Rethinking The Ladder

[Jackaranda]

It only took about 3 1/2 years, but I'm finally liking some of this album. I've railed on this piece of work many times as being such a disappointment, especially considering the pre-release publicity. It really disappointed me.

Sometimes I think situations can cloud judgement. We were going through a rough period when The Ladder was released, and I think that, combined with the fact that I thought it was really weak anyway, just turned me off big time.

Recently, we've been watching HOB Live (a lot), and I'm really liking the Ladder tracks, especially Homeworld, The Messenger, and It Will Be A Good Day. These really are good songs, so some re-asessing is in order.

However, I still think Lightning Strikes and the Peter Cetera sound alike song (If Only You Knew) are still awfully weak for Yes. But it's been nice watching my opinion change about much of this album.

Any other thoughts about The Ladder or that particular line-up?

[Q]

"If Only You Knew" steals a riff from Bread's "Make It With You," Jack ... to me, that represents an all-time low ...

[Jackaranda]

Originally posted by Quantum
"If Only You Knew" steals a riff from Bread's "Make It With You," Jack ... to me, that represents an all-time low ...

Certainly does. However, coming back to that album after a pretty long period of not listening to it, overall it's just not that bad this time around, and that's nice....

[Q]

Tracks from "The Ladder" started to work for me, jack, when I saw House of Yes ... similarly, the lame "Tormato" tracks were suddenly transformed into something great when I heard "In the Round," and tunes from "Mag" - which I don't dig much - were marvelous when Rick tackled them with the band this summer ...

Q

[yes_angel]

The Ladder won my heart real fast at the first 3 listens.New Language was always a real cool sound blasting tune in my car on the way and from work

[arrel]

I don't know. The "unoriginal" songs on The Ladder (according to the above posters - "Lightning Strikes" and "If Only You Knew") don't bother me at all for two reasons:

1. I think they show the amazing versatility of Yes
2. I personally find them very fun to listen to

Not a really powerful argument, I realize, but heh...;)

I like The Ladder.

I've been listening through my whole collection this week, and so far I find that there is something beautiful and something transcendant in every Yes album - even Big Generator - though, I admit, that one's a bit of a stretch.

The album that's really gone up in my estimation this week is Keys to Ascension Vol 1 (at least the first disc). Everyone of those live performances is incredible.

[Q]

I think The Ladder would have gotten better response, especially on the "variety" tunes, if the centerpiece has clicked. "Homeworld" was touted as a new epic, and what we wanted was something in the mold of "Awaken." It ain't even close; if it had been, then The Ladder would have done much better ...

Q

[arrel]

Originally posted by jack gowen
Sometimes I think situations can cloud judgment.

I think that's very true. Even my 5-listen-rule isn't always enough to overcome a really down period in life and come up with a clear evaluation. But, it helps.:D

[arrel]

Originally posted by Quantum
"Homeworld" was touted as a new epic

I didn't realize that. (I've only been listening to Yes for about a year now.) I wasn't looking for anything epic at all on this disc. If asked, I probably would have said "New Language"
was meant to be the heavy number on this one.

I guess expectations do have a lot to do with reactions.

[RobAdams]

THE LADDER is the step in the right direction album for that period in the history of Yes. The previous album OPEN YOUR EYES took a lot for me to warm up to. I dismissed it as boring tedious trash from the time I bought it on cassette when it was new, until just recently (2002) when I finally bought it on CD.

When THE LADDER came out I was a bit leery...OYE let me down, and I was wondering if I should give them one more chance. Apprehensive as I was I figured they deserved another chance.

I expected OYE part two. Instead I got an album that I like almost as much as the ABWH studio album. In a way, like ABWH, this album shows a return to form - sort of. For some reason this album is like the TORMATO of 1999...I don't know why I feel this way, but I do.

And OPEN YOUR EYES, with a lot of hindsight, has revealed itself to be not as bad as I thought it was. It'll never be a favorite, but it's a unique effort from them.

THE LADDER has a number of songs I've grown to love. HOMEWORLD, IT WILL BE A GOOD DAY, FINALLY, THE MESSENGER and NEW LANGUAGE are great tracks.

I'm glad I bought THE LADDER when I did. Now the only copies I see are cut outs with damaged (by the cut out) jewel cases. THE LADDER was quite good I think.

I also noticed something...While listening to a CDR of the 1991 Shoreline show it suddenly dawned on me. If you have it, listen to the beginning of SAVING MY HEART...do you hear hints of THE MESSENGER ????

[Martin Riley]

I too was immediately disappointed with THE LADDER. It had been talked up quite a lot ( by YES standards of media coverage) before release and I was expecting something great. On first listen I thought it was too long with too many weak tracks cluttering up what could have been a decent 40 minute album in the old vinyl days. It was only after hearing the live versions on HOB that I began to warm to it, although it's still an album I listen to more in the car than at home, where I would listen more intently.

[scooter13]

My feeling mirror most of Martin's on The Ladder. But the one thing I do take solace in is that they are still good songwriters in general. "Lightning Strikes" is really a cool pop tune. Not what I would prefer to hear from Yes, but it is still much better than most anything played on Top 40 radio.

"Homeworld" to me is the best track on the album.

[Jackaranda]

Rob---you hit it. I have thought exactly the same thing about the Saving My Heart-Messenger connection.

Steve talks in YesYears about how in the early days they'd take something they made earlier, change a few bits, and you have a whole new song. Bill Bruford also said much the same. So I think The Messenger, even though it's a good track, may have it's roots elsewhere.....

[Kevin Still]

"I've got to admit, it's getting better".

Took me a few days to warm up to it but I'm warm now.

Still not crazy for the "only you knew" thing.

Jon, love comes out of your lyrics like a stream brings water from the mountians. You don't have to force yourself to carry a bucket.

[yessongs72]

I first heard some tracks from HOB,back in 1999 when it played on Direct TV for a month. I went out and bought the ladder, the first live studio that I had ought since 90125. I determined after a few listening's that it was the best album since Tormato and then when Magnification was released, well it's IMHO the best since Tales. Now that's my two cents worth and I'm glad hearing others are now enjoying this fine piece of Yes music.

[PO]

I am giving Ladder (and OYE) a new listen.

One thing I try to do is NOT get any notion of what to expect, including the cover art of the release. If I don't (or do) like the cover, it affects my response. I also never read early reviews.

So, to listen to new music, I am not even going to know the name of the tracks nor will I look at the cover art. I will just turn down the lights and let the music only speak for itself.

I didn't like Relayer when it came out. Fragile, CTTE, and TFTO all had colorful visuals, but Relayer was black and white. I ignored all that and had the music stand by itslef and found out what was really going on. Try it.

[1yesfan]

test

[OZOK]

I started with the HOB live cd, and really enjoyed the Ladder songs.
Then I bought the Album (this was all in 2001) and I thought it was great. I still do. Only thing i didn't like was the arrangement for Lightning Strikes, which comes out miles and miles better on the live version of HOB.
Homeworld and Messenger are true Yes classics.

[Thoughtbecontact]

The Ladder is new for me. I'm on my second listen through right now, but I do agree with one thing, "If Only You Knew" is a weak song. It's kind of odd, given the depth of Jon's feelings for Jane, but, IMHO, Jon has to tie up a love song in cosmic significance, which is what he does on MAG with ITPO. Toward the end of the first sequence of ITPO where he's obviously signing to Jane, I almost feel like I'm intruding on something, given the timbre of his voice, the arrangement of the strings and the sensuousness of Steve's guitar

[gt76yesman]

After some disappointing albums I did not buy The Ladder, it was not until someone gave me the Homeworld computer game that I listened to Homeworld. After a couple of listenings I had to go get The Ladder. Homeworld is a great song, not really a classic but still great. Most of the rest of the album has grown on me.

