Is Tony Kaye really on Talk?

[Whitefish]

Just watched the Classic Rock Documentary of Yes which is a must for any and all Yesfans.

Chris was interviewed and asked about Talk. He basically said it took a long time to make and in the end was mainly Trevor Rabin doing (or re-doing!) everything on his computer.

Now I am wondering who really played on it. I sounds like Alan, but is it? I tend to think so. Chris? Maybe. State Of Play does not sound like Chris on bass with that deep 6 string sound which he has never used as far as I know. Maybe he is on some of it.

Tony? Now that is a serious question. Other than the organ part in The Calling, it does not sound like him at all.

That was a very strange Yes album the more that I find out about it, although I like it a lot.

Does anybody know about this?

[kmcpro615]

Just watched the Classic Rock Documentary of Yes which is a must for any and all Yesfans.

Chris was interviewed and asked about Talk. He basically said it took a long time to make and in the end was mainly Trevor Rabin doing (or re-doing!) everything on his computer.

Now I am wondering who really played on it. I sounds like Alan, but is it? I tend to think so. Chris? Maybe. State Of Play does not sound like Chris on bass with that deep 6 string sound which he has never used as far as I know. Maybe he is on some of it.

Tony? Now that is a serious question. Other than the organ part in The Calling, it does not sound like him at all.

That was a very strange Yes album the more that I find out about it, although I like it a lot.

Does anybody know about this?

I agree with everything you say. Your ears are probably not lying to you....especially when you've got such a large sampling of the body of work of all you mentioned to compare it to. I've seen quotes from at least one Yes guy that says "never believe songwriting credits on Yes records" as it's all political. I tend to think this is a variation on that theme.

[illusion]

I believe that Trevor played most, but not all, of the keyboards on Talk. I think he also fiddled with the bass as well.

There are members more knowledgeable than me who might be able to tell you more!

[Soundchaser_413]

The drums are at least ALan White. I have a Trevor solo album called "don't look away" or something like that and Trevor plays pretty much everything on it except the drums. If the Talk record was recorded by Trevor playing all the instruments(except for drums) in his home recording studio that would not surprise me. If that is the case then it's just as much of a con job as Union if not more. People should be credited properly on albums no matter what.

[kmcpro615]

If that is the case then it's just as much of a con job as Union if not more. People should be credited properly on albums no matter what.

Well in rock and roll there's a lot of con jobs that go on for any number of reasons. That's just the way it is......

BTW...did yo know that John McLaughlin played on some early Rolling Stones sessions? Never saw that in the album credits.......

[Olorin]

If that is the case then it's just as much of a con job as Union if not more.

That is a very good point that probably had not occurred to a lot of people, myself included.

[Write a punch line]

Trevor's article on NTFE actually touches on this. For the most part it's Trevor playing for Tony.

[Jackaranda]

whenever you hear a Hammond, it's Tony...I hear him on The Calling, near the end of Real Love and on Endless Dream.

[erik_1099]

Yes, you can be sure that any Hammond is Tony.

[Malcolm Birkett]

Look...debate all you want guys and gals...

Whatever...he is the original the legend...and as such has always been and will always be extremely special to me.

Any arguments about his playing are completely irrelevant to me...I know that may sound nonsensical but I have never been disappointed by anything he has ever done. His playing has never failed to excite and thrill me. He plays exactly the right thing at exactly the right time. I love the guy!

His work with CIRCA: is testimony to that I believe.

One of the joys of Soli's Beard live is Tony's sound and playing during the intro'...remember all those lasers?

And live? There has been some disquiet about Oliver's demeanour on the latest tour...I don't go along with that but...one thing is for sure...no-one could ever complain about TK's live action...maaaaan...he goes for it...FAB-U-LOUS to watch!

Go Tony, go Tony go!!

[neilius]

Look...debate all you want guys and gals...

Whatever...he is the original the legend...and as such has always been and will always be extremely special to me.

Any arguments about his playing are completely irrelevant to me...I know that may sound nonsensical but I have never been disappointed by anything he has ever done. His playing has never failed to excite and thrill me. He plays exactly the right thing at exactly the right time. I love the guy!

His work with CIRCA: is testimony to that I believe.

One of the joys of Soli's Beard live is Tony's sound and playing during the intro'...remember all those lasers?

And live? There has been some disquiet about Oliver's demeanour on the latest tour...I don't go along with that but...one thing is for sure...no-one could ever complain about TK's live action...maaaaan...he goes for it...FAB-U-LOUS to watch!

Go Tony, go Tony go!!


I agree with you Malcolm, but the OP begs the question (at least from me): Why did Rabin play everything (allegedly) on this album?

[CybrKhatru]

Rabin has always (for better or worse) described himself as a pretty "hands-on" guy....

I'm sure that TK plays the Hammond bits on the album, as credited. The rest of it, I don't know.


But Kurt is right...don't always believe credits on albums. Quite frequently they are not necessarily correct...

[kmcpro615]

I can see where Trevor would record parts himself just for expediency and because he can get done what he wants to get done by himself and move on. It's not necessarilly a slight on Tony. That kind of thing comes up all the time when bands are making records. Most of the keyboard work during that era didn't require virtuoso playing.....it was probably a lot more midi and programming intensive than playing intensive. What everybody seems to recognize and love about Tony is his Hammond playing, and it was included as a part of the mix. You didn't need Tony to trigger or otherwise program all those toothpaste digital patches & samples. That doesn't seem to be something he's known for anyway, although I would have no way of knowing what his true capabilities are based on what I saw of him in Yes. In his 2nd tour of duty with Yes, Tony seemed to be there mostly to facilitate whatever Trevor wanted done. If it was Tony's band, I'm sure things would have probably come out differently. It's not a big deal unless your ego can't take it, and I'm sure he enjoyed the paychecks on that second go around.

KMCc:)

www.myspace.com/kurtmichaels1

[xlink_nz]

Yes Kaye is on Talk and all Hammond Organ is him

One should not underestimate the role Kaye had on that album, sure he only played Organ but I beleive he was [uncredited) co-producer and assistant engineer

I suspect he was also involved in arrangements and also keyboard parts that he did not actually play himself, this I beleive was due to whos keyboard rig was available at the time i.e. Rabins rather than his own

Kaye's role on Talk I beleive is more than his Keyboard parts

[maninthemoon]

I don't like Talk.

[SilverShoes]

BTW...did yo know that John McLaughlin played on some early Rolling Stones sessions? Never saw that in the album credits.......

WHAT?! Which ones? And says who?! I mean besides Johnny Mac himself!

But now that you mention it, it's not completely surprising. Jimmy Page played guitar on some of the early Kinks and Who singles (though exactly how much he played on each songs seems to be continiously debated).

Kiss were kinda interesting, because there's lots of songs where either Ace or Paul played bass, and apparently even songs where Gene played some of the guitar, I guess just because they were writing the songs as the albums were being recorded, so it was probably easier just to have whoever wrote the song play the part rather than waste time teaching it to someone else (though, at least in the case of Love Gun, which Paul played bass on, Gene had to learn the bass part anyway because he had to play it onstage). And it is true they did sometimes use studio musicians here and there.

The Beatles also swapped instruments around on some of their records. I remember having a debate not too long ago another forum about who played the guitar solo on Tax Man, George or Paul. Someone said "But it's George's song", to which I replied, "It's Paul, George said so himself in Guitar Player back in 1988".

And there's stuff where either George or John played bass (I believe that's John playing bass on Let It Be itself), or where someone besides Ringo played drums (and I'm not even necessarily talking about Love Me Do, either).

And coming back to The Stones, as I recall, they used a couple different session guitarists around the time that Ron Wood joined the band. I think there's a couple songs on Black And Blue or Some Girls (I forget which one) that Harvey Mandel plays guitar on. And there's stuff on Tattoo You that has Mick Taylor on it (but those were leftovers from when Taylor was actually still in the band).

[erik_1099]

What's that quote about Paul McCartney being the best drummer in the Beatles? :)

WHAT?! Which ones? And says who?! I mean besides Johnny Mac himself!

But now that you mention it, it's not completely surprising. Jimmy Page played guitar on some of the early Kinks and Who singles (though exactly how much he played on each songs seems to be continiously debated).

Kiss were kinda interesting, because there's lots of songs where either Ace or Paul played bass, and apparently even songs where Gene played some of the guitar, I guess just because they were writing the songs as the albums were being recorded, so it was probably easier just to have whoever wrote the song play the part rather than waste time teaching it to someone else (though, at least in the case of Love Gun, which Paul played bass on, Gene had to learn the bass part anyway because he had to play it onstage). And it is true they did sometimes use studio musicians here and there.

The Beatles also swapped instruments around on some of their records. I remember having a debate not too long ago another forum about who played the guitar solo on Tax Man, George or Paul. Someone said "But it's George's song", to which I replied, "It's Paul, George said so himself in Guitar Player back in 1988".

And there's stuff where either George or John played bass (I believe that's John playing bass on Let It Be itself), or where someone besides Ringo played drums (and I'm not even necessarily talking about Love Me Do, either).

And coming back to The Stones, as I recall, they used a couple different session guitarists around the time that Ron Wood joined the band. I think there's a couple songs on Black And Blue or Some Girls (I forget which one) that Harvey Mandel plays guitar on. And there's stuff on Tattoo You that has Mick Taylor on it (but those were leftovers from when Taylor was actually still in the band).

