What Really Happened to Billy Sherwood? [Archive]

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01-17-2003, 10:02 PM

Neither Billy nor the band says much about why he is no longer in Yes. It was said to be 'mutual.'

Does anybody know the story?

The ever-curious Q

yes_angel

01-17-2003, 11:13 PM

Very good question.I always liked Billy.He did a excellent job with the band.Maybe we will find out what happened.There are so many stories that went around at the time.

brismike

01-18-2003, 10:40 AM

01-18-2003, 10:43 AM

I have a private opinion that the departure was probably motivated largely by Steve, who has never been comfortable sharing the guitar role (as he has stated repeatedly, most recently in the making-of featurette on YesSymphonic)

RobAdams

01-18-2003, 10:49 AM

We might have to move this to the POLITICS thread! ;)

soleil7

01-18-2003, 11:19 AM

I must agree with Quantum....Billy's demise was largely due to Mr Howe and his ego, methinks !!! ;)

01-18-2003, 11:27 AM

ycantibu

01-18-2003, 12:58 PM

Maybe Billy, like Trevor, is too diplomatic to get into all the sordid details.

illusion

01-23-2003, 12:32 PM

I think that having a supporting guitarist (and vocalist) is a good idea (as long as it isn't Rabin - sorry for that comment folks). It's a shame that Steve didn't like it - it seems almost certain to me at least that Steve was behind the departure.

Question is:

Did he jump or was he pushed?

01-23-2003, 12:36 PM

That final question is a good way of putting it.

bondegezou

01-28-2003, 08:29 AM

Yes, Sherwood was pushed and, yes, Howe never really wanted him there (or, at least, not as a second guitarist). However, Howe was complaining about Sherwood's presence in interviews for ages: Howe's objections do not explain why Sherwood went when he went. What seems likely is that some *other* band member changed sides on the issue -- I'd speculate Anderson.

brismike wrote: "I hope he writes a book one day .. Something that tells all about how he started off .. formed the band called "Lodgic", then "World Trade" [...] I'm sure he would have many interesting things to tell. But maybe he is sworn to silence at the moment."

Sherwood's final interview before his departure is archived at my site, <http://www.bondegezou.demon.co.uk/iv/bsinterview.htm>, and there's also an interview at <http://www.bondegezou.demon.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm> with Jimmy Haun which covers the history of Lodgic.

Henry

Sonoacustico

03-11-2003, 08:13 PM

that's a very interesting thread, I loved the studio contributions of Sherwood to the band (except some things in OYE) and I think his best contributing to the band in concert was his work as sideman in the TALk tour. The ladder tour demonstrated that he can't handle some Trevor Rabin's guitar parts (Cinema and OOALH), but at the other hand, he was the only possibility that fans might have to hear some Rabin-era stuff. I think HEARTS wouldn't have been played in THE LADDER tour with no Billy Sherwood. I see Billy more than a very good sidemen, more than a "real" member of the band.
And i agree with the issue of Billy leaving the band because of Steve's wishes. In fact I think readed that Khoroshev left the band (among other reasons) for an issue with Steve Howe....

Jackaranda

03-11-2003, 08:52 PM

If, and let me emphasize if, it's true that Steve shoved him out in some way, to me that's just really sad. His jealousy of Rabin over all these years seems to be the behavior of a very insecure and controlling person. I hope that's not the case. Steve is such a great guitarist, but maybe pushing 60, you'd think he could mellow and admit he could use some help in the guitar role, and to give up his "total control of the guitar picture". Steve has seemed to me, for a long time now, to be more concerned with his ego than the success of the band. Again, you'd think at their age this would have been a problem put to rest many years ago.

03-11-2003, 09:19 PM

Steve has been very blatant about his dislike of sharing the guitar duties with Billy.

Steve is the most territorial of Yesmen, with the possible exception of Jon himself. For better or worse, it's just who they are.

In Steve's defense, we might assume that some of this emotion derives from the unpleasant surprises of Union, when he found that Jimmy Hahn had been brought in to re-record his parts ...

bondegezou

03-12-2003, 06:02 AM

Quantum:
>In Steve's defense, we might assume that some of this
>emotion derives from the unpleasant surprises of Union,
>when he found that Jimmy Ha[u]n had been brought in to
>re-record his parts ...