Glendo

[Joedude]

I've rather enjoyed the album since I first got it. There are some weaker moments (I find Can I? to be a bore) but overall a good effort. I especially liked having the two guitars - this also seemed to work well live, at least from what I see and hear from the HOB tape.

I would have liked to see another effort by these 6 gentlemen, but then we wouldn't have Magnification now, would we?

[Ron Drummond]

I've fallen in love with The Ladder since last Summer. Yes albums are always tough to hear at first. There's so much going on, and none of their albums really sound like any of the others, so at first I hear all the ways a new album is NOT an old beloved album. It takes time for me to hear what's unique to the new album, to grok its sound, to understand its sound as its own thing.

I too didn't care too much for The Ladder at first, and didn't listen to it much. But after Magnification came out, and I fell in love with it, I went back to The Ladder, and discovered Keystudio, and then with trepidation I tracked down a copy of Open Your Eyes. Four studio albums since Howe rejoined the band, and you could not ask for four albums that are more completely different from one another. It's no wonder if some people prefer one sound over another, but I'm just amazed at the sheer variety of those four albums, and love them all and am incredibly grateful for them all. And three of them are three of the best albums Yes has ever made, IMHO -- I'll let you guess which three, though the one I left off that list is still wonderful, if you let it be what it is instead of what you originally wished it was.

But these days The Ladder is my favorite -- Jon's singing is incomparably sweet, I love having two guitars (Steve and Billy were getting very good at meshing their disparate styles), if Igor is not Rick's equal it's only because he's younger and less experienced, and I love Billy's back-up singing. The whole vibe is very Beatlesque to my ears. Hep Yadda is one of the most joyous affirmations of life I've ever heard from this most joyful of bands.

I also like that the producer encouraged Jon to pay tibute to one of his heros -- so we have an homage to Bob Marley in "The Messenger", and Jon liked doing it enough that he went on, so we have that incredible George Harrison tribute on Magnification, "Time is Time" -- I hope they continue to honor the musicians they love.

And listening to The Ladder late last summer prepped my subconscious, and was one important source of inspiration (along with Yoko Ono's Ladder installation) for my design for the World Trade Center Memorial, which I've spent over 500 hours working on since last September. You can read about it here:

http://www.oz.net/~jhawk/wtc/gardensteps/

Bless Yes for their on-going message of peace and for encouraging people to celebrate their lives.

Ron

[tardistraveler]

The Ladder is still growing on me. For reasons which I'm still not sure, I didn't listen to it much after receiving it as a Christmas gift the year it came out. So, it's just been this past year that I've been listening to it.

And, I do like it. Homeworld I find running through my mind, as well as New Language. It may not wind up being one of my absolute favorites, but may be close.

Wish I had seen the tour - they didn't play Nashville with that one. Their songs are always so much better live.

[BrianD]

I liked this album from the start, particularly Homeworld, The Messenger & Face to Face. A definite progression from OYE. Some weak tracks - Finally annoys me in particular - but not many.

I think Homeworld is very good - a classic? - well ask in 10 years time.

[upbgirl]

just got the back issues of progression mag where they mentioned how 'the ladder' got named that..
anyone here know why??
[no, there is no prize.. just the satisfaction of having some knowledge about our band]

[Q]

The Ladder has some really interesting moments ... but since it was touted as the band's attempt at return-to-form, I regard it ultimately as evidence that they no longer can reach the place they once could reach ... and this supports Bill Bruford's contention that the "classic" phase of Yes's musical development was largely circumstantial ... that is deeply unfortunate, because it leaves to chance the prospect that we will ever have another classic Yes album ...

[tardistraveler]

Well, if by "Classic Yes" album you mean another CTTE, then you're probably right - there won't be another one.

Hoever, I'm not looking for another CTTE - I just want to see Yes express their creatvitiy in whatever way the mood strikes. The Ladder is a creative effort, and although it retains a Yes-ness about it, it doesn't sound quite like any other album. And to me, that's good, as it allows me yet another form in which to experience this marvelous band.

I feel that this album is a beginning of a creative insurgence for the band, followed by Magnification, which, in my opinion, is their best effort since the 70's. Can't wait to see what is next!

[Q]

With Rick aboard, you can bet that whatever is next will be something new and different!

[tardistraveler]

My thoughts exactly! Can't wait to hear what this lineup will produce!

[PastPresentMover]

I've always liked The Ladder. Not crazy about all the songs but overall I thinks it's good. New Languages, Homeworld, It'll be a Good Day and The Messenger are my favorites. I also think Nine Voices would be a wonderful track to perform live.

[Q]

The surprise performance of Nine Voices at the November Chicago show was marvelous ...

[Ron Drummond]

Originally posted by Quantum
The Ladder has some really interesting moments ... but since it was touted as the band's attempt at return-to-form, I regard it ultimately as evidence that they no longer can reach the place they once could reach ...
I think the marketing materials surrounding an album should be ignored. It's almost always complete nonsense that has little bearing on the record to hand. Why should you care how the album was "touted"? It just sets up useless expectations that by definition cannot be fulfilled. Evidence that they no longer can reach the place they once reached? Why would they WANT to reach the place they once reached? They've already been there! Why go back when you can go forward?

Yes is manifestly a band that is not satisfied with treading water or with merely revisiting old ground -- their essence is about exploring new ground, about doing things they have not done before. Keystudio, The Ladder, and Magnification are all completely different from one another and all stake out incredibly exciting new territory for the band, so yes in that sense it IS a return to form which means moving forward. And with Rick back they will continue to move forward.

Remember, these guys are adults, they're at the peak of their abilities. Why would they want to try to duplicate what they did when they were kids? They get to do that in concert, but when it comes to NEW music, they want to write NEW music, music that reflects where they are now in their lives. And that's what they do, it's what they've always done, no two studio albums by Yes are alike, and I for one hope they never break that particular winning streak, because it's what keeps them fresh and alive!

[upbgirl]

"Yes is manifestly a band that is not satisfied with treading water or with merely revisiting old ground -- their essence is about exploring new ground, about doing things they have not done before."

i think that is the best definition of 'progressive' i have heard in a long time!! thanx for that wonderfully eloquent dissertation, mr drummond!
and welcome to the site..i cant wait to read more posts from you!

[PastPresentMover]

Well said, Mr. Drummond. Nice to meet you.

Slam

[tardistraveler]

Welcome to the site, Ron! And I agree with you. I don't want Yes to duplicate earlier efforts, but to forge new ground!

Can't wait for the next album!

[Q]

I grant the arguments above with respect to the idea that Yes need not be the band they were in the 70s ... however, it is acknowledged by all band members that they really do not operate as a band in the studio, or in the songwriting process, as they once did, though there was some effort during the making of The Ladder to correct this ...

it is this aspect of Yes that I would hope to see revived --- the active collaboration in songwriting and recording that they once practiced, regardless of the specifics of method they employ ...

[Skyward]

Well, a few years have passed and I'm just now posting something regarding this very fine effort. Was it Fairbairn that motivated our 'boys' to perform so magnificently? IMHO, this album is a masterwork in and of itself. While some may refer to its contents as occasionally "poppy", I think a more appropriate term would be animated and/or lively! So, what's wrong with a surge of positive vibrations? "Lightning Strikes" and "Face to Face" are simply electric and "Homeworld" resonates with a feel that pulls in the old YES sound in its wake. Every number is strong though there are some stronger than others. When compared to the rest of the YES cannon, this one easily climbs to the lofty perches held by the likes of GFTO, at least in this poster's opinion.