[Jackaranda]

I don't like Talk.

:aaa[1]:

Oh well, to each his own...lots of Yes fans don't like it. I love it, I think it's great. I also love Tony's playing...I was 5 feet from him at a Circa show and the guy was simply on fire...he also covered Wakeman's parts in the Yes segment beautifully. And he's a genuinely nice guy.

I'm a big Tony Kaye fan.

[CybrKhatru]

Yeah, I often feel like I'm one of the few that loves Talk.

Although, admittedly, I've never been crazy about the production (aside from the dynamic range!). I do love the songs, however!

[maninthemoon]

:aaa[1]:

Oh well, to each his own...lots of Yes fans don't like it. I love it, I think it's great. I also love Tony's playing...I was 5 feet from him at a Circa show and the guy was simply on fire...he also covered Wakeman's parts in the Yes segment beautifully. And he's a genuinely nice guy.

I'm a big Tony Kaye fan.

Sorry, I have tried believe me. I like Tony Kaye as well.

[Jackaranda]

Yeah, I often feel like I'm one of the few that loves Talk.

Although, admittedly, I've never been crazy about the production (aside from the dynamic range!). I do love the songs, however!

Yeah...I wish it'd sounded a bit "softer", for lack of a better word. I wish it'd sounded more like 90125. Rabin's production was a bit on the harsh side.

[nitrus]

For me, Talk is the best sounding rock album ever produced, and of my favorite Yes albums, too (along with the likes of Tales and Relayer, go figure).

But back to the topic, Trevor indeed played all of the textural keyboards, piano, etc. The Hammond is pure Tony - and it's pretty audible....well....when we get to hear it from time to time on the record. :)

As far as I know, allegations such as it's all Rabin on the album are very misleading and untrue. The instrumentation was for the most part done by the band as credited. However Trevor, wanting it to sound perfect, often took a segment from a recording, looped it, edited it and generally tinkered with it in many other ways.

The bass on State of Play is absolutely un-Squire and typical Rabin, though, to my ears. ;)

I understand that many people who're more into the good ol' honest-to-God rock'n'roll thing hate this approach.
But perhaps due to me being more of a child of the new age, I love the album both music and sound-wise and think it just sounds perfect.

[crotale2112]

For me, Talk is the best sounding rock album ever produced, and of my favorite Yes albums, too (along with the likes of Tales and Relayer, go figure).
.
Hmmmmm.. I find talk to be very very synthetic. I get no sence of warm tape or tube amps at all. Talk sounds microwaved as tales sounds baked to me. Ya'know what I'm saying.

But i do love the talk album. I wish there was just a little more tony on it.

[Write a punch line]

The Best?


Woah, I like it for what it is, but it's not Abby Road or Dark Side ect ect.

[CybrKhatru]

Although I find the production cold on Talk, there are some amazing sounding parts to it...especially Endless Dream and Where Will You Be.....

[nitrus]

The Best?


Woah, I like it for what it is, but it's not Abby Road or Dark Side ect ect.

Sure, but I meant the best as in "the most perfect", the peak of what you can do technologically. Since then, music production has progressed more into virtualization and things like that, but the actual possibilities of what can be done are the same since the mid-90s and Trevor took advantage of all of them like no one ever had AND has.

But as I said, I completely understand many of you think of "perfect" as a minus, as too cold.

To me, Talk doesn't sound cold or sterile at all. I would call it lively of all things...:)

[kirk]

Although I find the production cold on Talk, there are some amazing sounding parts to it...especially Endless Dream and Where Will You Be.....
Agreed, the little lightbulb comes on.

I won't say Talk is "early computer" recording, but
not that many producers were warming sounds with tube
compressors, or the now widely available warming software
like T-Racks, Ozone, myriad others in those days.

That said, It's still my favorite of the Rabin era.

K

[Orbert]

Hmmmmm.. I find talk to be very very synthetic. I get no sence of warm tape or tube amps at all. Talk sounds microwaved as tales sounds baked to me. Ya'know what I'm saying.

But i do love the talk album. I wish there was just a little more tony on it.

I have tried to pinpoint exactly what it is that bothers me about Talk, and I think this discussion has finally nailed it for me. It sounds "too good". The original performances may have been played by actual humans, but if you take them and do a bunch of cutting and pasting and tweaking and looping in the computer, getting everything "perfect", then I guess it sounds perfect all right, but that's not necessarily better.

I like most of the songs, the arrangements are fine, and the production is great. "Synthetic" is not a word I would have chosen, but it fits here perfectly. The human element has been all but removed. When every single note, every single beat, is perfect, it's boring. I want to hear the tiny little rhythmic imperfections. I want to hear the slight flub on that one note at that one part where someone's fingers didn't quite come down in the right spot. That's what makes it "real" for me, and I connect with that (probably because my own performances are never perfect).

[The Whale]

Talk is amazing and I think its clean almost stearil production is done with purpose and I love it.

[The Whale]

I like most of the songs, the arrangements are fine, and the production is great. "Synthetic" is not a word I would have chosen, but it fits here perfectly. The human element has been all but removed. When every single note, every single beat, is perfect, it's boring. I want to hear the tiny little rhythmic imperfections. I want to hear the slight flub on that one note at that one part where someone's fingers didn't quite come down in the right spot. That's what makes it "real" for me, and I connect with that (probably because my own performances are never perfect).

Could you imagin the begining of AYAI with out the vary human opening?.. I know I couldn't.

[Roadkill]

Could you imagin the begining of AYAI with out the vary human opening?.. I know I couldn't.

Oh, indeed! That opening makes the whole thing feel so real and alive. I love being witness to those moments (likewise, the talking at the end of in My Time Of Dying by Led Zeppelin, or the sound of Mike's fingers sliding up and down the fret on his twelve string on Genesis's Cinema Show, or the sound of Miles talking to Teo and his musicians in numerous recordings during and prior to his fusion phase).

Talk is far from perfect if real music played by real people in-the-moment is what you're after.

Like Peter Gabriel's many-layered tunes that take years for him to produce, it's a wonder that a chord is ever struck with the listener. That it is (with Talk it was Where Will You Be - and I thank Jon for that; with Gabriel's UP it was the beautiful Sky Blue - more to do with The Blind Boys Of Alabama than old Gabble Ratchet) always seems to be in spite of the product concerned.

[kmcpro615]

WHAT?! Which ones? And says who?! I mean besides Johnny Mac himself!

In the interview I read, he said it was some of the "Between The Buttons" sessions. In my admittedly foggy recollections of Stones liner notes, I don't believe that they went out of their way to credit any outside musicians on those earlier recordings. Not sure if that's changed or not, since I don't think I've ever actually purchased a Rolling Stones lp or cd. The only money of mine that they ever got directly was the ridiculou$ amount I paid for 2 tix to a show a few tours back. My wife and I figured we needed to see them before their time was up. At the rate they are going, they very well may outlast me.....

KMCc:)

www.myspace.com/kurtmichaels1

[Sergey Lenkov]

Yes Kaye is on Talk and all Hammond Organ is him

One should not underestimate the role Kaye had on that album, sure he only played Organ but I beleive he was [uncredited) co-producer and assistant engineer

I suspect he was also involved in arrangements and also keyboard parts that he did not actually play himself, this I beleive was due to whos keyboard rig was available at the time i.e. Rabins rather than his own

Kaye's role on Talk I beleive is more than his Keyboard parts

I remember Trevor and Tony visited MIDEM exhibition in Moscow around that time (I believe in 1995) and they were showed on TV and they looked like co-workers, talked about their future plans, so I suppose that Tony could be involved in Talk production deeply.

[luna65]

I don't know that I'd use the word cold. There's a definite sense of meticulous construction and a painful kind of clarity, I suppose...but to me, cold is what Bob Ezrin did in the late 80s (About Face, A Momentary Lapse of Reason, Can't Look Away), but that brightness I usually associate with something being cold is more like what I hear on something like "Our Song," not on Talk.

But the construction works for me...even if everything is cut-and-paste'd (which is an old practice BTW - they were doing it with tape before Trevor decided to be a trailblazer in the digital realm) to death, I think the dynamics and textures and sense of grandeur and the use of headspace is all amazing.

[MikeYESfan]

Although I find the production cold on Talk, there are some amazing sounding parts to it...especially Endless Dream and Where Will You Be.....

Endless Dream..yea that's the Ticket!

[90125yes]

Tony is surley on talk

i think Rabin's production on it is not fully understood - an apple mac has something to do with it

if YES had recorded it live in the studio the " traditional sound " would have been more evident

[luna65]

i think Rabin's production on it is not fully understood - an apple mac has something to do with it

if YES had recorded it live in the studio the " traditional sound " would have been more evident

:dog:

Uh...speaking of not fully understanding. The music itself was actually performed in the traditional way, as in parts had to be played, but it's the end result of recording to hard disk, with MOTU Performer, which resulted in the type of sound Talk possesses.

[kmcpro615]

Once upon a time, when you recorded on analog tape, you had a lot more limitations as to what you could do to fix or otherwise modify an individual track. In the digital age, it became exponentially easier to "fix" something that didn't sound quite the way you wanted it to.

Talk was amongst the first cds that was recorded fully digital on a hard drive and all of the sudden you had the ability to really dig in and fiddle about....for instance: to get the drums and bass to line up PERFECTLY with the click...or to fix an out of tune note or vocal passage...to say nothing of the infinite digital editing, eq, compression, FX opportunities. Trevor broke a lot of ground in that recording.

