK: 'Shoot High': I really liked that one. And the song, 'Big Generator'.
EG: Going back to 90125, I was wondering about the song, 'Hearts'.
TK: Yes, we went into the pub one day, and I'd written that main theme you hear at the beginning of the song [Hums the main theme], and Trevor said, 'I've got a great chorus for that!'
EG: Did Jon have anything to do with the song?
TK: I think Jon thought he wrote the entire thing! (laughter).
...Judging from the lawsuit I spent 2 or 3 years on over that song.
But I don't think we should go into lawsuits here.
EG: Do you mind talking just a little bit about the lawsuits? Sorry, I don't mean to push you on that issue.
TK: Well, it became a big part of my life for about 3 years...
EG: There have been a few situations n YES where lawyers were involved.
TK: Were there other lawsuits?
EG: I'm not sure if it ever went to court, but there was some acrimony surrounding ABWH, where they wanted to call it 'YES'.
TK: I think we owned the name at the time, but then Jon left the band. But I think everyone still owned the name at the time.
EG: Obviously it was all patched-up during the UNION phase, but it was quite the rift during the interim.
TK: Well, I think in the main contract, the majority held the name.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To Be Continued!
Earl Grey/2009.:rightG:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Lisaj59/IMG_5728.jpg
As promised, Tony Kaye sat down with me for another interview.
We had drinks and laughs at Buchannon Arms British Pub in Burbank, CA.
Tony tucked into a dinner of Fish and Chips and Stella Artois.
I settled for a liquid lunch of Guinness...
And once again, TK never shied away from a single question, elucidated the past, present, and future for us, and proved once more to be the most candid interviewee I've ever encountered. Here's to you TK! :cheers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EG: So Tony, I guess we could begin here with your views on the TALK album.
Your role on the album, as well as your feelings.
There are many rumors and unanswered questions around the album, as well as the tour.
I personally love TALK, and always thought it was quite a sea-change for the band. What are your thoughts on TALK?
TK: Yes. Well, I think that it was really Trevor's 'coming out'
album, in doing exactly what he wanted to do, particularly as the band was somewhat fragmented at the time: People doing things in other places.
Then we got the record deal with Paul Carson, you know, with the Japanese label.
Paul had formed 'Victory Records', and we were the first band signed to it, as we'd left Atlantic Records.
It wasn't as though the band had just come-off tour.
Time had gone by.
'Digital Performer' was just available, and Trevor dove into the digital age right then and there, as primitive as it was at the time.
EG: This was pre-'Pro Tools'?
TK: Probably. I don't exactly remember the genesis of which came first.
But compared to what it is now, the amount of tracks you could record on, and all the rest of it, it was a little primitive.
It was pretty much the start of Digital Performer.
But Trevor got into it, and learned how to manipulate it, which we'd never experienced before. So he was there at the right time, learned the process, and to me it was the precursor to what he did a couple of years later: Getting into film music, ...but in a YES way.
TALK was recorded in his garage, which he'd changed over from tape, to digital.
EG: There is some talk 'out there' that you had a hand in the production of TALK.
TK: In terms of co-production, that's stretching things a bit. But I was there every day, so I was part of everything that was going-on.
...And because it was recorded in his garage, it was a precursor of what's happening now: Everyone recording in their own basements, and the way we record now, except that you couldn't record drums, he wasn't set-up for that.
But it was a situation where we were recording in a very small space.
EG: Did Trevor put down guide-tracks first?
TK: Yes, he put everything down with a drum machine, then Alan came into A&M Records, when the tracks were pretty well set and composed.
Initially, Trevor came in with Jon, to get the Jon vocal influence, and manipulate things in a 'Jon-sense'.
The album wasn't written on a fifty-fifty basis, because the project was Trevor's.
EG: Did Trevor have everything outlined beforehand then?
TK: Yes. It was sketched-out in a simplistic demo-like version, and then we went to A&M with Alan, and he covered all the drums. Then we went back to Trevor's studio.
I think one of the criticisms at the time was, was that it didn't sound like the band had played together, and well, we didn't!
EG: Well, who does with digital now, anyway?
TK: Well yeah, but that was the beginning of the whole digital thing, and of course, YES in whatever fashion before that had assembled in a studio, and played together, even if things were changed, keyboard parts, or whatever.
I mean, even 90125 was played together in the way that it had always been.
And certainly after the TALK album, 'Open Your Eyes' and everything else were recorded with the band all together in the same room.
But TALK was fragmented in that way.
EG: It always seemed to me that TALK was Trevor Rabin's brain-child.
TK: It was.