[tardistraveler]

Well said, Skyward! I find the songs in The Ladder to be energetic, and full of life! I have been listening to this album more and more these days, and it's coming to be a favorite!

[R'tanys]

I've always liked this one. Especially Lightning Strikes/Can I/Face to Face and To Be Alive. The Messenger is also a fave of mine from this album.

[Ron Drummond]

Finally! R'tanys, you're the first person (other than myself) to have mentioned "To Be Alive" on this thread. Yes! That song is so incredible, it is one of the most positive, life-affirming songs ever written by a band that specializes in life-affirming songs.

It's a heart-cleanser, that song, it's an eye-opener, it's a great way to prepare for the day, because it reminds me why I'm alive and makes me eager to go out and meet it and embrace it and add my energy to taking it higher, Yes!

Your temple is the harmony
You feel the sacred ground
Just wishing for the secret
To appear within the sound

Watching for the morning star
The rhythm of the sun
I hear it in my waking dreams
The singing has begun

The passion that we walk upon
The passion that we bring
Is written for the mountains
They love to hear us sing


Those lines just send shivers up and down my spine.

"Everybody wants some -- to feel alive". And I hear that, I cannot help but believe that we could make the world a better place if we could teach everyone to remember that simple fact -- "Everybody wants some -- to feel alive". Just remember that when you're getting mad at someone, or wanting to fight or teach somebody a lesson, or if you find yourself talking bad about a person or worse a group of people -- if we just remind ourselves -- "Everybody wants some -- to feel alive" -- we can begin to see why people do the things they do.

It just stops you, it reminds you, it opens up a sky-sized window in your brain and you realize everyone alive, no matter how different they are, are looking through that same window, we're together dammit, we're in this together in a big way, and everbody wants some, and if they're not getting it, no wonder they get a little sullen, you know? You want it too!

[leqin]

Weak? - xcuse me but this baby was the strongest thing they threw up in like ages. I don't know who was going through some rough patch but this band weren't and 'Ladder' shouts it at every verse - if it was LP vinyl I would have worn it out god alone knows how many times by now - it's CD and it scratches and I've had to get myself a new copy every other year since 99 I play it so much - re-think it? - I didn't have to and it's perfect

[Ron Drummond]

Right on, leqin, way to go! Awesome album, bursting with life!

Now why do my new posts always wind up at the bottom of the previous page, where everyone will miss them?

Me and my long rhapsodies -- maybe if I wrote shorter messages, eh?

[leqin]

Originally posted by Ron Drummond
Right on, leqin, way to go! Awesome album, bursting with life!

Now why do my new posts always wind up at the bottom of the previous page, where everyone will miss them?

Me and my long rhapsodies -- maybe if I wrote shorter messages, eh?

No problem Rob - PM me and I will post enough to make you a sticky on the 'Todays Posts' page :D

now then where was I - ah yes

Golden mountains golden seas
A thousand reasons singing to me
Alive to this message
Realising it all
Be a good day

Learning to listen learning to see
Learning is power making me free
Free to believe again in my human side
Giving me good reason
Giving me good reason

:1loudspkr :band: :1loudspkr

[tardistraveler]

Ron - I saw your post and I don't think I will listen to To Be Alive in quite the same way again! Thanks for your life-affirming insight to this one.

Leqin - The Ladder is rapidly becoming one of my favorites. I have played it non-stop in my car for the last couple of weeks! Hope I don't wear out my copy!

[Gato]

Well, The Ladder, The Ladder...
I know I posted something similar to this before, but think it got lost during THE CRASH (btw, this was caused by the evil gnomes - just read the thread devoted to them and you'll be convinced if you're not already):

I like this album. I liked it right from the start. The only two pieces I've never been quite happy with are Lighting Strikes and Face to Face - to me they sound as if they were a not needed attempt at a Teakbois Part II & Part III. Teakbois was fine by me, but I see no reason to revisit it. One Teakbois is good; two is one too many; three..., especially when it's in the very same album no. 2 is in... (imo, of course).

And, well, maybe To Be Alive (Hep Yadda) is not too "Yessy" and a little bit too "poppy", but it's so bl***y (excuse me!) good I can't care at all! The rest of the album, imo, ranges from fine to great, magnificent, superb (keep on adding any praising superlative adjectives you can come up with, please).
Homeworld caught me instantly and it's been up in my list ever since, together with any Yes classic. I regard this song and the studio tracks from Keys (especially those from Keys II as an irrefutable proof of the fact Yes can still produce music of the highest level.

[leqin]

Actually - just to keep Jack happy cause it is his thread and just to keep Ron 'The Ladder's biggest fan' likewise happy - when I bought the morning paper and it was plastered all over the front page - SHOCK - HORROR - ANDERSON FALLS OFF LADDER - FULL PAGE COLOR SPREAD ON PAGES 1,2,3 and 4 - EDITORIAL ON PAGE 8 - I was convinced that it meant Jon had been standing on a CD, or tripped up after Jannie left part of their collection strewn across the floor - stranger things happen - you never know - maybe they should have titled it 'The Foot Stool' or something lower like 'The Carpet' :D

[Erdy1]

Well, I think Homeworld is a great song (great game, too!). Some of the other tracks are ok, but I really don't like "It Will Be A Good Day," "If Only You Knew," "To Be Alive (Hep Yadda)," "The Messenger," or "New Language" (Although the intro is great). I've tried, but I just do not like these songs. I finally got past the annoying thump...thump beat of "Lightning Strikes" to appreciate it for being a fun song to dance to with my kids.

For me, The Ladder is just one more uneven step that leaves me totally confused about what exactly Yes is trying to accomplish during the last decade. I was very happy with Magnification, though, and am looking forward to the future . . .

[tardistraveler]

Leqin - You are TOO funny! But I don't think people would have flocked to buy the latest Yes album - The Carpet!

Gato - I agree wtih your feelings about the songs you mentioned. I also am quite taken with New Languages, has a "hook" that gets me! The River and If Only You Knew speak to my soul. A superlative album!

[electricfreedom]

I bought the Ladder a week after its release and a month after purchasing tickets to the Tampa Perf. Arts Yesshow (my first). I fell in love with the album as soon as Homeworld was done playing. I actually believed that this was their best effort as a band since Drama. And much of that should be given to the fact that the Ladder was recorded live in the studio, like the early Yes albums were recorded, as opposed to Trevor Rabin/Record Company method of recording a Yes album. I'm not saying that Rabin's tenure in the band was a weak point. My favorite album of that period is Talk, w/ 90125 right behind them. But the Rabin/Record Company was where everyody put in his two cents in during separate sessions and Jon would be the last to record anything. This method would bring in mixed results and the music would suffer. Great examples of that would be Union and parts of Big Generator. Anyway, back to the Ladder.

Watching them perform Homeworld live in the studio on the cd rom advert portion of the disc was a great treat for me. Seeing the classic Roger Dean logo fading in on the computer monitor gave me that warm tingly feeling like that of any Yesevent. I feel that the album would've a very successful one if the right promotions were done. And I blame a lot of the promotion or lack of it on Beyond. I mean they don't do anythng with Yes other than have them tour. Around that time Blondie had released No Exit", their comeback album. With the aid of VH1 Behind the Music and a new music video, Maria, the album ended up in the top 40 of the Billboard alum charts. That's a place in the chart that Yes hasn't seen in nearly 10 years since Talk (which hit 36 on the album chart). Blondie and Yes both shared the same label and it just seems like that Beyond seemed to have been pushing more for the Miss Deborah than our guys. To me that's what Yes needs to do is to have some sort of music video airplay as well. And I don't just mean have it for internet viewing and then put it on a dvd like Dont Go was. But something like VH1 Classic (which only shows videos for Owner, Love Will Find a Way, Rhythm, and clips of 9012Live w/ yessymphonic). Sure the guys don't look as youthful as they did 30 years ago. But neither does Blondie.
Well, I think I just wasted this thread of rambling and complaining about Beyond Music. So, my sincere apology for my ramble.