Or, indeed, when Milton McDonald was brought in likewise on _ABWH_.

Henry

stevepenn

03-12-2003, 02:30 PM

There's no real mystery here from all I've read and heard. Steve shares the guitar space with nobody. Period. It's pretty cut and dried that Billy was no longer a welcome musical presence in the band.

Say what you want about Howe being a control freak, but that's his deal and always has been. I understand that. Let's also be honest here: Billy was shoe-horned into the band by Chris. I do think his studio contributions were great, he's done some nice work on the production end of the band and I am one of the few people who really likes The Ladder a lot. A lot of Billy is quite evident in there which is great. I met Billy a couple of times and I thought he was one very cool guy, a real sweetheart of a human being.

Having said all that, I can't deny my eyes and ears and I submit that Billy just simply cannot hold a candle to any of the other five musicians when he is on stage. It's gotta be tough. I've seen him 8 or 9 nine times during the years he toured with Yes and there were times when it was quite painfully clear that he was lost musically and struggling to keep up ... never mind blend in. I say this as a guitarist of 25 years who knows fear in the fingers and eyes of somebody outmatched!

There are precious few musicians who can keep up with Yes. That's one of the reasons we all love them. Billy blows away 95% of the musicians you can compare him with.

Unfortunately for him, the other 5% is Yes. That's pretty much the story.

Byroan

03-12-2003, 05:31 PM

I've been listening to Open your Eyes, and realised how much I like what Billy did for the band- some of those tracks are my favorite tracks (at the momment)

As a side bar, I've been listening to Magnification a bit closer, and find I'm not as please with the orchestration, I think Rick would have done much better job, which is something I believe he indicated in a recent Yesworld interview. I think some of those songs should be re-interpreted by Rick with a full orchestra.

While their at it, I hope they will consider some live performances of Key to Ascension tracks...I'm not asking for too much am I ?

pianozach

12-01-2004, 04:22 PM

Steve has been very blatant about his dislike of sharing the guitar duties with Billy.

Steve is the most territorial of Yesmen, with the possible exception of Jon himself . . . .

In Steve's defense, we might assume that some of this emotion derives from the unpleasant surprises of Union, when he found that Jimmy Hahn had been brought in to re-record his parts ...

Or, indeed, when Milton McDonald was brought in likewise on _ABWH_.

Henry

Or, indeed when he had to share the stage with Trevor Rabin . . .

. . . Steve shares the guitar space with nobody. Period. It's pretty cut and dried that Billy was no longer a welcome musical presence in the band.

Say what you want about Howe being a control freak, but that's his deal and always has been. I understand that. Let's also be honest here: Billy was shoe-horned into the band by Chris. I do think his studio contributions were great, he's done some nice work on the production end of the band and I am one of the few people who really likes The Ladder a lot. A lot of Billy is quite evident in there which is great. I met Billy a couple of times and I thought he was one very cool guy, a real sweetheart of a human being.

.

Like many of the bands other recent works, a lot of their "new" band material was stuff that had been pirated off of various solo projects.

90125 was a TR solo project that was altered to become "Cinema" and then "Yes."

OYE was, likewise, largely (it seems to me) a Sherwood/Squire solo endeavor. "Somehow Someday" from OYE was a new arrangement of a JA song from one of his early solo albums.

Parts of Union and ABWH were Howe solo projects adapted to work as "Yes"-songs.

Many, many, many Yes songs thru the years were thinly disguised "Andersongs". Even "Clap" and "Mood for a Day" were solos.

So Steve doesn't like to share the glory with others. Not any other guitarist, evidently. Not with certain other keyboardists, evidently. Not even with Chris Squire it seems sometimes.

What to do?

bondegezou

12-08-2004, 04:31 PM

As a side bar, I've been listening to Magnification a bit closer, and find I'm not as please with the orchestration, I think Rick would have done much better job, which is something I believe he indicated in a recent Yesworld interview. I think some of those songs should be re-interpreted by Rick with a full orchestra.

When I listen to Wakeman's orchestral arrangements on Return to the Centre of the Earth, I am very grateful that Yes went with Groupe for Magnification.