15 years later, virtually every commercial release you hear nowadays has had the voices auto tuned, the drums quantized etc etc etc....to the point where almost anyone could make a good sounding record if they halfway knew what they were doing. The public at large is pretty much used to and expecting to hear "perfect" sounding records and think nothing of it. When these acts go out and play, there's no frickin way in the world they can actually perform this stuff that way in real time. You know that poppy acts like MJ, Madonna and etc have been using backing tracks for both instrumental and vocal aspects of their performances....but it's not limited to them. Even guys like Peter Gabriel (who layer like crazy on records) are doing it. If you were gonna banish everyone who "cheats" with technology to achieve a level of perfection not attainable through a real time performance, you would be shocked as to how few choices you would have remaining to listen to.

KMCc:)

www.myspace.com/kurtmichaels1

[Apollo 77]

Tony Kaye is great, but Yes fan and Talk fan, just don't belong in the same sentance. The album is utter nonsense.

I actually quite like most of 'Talk'. The 'Open your Eyes' album makes Talk sound like a magnificent symphony. OYE is the worst YES album ............... ever! I've never fathomed out how such good musicians could create (and release) something so awful!

[TOBYSGRAPHICGOKART]

I actually quite like most of 'Talk'. The 'Open your Eyes' album makes Talk sound like a magnificent symphony. OYE is the worst YES album ............... ever! I've never fathomed out how such good musicians could create (and release) something so awful!

Talk is tripe,but you are absolutely correct about OYE. That's not just a bad Yes album,it's one of the worst albums by anyone ever.

[Roadkill]

All this talk of Talk gave me an inclination to listen to it in the car tonight...and I can't now find the darned thing. Cosmic forces at work perhaps?

[CybrKhatru]

All this talk of Talk gave me an inclination to listen to it in the car tonight...and I can't now find the darned thing. Cosmic forces at work perhaps?

That's happened to me before too....many a time!


Maybe I'll play Talk this afternoon at work...

[DramaRama]

I liked TALK, it was too bad the tour went so badly. I saw them in an outdoor arena that wasn't even 1/4 full. Sad day in YEShistory!

[The Whale]

I've said it before and I'll say it again for all the nay sayers out there. Relayer and Close to the Edge were vary short albums and it worked because they were 40 min. albums. If you took Endless Dream, Where will you be, I am Waiting and maybe State of Play you would have killer two sided album.

Side one: Endless Dream
Side two: Were Will You Be, State of Play, I Am Waiting

That would have been an Epic LP.

[Roadkill]

That's happened to me before too....many a time!


Maybe I'll play Talk this afternoon at work...

It's bloomin' frustrating! Production issues aside, I do feel it was the best album that line-up did and, with more of an emphasis on the musicality of the band, and the spiritual nature to some of the lyrics, it was quite the return to form. "For all Yes fans" indeed.

[SilverShoes]

Well, I'm having trouble responding to Kurt's post about Johnny Mac playing on the Stones records (I seem to always have trouble with posting on this site, but anyway...).

It's not entirely impossible that there are studio musicians on some of those records who went uncredited, as that happened with, as I said, a LOT of bands, not just The Stones.

As far McLaughlin claiming he played on a Stones record, I'm not sure I can imagine him being able to fit the vibe of the Stones. And just because he SAYS he played on a given record doesn't mean anything. Jimmy Page and Dave Davies have spent the last 45 years arguing over who's playing on You Really Got Me. ONE of them is lying (or at least bending the truth).

Likewise, Peter Frampton claims there's only a few overdubs on Frampton Comes Alive, despite rumors to the contrary. Scott Gorham also says the only overdub on Thin Lizzy's Live And Dangerous are the back up vocals on Boys Are Back In Town, but Tony Visconti also claims that virtually everything but the drums on the album was overdub.

So just because somebody says "Oh, I played on that record" that doesn't mean anything.

BUT, you do have me curious now. I wonder if there's any means of corroborating McLaughlin's comment.

For what it's worth, Between The Buttons I never heard in it's entirety until just recently, and it's quickly become one of my favorite Stones albums. I can't believe I've gone this long without knowing that album (or the other Brian Jones era albums) apart from what appears on the Hot Rocks comp.

[SilverShoes]

Oh and on the topic of Talk, I do agree the production work on that is terrible. The drums and guitar sounds in particular are very unimpressive. The drums sound like sampled drums (though maybe Rabin just over processed them) and the guitars sound like they were recorded through a primitive amp "emulator", perhaps a Rockman or something similar.

The technology of getting a good guitar tone without playing through a mic'd up amp wasn't quite there at that time. Well, you could get good clean tones, particularly for funk style rhythm guitar parts, but anything requiring any distortion NEEDED to involve tube amps, a good 12" speaker, and at least one microphone. That's why Jerry Garcia's guitar tone stunk during the last few years of The Grateful Dead's touring history: he was playing through a speaker emulator (well, he was completely blitzed, so his playing generally stunk too, but anyway).

Come to think of it, even the clean guitar tones on that album don't sound right. Listen to the beginning of The Calling, I dunno, it just sounds really sterile, which is basically the problem with the whole album.

I'd love to hear what that album might sound like if it had been recorded in a proper studio, using real acoustic drums, real tube guitar amps, and more Hammond organ, piano and analog synth and less digital keyboards. And needless to say, lots of actual microphones would help too.

[kmcpro615]

So just because somebody says "Oh, I played on that record" that doesn't mean anything.

BUT, you do have me curious now. I wonder if there's any means of corroborating McLaughlin's comment.


In my perception McLaughlin isn't known for a lot of showbiz BS hyperbole. If he says it's so I believe him. Everything I've heard suggests that over the years the Stones have used a bunch of session guys along the way. I don't think he was suggesting that he had a major part in anything....just a session or two. As to lining up with that style, I think a good musician is there do what the producer tells him and deliver. Most good musicians can come from a variety of styles. I can tell you for a fact that McLaughlin has a shyteload of blues and funk influences in his bag of tricks. I've seen and heard him do things that you would definitely not associate with him.

[kirk]

Oh and on the topic of Talk, I do agree the production work on that is terrible. The drums and guitar sounds in particular are very unimpressive. The drums sound like sampled drums (though maybe Rabin just over processed them) and the guitars sound like they were recorded through a primitive amp "emulator", perhaps a Rockman or something similar.

The technology of getting a good guitar tone without playing through a mic'd up amp wasn't quite there at that time. Well, you could get good clean tones, particularly for funk style rhythm guitar parts, but anything requiring any distortion NEEDED to involve tube amps, a good 12" speaker, and at least one microphone. That's why Jerry Garcia's guitar tone stunk during the last few years of The Grateful Dead's touring history: he was playing through a speaker emulator (well, he was completely blitzed, so his playing generally stunk too, but anyway).

Come to think of it, even the clean guitar tones on that album don't sound right. Listen to the beginning of The Calling, I dunno, it just sounds really sterile, which is basically the problem with the whole album.

I'd love to hear what that album might sound like if it had been recorded in a proper studio, using real acoustic drums, real tube guitar amps, and more Hammond organ, piano and analog synth and less digital keyboards. And needless to say, lots of actual microphones would help too.

It seems many of these debates comes down to
musicians vs. the casual listener.

Let's try asking, " any musicians here not feel
Talk's production sounds cold ? "

Talk also lacks that "creamy" midrange that Wakeman's
keys covered, that we associate with Yes albums.
I wonder if that doesn't have something
to with the reason Magnification did so poorly.

K

[luna65]

I'm fairly certain that:
-the Jacaranda Room could hold a drum kit, maybe the drums are overprocessed in some cases, but there are actual drums on the record.
-As Chris and Trevor had been using Ampeg amps since at least 1991 (if not a few years prior), unless they were DI'ing the guitars straight into the board, real tube amps were involved.

One consideration which may not always be apparent is Trevor was and is a total gear fetishist as well as a seasoned engineer in his own right, so even if the facility wasn't big, it was well-equipped and so I don't believe one could attribute an opinion of sterility to the gear. Now if the opinion that the album sounds sterile or cold is because of the recording technology involved, I can understand that...MOTU was developing something completely new at the time and it could have contributed to the overall aesthetic which some apparently perceive when hearing the album.

Also, if you're not listening to it in FLAC or the Japanese version of the CD, then you're not really hearing the full clarity of the recording, IMO.

[SilverShoes]

I'm fairly certain that:
-the Jacaranda Room could hold a drum kit, maybe the drums are overprocessed in some cases, but there are actual drums on the record.


Just because the Jacaranda Room can hold a drumkit doesn't mean they weren't using triggered samples. A lot of producers like to use sampled drums because:

a. they don't have to spend time "getting" a drum sound.

and

b. they get a more "consistent" drum sound, because everytime you're hearing say the snare drum, you're hearing the exact same sound.

and

c. They don't have to worry about leakage.

The thing is, all those things run counter to what I feel constitutes a good drum sound. Yeah, when you put mics on acoustic drums, you have to "work" at getting a drum sound, but you'll always get a better sound than you get with samples. A poorly mic'd drumkit will sound better than sampled drums every single time.

There's lots of examples of people using an acoustic drumkit because there's no such thing as electronic drums that behaves the way acoustic drums do when you hit them. But instead of micing the acoustic drums, the fit them triggers that activate samples everytime a given drum is hit.