[eri-chan]

ah, The Ladder

the first time I heard this album was in the car driving home from Michigan last Christmas. My mom put it on while I was driving, and if you've ever driven the stretch of highway from Michigan to Ohio, you know there isn't a whole lot to look at. So, I was able to devote more attention to the music thna I normally would on a first listen, and I fell in love with it from the first track. I adore the melodic quality of their newer music, and I think so much of The Ladder is exactly what I'm talking about. Homeworld doesn't quite match he epic quality of older tracks like CttE, but it sure tries, and it sounds beautiful in the process. It Will Be a Good Day makes me want to cry everytime I hear it because it moves me so deeply and inspires me constantly. Lightening Strikes is just plain fun (though not my favorite track) and I love the tribal, ancient feel of Can I?, even if I don't understand it :shrug: Face to Face is a great listen with an awesome chorus, and If Only You Knew, even if it is a little cliche, is still very touching and sweet and can usually make me feel lonely on a friday night. To Be Alive is probably one of my favorite yessongs of all time....I'm not sure I can even describe why, I just love the lyrics and the melody so much, I could listen to it over and over again. its so uplifting and positive, it just makes me feel happy to be alive...haha and i guess thats the idea, isnt it?

Finally isn't really one of my fvorite tracks either, but I definitely think it has its redeeming qualities - I'm rather fascinated with Jon's voice quality in that one., its much more primal and gutteral than anything else I've heard from him (so far). The Messenger and New Languages to me kinda feel like one long track, but they're wonderful songs and I love them on their own, especially the chorus of new Languages. And Nine Voices is a lovely closer, I think it rounds out the whole album and winds it down really well. My only real complaint with the album is that it isn't long enough ;) Its very very different from the rest of the yes oeuvre, but I love it the way it is.

[tardistraveler]

Eri-chan - I enjoyed your critique - well thought out!

I'm enjoying The Ladder right now - seems like there's always a Yes album that I fixate on at different points in my life that seems to sum up the direction my life is heading. For me right now, it's The Ladder. It has the right mix of joy and hope to provide meaning in my current circumstances.

[Dances w/PURPLE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eri-chan
[B]ah, The Ladder

the first time I heard this album was in the car driving home from Michigan last Christmas. My mom put it on while I was driving, and if you've ever driven the stretch of highway from Michigan to Ohio, you know there isn't a whole lot to look at. So, I was able to devote more attention to the music thna I normally would on a first listen, and I fell in love with it from the first track.



Erica I know that stretch, in fact, the stretch from Toledo to Cinci could follow as well. Excellent points made here. Good to see you on YESFANS deviant you and all!

Electric- Being a Blondie fan I see your points well made. One would think that with the limited amount of music she has produced, what on earth was the record company pulling for with all the BTM and VH-1? She did get much press for the come back tour (saw her at TBPA and her voice is still there) but the boys never left! Spot on that they are not as young as they use to be and YES, neither is she but she did still have it working on stage. Would love to see some new releases of the music with some Roger Dean. There is much potential beyond the limited amount of music video released thus far.


Good points all! Great discussion going on here.


Next>>>>>>>>

[eri-chan]

Originally posted by tardistraveler
Eri-chan - I enjoyed your critique - well thought out!

I'm enjoying The Ladder right now - seems like there's always a Yes album that I fixate on at different points in my life that seems to sum up the direction my life is heading. For me right now, it's The Ladder. It has the right mix of joy and hope to provide meaning in my current circumstances.

Thats exactly how I've been feeling lately. I'm at a point in my life where I feel like I can relate to a lot of what is in that album, especially the joyful parts.......i used to have a lot of problems that made life really difficult for me, but in the past 6 months or so i've started feeling better, and i think discovering yes was part of the catalyst that brought that about. I've felt so full of hope and optimism lately, and listening to tracks like To Be Alive and It Will Be A Good Day keeps those feeling alive in me.

[tardistraveler]

Eri-chan, I too have had a turbulent life experience recently, and am realizing right now all the wonderful things that are in my life. The Ladder provides an affirmation of that for me right now!

[GoD57]

I hadn't listened to The Ladder for a long while, then last week I grabbed it on the way to work. I can't believe I let this disc sit for so long. The first time I listened to it I thought it was just generic Yes music, same old stuff from the last 15 years, boy was I wrong!!!
I have fallen in love with Homeworld!!!! It'll be a Good Day, Lightning Strikes and the rest are all better than anything I've heard in years. I think this is their best album since Drama.
Remember that this comes from a tie-dyed in the wool, stuck in the 70's trooper: I think that Homeworld isn't just the second best mini epic, it's the second best song since Relayer.

Of course that's just my opinion

Bill

as I will always need you inside my heart

[Ron Drummond]

Hello Gates of Delirium Nineteen Fifty-Seven! Haven't seen you around before, greetings!

Delighted to read your enthusiasm for The Ladder. I had roughly the same experience as you -- listened to it two or three times when I first got it, wasn't that impressed, then a year or so later, after Magnification came out and I'd fallen in love with it, I went back to The Ladder and just couldn't believe how good it is!

The Ladder takes my vote for the best-produced Yes album ever -- the sheer sound of that recording is unbelievable from top to bottom. I think it's Jon's sweetest singing ever -- his voice just sounds incredibly beautiful throughout. And then it is quite possible the most outright joyful album Yes has ever made. Talk about life-affirming!

It's also Yes's most Beatlesque album -- there's just something infectiously good-humored about the whole thing, and the vocal mesh is really nice because they could add Billy Sherwood's excellent singing voice to the mix. And Steve and Billy had worked out a really incredible rapport with one another on two guitars. The rhythm section is about as tight, as clean, and as kick-ass as you'd ever want -- Woo-wee Chris and Alan, DUDES!!!

And finally Igor Khoroshev gets my vote as Yes's second-best keyboardist (after Rick) -- his contributions are fresh, full of energy, and yet he's not showing off the way Rick sometimes does, his focus is always on doing what's best for the music, and his choices are inevitably dead-on.

Awesome album, and even though there are one and a half songs I don't like on it, it's just about my all-time favorite Yes album at this point.

I urge everybody who has a copy gathering dust on their shelves, take it out again and crank it up! GoD57 is right!

[Earl Grey]

An amazing epic... I wish that YES would travel to places like that more often... Igor does get dismissed a lot by fans at times, but he is a fine keyboardist... I've never really heard an argument against Igor that held water...
Igor is a great fusion between Moraz and Wakey... Yet, his own distinct style comes through, Igor has a different feel for the instrument than any other Yesmen past or present (Look at some of the rave-like sounds he interjected into things like 'Lightning Strikes' and 'Face To Face'! Where's my ecstacy pill?).

That was a new sound for YES, and evolution is what we are hoping for in our band... Igor took YES into new realms, that is always a good thing... As long as YES can still give us a reasonable facimile of Starship Trooper or CTTE as well... ;)

Igor was the right stuff. He was 'let-go' for acting like a rock star... fired by Rock Stars who were acting like rock stars...
I probably shouldn't mention that! Oops, just did!

Ah well: just in Igor's defense here...
And don't get me wrong:
I was cheering louder than anyone when Wakey took the stage this year...

It would be fun to hear Wakey play 'Homeworld' live... I figure we'll hear it around the same time we hear Mind Drive.

I really enjoyed Igor's contributions to the band... An excellent Yesman, and not to be dismissed.