EG: So how much involvement did the other members of YES actually contribute to the album?
TK: It really depends on how you look at it.
In terms of composition and arrangements, it was Trevor's album, because he was in his studio day and night, focused on this music, which we had to create.
So yes, Trevor was very much in control.
And then, once the drums were in place, everyone else came in and played their parts.
EG: Was Trevor's original concept realized, or did it snowball into something divergent from his original plan?
TK: I think it's pretty much Trevor's album. As good as it is.
And there certainly is some great stuff on it, for instance, 'Endless Dream': That piece of music was Trevor's original masterpiece, which I think, led into his going into film music.
EG: Do you think Endless Dream was Trevor's take on the proverbial YES epic, or was the sum total of the song a proto-film score?
TK: It was a little of both. I mean, in the end, you're just composing music.
And as has been seen in the numerous film scores that have followed, he is capable of producing that sort of thing on his own.
I heard some of that, you know, in the early days when he was working on film music.
He actually produced a lot of that in the same studio that TALK was recorded in, which obviously transformed into this amazing body of work.
EG: This was all done in his garage?
TK: Yes, then he remodeled the house, and remodeled the studio as well, as soon as he started making money doing film.
And orchestrally, the home demos were almost as good, and certainly unique as when he gave it to the actual orchestra.
So he was very capable of creating that soundscape.
EG: Wow! He should put those demo-scores as a boxed-set: I bet there's quite a few of us out there who would love to hear that!
TK: Oh, you mean the pre-orchestral versions?
Well... I'm not sure that's something that's ever, uh, going to be available! (Laughter).
But the soundtracks certainly are.
And so, you know, TALK was specifically Trevor.
I think, in many ways, it was very groundbreaking.
But, a little fragmented, in that it didn't sound like YES playing together in the studio.
EG: That does seem to be the biggest complaint about the album.
TK: Yes, if there is a complaint. The fact is, that we learnt it, we went on the road with it. And it sounded great.
EG: There are rumors that keep popping-up about other musicians hidden under the stage, playing things.
Billy Sherwood told me that he used to cue-up CDs and stuff. How many people were under the stage, and what exactly were they doing under there?
TK: You know, there wasn't a lot of that going-on, contrary to other people's analysis of it.
It has been suggested that I was 'miming' my parts.
And that just isn't true.
We did have a keyboard set-up under the stage, but it was mostly for vocals, string parts, and maybe some midi-bits.
EG: Which leads to something I wanted to have you clear up out there. There are those who say that you only played the Hammond parts live.
TK: Not at all.
I had a keyboard rig where the top keyboard was two octaves of samples, which was pretty high-tech at the time, 'EMU' sampling equipment, for 'Owner Of A Lonely Heart', 'Shoot High Aim Low'. Samples from Big Generator, 90125, and all of the sampling that was done on the TALK album...
I played all of that on stage, for the record.
And don't forget that Billy (Sherwood) was on that tour, and he was playing little keyboard parts, guitar or acoustic...
He was playing the stuff that I couldn't play at the same time.
But all of the orchestral and soundscape things that were impossible to play, because they were definitive sounds we created in the studio? Well, that was all on my left hand.
So there you go!
EG: You just destroyed a lot of on-going rumors there! And it was about time they were put to rest.
...I was wondering, which are your favorite tracks from the TALK album?
TK: Oh God! I don't know if I can even remember them all!
The one track that wasn't my favorite was 'Walls', which was a track that Trevor had written with Roger Hodgson.
It was slightly on the 'poppy' side I think.
EG: There were a lot of pop elements to that album though.
I always thought it should have received more air-play: Maybe it just wasn't something people were expecting to hear from YES.
TK: Yeah, which is, you know, the kind of pressure you get from labels and such.
Because, actually, from 90125, on, we had quite a few radio-friendly tracks.
But I think TALK would have benefitted if we hadn't given the labels such credence, and hadn't given them what they thought we should be giving them.
Trevor and I had spoken at length about that: About doing an album that was more reminiscent of YES's 70's albums.
And some of TALK did attain that, the long concept piece...
And if we hadn't pandered to that sort-of 'radio play' element, and had made it into a 'Close To The Edge', or one of the finer of the 70's albums, I think it would have been a lot better for YES.
...I remember when Trevor played 'Walls' for me, I thought, 'Yeah, that would be great for Supertramp'.
You know, it was a collaboration with Roger, and they didn't know where to put it: Was it going to be on the Roger Hodgson-YES thing or something else?
EG: Was Hodgson really being scoped-out as a lead singer for YES at the time?