-As Chris and Trevor had been using Ampeg amps since at least 1991 (if not a few years prior), unless they were DI'ing the guitars straight into the board, real tube amps were involved.

I don't follow your logic. How do you they used amps at all when making the album? It sure doesn't sound like it on the finished product!


One consideration which may not always be apparent is Trevor was and is a total gear fetishist as well as a seasoned engineer in his own right, so even if the facility wasn't big, it was well-equipped and so I don't believe one could attribute an opinion of sterility to the gear. Now if the opinion that the album sounds sterile or cold is because of the recording technology involved, I can understand that...MOTU was developing something completely new at the time and it could have contributed to the overall asethetic which some apparently perceive when hearing the album. .

That could be an issue too. At any rate, I think the record sounds terrible, which is a shame because some of the material is actually great. And if a record sounds bad, you know whose fault that is? The producer's! So one way or another, I think Trevor screwed up.

[SilverShoes]

In my perception McLaughlin isn't known for a lot of showbiz BS hyperbole. If he says it's so I believe him. Everything I've heard suggests that over the years the Stones have used a bunch of session guys along the way. I don't think he was suggesting that he had a major part in anything....just a session or two. As to lining up with that style, I think a good musician is there do what the producer tells him and deliver. Most good musicians can come from a variety of styles. I can tell you for a fact that McLaughlin has a shyteload of blues and funk influences in his bag of tricks. I've seen and heard him do things that you would definitely not associate with him.

Well, you do make a good point that Johnny Mac doesn't seem to be the kind of person to do the whole hyperbole thing. But I still find it unlikely that he would have played on a Stones session. He's one of those players who strike me like they couldn't play sloppy to save their lives. Then again, now that I think about it, Between The Buttons doesn't have much of that "sloppy" kind of vibe anyway.

Actually, I can see the being similar to the story Bob Kulick once told of being asked to ghost for Ace on a Kiss session, and when he took a break from recording, he went to the studio lounge and found Ace sprawled out on the couch, wasted.

I'd still like to see some corroboration from someone else, though.

[luna65]

Just because the Jacaranda Room can hold a drumkit doesn't mean they weren't using triggered samples. A lot of producers like to use sampled drums because:

a. they don't have to spend time "getting" a drum sound.

and

b. they get a more "consistent" drum sound, because everytime you're hearing say the snare drum, you're hearing the exact same sound.

and

c. They don't have to worry about leakage.

The thing is, all those things run counter to what I feel constitutes a good drum sound. Yeah, when you put mics on acoustic drums, you have to "work" at getting a drum sound, but you'll always get a better sound than you get with samples. A poorly mic'd drumkit will sound better than sampled drums every single time.

There's lots of examples of people using an acoustic drumkit because there's no such thing as electronic drums that behaves the way acoustic drums do when you hit them. But instead of micing the acoustic drums, the fit them triggers that activate samples everytime a given drum is hit.

I get your point about the drums, I do know how the technology works, but either way it's supposition. I can appreciate that there might have been some c&p and compression at work, but my ears tell me there are acoustic drums on Talk; though I will concede perhaps not on every track.


I don't follow your logic. How do you they used amps at all when making the album? It sure doesn't sound like it on the finished product!
My point is, again, it's supposition either way...neither of us possesses the specific knowledge: you think they didn't, I think that perhaps they did.

That could be an issue too. At any rate, I think the record sounds terrible, which is a shame because some of the material is actually great. And if a record sounds bad, you know whose fault that is? The producer's! So one way or another, I think Trevor screwed up.
And that's your opinion, of course.

[SilverShoes]

Talk also lacks that "creamy" midrange that Wakeman's
keys covered, that we associate with Yes albums.
I wonder if that doesn't have something
to with the reason Magnification did so poorly.

K

Well, it's not a matter of who played keyboards, it's a matter of who produced, engineered and mixed the thing, I think.

[kmcpro615]

Well, this is like a comment Henry Kaiser once made about Steve Morse. He said that Steve Morse couldn't play sloppily if his life depended on it. I get the same feeling from Johnny Mac. And I would have to buy the idea of Johnny Mac playing with sloppy technique to be able to buy him ghosting on a Stones record.

Steve Morse would probably do most anything you wanted to if you paid him what he wanted to get paid. The comment by Henry Kaiser is opinion and not reality based. At the time the alleged sessions occured was in that time frame when McLaughlin just freelancing around London, trying to make his way, prior to his getting a record deal. Guys that are young and hungry do all kinds of things to pay the bills and don't necessarilly get paid to put their stamp on something.

As I said, I'd love to hear some corroboration from someone else who was third about whether or not he played on The Stones records.

I'll ask Mick next time I see him.....

You do kind of have a point about McLaughlin not really doing the "star" thing. But Dave Davies doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would do the star thing either, yet he's argued for decades that Page didn't play on any of "his" tracks.

That could be a pride issue and something that he doesn't want to cop to. We've already established that songwriting and liner note credits are not gospel. In rock and roll and pop there seems to be a greater propensity for smoke and mirrors PR and BS and why would Dave Davies be immune from that? It's his frickin legacy being screwed with, and if someone was paid to do it, they were also propbably paid to shut up about it.

KMCc:)

www.myspace.com/kurtmichaels1

[somissound]

Well, it's not a matter of who played keyboards, it's a matter of who produced, engineered and mixed the thing, I think.

And...... most importantly....... who marketed, promoted, and did PR on it ! :thinking:

The Calling, I am Waiting, REAL Love, Endless Dream (organ parts).... That is Mr. Kaye for sure. Some sweet B3 imo :keyboard:

[SilverShoes]

And...... most importantly....... who marketed, promoted, and did PR on it ! :thinking:


Well, those are the reasons (or some of the reasons, anyway) why the album did so poorly in terms of sales, along with the long delay between albums, and the fact that a lot of fans had abandoned the group after Big Generator, ABWH and Union debacles.

[CybrKhatru]

Re: the drum sound on Talk

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those are Alan's drums, sampled. Listen to the consistency of the snare drum.

[90125yes]

Uh...speaking of not fully understanding. The music itself was actually performed in the traditional way, as in parts had to be played, but it's the end result of recording to hard disk, with MOTU Performer, which resulted in the type of sound Talk possesses.

---

then why do we question : is kaye on it , is squire on it ??

[Roadkill]

It seems many of these debates comes down to
musicians vs. the casual listener.

Let's try asking, " any musicians here not feel
Talk's production sounds cold ? "

K

I'm not sure it matters much. As a non-musician, I remember handing back something by Dream Theatre to the musician friend who'd lent it me and telling him I thought the production and playing were just too cold for me. He didn't even understand what I was talking about.

Ditto Talk, which I bought long before I started gigging.

[luna65]

---
then why do we question : is kaye on it , is squire on it ??

Okay first of all, why do people question anything? That's not a germane response to my observation.

However, it is a valid question, all things considered. Tony did play Hammond on the album, but that's the extent of his musicianship. Probably his greatest contribution was being a cheerleader for the process when everyone else lost their patience with Trevor's plan. What Chris played on might be more of a mystery (for anyone who wasn't there). It seems fairly obvious he played on "Real Love," for example, because the song originated with him.

[Write a punch line]

I'm not sure it matters much. As a non-musician, I remember handing back something by Dream Theatre to the musician friend who'd lent it me and telling him I thought the production and playing were just too cold for me. He didn't even understand what I was talking about.

Ditto Talk, which I bought long before I started gigging.


I don't know what your Talking about. Dream Theater's best stuff is pretty damn great. Talk isn't even in the same ballpark as DT's stuff from that era.

[podo]

I thought Talk was a complete crap.

I dont get it at all. There is one part where its just guitar playing, .. which I call the "Trevor Rabin solo album part"

The whole thing p[retty much sounds like a rabin solo album, and not a very good one.

[podo]

I'm not sure it matters much. As a non-musician, I remember handing back something by Dream Theatre to the musician friend who'd lent it me and telling him I thought the production and playing were just too cold for me. He didn't even understand what I was talking about.

Ditto Talk, which I bought long before I started gigging.

Agreed.

I dont like DT at all.

I watched the DVD of Dreams of a memory..(if thats what its called) and had teh commentary turned on.. "here is te theme again,, but the myxylodian version, played at double time, moving into the second part played backwards in a different key"

Zappa had it right.. just shut up and play

[Buglunch]

The obvious other question is: how did they do a convincing Talk tour? I missed it so others will have to judge.
Was there another keys player unseen like the 90125 tour?
Surely a lot of fans would have noticed Tony wasn't providing
enough non-Hammond parts if he was so absent from the recording.

[SilverShoes]

Re: the drum sound on Talk

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those are Alan's drums, sampled. Listen to the consistency of the snare drum.

Yeah, that's exactly what it sounds like to my ears, too: digital drums. Sampled musical instruments of any stripe are the bane of any serious music listener. There's certainly no reason why a band of Yes' stature should be using sampled drums. Hey guys! A certain amount of leakage and the "inconsistent" drum sounds are part of the SOUND of live music!

[Roadkill]

I don't know what your Talking about. Dream Theater's best stuff is pretty damn great. Talk isn't even in the same ballpark as DT's stuff from that era.

Sorry, posting my own opinions again - what on earth was I thinking?!

[Roadkill]

Agreed.

I dont like DT at all.