:ele:

[R'tanys]

I have to echo your sentiments re: Igor, Earl. I thought he did a fine job with the rest of the guys. The Ladder is, IMHO, the best Yes album in the last 20 years. I can't for the life of me understand what anyone could possibly have against it.

[BrianD]

Originally posted by Earl Grey
An amazing epic...

It would be fun to hear Wakey play 'Homeworld' live... I figure we'll hear it around the same time we hear Mind Drive.

:ele:

Absolutely! This is a fantastic track - love it, the live version on HoB is brilliant. Hope Wakeman does try it some dasy - that would be fun!

[GoD57]

Ron,
I may not post very often, but I'm here just about every day. I don't usually stay long, but I check in several times a day.


I wish I had your passion for Magnification. I like the title track but that's it. I had hoped that hearing Mag and ITPO live last year would have helped...no such luck. I even bought 2 copies, I just had to have the Gates bonus disc. I'll listen to it again in a few months and see what happens.
I won't give up on it because too many people here seem to love it.

Bill

[Ron Drummond]

Bill, I think you have a good attitude towards Magnification. Keeping an open mind and biding your time can allow a lot of good music to find its moment. Then again, it just may be that M will never click with you. Hey, not everyone loves Beethoven, but there aren't many people who would seriously argue that Ludwig is not among the greatest composers of all time. We can't expect to click with everything good, in part because, even with all the crap in our culture, there's still an incredible abundance of good music out there too, and we all resonate in our own ways with our surround.

I listened to Magnification the other day for the first time in several months, and found the freshet still rising from that well. It's a beautiful album. Thinking about ways I might suggest you prepare your mind for your next hearing, it occurred to me that in M, more than in any other Anderson/Howe/Squire band formation, the composers involved all succeeded in creating a single thing, a single stream of music, as though a single composer penned it all. I know a lot of folks have trouble with the contrasting sounds of the orchestra and the band, but to my ears the blend achieved is quite extraordinary. But again it's as though they managed to sublimate their individual egos to the collective task of creating a single entity.

Much of the genius of classic Yes was in the stunning juxtaposition of several very original egos, where in a song like Heart of the Sunrise you can parse out, okay, Steve wrote this part, this is Rick's descending/ascending arpeggio, here's Chris's incredible floating bass line and Jon responding to it with his lyric liltings, here's Bill's incredible time signature, etc. -- and you can literally hear the puzzle pieces being fitted together. With Magnification, the music speaks with a singular voice, and far from being homogeneous it's really quite marvelously eloquent and varied -- AS a single voice.

It's also laid back in the best sense -- as Jon sings at one point, the band really has "nothing more to prove". They're simply joining together to make incredibly soulful, singing music, and in my view they succeed profoundly . Keep spinning it, let it be, allow the melodies to insinuate their way into your deepest listening self. Maybe it's not particularly innovative in terms of things no one has done before, but does it have to be? It's both new for them and simultaneously the apotheosis of their style, while centrally being about the music, just beautiful music with no apologies and nothing to prove, dark and light celebrations unafraid of simplicity or grace.

[eri-chan]

I enjoyed your thoughts Ron, I never really looked at Mag that way but I can completely agree with what your saying. When Yes was new, their biggest strength was, at least in part, their innovation. Now, though, everyone knows exactly what they're cpaable of, so why not take it a little easier and just write some beautiful music for the sake of music? I think its a wonderful approach for them to have taken. Even if the album wasn't as progressive as their early work, you can't argue that they didn't do what they did to the best of their ability, and they did it a hell of a lot better than most other bands who have attempted similar sounds. I can't say I've heard very many other orchestral/rock fusions that sounded as good as Mag did.

I think the same is true of The Ladder, really. Its not the most new and original music they've ever produced, and some of it is very cliche, but dammit it sure sounds good. Who cares is "If Only You Knew" is your typical love ballad, its still a beautiful song. Homeworld may not be quite on the epic level of CttE, but I think its stands well enough on its own as a new sort of epic, one thats perhaps a little more accessible to new fans. Which brings me to another point- I can't help but wonder if some of the reason they're newer albums are so different could be that they were trying to attract a new, younger fanbase. You know, perpetuate the legend so to speak.

[chargerboy]

It only took about 3 1/2 years, but I'm finally liking some of this album. I've railed on this piece of work many times as being such a disappointment, especially considering the pre-release publicity. It really disappointed me.

Sometimes I think situations can cloud judgement. We were going through a rough period when The Ladder was released, and I think that, combined with the fact that I thought it was really weak anyway, just turned me off big time.

Recently, we've been watching HOB Live (a lot), and I'm really liking the Ladder tracks, especially Homeworld, The Messenger, and It Will Be A Good Day. These really are good songs, so some re-asessing is in order.

However, I still think Lightning Strikes and the Peter Cetera sound alike song (If Only You Knew) are still awfully weak for Yes. But it's been nice watching my opinion change about much of this album.

Any other thoughts about The Ladder or that particular line-up?


I got the Ladder cd and though it did take a bit for it to grow on me, I really love the album now. Just as an extra, though, I think that it would be good to have a version of the cd avaliable without the vocals. Don't get me wrong, I really like the album and the lyrics are good, but a version with less or no vocals would be a nice addition. Does anyone know if there is one or might be one? Thanks! Ciao tutti!

[Ralf Eigl]

Except for Homeworld, this is a major disappointment and If Only You Knew is just soooo embarrassing.

[YesJen357]

Compared to many, I am apparently an exception.....
The Ladder is my personal favourite Yes album. But then it came to me at a certain point in time, as many great pieces of music do. It touched my life in a precious and positive way. Something I'm very grateful for, was that I was fortunate enough to tell Jon Anderson in person how much that album meant to me.
I love The Ladder! I'm not ashamed to say it!

[Jackaranda]

A lot of people do love it. Good for them.

Still, I think Homeworld and It Will Be A Good Day are great, classic Yes songs. The rest kinda falls short for me.

[shortexchanges]

I appreciated that they actually toured the ladder and did not only do one or two songs from the disc. The messenger live at hob rocks harder than the studio counterpart, homeworld, face to face, lightning strikes, make nice additions to the catalog, nine voices sugueing into all good people would be wonderful to watch live.

The songs that disapoint were designed to get them back on adult oriented fm and lite rock stations. Like Owner of a lonely heart and roundabout got people to listen to the other songs and hopefully increase the fan base.

I think you could mix a first class late 90's disc on the better songs of open your eyes and the ladder that would stand in a different context against the best in the entire catalog.

[Albedo]

I think the Ladder is a pretty good album. I especially like Homeworld, and (call me crazy) I like Hep Yadda.

[Vic Anderson]

it the album that got me into yes and it holds a special place in my heart :)

[gus]

I don’t know what to say, I loved the album when it came out and still do. And I’m real thankful we got the live CD and DVD from HOB from this tour and it’s packed full of Ladder songs. The Ladder is easily in my top 10 favorite Yes albums.

I guess if I was to pick out a reason why, is it would be the variety of styles tried on this album. Epic pieces like Homeworld and New Messenger (which I absolutely love), pop with Lightning Strikes (which is great fun), and we have for the first time a horn arrangement in a Yes song and we even try some reggae. It’s a very diverse album for Yes, and I think it works pretty well. But I do understand the unevenness of the album because it tries to be so much at once that it doesn’t flow along a similar vein, which can be disrupting.

And with every Yes album it’s not perfect, it’s got it’s good and bad, but overall I think it’s a great album.

[neilius]

I loved it when it first came out.
Havent heard it in a while.
My copy is signed, will swap for mini-moog!

[Mostly Harmless]

A lot of people do love it. Good for them.

Still, I think Homeworld and It Will Be A Good Day are great, classic Yes songs. The rest kinda falls short for me.