TK: I don't know about the time, maybe 'Walls' was from before, or maybe slated for something after TALK.
I don't really know, as I wasn't involved with the Roger Hodgson thing.
But I don't think it really fit the album as much as some of the other songs did.
'The Calling' was really cool.
But I don't think 'Walls' really belonged in there.
It kind-of fragmented the concept that Trevor really REALLY captured in most parts of the album, as to the essence of the band in the 70's.
EG: Trying to latch onto a possible hit, rather than being organic about it?
TK: Yeah, instead of doing music without thinking about it. A lot of TALK was very difficult to play.
EG: I've often wondered about this: When Chris and Alan scoped Rabin out for YES, were they thinking in terms of Trevor as a great guitarist, or more as a potential 'idea man'?
TK: I wasn't in London at the time, but obviously they saw the potential of Trevor as more than just a guitarist, but as a singer/songwriter.
And he was to become the singer of Cinema, which turned into a very successful album, just with a different vocalist.
You know, the album did have the essence of what it eventually became, without Jon.
So yeah, I think Chris recognized something there.
...Maybe he just wanted to snatch Trevor away from ASIA! (Laughter).
But I'm not sure that's what really went down.
I think Trevor was a free agent, after having auditioned for Steve [Howe].
EG: I used to know an A&R guy from the old Chrysalis label, and he gave me a copy of Rabin's first solo album, this was back in the late 70's.
He told me that they were planning on pushing Trevor Rabin as the 'Next Jimi Hendrix'.
I hadn't heard the stuff he'd recorded with 'Rabbit' yet...
TK: Rabbit was a pop band, then Trevor came to the states, and signed with Chrysalis, and he was very VERY impressive.
I remember meeting him at his house in LA, after Chris and I had spoken.
Chris said this guy, 'Rabin', was going to join the band, and he wanted to know if I'd like to be involved.
I remember being very impressed with that album. He's [Rabin] an incredible talent, of course.
EG: Yeah, Trevor sort-of does it all doesn't he?
I think of him in the same terms as Todd Rundgren, only a better guitarist.
They are both very 'hands-on' producers though...
TK: Yes. And that's what the band needed at the time, when there were just four of us, and Trevor Horn was going to be the lead singer.
EG: Horn was originally slated to be the singer on 90125?!
TK: Yes. I think that lasted for about two weeks.
EG: And this was after you guys had found Rabin?
TK: Yeah, yeah... I don't know who's bright idea that was!
EG: So, I wanted to ask you...
What was happening during that little period during 90125 where you were in the band, then suddenly Eddie Jobson was in the band, and then you were back in the band?
What was that all about?
There's a rumor out there that you and Horn had, well, 'locked horns'.
TK: Yes. Trevor Horn and I didn't see eye to eye on practically anything.
EG: Examples?
TK: (*sigh*) Well, you know, I think it was just one of those occasions where two people just don't get along.
It was a personality thing.
He just didn't want me to be in the band.
Who knows why.
Maybe he had a preference for someone else to be on the keyboards, Geoff Downes perhaps.
I just don't know.
But it went on and on and on throughout the whole album, and then, on to the next album.
EG: Big Generator?
TK: Yes. In Italy, in a big castle, where we first started recording Big Generator, and uh...
The 'facilities' in the castle were just not that great, in terms of living.
EG: Castles can be pretty drafty!
TK: Yes it was quite the experience.
Cold and damp, and they turned one big part of the castle into a recording studio, and for one reason or another, we ended-up in there.
The rest of the band, they weren't very impressed with the living facilities, so they went out into various country houses surrounding the castle: Except myself.
I was making a bit of a stand on the amount of money that was being spent on country houses, Mercedes Benzes...
I felt that I had to make this stand, because I knew that down the line, when the album eventually ended-up costing a million dollars, that it was going to be very expensive.
The only other person living there in the castle, other than myself, was Trevor Horn.
EG: Just the two of you then? Damn, that sounds a bit like Tolkein's The Two Towers!
TK: He still had this thing I was speaking of earlier, some strange animosity for me.
Trevor Rabin and I had conceptualized Big Generator, co-written a lot of it.
We had actually recorded a demo of the album, from beginning to end, on one of those old Akai multi-track video-cassette things that seemed so 'cutting edge' at the time.
I was actually quite involved in the writing, and I was working with Rabin on the album from the start.
So I think that I was a little less easily disposed of when we got to Italy, as a lot of it was mine.
EG: Did you come-up with much of the material before Rabin was involved?
TK: We rehearsed here, in The Hollywood Hills, it was fairly chaotic in a lot of ways, but Trevor [Rabin] and I were always there.