I watched the DVD of Dreams of a memory..(if thats what its called) and had teh commentary turned on.. "here is te theme again,, but the myxylodian version, played at double time, moving into the second part played backwards in a different key"

Zappa had it right.. just shut up and play

Well, there's the difference right there, between those who study music and those who just feel it and play what they feel. Earlier, it was mentioned that Trevor is an engineer and there's another problem - do great engineers make great artists? No, they don't. It all looks very shiny, everything in its place and all, but where are all the surprises?

I finally found my copy of Talk over the weekend and gave it a listen. The moment he started plucking those strings at the start of Calling I felt like turning it off. It just sounds too bright and clinical. And the songs are all music-by-numbers affairs. I find myself looking out for the sound of Jon's voice, just for reassurance.

It probably is the best album that Trevor did with the band, though; I'm sure it achieves everything Trevor was aiming for and, although I have no boots from the tour, it does seem to be well recieved by a lot of people here.

[crotale2112]

:worm: " I Love To Play With My Organ "

tony kaye / talk album release party



The audio from this party is very funny. Squire had quite the buzz on that night. I love the way trevor says "ummm.. chris, your spilling your drink".

[RUSHasiaYESfan]

I absolutely LOVE Talk. Saw the tour in New Haven Ct and the quad sound was cool. I feel the album has some very strong songs on it.

I am also a big Tony Kaye guy, he brings the passion on stage!

I first started loving Yes after the 90125 album and tour. I've learned to also love the Classic Yes lineup and music. It's all good, any Yes is cool with me!! Don't shoot me, but I still love the 90125 version of Yes the most.

[crotale2112]

It's all good, any Yes is cool with me!! Don't shoot me, but I still love the 90125 version of Yes the most.
Most people here would shoot high or aim low. I myself would rather sit for hours in the crimson sand than hurt anyone here.

[rphheather]

Sorry, posting my own opinions again - what on earth was I thinking?!


I remember when I was in college several people telling me if I liked Yes I would love dream theater. I listened to some, forcing myself thinking I was supposed to like this stuff. I just didn't/don't.

[yestbay]

I remember reading a magazine interview with Trevor Rabin some years back (might have been Keyboard Mag) where he talked about Talk. A few things I recall:

Trevor said that he played all of the non-organ keys parts, but Tony played all or nearly all of the Hammond. Tony was also around duriing production and consulted with Rabin during the recording and such. I think Rabin commented that Tony probably deserved a credit for "assistant producer" or something for his help.

Alan White's drums were recorded in a studio and then added to the digital mix by Rabin. I believe that you will find a credit on the liner notes that says something like "additional recording at A&M studios"; that is where the drums were recorded. Doesn't mean that the drum parts weren't tweaked when they were added to the mix, but at least they were "real" drums.

Rabin also played some bass parts where necessary (some didn't come out well, Chris wasn't available, etc.), but I don't remember if he said which parts those might have been.

If I still have the magazine and can find it (don't get your hopes up), I will try to confirm the above and provide more details.

Dave Westbay

[luna65]

Well, there's the difference right there, between those who study music and those who just feel it and play what they feel. Earlier, it was mentioned that Trevor is an engineer and there's another problem - do great engineers make great artists? No, they don't. It all looks very shiny, everything in its place and all, but where are all the surprises?


You're discounting the fact that Trevor is a trained/studied musician first and foremost. He didn't start out as an engineer - he learned how to be an engineer during his nascent years as a session musician so that he could know how to get the exact sound he wanted rather than to be, in his words, "at the mercy" of whomever was working the session.

However, would you say that Alan Parsons, for example, is not a great artist?

[kirk]

I remember when I was in college several people telling me if I liked Yes I would love dream theater. I listened to some, forcing myself thinking I was supposed to like this stuff. I just didn't/don't.


I've TRIED to like DT, but after 2-3 tunes, my eyes
roll back in my head.

The bands I like know how to shift gears.

K

[Roadkill]

You're discounting the fact that Trevor is a trained/studied musician first and foremost. He didn't start out as an engineer - he learned how to be an engineer during his nascent years as a session musician so that he could know how to get the exact sound he wanted rather than to be, in his words, "at the mercy" of whomever was working the session.

However, would you say that Alan Parsons, for example, is not a great artist?

Sorry, I'm not discounting anything. I know he's a "studied" musician and that's where the problem lies for me. I'm working with a guitarist at the moment, excellent musician, plays all the right notes in the right places. That's the problem: all the right notes in all the right places. Where, as I say, is the surprise?

And I wouldn't know the first thing about Alan Parsons. I don't believe I've heard any of his music. And, with respect, I'm not going to start listening to him now just to prove or disprove a point.

[Roadkill]

I remember when I was in college several people telling me if I liked Yes I would love dream theater. I listened to some, forcing myself thinking I was supposed to like this stuff. I just didn't/don't.

When I first got into Genesis, I was told that I'd really enjoy Yes. Happily, I followed the advice and now I love them to pieces. Not so with Rush, or Dream Theatre, both of whom were recommended to me based on their music being "prog". I always feel I should go back to Rush, though, in the belief that maybe one day I'll get what all the fuss is about.

[Earl Grey]

Tony actually isn't a big fan of 'synth' sounds. He told me that back in his 'Badger' days, he literally pushed his mellotron and mini-moog off of the stage in frustration. "Not my favorite sound in the world."

Although, since the advent of the Roland VK8 Split-Hammond, Tony's been pretty happy with the electronics out there.

I did do a pretty extensive interview with Tony (You can find it in the Tony Kaye area of the site! ...I'm too lazy to hunt it down. HAHA!): He didn't talk about 'TALK' very much.

He likes the album, but made it clear that his favorite recording experience with YES was on 'Big Generator' (Surprisingly, not The YES Album).

Trevor is very 'hands-on' as to production, and I'm guessing that a lot of the synths were Trevor.

Tony would have insisted on playing all of the organ parts though. That is a certainty.

eegee:yesbird:

[Earl Grey]

OK, I got over my 'lazys' and found the interview:

http://www.yesfans.com/showthread.php?t=49392

I'm supposed to be doing a second sit-down with Tony soon, so I'll ask him more about the recording process of TALK next time!

Earl:yesbird:

[luna65]

Sorry, I'm not discounting anything. I know he's a "studied" musician and that's where the problem lies for me. I'm working with a guitarist at the moment, excellent musician, plays all the right notes in the right places. That's the problem: all the right notes in all the right places. Where, as I say, is the surprise?

And I wouldn't know the first thing about Alan Parsons. I don't believe I've heard any of his music. And, with respect, I'm not going to start listening to him now just to prove or disprove a point.

When you make a statement like:
...do great engineers make great artists? No, they don't.
without referencing the breadth of the accomplishments of the person in question then that's why I say you are discounting something. I find that to be a rather reductionist statement, even without the benefit of whether or not you're going to truly attempt to have an informed opinion. Many great engineers started out as musicians and chose to remain on the other side of the glass, but that doesn't mean their artistry is absent, it's just utilized in a different fashion.

Now if you said something like, "I find Trevor to be too technical," then I can understand the sentiment, although I think it's a bit ironic, considering he's entirely self-taught on guitar.

[kmcpro615]

When you make a statement like:

without referencing the breadth of the accomplishments of the person in question then that's why I say you are discounting something. I find that to be a rather reductionist statement, even without the benefit of whether or not you're going to truly attempt to have an informed opinion. Many great engineers started out as musicians and chose to remain the other side of the glass, but that doesn't mean their artistry is absent, it's just utilized in a different fashion.

Now if you said something like, "I find Trevor to be too technical," then I can understand the sentiment, although I think it's a bit ironic, considering he's entirely self-taught on guitar.

A great record usually needs a great engineer. An artist often is too close to his music to be objective. Sometimes economics dictate the need for an artist to be his own engineer, but I personally don't feel it's preferable. Aside from the technical know-how that a good engineer offers, having a second set of ears that you trust is a HUGE asset. I'm working on my 3rd cd, and I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate having that second set of ears to work with.

KMCc:)

www.myspace.com/kurtmichaels1

[YESMAN90125]

I apologize if this has been covered already .
but I do remember Jon saying several times that it was the first "Yes" album that Trevor had played on that the two of them collaborrated on
he also mentioned that Tony was wanting to leave but was interested in touring one last time Tony is only credited with "Hamond Organ" so I think the organ parts are him and the rest is Trevor. I also seem to remember Alan saying that chris was not particularly interested in this project and Jon interjected that he was busy blow drying his hair.
Jon also mentions that he only Wrote Hearts and Holy Lamb on 90125 and BG
Trevor states that he tried to push Jon in collaborations during the recording of BG but Jon didnt want to be pushed . appearantly by the time they got to Talk he was more open to Trevors' idears.

[Earl Grey]

I apologize if this has been covered already .
but I do remember Jon saying several times that it was the first "Yes" album that Trevor had played on that the two of them collaborrated on
he also mentioned that Tony was wanting to leave but was interested in touring one last time Tony is only credited with "Hamond Organ" so I think the organ parts are him and the rest is Trevor. I also seem to remember Alan saying that chris was not particularly interested in this project and Jon interjected that he was busy blow drying his hair.
Jon also mentions that he only Wrote Hearts and Holy Lamb on 90125 and BG
Trevor states that he tried to push Jon in collaborations during the recording of BG but Jon didnt want to be pushed . appearantly by the time they got to Talk he was more open to Trevors' idears.

That sounds pretty accurate.

One has to remember that 90125 wasn't originally a YES album, but a 'Cinema' album. Jon came into the project after most of the groundwork had already been laid for the project.