Ditto

[Albedo]

Since I saw this thread I have gone back and listened to The Ladder several times. I thing Hep Yadda is becoming one of my favorite Yes songs. It's infectious. There are so many positive and spiritual lyrics on this album (even though interspersed with the occasional trite phrase). Great album imo.

[Hugh Shiebler]

At the time, 1999, it was kind of the triumph of hope over experience. I mean, I REALLY wanted a new Yes album, and I REALLY wanted to like it.

I guess that I saw the Igor + Sherwood in 1997 or 1998; if you had ever told me that I would be watching Yes play "The Revealing Science of God" live I would have have asked for some of whatever you were taking. Despite the absence of Wakeman (and mostly that: oh, god, not again feeling) that show really blew me away. They even played "Children of Light".

So I was rooting for them. And besides, as I just posted elsewhere, having lived through 1980 > 1989 > Union > Dis-union > Re-generator ("Talk") etc., I had come to terms with Yes as a mutifacected, mercurial entity, to appreciate whatever each incarnation had to offer.

I actually liked "Open Your Eyes" at the time - - at least the title track and "Universal Garden". It just was what it was & could be enjoyed as such if you were not expecting "Mind Drive Revisited".

When "The Ladder" came out I listened to it a lot. I liked "Homeworld" and "It Will Be A Good Day" a lot. Some of it made me cringe, but I just accepted that as part of the deal!! Tellingly, neither OYE or "The Ladder" beacme albums that I continued to listen to. Like lots of others, I re-discovered it on the House of Blues DVD & learned to appreciate it all over. With OYE, that came when I bought the "In a Word" compilation. I think that the two OYE selections stand up in context - no mean feat!

[buckleyfancy]

I often like to listen to the Ladder to start the day. It is full of very positive messages (as several have noted above). The title track rocks! Incidentally, the "radio edit" of this song on The Ultimate YES is soooo frustrating. It reminds me of Frankenstein - a bunch of pieces sown together. This song really worked live, too. I'd love to hear it live some day (but I'm not holding my breath).

[Scooty]

I never had to rethink this album. I loved it when it came out and still it has a very close place to my heart. The Ladder was released weeks after my girlfriend of 5 years dropped the bomb on me that she didn't love me anymore, never wanted to get married or have kids..basically..SEE YA!!

I was heartbroken, devestated...
The Ladder was released and it literally SPOKE to me.
"New Language"~moving on "I take this experience as a metaphor for moving on"
"Finally"~moving on "Walk the final distance, learn to live again."
"It Will be A Good Day"~ recognizing the world is beautiful, and wonder is where you find it. "How mighty this earth... truth is in birth"
"Lightning Strikes"~Waking up from the dream..or nightmare.."waking up..waking to the power."
This album spoke volumes about where I was emotionally, lifted me and took me back to being me, I always knew there was a reason Yes was and is my favorite band :)

[allpurechance]

Ah,Scoot-I've seen you post this before...

Just yesterday,I played most of The Ladder for my sister(who lost her husband this past winter,suddenly)...

Although,I think I was the only one,lol-I enjoyed it very much!Much,much more than previous listenings...this is a highly recurrent Yes pattern(through time,the material always just seems to improve...)!

Magnification did much the same for me!Healed and seemed to speak directly to me at a time when I needed it,so.

How many more reasons do I need to commit myself to unconditional love for Yes?

None!It's done!

Frank

:O)(continues to grin,goofily---and I'm good with that!LOL!)

[Hugh Shiebler]

I never knew this! (How guitarist Jimmy Haun replaced most of Steve Howe's parts on UNION)

http://www.bondegezou.demon.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm

Jimmy Haun:

I remember hearing "Roundabout" on the radio once and it changed my whole perspective on music. So I bought the record and listened over and over. Next I bought Close to the Edge and of course learned "And You and I". But the real pivot point for me as a guitarist was locking myself in my room for one month and learning Yes's version of "America" note for note..

HP: How did you get involved on Union?

JH: Well, I got a call one day from my friend Steve Porcaro (who knew of my love of Yes) and he said they (Arista) were looking for a guitar player who could sound like Steve Howe. So I went to A&M studios in Hollywood to meet Jon Elias and he played me the rough tracks for the new ABWH album. Basically he told me Arista felt Steve's guitar parts were unacceptable and that he had just soloed over all the songs. Now this was partially true. What they wanted was a blend of the old classic Steve Howe sound mixed with Trevor Rabin! I guess they felt it would sell more records. So Jonathan gave me a mix of three songs with no guitar on them ("Without Hope", "Dangerous" and "Silent Talking"), told me to do what Howe/Rabin would do. So in my home studio I recorded wall to wall guitar parts and mailed Jonathan the tape to New York.

HP: When you came in to do the guitar parts, who were you working with in the studio?

JH: I would track from 5pm till usually 5am. I did this for a straight month and a half with no days off. Basically, they made a 24-track slave tape with a rough mix of the song with Jon's vocal and I would lay ideas on the remaining 20 or so tracks. After each session Jonathan [Elias] would play it for Jon Anderson and I would get feedback that way. It was Jon Anderson, Jon Elias and one other person (whom I've been asked not to mention) who made the final decision what part would go on the album.

HP: So tell us about the details of Union...

JH: Arista really wanted classic Steve Howe and I guess they felt they weren't getting it with the existing parts. So I did my best and I think a lot of it worked (I even fooled some band members). Arista was originally not going to credit me at all, so I was lucky to get what credit I got. So for posterity here's what was Steve and what was me.

Track 1: "I Would Have Waited Forever". The opening riff is me (Arista wanted this sort of a "Starship Trooper" thing), then Steve really just played the recurring single thread line at 0:24 to 0:49 and the end solo. I played all the other guitars (electrics, acoustic, some effect overdubs).

Track 2: "Shock to the System". Must have been a shock to Steve's system—there is simply no Steve Howe on that at all! Steve had, of course, written the opening riff (which I ended up replacing for sonic reasons). I think this was my favorite track because I got to write most of the riffs and there was this new section we came up with and tacked on at 4:10 and the riff is very reminiscent of "Gates of Delirium". And I had to replace some of the bass! (Tony Levin left his bass at the studio so we got his exact sound and added the sections.) I guess Steve refused to play this section live. (This is the track that Rabin played for Steve on the plane during the Union tour and Steve's mouth dropped.)

Track 5: "Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day". Once again there is no Steve Howe on this at all (I don't think Steve ever even heard this song). Jon and Jonathan wrote this one.

Track 8: "Silent Talking". I replaced the main riff because there were timing discrepancies and I tried to get as close to Steve Howe's sound as I could. There are a couple of riffs that were kept of Steve's, where you can hear his tone is a little different, like at 0:46 to 1:03.

Track 11: "Dangerous". No Steve here. Not one of my favorites on the album but the one I guess I was "featured" on, oh well.

Track 12: "Holding On". Steve just played the first main riff at 0:31 to 0:47 and that's it folks. There is a lot of riffing on this especially toward the end, but it is all me and I think it's a pretty good likeness of Steve.

Track 14: "Take the Water to the Mountain". No Steve here either. Lots of Howe likenesses though.

Track 15: "Give and Take". It starts out Steve on the main melody and I did harmonics over that. I played all of the verses as well as the chorus. Steve's sound is basically the distorted thinner sound that never changes tone. It was that way on all his tracks and I think the powers that be felt there needed to be more colors from the guitars, hence my involvement.

HP: Looking back, how do you view Union now? What did you think of the mostly negative reaction among Yes fans to the album, and what do you think of it yourself these days?