Henry

smatt

12-08-2004, 05:28 PM

I think again, people are putting togther these vast "Conspiracy"
theories :lmao: It was more just a mutual agreement that Billy at that point, had little to offer the band and vice-versa. But I guess it's more fun to say that Steve got him booted......

smatt

12-08-2004, 05:59 PM

When I listen to Wakeman's orchestral arrangements on Return to the Centre of the Earth, I am very grateful that Yes went with Groupe for Magnification.

Henry

Henry, I couldn't agree with you more! I really like Larry's orchestrations on Mag. Although, I think what he did with the classic songs was a bit on the safe side.

kmcpro615

12-10-2004, 10:33 AM

Henry, I couldn't agree with you more! I really like Larry's orchestrations on Mag. Although, I think what he did with the classic songs was a bit on the safe side.

Ah...so we have TWO Groupe' groupies. That would be Groupe' squared, wood it knot?

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

smatt

12-10-2004, 11:48 AM

:lmao: good one Kurt

kmcpro615

12-10-2004, 12:12 PM

Don't forget to tip your bartenders & waitresses.....

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

Buglunch

12-24-2004, 11:16 PM

If so, it's a detail. The decision seems to have worked from an artistic standpoint --- OYE and The Ladder were what they were, and Masterworks and YesSymphonic seemed to be the right place for the band afterwards ... there's no faulting the current line-up ... but it is a concern that fresh blood does not seem welcome in Yes, even if it is of Rabin quality ...

Q
Every member is a symphony director of his own; Rabin got Yes into the charts in the 80s after Trevor H. and Geoff D. gave the nudge and moved on with his own plans. I'm curious about Tony Kaye (saw him '84 in Vancouver with Rabin and the boys for 90125, yay! ) From Chris' and Jon's comments and especially the Acoustic Live the foursome likes to hire keys/orchestra/extra people as needed for studio projects and tours.

Tom Brislin is utterly amazing and very North American/Jerseyite but nothing like Kaye/Wakeman and the rest.

And then there's Patrick Moraz....1975 was truly a milestone and that's when Alan White and Chris and Patrick really caught my full attention live; I find the bassists and key players the most fascinating but Billy added a great feel, and Igor Xh. I identify greatly with because of my Russian language studies and my love of playing keyboards (and Mussorgskiy, yum).

Steve's the best for Yes' gentler space cowboy jazz and Trevor metallized them too much, pulled them sideways ten true summers long, getting them great exposure and for his material in the meantime.

The solo albums shine on.
Union tour rockified largetime. :D
Lots of different combinations, Chris bassing each one to Heaven and beyond.

ELLIS

12-29-2004, 04:16 AM

Anyone hear Billy's interview on Delicious Agony yesterday? He said Steve was "territorial" with guitar duties, but went no further. Obviously that must have had some effect.

Did anyone hear his "No Comment" album played in it's entirety? Much better than his first one. My fave tracks were Metaphors, Dying Breed, (about dinosaurs), and the epic Empty Castle. Very Yes-style, with some interesting banjo work at the start. I'd buy the album just for that 1 track!

Yescelt

01-26-2005, 11:37 AM

Regarding "when he went" - I spoke to Billy several times during The Ladder tour, and it was clear to me DURING the tour, that Billy already knew he was leaving the Band after the Tour.

Regards, Brian

Yes, Sherwood was pushed and, yes, Howe never really wanted him there (or, at least, not as a second guitarist). However, Howe was complaining about Sherwood's presence in interviews for ages: Howe's objections do not explain why Sherwood went when he went. What seems likely is that some *other* band member changed sides on the issue -- I'd speculate Anderson.

Henry

inside_out

01-26-2005, 07:25 PM

"Anyone hear Billy's interview on Delicious Agony yesterday? He said Steve was "territorial" with guitar duties, but went no further. Obviously that must have had some effect."

Billy Sherwood was lucky to be on the same stage playing with a musician such as Steve Howe. Of course Steve's territorial about it. I'm happy he is.

kevycanavan

02-13-2005, 01:45 PM

i'd be a bit peeved if my band decided to get in a third guitar player to play solos as well as me. I wouldn't mind the other guitarist taking solos if he wanted because he has been in the band for years but if our bass player befriended some guy who played guitar and asked him to join the band, i'd probably leave.

Buglunch

07-11-2005, 08:01 AM

When I listen to Wakeman's orchestral arrangements on Return to the Centre of the Earth, I am very grateful that Yes went with Groupe for Magnification.