Jon's spirit is certainly evident in everything, and his voice just sails on all three Yes West albums. But I think everyone involved felt that Rabin was at the helm, and calling most of the shots: Especially on TALK.

URLie:yesbird:

[luna65]

A great record usually needs a great engineer.
I would say always, but I'm of the opinion that engineers are the unsung heroes of the recording process.

[Jackaranda]

Tony Kaye is great, but Yes fan and Talk fan, just don't belong in the same sentance. The album is utter nonsense.

USA Today named it the 2nd worst album of 1994. Bill Clinton's brother had the # 1.

[90125yes]

I absolutely LOVE Talk. Saw the tour in New Haven Ct and the quad sound was cool. I feel the album has some very strong songs on it.

I am also a big Tony Kaye guy, he brings the passion on stage!

I first started loving Yes after the 90125 album and tour. I've learned to also love the Classic Yes lineup and music. It's all good, any Yes is cool with me!! Don't shoot me, but I still love the 90125 version of Yes the most.

----

thats ok and fine and i like all versions of YES too

if you listen to Circa HQ , Tony Kaye Rocks

[YESMAN90125]

That sounds pretty accurate.

One has to remember that 90125 wasn't originally a YES album, but a 'Cinema' album. Jon came into the project after most of the groundwork had already been laid for the project.

Jon's spirit is certainly evident in everything, and his voice just sails on all three Yes West albums. But I think everyone involved felt that Rabin was at the helm, and calling most of the shots: Especially on TALK.

URLie:yesbird:
LOL 90125 well before that is was an XYZ album etc Though I guess some of that turned up on K2A as well

[Roadkill]

When you make a statement like:

without referencing the breadth of the accomplishments of the person in question then that's why I say you are discounting something. I find that to be a rather reductionist statement, even without the benefit of whether or not you're going to truly attempt to have an informed opinion. Many great engineers started out as musicians and chose to remain the other side of the glass, but that doesn't mean their artistry is absent, it's just utilized in a different fashion.

Now if you said something like, "I find Trevor to be too technical," then I can understand the sentiment, although I think it's a bit ironic, considering he's entirely self-taught on guitar.

Aye. I think you're far too much of a fanboy to be able to engage in a subjective discussion about this, Trevor's "magnum opus", so I'll leave you be.

Here's your handbag, back. You dropped it when you reached for the tissues, son.

[satyam]

Look...debate all you want guys and gals...

Whatever...he is the original the legend...and as such has always been and will always be extremely special to me.

Any arguments about his playing are completely irrelevant to me...I know that may sound nonsensical but I have never been disappointed by anything he has ever done. His playing has never failed to excite and thrill me. He plays exactly the right thing at exactly the right time. I love the guy!

His work with CIRCA: is testimony to that I believe.

One of the joys of Soli's Beard live is Tony's sound and playing during the intro'...remember all those lasers?

And live? There has been some disquiet about Oliver's demeanour on the latest tour...I don't go along with that but...one thing is for sure...no-one could ever complain about TK's live action...maaaaan...he goes for it...FAB-U-LOUS to watch!

Go Tony, go Tony go!!

Malcolm

I fully agree with you and I am really tired of folks in YF criticising Tony's ability. Please listen to the word is live.

Tony Kaye @#$% Rocks!!!!!!!!!!!

[90125yes]

Malcolm

I fully agree with you and I am really tired of folks in YF criticising Tony's ability. Please listen to the word is live.

Tony Kaye @#$% Rocks!!!!!!!!!!!


----:appl[1]: :appl[1]: :appl[1]: :appl[1]: :appl[1]:


AGREED

TONY KAYE ROCKS

[Roadkill]

He's not a flamboyant player, and I guess Yes are known for flamboyant players. I don't know enough about what he's done outside the band to give an informed comment on Kaye as a player, but certainly his playing on those early records was good enough.

I always remember the footage shot during the Union tour, though, where the band are jamming and Kaye seems to just lose it for a second, while Squire is trying to gee him up to carry on (it's on the marvellous Yes Years video).

[luna65]

Aye. I think you're far too much of a fanboy to be able to engage in a subjective discussion about this, Trevor's "magnum opus", so I'll leave you be.

Here's your handbag, back. You dropped it when you reached for the tissues, son.
:lmao:
You mean an objective discussion, perhaps? Either way, insulting me and totally misidentifying my sex doesn't really count as a victory for you.

[ariceffron]

tony is far and away the best and most appropriate choice for yes music: when he is not on a yes record,i mentally erase all synthesizer parts and replace them with Hammond-the only exceptinon where i feel rick is in his own, is Tormato-- besides that, all tony

[kmcpro615]

I would say always, but I'm of the opinion that engineers are the unsung heroes of the recording process.

Well on most successful recordings it's a team of people...not just an artist and engineer. The artist may have the final say, but having good input in the creative process is a good thing. Music, in my opinion is an art form that offers many opportunities for the whole to be greater than the sum of it's parts.

[CybrKhatru]

for better or for worse, "prog" is associated (often) with virtuosic and flashy playing. Tony (IMO) plays with a lot of taste, which is often the opposite of flash. Maybe that's why he doesn't get as much cred as he deserves.

[ANTIOCH]

for better or for worse, "prog" is associated (often) with virtuosic and flashy playing. Tony (IMO) plays with a lot of taste, which is often the opposite of flash. Maybe that's why he doesn't get as much cred as he deserves.

I agree ! Tony Banks falls into this same stereotype. They play what's needed. Tony Kaye rocks !!

[Earl Grey]

LOL 90125 well before that is was an XYZ album etc Though I guess some of that turned up on K2A as well

The XYZ album is one of those things that should've, could've been, yet never was. I guess Jimmy Page went on and recorded the 'Firm' album, which was... eh, OK. 'Radioactive' was a pretty cool jam. The rest of the thing was a thing. Not all that great, or memorable.

But, what if the guys had recorded and toured with XYZ, and hadn't gone on to record 90125, 9012-Live, Big Gen, and TALK?

The 80's were certainly the most lucrative years for YES (Yes, I know that TALK is a 90's album, but I still tend to put it into the same basket: It's Trevor, ya know?).

It kept the band busy, it stretched the parameters of what they could do, it brought in a new generation of fans.

And the financial element made it possible for YES to return to the 'Trooper' line-up so many of us love, as the monetary element wasn't what was guiding the band's creativity.

Every line-up has been important to the band, as the core philosophy of YES is to constantly be in flux.