JH: I think that the record is very palatable and has a lot to offer musically. I do understand the fan reaction and I think a lot of it has little to do with the musical aspect, but rather the political and the fact that there isn't much Yes there. And if I was Steve Howe, I would have been ticked off if someone came in and replaced my parts too. But I did try to be sensitive to his sound and style like using a Gibson ES-175 and stuff.

HP: And how do you feel when somebody says, "I liked Steve Howe's guitar work on that track," when you know that was actually you?

JH: Well, flattered because I fooled them into thinking it was Steve and frustrated because of the lack of credit, but that's OK.

HP: We've talked a bit about being a Yes fan yourself: how did you get into the band? What are your favorite Yes songs/albums? And what do you think of the most recent Yes albums, since Union?

JH: I heard "Roundabout" at a party in 1971 and it sounded like heaven or something, so different than anything on the radio. So I bought the single with "Long Distance Runaround" on the back. I ended up buying every Yes album possible and eagerly awaiting the next release. I have to say my favorite album is Close to the Edge, then Relayer—Steve's solo in "To be Over" is a masterpiece. Then Topographic Oceans. To me, Yes became a different animal after 90125, not that I didn't enjoy them, Rabin's work was brilliant, still it seemed to become a pop machine so my interest in the newer started drifting and I kept going back to the Topographic Ocean's and Close to the Edge's. Billy [Sherwood]'s involvement was very important. He did and wanted to do so much for that band, but as Rabin said it's a very tough position.

[Scooty]

Oh yeah man, Union is a pure and unadulterated travesty..

Disgusting that they call it a YES album at all...

"The Jimmy Haun Project" anyone??? ;)

I have nothing but pure distain for Onion...it reaks of corporate sell out...can you smell it??

[Amy]

LOL! I thought this was The Ladder thead!!

[Scooty]

Way to bring this back on topic Amy!!...LOL!!

Sorry, but the man mentioned Union..and you know how I react when I hear that word....D'oh!


Ummmm..HOMEWORLD ROCKS!!
There we go..right back on topic..yeah, thats it..;)

[Scooty]

it the album that got me into yes and it holds a special place in my heart :)


I think this is really cool Vic.

[Hugh Shiebler]

Sorry, I clearly have not figured out this whole THREAD thing yet.

Maybe I thought this was the "RETHINKING ______" thread......

yeah.......

[Amy]

Sorry, I clearly have not figured out this whole THREAD thing yet.

Maybe I thought this was the "RETHINKING ______" thread......

yeah.......

Nothing wrong with that. I was laughing at Scooty...he just doesn't realize it.

[Hugh Shiebler]

Well, now I know that I belong here - - posting lengthy paste ups on a 14 year old album at 3:30 in the morn.....

Somebody send me an ambien

[Whitefish]

I think the Ladder is a pretty good album. I especially like Homeworld, and (call me crazy) I like Hep Yadda.

I totally agree!

[allpurechance]

Ga-hawd!LOL!....

I even like Can I?...!

[Albedo]

Magnification did much the same for me!Healed and seemed to speak directly to me at a time when I needed it,so.



Yeah that's it. Yes does that for me over and over. It's great to be on a site where people UNDERSTAND this. Lord knows, no one else I know does.

[Judge Judy]

I think The Ladder is probably one of the strongest Yes albums of the last ten years, but it's still spotty in places. For me the high points are "Homeworld," "To Be Alive" and "Nine Voices." On the downside, I loathe "If Only You Knew", partially because it's semi-cribbed from the "We Are Flintstones Kids" commercial jingle.

[ThePatman]

The first time I heard The Ladder, I thought it was really good... I like it better now! Nine Voices is a real treat, one of my favs on the record. :headset:

[inside_out]

I think The Ladder is probably one of the strongest Yes albums of the last ten years, but it's still spotty in places. For me the high points are "Homeworld," "To Be Alive" and "Nine Voices." On the downside, I loathe "If Only You Knew", partially because it's semi-cribbed from the "We Are Flintstones Kids" commercial jingle.

I think you might to go back further than ten years in Yes history to find one as good. Like 1979.

[GoD57]

I think you might to go back further than ten years in Yes history to find one as good. Like 1979.


Exactly!!!!


Bill

[Hill St.]

I have had this album for awhile but,never really gave it the time it deserved.I'm happy to say its been in constant rotation as of late.Favorite track "New Language"

[RABARKS]

"If Only You Knew" steals a riff from Bread's "Make It With You," Jack ... to me, that represents an all-time low ...

Do you think that was deliberate? And if so, is it worse than rehashing Boundaries on Someday Somehow Something or whatever it's called?

By the way, the same riff appears on 10CC's I'm Mandy Fly Me, just before the 1st verse!


:headset:

[Vic W.]

"If Only You Knew" steals a riff from Bread's "Make It With You," Jack ... to me, that represents an all-time low ...

Yours Is No Disgrace "steals a riff" from Bonanza. All Good People "steals a riff" from the Beatles.

I wouldn't get overly exited about a riff.

[Clankbass]

To get back on topic, The Ladder is great. Just listened to it end to end on a 2-hour car trip last night. The most consistently strong Yes album in years....in fact, at the end I was thinking it might be the best post-CTTE album, heretical as that might sound. I really think it shows the importance of a strong producer for this band...while KeysStudio, like Tormato years before it, shows what happens when there isn't one.....chaos.

[brotherofmine]

I fell in love with The Ladder from the first listening. It is a strong album and very much in the mould of ABWH, except of course including Chris so even better.:headset:
Re: 'If only you knew'...I think it is Ok for Jon to also do a personal love song as well as the 'spiritual love' song. I also don't feel that I am intruding on Jon, feelings of love are quite universal, and others like myself can relate to the feelings that Jon sings about..the experience if not the exact situation, so you can hear it and say..'Yes, that's how I feel.' I like it.
The Ladder is a great album.

[jambo]

It will be a good day is one of my favorite yes songs, Whenever i feel down i put on that song and it makes be feel so much better, like there wasnt a problem to start with!

[smatt]

I love the Ladder, no doubt, it was a strong effort, especialy after OYE. Not a awesome Yes album, but a strong one indeed. I really do wish they'd done more of it live, as I thought what the did play live, came off very good indeed!

[Jackaranda]

It came off beautifully live. HOB is a wonderful concert all the way around.

Still, If Only You Knew may be Yes' all time low point. Jon should have given that one to Peter Cetera and Amy Grant.

[Clankbass]

Still, If Only You Knew may be Yes' all time low point.

I don't know about that, but it is the low point of the Ladder. Still, even so I do like the bridge of the song, with the George Martin strings. I wish they had expanded that theme and drained some of the Peter Cetera sap.

But I can find lower points on Tormato, Big Generator, Union, KTA2 with no trouble.

[The Whale]

It will be a good day is one of my favorite yes songs, Whenever i feel down i put on that song and it makes be feel so much better, like there wasnt a problem to start with!


My thoughts to! I love this album the first Yes CD I ever bought was House of Blues, before that all I had heard was CTTE and Fragile. I honestly didn't know what songs where old or new they all sounded like Yes, to me Vary strong material, expecialy live. I would say with the exception of "Talk" its the best Yes album since Awaken.

[Amy]

I don't know about that, but it is the low point of the Ladder. Still, even so I do like the bridge of the song, with the George Martin strings. I wish they had expanded that theme and drained some of the Peter Cetera sap.

But I can find lower points on Tormato, Big Generator, Union, KTA2 with no trouble.
Without a doubt!! I wouldn't consider If Only You Knew a low point of the Ladder either. I don't know if there is a low point on the Ladder for me, I wasn't looking for one, but it definitely isn't that song.

The Ladder is one of those albums that I'll grab for the car when I'm in a hurry, (as is Keystudio), because I know I won't get tired of it if it should end up in the car all week. Today I grabbed Tales too. ;)

[yarstruly]

I think at this point I enjoy the Ladder even more then Magnification. Both are great, but I love the energy of the Ladder...a top notch CD!

[Jackaranda]

It's kind of a Jekyll and Hyde album for me, I guess, because Homeworld, It Will Be a Good Day, and Nine Voices are great, classic Yes songs. But some of it, I dunno. I guess I'm in a minority here.

[jaynote1]

"(I find Can I? to be a bore) ".............dude, i respectfully disagree with you intensely, i think its partly a joke(can i get away with this?), partly a nod to indiginous music(african, aboriginal),partly a redux of the original We Have Heaven....its brilliant in its construction, listen to all the different voices involved(as in the original), but done with primitive instruments.........a bore? not at all: rather a well thought-out, inspired piece of music.........

[inside_out]

CLEARLY the best since 1979.

[Clankbass]

Clearly better than Tormato...so it might be before 1979!

And Jackaranda...you didn't mention New Languages? That one is a treasure....just that one brief little part with the pulsing bass line, mellotron, and volume pedaled guitar makes it worth 20 Magnifications or KTA's.

[gitsy]

I love the Ladder, no doubt, it was a strong effort, especialy after OYE. Not a awesome Yes album, but a strong one indeed. I really do wish they'd done more of it live, as I thought what the did play live, came off very good indeed!

I love the album and feel it’s quite diverse and contemporary. I thought they plugged it well on tour playing a number of tracks. In my view the best album since Going For The One.

[The Whale]

My thoughts to! I love this album the first Yes CD I ever bought was House of Blues, before that all I had heard was CTTE and Fragile. I honestly didn't know what songs where old or new they all sounded like Yes, to me Vary strong material, expecialy live. I would say with the exception of "Talk" its the best Yes album since Awaken.


Yay before scotty or matt read this I ment to say... with the exception of "Drama and Talk". that botherd me all night long after I posted it. So with that said I thing being with those two albums speaks volumes about the quality of the Ladder.

[Amy]

Clearly better than Tormato...so it might be before 1979!

And Jackaranda...you didn't mention New Languages? That one is a treasure....just that one brief little part with the pulsing bass line, mellotron, and volume pedaled guitar makes it worth 20 Magnifications or KTA's.
I agree, I like it much more than Tormato.
New Languages is an amazing song.

[Jackaranda]

I agree, I like it much more than Tormato.
New Languages is an amazing song.


Yep. Left that one out. Sorry 'bout that.

[Jackaranda]

I think starting with Lightning Strikes and ending with Finally, that's the part of The Ladder I never liked too much. The middle of it. The first and last part of it I'd put in the Yes classics range.

[The Whale]

I love lightning strikes every none yes person I'v ever played it for loves it. I wonder if we herd it with out jon's voice and wheren't told it was yes if we would have felt diffrent about it? I think its a really cool yes tune! I can hear that beat now Boom! Boom! Boom!

[tormatotork]

They should have re-thought all of it apart from It Will Be A Good Day, which is a tremendous song.

[The Whale]

tomas
Yesfan


Join Date: May 2002
Location: santa cruz ca
Posts: 33
Re: igor, the best?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Igor was pretty good live although I thought the Ladder was a terrible Yes album.



eek! guess he didn't like the ladder much.

[The Whale]

I don't know what happend this week but for some reason this album took a huge jump for me this week. I love it. Home World, New Languages, It will be a good day, Nine Voices and even lighting strikes and the messenger are all great! I Think steve, chris, and alan just kick it on this album expecialy Chris and Steve a vary strong showing by both of them. I hope some people give this another listen.

[cvp18]

I don't know what happend this week but for some reason this album took a huge jump for me this week. I love it. Home World, New Languages, It will be a good day, Nine Voices and even lighting strikes and the messenger are all great! I Think steve, chris, and alan just kick it on this album expecialy Chris and Steve a vary strong showing by both of them. I hope some people give this another listen.


hey Jeramie. i came across the some Homeworld on myspace a month or so ago. i had it on my profile and couldnt stop listening to it. when i found what album it came from, i found it on amazon & promptly ordered it. there is just something about Homeworld that reminds me of the '70s. i think the music is great, although i dont quite get the very beginning of Lightning Strikes, the rest of the song and album is great.

carol

[CybrKhatru]

To me the only weak parts of the Ladder are To Be Alive and Finally....good but not at the same level as the rest of the album.

It begins and ends very strongly IMO with Homeworld and Nine Voices. It Will Be A Good Day is a winner...

Hearing so much new material at a Yes show was a real treat....hint, hint....nudge, nudge....;)

[JL]

I love Homeworld, New Languages, and Nine Voices.

The rest of the album is not my favorite Yes stuff, but I'd say it's better than a good deal of what was released in 1999.

IMO, Magnification was just so much better than The Ladder (or for that matter any Yes album since Drama) that it ended up completely overshadowing it upon its release. But that does not take away from all that is positive about The Ladder.

[yes_angel]

what's there to Rethink?! I took to this album real fast unlike Magnification,,,,Mag took a much longer time for me to get use to Anyways The Ladder has some real fine tunes on it! Energy!!!! YES

[Original_Shifty]

I never had a problem with this album from the get-go.

New Languages has been my fav from day 1.

It's also the only Yes album that LFB listens to on a regular basis, so with this album, we finally have some common taste.

[The Whale]

I love Homeworld, New Languages, and Nine Voices.

The rest of the album is not my favorite Yes stuff, but I'd say it's better than a good deal of what was released in 1999.

IMO, Magnification was just so much better than The Ladder (or for that matter any Yes album since Drama) that it ended up completely overshadowing it upon its release. But that does not take away from all that is positive about The Ladder.

funny you say that I agre. I think this album sufferd from two many people in the studio and two many opioins thats why I think I enjoyed Mag so much its vary unified in my opion you can tell it was Chris, Jon, Alan, and steve - thats it. Like with my absolute favoirt Yes album Tales when mostly Jon and Steve did all the writng vary good things happend. I think on that note less is more.

[GatesOfDelirium]

I simply can't claim to like everything here- Lightning Strikes, If Only You Knew and To Be Alive are very cheesy to my ears- but I felt there was more top grade Yes material on here than anything else they'd done since Drama. Homeworld, Face To Face, New Languages, The Messenger and Nine Voices were the standouts.

I actually much prefer this to Magnification. Perhaps Magnification was sonically a bit less 'adult contemporary' in production, but for me most of the material on Magnification isn't all that great- only the title track, Can You Imagine and In The Presence Of I have much time for.

[gitsy]

Simply the best album they have put out since the 70's

[Doktor Rokster]

Just listening to The Ladder again after quite a while and really enjoying it. I'm not really keen on If Only You Knew, but stopping for a break on that one does nicely split the album into two halves...like a good old fahioned vinyl album. I like the fact that The Ladder is quite poppy and doesn't try to compete with the "classics". I also think the songwriting is very strong, as of course, is the playing. It's a great shame that Igor had to go, because he brought something special into the band: both in the studio and live. All in all, I think The Ladder is a very worthwhile addition to the Yes canon: for me, it's probably the best the band have done since Drama and I'd much rather have it in my collection than not.

[Albedo]

I reiterate my love for this album, even more so than Magnification. I'm a sucker for Jon's chant style musings, and Hep Yadda is just wonderful imho. And Nine Voices melts me. It was great to hear Steve do that at his solo show. And Homeworld - it doesn't compete with the great "classics" but it's very enjoyable. I could go on. Great album to boost my spirits.

[yes_angel]

A Great CD! A Great Tour! New Language is my fav, it Rocks!