Henry
Yes, but I find some of the doubling and omission of themes, ostinati and backing segments to be harmful to the works, overall a great job.
I bet Tom Brislin had great ideas that differed- that guy is a supergenius but the drivers of the Yescar decide.

Rabin105

09-01-2005, 08:38 AM

I hope he writes a book one day .. Something that tells all about how he started off .. formed the band called "Lodgic", then "World Trade" .. how he met Chris and got involved with Yes while Jon was doing the ABWH thing.

Then his involvement with Yes right up to when he left inbetween the Ladder & Masterworks tours.

I'm sure he would have many interesting things to tell. But maybe he is sworn to silence at the moment.

I hope his new solo CD comes out soon. The one called "No Comment". That might shed some light on what happened in the lyrics of the songs maybe?

Mike

ps - I really liked Billy too, I met him on the Ladder Tour and he is a wonderful person, very friendly and easy to talk to.

Billy is a great guy another of my funny yes moments happened during the ladder tour we were sitting after trying to meet yesfans (hey i was 13 and wanted to meet my idols) anyhoo as we were sitting there billy sherwood walked by smiled waved and walked away i was in shock (yeah you know you prepare your whole life for these things then when it happens all your left with is "Uh uhm uh" this happend again when i met chris and alan but i have a picture to prove that)

anyhoo now I am not a member of the band i am in no way even close but based on wat i have gathered through various sources i think i have been able to come up with yes in the late 90's from basically rick leaving the 3rd time was it (man they change keyboardest more times than any other instrument it would be nice if keyboardest would stick around a bit longer thn 1 or 2 ablums) up until igor depatrue from the band now is this all 100% fact well no some of it is guesses and some of it is based on interviews (i'm taking basic news writing this semester so i'm going to try and show both sides of the story)

In 1997 yes basically wanted to tour to show off the classic lineup Rick claims Managment never told him that the tour was going to happen I belive him anyways rick was way to busy to tour and the tour was canceled (the infamous Know tour) well both Chris and Jon had basically found someone to replace rickbut (now this is a guess) never told each other Jon found Igor Khorochev a russian musican who was a huge fan of both yes and Deep Purple and chris found (you guessed it) Billy Sherwood well i always assumed Jon was going to use igor for a solo thing but i have found (it might of been on forgotten yesterdays) fans claiming that Igor was going to temporarly replace rick for a few show of the know tour I'm not sure but what i do know is the Billy became a card carrying member of yes igor did not (and never did). anyhoo during this time the Know tour became basically the no tour as rick left and everyone else was busy Billy said in an interview steve was on a solo tour in hawaii jon was in europe (possibly with igor or meeting igor) Chris was with billy and alan was in seatlle anyways when Billy joined thererecord company wanted yes to waste no time in showcaseing the new yes line up of Chris Steve Alan Jon and Billy. I always assumed Billy was brought in as keybaordest i have heard that while billy can play keys in the studio live forget it (Im not sure if this is true or not I like to belive anyone who can play Siberean katrue on keys studio or not is a great keys player but wehat do i know i only know 3 scales on the keys G C and F) Anyways this where stories differ Steve (when asked if yes will ever revistit openyour eyes live again) said "No not really in fact if we ever did anything it would be the title track as that is the only song we all worked on" Billy on the other hand said "I don't know why Steve thought it was a conspiracy album we all worked on the tracks together the only conspiracy tracks are OYE and Man on the moon the rest were band tracks" youcan belive steve or billy i personaly beilive a combiation i feel steve probably never listened to the whole album and doesn't know how much of him is on the album but i might be wrong. ok so as we all know Stev poraco added key to oye and Igor added keys to 2 songs so how did he qind up playing live as keyboardist my money is steve relunctance to play wner Billy could play the solo so why not just have 2 guitarists and through Igor on keys it allows rabin material to be played even though steve doesn't want to UIgor's happy cause e get to play in yes and Jon's happy cause he's well jon and he wanted igor and that was it (wonder if he would of wanted igor if he knew how much trouble he would of gotten both himself and the band into) so the band went on tour to support oye (which was a very very rushed yes ablum but it built the foundation for the ladder so it was important like it but that is just me) after the tour the band this time again decided to show off there new lineup (with Igor and billy) and did a great job at it the ladder was a great album the tour also was well and everyone was happy well not everyone Steve had it in his head to do epics again like they did in the 70's (my money is he figured the band was winding down and this would be the last hoorah again just a theory) well that's great Billy loved the epics too except one problem the epics only had 1 guitarist what was billy going to do for most of gates sure he could play acoustic gutar during soon but that was at the end jon and steve wanted to do this igor was happy to i think Chris and alan weren't thrilled they wanted to move foward so billy sensing a problem left was his dicesion mutual well if you look at it from one perspective yeah Billy didn't see any point in doing just the epics and steve didn't want a secod guitarist. but the ironic thing is I don't think it was chris's intetion to have him as a guitarist but as a kayboardist eh i guess life is funny that way. so take it what for what you will but this is as much as i know. oh and about igor well he isn't the first yesman to do something illegal but he was the first one to cause a scandel a huge one so the moral of the story if youjoin yes make sure it's for the right instrument and that you don't bite the leegs of female security girls by the way igor after it all happened was quoted as saying "tastes like chicken"