We were the catalyst, and we eventually wound-up writing most of the stuff that went on the album.
...So as I said before, I don't think Horn could dispose of me all that easily, once we got to Italy.
We were living in adjacent bedrooms in the same castle, which was quite strange!
EG: A little Kafkaesque.
TK: (Laughter) It was a strange relationship, to say the least. He had no respect for me, and I had little respect for him.
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EG: Now 'Holy Lamb': That really sounds like a Jon creation.
TK: Yes, that was all Jon's.
EG: A beautiful piece by the way.
What about The Rhythm Of Love?
TK: That started-off from me and my drum-machine.
The riff and the chorus.
A lot of the songs on Big Generator originated in that manner.
'Shoot High/Aim Low' is another one that started-off in the studio with a drum-machine.
I came-up with that one as well.
EG: That's my favorite song from the Yes-West period: I always presupposed it was Trevor's, it's so 'guitar-oriented'.
TK: Well, it all becomes Trevor's generally, once you put guitars and the song on it.
But it was my idea, as all ideas have to start somewhere.
And Trevor was great, in that he took the ideas and would write great songs around them. He would write a great chorus, and take it somewhere else.
So, you have to start somewhere, but then you have to take it further.
I have great respect for Trevor as an engineer and a producer.
Perhaps some day in the future, we'll work together again.
With Trevor Horn, well, he had had great success and credits, and he owned two beautiful studios in London.
But it was just, well, a very very strange relationship between the two of us.
Now you can't deny Horn's success in recording all of those bands in the eighties.
I, along with Rabin, originally wanted Mutt Lange to produce 90125, but Mutt was too busy working on something else at the time...
The Def Leppard album, 'Pyromania': Which I played on, by the way.
I actually did the keyboards on the album.
As a producer, Lange was such a sweetheart of a guy, and such a pleasure to work with.
And there was none of the tension that was happening in the 90125 studio.
EG: So, if Lange had been at the controls of 90125, it might have been a better experience for you?
TK: Who knows how it would have turned-out with Mutt.
But, working with [him] was such a positive experience.
Particularly what he had me doing.
There were actually no 'keyboards' per se on 'Pyromania': What he had me doing was playing the guitar parts on the synthesizer.
I was doubling the guitar parts, we were multi-tracking everything with the guitars on top.
The synths were playing what the guitars were playing, in exactitude, ...so you ended-up with this great wall of sound.
But then, there were no actual keyboard parts in-between.
It took hours and hours, finding the guitar parts I could play with one hand, and then, multi-tracking them.
And that's how we got that BIG sound on 'Pyromania'.
EG: T.K. and Def Leppard. Who knew? Certainly not I!
TK: I don't think anyone knows about that. There aren't any keyboard credits on the album.
...So, going back to what we were talking about originally, with YES there are always ups and downs.
And eventually we ended-up at Trevor Horn's studio, after taking about as much of the Italian castle as we could.
We went to London, where it all fell apart, and came back to LA, where it all seemed to eventually come together.
EG: That's where we get the expression, 'YES-West', at least for that particular time-period of the band anyway...
TK: Chris lived here, Alan lived here, well, in Seattle, but close enough.
I lived here.
Jon was here much of the time, in between Barbados and Europe, but we all generally gravitated back to LA.
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EG: Well Tony, I'd like to hear a bit more about your favorite tracks.
TK: 'Shoot High': I really liked that one. And the song, 'Big Generator'.
EG: Going back to 90125, I was wondering about the song, 'Hearts'.
TK: Yes, we went into the pub one day, and I'd written that main theme you hear at the beginning of the song [Hums the main theme], and Trevor said, 'I've got a great chorus for that!'
EG: Did Jon have anything to do with the song?
TK: I think Jon thought he wrote the entire thing! (laughter).
...Judging from the lawsuit I spent 2 or 3 years on over that song.
But I don't think we should go into lawsuits here.
EG: Do you mind talking just a little bit about the lawsuits? Sorry, I don't mean to push you on that issue.
TK: Well, it became a big part of my life for about 3 years...
EG: There have been a few situations n YES where lawyers were involved.
TK: Were there other lawsuits?
EG: I'm not sure if it ever went to court, but there was some acrimony surrounding ABWH, where they wanted to call it 'YES'.
TK: I think we owned the name at the time, but then Jon left the band. But I think everyone still owned the name at the time.
EG: Obviously it was all patched-up during the UNION phase, but it was quite the rift during the interim.
TK: Well, I think in the main contract, the majority held the name.
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To Be Continued!
Earl Grey/2009.:rightG:
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