I have the greatest respect and love for what Tony has brought to the band through the years. He was integral in those formative years, bringing a bluesy soulful R&B element to the band that otherwise wouldn't be there.
~~~~~~~~

This is a fun thread! I love to talk Tony Kaye.

He's a hero and a friend, and perhaps the most amicable past member of YES. He never has a bad word to say about any of his old band-mates...

And the man is playing better than ever, as evidenced on the CIRCA: albums.

An extraordinary fellow, the illustrious Mr. Kaye.

eegee:yesbird:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Lisaj59/IMG_5598.jpg

I guess that that's the TALK I'm most impressed by: Tony's honesty and candor.

[kirklott]

I don't like Talk.

On www.progarchives.com, according to ratings from 101 fans, Talk is the best album between Drama and The Ladder, as well as better than Tormato. So some people do like it.

[Earl Grey]

I really like TALK.

It's a very different YES album, it probably has less input from the rest of the band, and more of Trevor Rabin's influence than any other album.

'Endless Dream' is a true epic. It's Trevor hearkening back to the days before he even knew about YES. I've always thought of it as Rabin's nod to the past, with an eye to his own future: Which, ironically, now consists of nothing but epics, as movie soundtracks are his vehicle of expression.

We owe a lot to Trevor Rabin, whether you love his music or not, he kept the band going when it appeared there was no future for YES.

He's an amazing musician, producer; a composer in the proper sense, writing symphonic works on paper to be performed by an orchestra.

When I was a young pup, I didn't quite get it. I was used to the old YES, and didn't want to deal with change on such a grand level.

As the years tooled by, I've found a great love and respect for everything Rabin does and has done.

Trevor Rabin added to the brew of the band in an inimitable way, adding gloss and studio savvy, giving Chris an on-stage foil in rock moves and gesticulations that Steve Howe has only just recently discovered.

The man is, simply put, a musical genius.

I'm primarily a 'Trooper' as to what I generally listen to by the band. But: It was a great day when I finally gave myself permission to enjoy everything YES has ever done.

There are phases to the band that I love more than others.

I doubt if TALK will ever be my favorite YES album.

But it's a good album, there's a lot going on in there, and I'm glad the band recorded it.


eegee:yesbird:

[Albedo]

I like most of the music on Talk. It's my favorite of Yeswest albums. There is something about the production that bothers me though. Somehow it seems harsh and wears my ears out, but I can't put my finger on the problem. I'd listen to it more if not for that.

[podo]

I like most of the music on Talk. It's my favorite of Yeswest albums. There is something about the production that bothers me though. Somehow it seems harsh and wears my ears out, but I can't put my finger on the problem. I'd listen to it more if not for that.

Its because its pure digital.

It came out as digital recording was really taking off. Doesnt it say something somewhere about being the first album recorded compltly digitally ??

These days, whilst everything is still digital, things have been improved so it doesnt sound as harsh

You listen in analogue

[luna65]

Its because its pure digital.

It came out as digital recording was really taking off. Doesnt it say something somewhere about being the first album recorded compltly digitally ??

These days, whilst everything is still digital, things have been improved so it doesnt sound as harsh

You listen in analogue

According to one press release:
To that end Talk holds it place in the history of the recording arts as the first album comprehensively recorded on a non-linear computer system - the entire album was recorded direct to disk rather than to tape.
Trevor used four Macintosh computers synced together running Mark of the Unicorn's Performer software, with a DDA Profile recording console.

Admittedly, there have been some great strides made in conversion technology to enable analog-to-digital, for example, to retain the same sonic character due to improvements in sampling rates.

[Albedo]

Its because its pure digital.

It came out as digital recording was really taking off. Doesnt it say something somewhere about being the first album recorded compltly digitally ??

These days, whilst everything is still digital, things have been improved so it doesnt sound as harsh

You listen in analogue
Right, but all CDs are digital and they don't have that problem for me. Is it something about recording direct to digital vs. A/D conversion that was different?

[luna65]

Right, but all CDs are digital and they don't have that problem for me. Is it something about recording direct to digital vs. A/D conversion that was different?
Yes, in the sense that it was the first directly-digital recording, so it's a more obvious example of how the technology can affect the overall sound, IMO.

[Roadkill]

:lmao:
You mean an objective discussion, perhaps? Either way, insulting me and totally misidentifying my sex doesn't really count as a victory for you.

Oh, get over yourself, you fool. I won't bother explaining the handbag reference to you; suffice to say you're so bloated on your own opinions any further discussion with you would be a total waste of my time.

[90125yes]

so we can safely say that tony kaye did appear on talk ?

[Roadkill]

Its because its pure digital.

It came out as digital recording was really taking off. Doesnt it say something somewhere about being the first album recorded compltly digitally ??

These days, whilst everything is still digital, things have been improved so it doesnt sound as harsh

You listen in analogue

Phil Collins used digital technology to record some of the musicians for his But Seriously album. Still in its infancy, he and Hugh Padgham broke most of the recorders they used. Collins recognised, though, that certain instruments - like bass and drums - lost a lot of warmth when recorded digitally so he continued to record them using analogue. That marriage of both recording techniques does avoid that harshness on the ears, I find. That and the fact that Collins doesn't bleed every idea dry by constantly polishing and shining every song to the nth degree.

[Roadkill]

I really like TALK.

It's a very different YES album, it probably has less input from the rest of the band, and more of Trevor Rabin's influence than any other album.

'Endless Dream' is a true epic. It's Trevor hearkening back to the days before he even knew about YES. I've always thought of it as Rabin's nod to the past, with an eye to his own future: Which, ironically, now consists of nothing but epics, as movie soundtracks are his vehicle of expression.

We owe a lot to Trevor Rabin, whether you love his music or not, he kept the band going when it appeared there was no future for YES.

He's an amazing musician, producer; a composer in the proper sense, writing symphonic works on paper to be performed by an orchestra.

When I was a young pup, I didn't quite get it. I was used to the old YES, and didn't want to deal with change on such a grand level.

As the years tooled by, I've found a great love and respect for everything Rabin does and has done.

Trevor Rabin added to the brew of the band in an inimitable way, adding gloss and studio savvy, giving Chris an on-stage foil in rock moves and gesticulations that Steve Howe has only just recently discovered.

The man is, simply put, a musical genius.

I'm primarily a 'Trooper' as to what I generally listen to by the band. But: It was a great day when I finally gave myself permission to enjoy everything YES has ever done.

There are phases to the band that I love more than others.

I doubt if TALK will ever be my favorite YES album.

But it's a good album, there's a lot going on in there, and I'm glad the band recorded it.


eegee:yesbird:

Firstly, can I just say a belated thanks for the transcription of your interview with Tony kaye? Fabulous stuff and very revealing - you've got to interview him some more though, chief, because that was one tantalising talk you both had!

I agree with you on Talk, though (not so much about Rabin being a genius!). It seemed to be Rabin's last gasp at making the Yes album he truly wanted to make. Maybe that's why it smacks so much of being a one-man project (as he himself said "There's only two ways of doing things: your way and the wrong way") but it's still a shame that he recorded it the way he did.

After Union, I did wonder what was next for the band and in what incarnation they would continue. When I saw talk on the shelves, not having heard any advance publicity, I was surprised and very excited. That feeling pretty much went out the window when I heard it but I do acknowledge that the songs are really good. Rabin seems obsessed with hooklines, right from 90125, and there's plenty on this album, but it still doesn't detract from the strength of the compositions.

I think I'd like to hear those songs in a 'live' context to appreciate them more; a soundboard mix or an audience recording has got to be better than Rabin's much vaunted "DDD" production!

[Albedo]

I think I'd like to hear those songs in a 'live' context to appreciate them more; a soundboard mix or an audience recording has got to be better than Rabin's much vaunted "DDD" production!
There are one or two soundboards from the Talk tour in the Trading Room. If there are no open weeds available I can hook you up with one of them.

[rphheather]

I think I'd like to hear those songs in a 'live' context to appreciate them more; a soundboard mix or an audience recording has got to be better than Rabin's much vaunted "DDD" production!

Not too long ago I received a DVD of the Talk tour and I thought, these songs are a lot better than I remember. I think they are indeed better live.

I also agree with everyone who has stated that the songs themselves are actually good , it is that cold sterile metallic production that mars the album.

[Roadkill]

There are one or two soundboards from the Talk tour in the Trading Room. If there are no open weeds available I can hook you up with one of them.

Cheers; I'll check out that thread now. It's been a while since I was involved in weeding (I cut my eye teeth on some of the Genesis hubs) and I think it's a grand thing for fans to do for each other.

[Roadkill]

I agree ! Tony Banks falls into this same stereotype. They play what's needed. Tony Kaye rocks !!

Aye, Banks is comparatively restrained as a player, even on the old Genesis albums. He's always seen himself as a songwriter first and a player second, though, and maybe that's one reason why he's not as demonstrative a player as say, Wakemen or Emmerson.

[luna65]

I think I'd like to hear those songs in a 'live' context to appreciate them more; a soundboard mix or an audience recording has got to be better than Rabin's much vaunted "DDD" production!
Well, and much like Albedo I could have provided you with several shows, but...I hope you understand why I'm not especially motivated to do so now.

[Roadkill]

Well, and much like Albedo I could have provided you with several shows, but...I hope you understand why I'm not especially motivated to do so now.

Fully.

[bjlevine]

Aye, Banks is comparatively restrained as a player, even on the old Genesis albums. He's always seen himself as a songwriter first and a player second, though, and maybe that's one reason why he's not as demonstrative a player as say, Wakemen or Emmerson.
Mad Man Moon is the definitive Tony Banks piece to me. Incredible keyboard work in the middle section. He has that restrained British mannerism (not unlike Oliver Wakeman), which is why he was happy to let Peter/Phil take center stage.

[Roadkill]

Gotta love Tony Banks! The heart and soul of Genesis, without a doubt. It's de rieguer to knock Phil Collins for introducing a certain element into the band, but Tony was the first to say "I love you" in a song - indeed, Mad Man Moon is the very tune - and he also wrote Many Too Many which has the line "oh, mama" in it - apparently he had to convince Collins to sing that line, yet years later Collins himself wrote the song Mama!

Banks had a certain way with words, and lines like "undinal songs urge the sailors on" or "nylon sheets and blankets help to minimise the cold" don't scan too well and require a certain knack to sing them well. I'd always argue that Collins did a better job with Banks lyrics than Gabriel, imbuing emotion and passion that didn't exactly fly off the page.

Back to Mad Man Moon, though, Banks never felt that the band played it as well as he'd hoped.

[SilverShoes]

Aye, Banks is comparatively restrained as a player, even on the old Genesis albums. .

The whole band was restrained in comparison to their contemporaries. I've mentioned before that there's not a lot of overly flashy playing on their records. Their music was put the emphasis on melody and structure and the flash only came into play when it was appropriate.

[Earl Grey]

Firstly, can I just say a belated thanks for the transcription of your interview with Tony kaye? Fabulous stuff and very revealing - you've got to interview him some more though, chief, because that was one tantalising talk you both had!

I agree with you on Talk, though (not so much about Rabin being a genius!). It seemed to be Rabin's last gasp at making the Yes album he truly wanted to make. Maybe that's why it smacks so much of being a one-man project (as he himself said "There's only two ways of doing things: your way and the wrong way") but it's still a shame that he recorded it the way he did.

After Union, I did wonder what was next for the band and in what incarnation they would continue. When I saw talk on the shelves, not having heard any advance publicity, I was surprised and very excited. That feeling pretty much went out the window when I heard it but I do acknowledge that the songs are really good. Rabin seems obsessed with hooklines, right from 90125, and there's plenty on this album, but it still doesn't detract from the strength of the compositions.

I think I'd like to hear those songs in a 'live' context to appreciate them more; a soundboard mix or an audience recording has got to be better than Rabin's much vaunted "DDD" production!

Hey Roadkill,

Thank You. It was all my pleasure.

I spoke with Tony a couple of weeks ago about doing the next interview, ...he's busy putting the finishing touches on the AKA album right now, but a second interview should be in the cards once the guys are finished with the current project.

All the best,
Earl:yesbird:

[Roadkill]

Hey Roadkill,

Thank You. It was all my pleasure.

I spoke with Tony a couple of weeks ago about doing the next interview, ...he's busy putting the finishing touches on the AKA album right now, but a second interview should be in the cards once the guys are finished with the current project.

All the best,
Earl:yesbird:

Cool, look forward to more of your writing, chief.

[Roadkill]

The whole band was restrained in comparison to their contemporaries. I've mentioned before that there's not a lot of overly flashy playing on their records. Their music was put the emphasis on melody and structure and the flash only came into play when it was appropriate.

I think that was instrumental in them becoming such a good pop band, to be honest, and why their peers sounded so unconvincing when they tried their hand at it.

[kirk]

NOT Cool to take on multiple identities to attack
another poster.

K

[Roadkill]

NOT Cool to take on multiple identities to attack
another poster.

K

Roadkill's folly is actually the director of a fan group that has sprung up over the weekend. They're printing T-shirts and everything (I believe Roadkill's folly has a poster of me over his bed). To be honest, I'm quite scared. Not only am I not worthy of such attention but stalkers really do give me the creeps.

[InverYes]

NOT Cool to take on multiple identities to attack
another poster.

K

Very true.

[Roadkill]

Thanks to a very kind soul on the forum, I now have a copy of two shows from the tour (what a bloody pity that they never reached Blighty on this tour) and I'm loving what I'm seeing and hearing. Tony Kaye clearly enjoyed himself on this outing! Very animated.

[Earl Grey]

I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Tony last thursday; Tony addressed the issue of TALK, the rumors around the album, and the tour.

I'll post the entire interview (All 90 minutes of it!) as soon as I finish transcribing it.

But, before I post the interview, I would like to kick-in a little bit here first: Tony states that he not only played all of the Hammond Organ on the album, but also played most of the synthesizers on the album.

In concert, indeed, Billy Sherwood played bits and pieces here and there, but only embellishments (During the times where Tony would have required more than two hands to have played any particular part, then sure, Billy assisted).

Billy also added guitar embellishments as well, when Trevor Rabin would have required more than two hands to carry something off.

But the Lion's Share of what you hear on keyboards, whether on the album, or live: That's Tony playing. Tony even had a keyboard on stage, to his upper left, where he triggered the samples from.

...Tony mentioned an old 'roadie', who exaggerated his role under the stage, "When he was trying to impress 'groupies' during the tour..."

Tony told me that he was aware of the rumors, and knew exactly who they originated from, and that he probably should have addressed the matter years ago, but didn't think the roadie's rumors would go 'viral' as they did.

This comes directly from Tony Kaye. He spoke quite a bit about the whole thing, and once I finish transcribing the interview, you'll be able to read this, in context, and in his own words.

Hope that clears this up: Tony Kaye played nearly every keyboard part that you hear on TALK.

'nuff said! ;)

Earl Grey:yesbird:

[CybrKhatru]

Right on Earl! Thanks...I suspected that that was the truth. Will be a pleasure to read Interview Part 2. :D

[Earl Grey]

Right on Earl! Thanks...I suspected that that was the truth. Will be a pleasure to read Interview Part 2. :D

Thanks Matt! ...Tony speaks VERY highly of you bye the way, he said, "Matt Brown is an AMAZING keyboardist, he can play anything! ...And he's a sweetheart of a guy."

I thought you might like to hear that!

Hugs Brutha!
URLie:yesbird:

[CybrKhatru]

Thanks buddy.. Tony is a gentleman, and a kickass musician to boot, but we all know that, right? :D

[YesHut]

Good to see this and stop some of the nonsense on the site. Thank Earl, and right on hearing the props to Matt. Hats off to Matt and Tony.

[MikeYESfan]

Thanks Matt! ...Tony speaks VERY highly of you bye the way, he said, "Matt Brown is an AMAZING keyboardist, he can play anything! ...And he's a sweetheart of a guy."

I thought you might like to hear that!

Hugs Brutha!
URLie:yesbird:

Hey Matt..take a bow...

[MikeYESfan]

I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Tony last thursday; Tony addressed the issue of TALK, the rumors around the album, and the tour.

I'll post the entire interview (All 90 minutes of it!) as soon as I finish transcribing it.

But, before I post the interview, I would like to kick-in a little bit here first: Tony states that he not only played all of the Hammond Organ on the album, but also played most of the synthesizers on the album.

In concert, indeed, Billy Sherwood played bits and pieces here and there, but only embellishments (During the times where Tony would have required more than two hands to have played any particular part, then sure, Billy assisted).

Billy also added guitar embellishments as well, when Trevor Rabin would have required more than two hands to carry something off.

But the Lion's Share of what you hear on keyboards, whether on the album, or live: That's Tony playing. Tony even had a keyboard on stage, to his upper left, where he triggered the samples from.

...Tony mentioned an old 'roadie', who exaggerated his role under the stage, "When he was trying to impress 'groupies' during the tour..."

Tony told me that he was aware of the rumors, and knew exactly who they originated from, and that he probably should have addressed the matter years ago, but didn't think the roadie's rumors would go 'viral' as they did.

This comes directly from Tony Kaye. He spoke quite a bit about the whole thing, and once I finish transcribing the interview, you'll be able to read this, in context, and in his own words.

Hope that clears this up: Tony Kaye played nearly every keyboard part that you hear on TALK.

'nuff said! ;)

Earl Grey:yesbird:

EARL..We can't wait...
Now that my Week of YES!Asia shows has ended, it is time to Focus on AKA. and I NEED a FIX of TK.

Does he talk about AKA or is that the Next interview?
YES

[Rabin105]

I missed out on question time Darn it :( oh well i just want his recolection of the 88-91 era of yes

[Earl Grey]

EARL..We can't wait...
Now that my Week of YES!Asia shows has ended, it is time to Focus on AKA. and I NEED a FIX of TK.

Does he talk about AKA or is that the Next interview?
YES

Hey Mike mi brutha!

Tony spoke a little about AKA, but we'll have much more to talk about once the CD is out, and a tour is on the way!

Tony did mention that he want's to do another interview.

:ele:

Hugs,
Earl:rightG:

[xlink_nz]

But, before I post the interview, I would like to kick-in a little bit here first: Tony states that he not only played all of the Hammond Organ on the album, but also played most of the synthesizers on the album... Hope that clears this up: Tony Kaye played nearly every keyboard part that you hear on TALK.

'nuff said! ;)

Earl Grey:yesbird:

Cool there are some nice keyboards other than Organ but
why is Kaye not credited other than 'Organ' on the recording !

[Earl Grey]

Cool there are some nice keyboards other than Organ but
why is Kaye not credited other than 'Organ' on the recording !

I'm honestly not sure why. One more question for the next interview I guess!

eegee

[Zulubass]

Talk, for some reason, is a...cassette...that I played the heck out of while driving up and down I-95 between North Carolina and Philly while courting my to-be wife. It's a very broad musical landscape, with interesting recurring themes. Kept me from falling asleep at the wheel for sure.

[Earl Grey]

I'm still banging-out the transcription of my last TK interview kids: Promise, I'll have it out to you within a week or so (Visious busy here lately, yipes!).

Hugs!
EArliE:yesbird:

[ariceffron]

thats interesting: re- going viral....i guess there was no way predict something like that but yea, thats totally what happened.

[zenslinger]

Hope that clears this up: Tony Kaye played nearly every keyboard part that you hear on TALK.



And, I guess you're saying, more than most people thought he played on the 90125 tour.

I think Tony was credited as playing "Organ" to emphasize his sound, his role on that album. I remember Trevor on Rockline saying Tony's organ sound was powerful enough to drown his own guitar out, and that this "really pissed [Trevor] off". Trevor said this in such a way so as to pay a compliment to Tony -- whether he was being sincere, or trying to kind of apologize for his own overbearing role in the production of the album, I'm not sure.

[Earl Grey]

Yes.

Tony was THE keyboardist for the 90125 tour. And played all the keys.

But primarily, we were jabbering about the TALK tour, and Tony was emphatic about this: That he played all the keyboards, even triggering samples from his secondary keyboard on the upper right side.

That Billy played extra bits and pieces under the stage, when Tony would require more than two hands to do so. Billy also triggered CDs to play at appropriate moments, and played guitar embellishments when Trevor would have required more than three hands!

But: Tony WAS the keyboardist on the CD, as well as on stage, playing both synthesizers, as well as his split-hammond.

Tony mentioned how there are many of those who are unfamiliar with the idea of split keyboards (Where one can play one sound on the bottom keys, and have an entirely different sound: even percussion if desired, on the high-end of the keyboard), and this may have contributed to some of the rumors out there...

Anyhoo... Tony was the sole keyboardist, except for embellishments, on all of the albums and tours he was featured on.

Hope this stops the rumors in their tracks!

Best,
Earl:yesbird:

[Malcolm Birkett]

Look...I could say a gazillion and one things...

What's the point? Folks have their views and conceptions.

All I will say is that, for me, Tony Kaye is 'the original the legend'...he was the keyborad player when I first fell in absolute rapturous love with Yes...and what a player....loved him then, love him now...will always love him...

OK...amidst a multitude of references I could give live...and I think I have mentioned this before...I absolutely adore Soli's Beard...why? Of course because of Trevor's virtuosity but...hell...listen to what Tony is doing during the intro'...I have vivid memories of the 90125 tour with the lasers during this...and TK's keys....amazing sounds, atmospherics...wonderful!

Oh...and, argue and debate all you want about the Yes days...but listen to TK on CIRCA:HQ and just rejoice!!!