I hope this clears yup something other wise i wasted an hour and i rambled :)

SuperTrooper

10-25-2005, 01:34 PM

My theory is that Howe didn't want another guitar player in the band after playing solo for on and off in the band for 30 years.

Rabin105

10-25-2005, 01:43 PM

My theory is that Howe didn't want another guitar player in the band after playing solo for on and off in the band for 30 years.
while plausible then why did Steve Howe actually want to work with Steve Hackett in the 80's i mean there is another peice to the puzzle asnd wouldn't of he madfe some sort of ultimatium during OYE kind of either me or billy you pick

smatt

10-26-2005, 02:51 PM

The basic story I got form a principle here was that Billy just wanted to do other things. Tehre was little if any tension between Billy and Steve, despite the constant BS you here out there. Yes wanted to do the Masterworks tour, there was really nothing Billy had to add there. Billy has tons of other projects to do, and basically had his fill of the Yes thing... It's nothing more, nothing less than that. Billy and Chris remain very good friends, Billy works with many repected musicians through-out the industry.

It's nothing more than that.... no brawls no fights, no hatred, they all just wanted to different things.... But I know it's far more interesting to believe the made-up tabloid crap you here on the vine......

pedro skychaser

10-26-2005, 04:36 PM

he needed both hands free to build a bloody,great wall!!

"crossing the red desert, loki felt a big peace,but made no comment"

Hugh Shiebler

10-26-2005, 06:45 PM

Question:

On "The Ladder" - - toward the end of "New Languages" (7:20ish) - - is that acoustic guitar solo Sherwood? I am surprised that I can't tell for sure, but my guess is that it is.....

The Whale

11-14-2005, 11:08 AM

while plausible then why did Steve Howe actually want to work with Steve Hackett in the 80's i mean there is another peice to the puzzle asnd wouldn't of he madfe some sort of ultimatium during OYE kind of either me or billy you pick

And even then Trevor Rabin was almost the 5th member of Asia! Seems like Steve is willing to work with other giutar players I just wonder how much other guitar players want to put up with steve.

No Steve pluse any other guitar player has ever lasted.

relayeire

11-14-2005, 02:03 PM

I had heard Howe's comments about the Masterworks Tour, and Billy's services not really being needed... up to point it made sense to have Billy in the band... for me, though this was only to play the Rabin role in concert and to add some strength to the vocal sound both live and in the studio... The Ladder is certainly terrific, but I think it would have been regardless...

Hugh, I believe Steve plays the acoustic solo on New Language... he certainly did so on the tour...

relayeire

11-15-2005, 10:46 AM

My Pythonesque answer to this is, "He met wiff, like, an 'accident.'"

Buglunch

11-18-2005, 03:34 AM

Is that a Guinness??
I'll have one.........loik.

relayeire

11-18-2005, 02:14 PM

Bug... that is quite likely a Guinness, though possibly a Beamish, as I was in West Ireland at the time... it's one of the two for certain...

eyesoflove1

01-19-2006, 09:47 PM

Maybe Billy, like Trevor, is too diplomatic to get into all the sordid details.

I rather agree with Y, anything else is just speculation.
However I also think that Mr. Howe is exceptionally territorial and his unwillingness to bend on such matters is obvious. :theband: