Do you hate Union?

[Byroan]

I've read in "Perpetual Change" (a very good Yes book) that Yes hated Union. Rick calls it Onion. I've seen other comments indicating the same thoughts. I can understand the band's frustration during this time, and I can appreciate Ricks feelings as well, considering his limited roll, but its not as bad as all that, is it? I very much like this cd, and think it is very progressive in parts- what do you all think?

[scooter13]

I think there are some REALLY good ideas on this album. But the overall feel is very inconsistent. Some of the ABWH songs give the feeling of being better songs left to a solo album by Jon. Songs like "Angkor Wat", "Dangerous", and "Silent Talking" are all great tunes. But they just don't sound like Yes songs, with fuller instrumentation and arrangements. And why does Steve get his own solo track? Sure he's a great guitarist, but Trevor is no slouch!!

[ycantibu]

I think the best songs on Union are the Rabin songs, altho The More We Live is ok as well. The one song that really drives me mad is Shock to the System. The guitar makes me want to tear at my flesh with razor blades.

[yes_angel]

I Love Union,I know others did not really care for that CD but it holds a very special meaning to me and always will.

[Byroan]

I agree with you scooter13 that it is inconsistant, but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that it's two different bands recording at two different times- although I think there were some overdubs by Rick. I was listening to Masquerade today, and was thinking that is a great solo bit by Steve- he should use that as his solo spot on the tour. Im suprised by ycantibu's reaction to Shock to the System. It doesn't strike me as being that bad. Different strokes eh.

[bender]

Different Strokes all right.... I think Shock To The System is one of the highlights of the album, and I like Silent talking too!

With the exception of Silent Talking, after the 3rd track (Masquerade?) the album goes straight downhill!

Is it true that there are many session musicians on the album as well as the Yes guys?

I used to think Union was the worst Yes album - until I heard Open Your Eyes!

[Earl Grey]

Originally posted by ycantibu
...The one song that really drives me mad is Shock to the System. The guitar makes me want to tear at my flesh with razor blades.

Shock To The System.

A cup of expresso.

The most 'YES WEST' song of Union, and Howe's guitar is the sharp distance here...

I love Rabin and Howe. And I think, if they could put away differences, they could actually DO something together...

'Shock' is that wild card.

That strange proof...

The proof that YES is a gene-pool, that all are involved. That every voice is heard and taken to heart.

And 'Shock' is the weird wavering mirage-horizon where Trevor is Howe and Howe is...

It was a moment.

YES is.

:ele:

[Mr. Holland]

I really like a couple of tracks on Union, mainley the first part of the album (with the exception of Saving My heart, that is just simple pop). After The More We Live - Let Go the album really starts to fade away in terms of being good or great. I have to agree with some of the posters above that the album is inconsistant and that is due to the fact their are two bands playing, many writers of songs nad many session musicians. I know that most of the band doesn't like that album, espeacially Rick and Steve, but I've said before in another thread, if that is so, then why not take two tracks from the album and serve them to us live on tour and show us what they think the tracks should have sounded like! That is doing somethin g with it, instead of just whining about it.............

[Dale Cleary]

I like it :D
Although it should have been two seperate records. No wonder Bill doesn't want to play with rock musicians anymore. He was royally shafted.

[YESYOUANDI]

No I don't like it.
It's one big too many cooks mess.---and that includes the in the round tour.
And what's more---that tricky trevor one riff wonder is on it too!!
Cheers all.

[Earl Grey]

It's not my favorite of the catalogue, but not my most unfavorite either...

It has it's moments, in fact, a few... The proof of the pudding is in this: that I DO listen to Union from time to time.

I really like the Trevor songs, I love 'I Would Have Waited Forever' (Although, I prefer the elongated mix from In A Word.).

As to the Union Tour?!?! That was one of the BEST Yestours EVER! At least to me it was... And Trevor has FAR more than one riff going there...

Not going to go into that old saw, 'Trevor Vs Howe': I got over that crap a couple of years ago... A silly argument.

Trevor and Howe BOTH rock.

Earlie:ele:

[ycantibu]

I know, odd coming from a Generator, isn't it? It's that guitar riff. I just don't like it!


Originally posted by Earl Grey
Shock To The System.

A cup of expresso.

The most 'YES WEST' song of Union, and Howe's guitar is the sharp distance here...

I love Rabin and Howe. And I think, if they could put away differences, they could actually DO something together...

'Shock' is that wild card.

That strange proof...

The proof that YES is a gene-pool, that all are involved. That every voice is heard and taken to heart.

And 'Shock' is the weird wavering mirage-horizon where Trevor is Howe and Howe is...

It was a moment.

YES is.

:ele:

[BlueEagle]

Union is a very frustrating album. Musically, its not bad. But the way it was produced and it's patched together feel is off-putting. It is presented as a collaboration of all the members when in fact as Dale Cleary pointed out, it should have been two albums. Also, with all the talent here, why were outside musicians used???? One gets the idea the company rushed this out before the lawyers changed their minds.:fmad:

[RobAdams]

It's cluttered, it's inconsistant, it's confusing. I think this album is one of the best cluttered inconsistant and confusing albums ever. It's far from what could have been, but I like it.

ycantibu - I have to agree with you on SHOCK somewhat. Overall, I like that track, but that riff rubs me the wrong way.

[BrianD]

Its a compilation rather than an album. There are parts of the album I like a lot - Shock to the system, Silent Talking, The More we live - let go, Angkor Wat, Lift me up. There is a lot of schlock as well - Saving my Heart (my least favorite Yes song of all time), Dangerous, Holding on etc

I think the album disappoints as much because with all of the talented musicians involved, a lot more could have been expected. And then there are so many other musos who added their bit its hard to know what is Yes and what isn't.

[Dances w/PURPLE]

I don't hate any YES albums. I have my lessor faves but wouldn't trash the entire album.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Originally posted by BrianD
Its a compilation rather than an album. There are parts of the album I like a lot - Shock to the system, Silent Talking, The More we live - let go, Angkor Wat, Lift me up. There is a lot of schlock as well - Saving my Heart (my least favorite Yes song of all time), Dangerous, Holding on etc

I think the album disappoints as much because with all of the talented musicians involved, a lot more could have been expected. And then there are so many other musos who added their bit its hard to know what is Yes and what isn't.

Hi Brian - I hear you. Great points, and I pretty much agree.

I happen to really love Union, but certainly have trouble with "Saving My Heart" & "Dangerous" (especially "Dangerous" - but ya gotta admit that "Run from your fear" section is neat-o). What's interesting to me though, is that I don't like a few others that lots of people seem to love:

- "Miracle of Life" I think has some awkward (to be polite) lyrics, and although I like the intro, I can't swallow the tune itself.

- "Lift Me Up" is okay . . . can't decide if I like it or if I don't. Sometimes I like it, other times I mistake it for a song about a cooking a hamburger.

[I loved Big Generator, so you know, this isn't about Rabin vs. Howe - I just think the YesWest material wasn't as good as what they did on BG & 90125.]



[To anyone who doesn't dig this tune (yet!):] What made me post here was "Holding On." Give this tune another chance . . . it's become my favorite on the album. Especially check out the guitar/bass interplay behind Jon singing "It was the first time that I saw you" etc. Even though the song is short, it feels huge at the end.

Oh, and Jon's vocal is great on that song. What else is new?! :D

[Flo]

Actually I quite like the record. At the time of release I was happy about it but I listen to it as if it was made by another band than Yes. It hasn't got the true Yes feeling. It's just good progressive music to me with the voice of Anderson which is a plus.

[Faceintheplace]

I like some of the material. "I Would Have Wated Forever" is very strong, "Shock to the System" gets trurer with each passing year but I read a while ago that it was made from the closing riff of a song Steve Howe wrote. I'd like to hear Steve's original song some day. "Masquerade" is a beautiful guitar peice, pretty close in form to "Sketches in the Sun," "Lift Me Up" is bearable, "Without Hope..." is okay but nowhere near as good as the ABWH II original because of how Elias butchered the track, "Saving My Heart" gets too far into adult contempory for me, it was done better live than on the album (at least with the live version, we can be sure its actually Yes playing it), "Miracle of Life" is one of my favorite Trevor songs, "Silent Talking" should be longer, its one of the better tracks, "The More We Give..." is one of my favorites, but its bassically a Billy Sheerwood demo with Jon's vocals pasted on top, "Angkor Watt" I've never liked, too slow moving, "Holding On" has a weak intro then picks up, the less said about "Dangerous" the better, "Evensong" is just a brief snippet of music. I'd love to hear a more developed version. "Take The Water..." also needs expanding. It just gets moving then Elias cuts it short and cuts to Jon making weird vocal sounds.

[Joedude]

It's not bad at all, but it could have been done better. I like the CD (I also like the way the actual CD looks - good Roger Dean cover), but I feel there's alot of wasted potential. Songs like Holding On and Without Hope are two songs I felt weren't up to the standards they should have been.

It's my opinion, of course.

[blueclaw]

80% of it I think is not good at all. Most of the ABWH II stuff represents this area. Although there are some moments like in "Silent Spring."

30% of it I like. This obviously represents the YesWest stuff. However, these songs are clearly Rabin/solo tracks. "Miracle of Life" is practically the same on his demo album 90124. "Lift Me Up" is a later version of "Cover Up" taken from his solo album Can't Look Away. "Saving My Heart" is a demo as stated by Rabin himself. I don't think any of the other guys played on these tracks. And "The More We Live" was a finished track by Sherwood and Squire.

While the album tanked I think the tour was great. I recently bought the "Union" tour on DVD and thought it was a great show. Lots of energy and fun.

Tom

[yesyadda]

I don't not hate Union.

[Original_Shifty]

Boy, all these threads about Union lately. I think I'm going to have to blow the dust off this cd and put it in the car today. Poor wife has to put up with more Ye$hit.

[Faceintheplace]

Tough. She likes Canadian Idol, so she's the one into $hite, not you. I dug it out the other day too. "Holding On" was much better than I remembered. Apart from the intro, that is one powerful song. They should have done like they did with "Saving My Heart," changed the intro and played it on the '91 tour. It would have gone down aflame. I'm still annoyed by what happened to "Without Hope...". listen at 3:24 in, you can hear a real bad edit. Its the middle section being cut out. Union is not the worst Yes album, but its very very far from being one of their best.

[Jacaranda]

. "Miracle of Life" is practically the same on his demo album 90124.

I think the 90214 version was the real intention of this song. Trevor's singing on the 90214 version fits the song better than Jon's on the Union version, IMHO. Trevor's version seems more 'powered-up' both on his vocals and his guitar playing. It is a favorite of mine on 90214

"Lift Me Up" is a later version of "Cover Up" taken from his solo album Can't Look Away.

Trevor played the intro to LMU at the beginning of the live version of Cover Up, but LMU kinda mutated into what Chris and Trevor tried to do with it. I would like to hear Trevor's original mix of the song, which he says was much better than CD version

"Saving My Heart" is a demo as stated by Rabin himself.

I do like the song, but it would be interesting to hear a fully finished version.

While the album tanked I think the tour was great. I recently bought the "Union" tour on DVD and thought it was a great show.

Tom

Yes, it would have been a great show to see, even with all the bad feelings that came out of it.

J

[illusion]

Yes I do hate it, it's not very good.

[bender]

Well I recently sort of blasted this album on another thread, so I'm not going to do it again but......

I don't hate this album, you can't hate a Yes album, but there's not a lot to love about it either.

[About The Round]

Union, better known as Onion – I can´t say I hate it…but it doesn´t get mutch roundabouts on my cd-player.

How experienced musicans can take a part in sutch producer-crap is beyond my understanding. Perhaps they had to listen to the record company and management because of their financial situation – I know Squire from time to time has done things to keep the whole thing going… but this I think also includes musicans who can´t collaborate on the artistic level needed.

[About The Round]

80% of it I think is not good at all. Most of the ABWH II stuff represents this area. Although there are some moments like in "Silent Spring."

30% of it I like. This obviously represents the YesWest stuff. However, these songs are clearly Rabin/solo tracks. "Miracle of Life" is practically the same on his demo album 90124. "Lift Me Up" is a later version of "Cover Up" taken from his solo album Can't Look Away. "Saving My Heart" is a demo as stated by Rabin himself. I don't think any of the other guys played on these tracks. And "The More We Live" was a finished track by Sherwood and Squire.

While the album tanked I think the tour was great. I recently bought the "Union" tour on DVD and thought it was a great show. Lots of energy and fun.

Tom

Where can I buy this DVD?

[the'YES'kid]

My fav Yesman, calls it Onion and the others... well they hate it too, even John Elias.

I LOVE :valintine it so much I'll bring the Union tour book for the LA in-store for them to sign it. I hope not to upset them with this.

[illusion]

...you can't hate a Yes album...

Of course you can!

I hate Union!

And it's by Yes!

Simple.

:D

[BlueEagle]

I dont hate the album itself. I'd say it's more of a disappointment.
What I do hate is that it was presented as a collaboration by all the musicians.
It should have had a legal disclaimer label>>>
WARNING!!!! ALL MUSICIANS DO NOT APPEAR TOGETHER ON ANY TRACK!!!
or.....
Percent content of YES musicians: 30% by volume.
What they should have done is tour FIRST and record the UNION tracks live with them all playing together. This would have been a lot more honest.

[bender]

Illusion,

Are you telling me that you don't like one single song from Union? Man that's just plain mean :nono:

[illusion]

Nope, but I HATE the album, as I am entitled to do.

[PeterCologne]

Well I recently sort of blasted this album on another thread, so I'm not going to do it again but......

I don't hate this album, you can't hate a Yes album, but there's not a lot to love about it either.

Agree very much with that not hate a yes-album-philosophy, bender. To hate is not really yesish. I never hated one single song by Yes and I won't. Don't like some albums and songs as much as others. Loving Yes is like having 19 childs. Some of them make a lot of problems, but you always try to see something good in them, like I have a lot of sympathy for Brother Of Mine and Birthright and Quartet on ABWH, my least favourite Yes-Album as you know.

Regarding Union, I think, a lot of those songs just thrill me, because they vibrate so much, like I Would Have Waited Forever, Shock To The System, Take The water To The Mountain or Silent Talking. Those and some others from the ABWH-crew are again a totally new and fresh concept of Yes. I like the concrete-atmosphere here, somtimes it is almost industrial, which really has something to to with New W.a.v.e -music. And three of those four Yes-West-Songs - minus Lift Me Up - are just a joy too.

And something else, I never cared about, that a lot of music is not done by Howe and Wakeman, but by session-musicians. I liked Union, when it came out - and nobody knew about those probelems. Why should I change my opinion? The music i like it is, and I like it. Union is by far not my favourite Yes-album, but we are talking about Yes, so even the maybe 15th or 16th favourite Yes-album is still great music.

And another thought, I find Howes and Wakemans complaints about this album a little strange. If they really "hate" the production, why didn't they take the chance to play Shock To The System like it was originally planned during the Union-Tour. In fact, they did it like the studio-version.

Greetings

Peter

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Can't speak for the actual album, Union, as I've yet to receive it from Amazon; so not having heard it, can't comment.

What I can say is that my Japanese import, non-PAL, Area 2 DVD of the Yes Union Tour '91 turned up this week (managed to track it down from info supplied on this board, so a big thanks!) and I played it last night for the first time. What can I say, I loved it - with the following minor reservations......

** It has to be said that 1991 was NOT a good year for either fashion or hair-cuts!! :D Who ever told Rabin that wearing 'sprayed-on' jeans, a vest and being in possession of one of the most offensive Mullets I've yet had the displeasure to be exposed, needs a damned good thrashing! What was the man thinking? It's tantamount to wearing Speedos on a beach!! Anyway, sartorial inelegance aside.......

** The entire ensemble cast looked to be having a whale of time on stage and this obvious camaraderie translated itself into splendid renditions of the set-list!! Rick Wakeman entertained with his japery and at one point pinches Rabin's arse and puts him off playing, and then quickly followed this up with a whispered joke in Trevor's ear which nearly had poor Rabin in tears laughing.

** It is highly noticable, also, that when it comes to 'tickling the ivories', Wakeman is a classically trained practitioner of the first water! Indeed, he makes Tony Kaye look pedestrian in the extreme by comparision. I'll leave any comments about Kaye's wardrobe (wear on earth did those 'pants' come from??) for another time. And, if the rumours that Kaye is currently suing 'Yes' for back royalties, then there must surely be a case for 'Yes' to counter-sue for the emotional distress caused them by having been subjected to Kaye's sartorial butchery!

** I think it has to be said, also, that Steve Howe should just go bald, gracefully !! No amount of pony-tailing in a 'high-n-tight' styleee can mitigate that hair style: I didn't know whether to beat it to death with a stick or give it a saucer of milk!! :D

** Now, about Rabin's obviously dextrous, yet overtly 'AOR/Fast Eddie', contrived guitar histrionics?! There were parts where I was glad to see him playing rhythm guitar to Howe's lead - but then wincing when he'd make an inappropriate break and make the axe scream where it quite patently was not called for! I can only imagine what Howe must have been thinking! Rather like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

** Both Alan White and Bill Bruford were superb; and interesting to see them using different rigs in producing some spectacular percussion: White with his conventional and extensive 'skins'; Bruford with his array of electronic pads. Two very crisp yet distinct sounds being the refreshing result. Bruford no stranger ot the dual-drummer approach having played on various Genesis tours after Phil Collins had to take over singing duties when Peter Gabriel left.

** Jon Anderson: you got the impression that he just loved being there will 'all his old mates' and his voice was on top form for any thing from the Yes canon they chose to play.

** Squire: what can you say about Squire? He's very much, as we say in England, 'The Guvnor' - over-seeing all his charges from Yes lines-up from days of yore and making it happen musically and vocally without dropping a note. 'Dress-coats' aside, top bloke :D

So, all-in-all, the DVD is a very welcome addition to any Yes fan's collection. I await the delivery of the studio 'Union' album with interest.

As an aside, I'm currently listening to 'A Night of Yes Music Plus' by the AWBH quartet, and have to confess to being more than a little happy with the results. Highly recommend - the production value is peerless.

Unitl next time, sports fans! :D

[BredYes]

Where can I buy this DVD?


http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=VPBR-11034

I ordered mine last week and I will probably receive it this week.

[Earl Grey]

...Rather like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.


That may be the funniest thing I've read on Yesfans all year!

And I've read some funny things on Yesfans! Kudos, Compadre!

What a great line! And I will NEVER tell you whether I agree with it or not. But that was great! And funny as hell!

'Please Sir... Can we have more?'
A wonderful post. Thoughtful, and provoking. Carry on, Blessings!

Earlie-G:ele:

[Mr. Holland]

That may be the funniest thing I've read on Yesfans all year!



Yeah, but the year just started, Earl! ;) :D

[JaneEyre]

I recently started "relistening" to Union after a several year break, and I enjoy it more than I did before. I love most of the Rabin-Yes West-type songs and some of the ABWH songs are o.k.

[Gabriel]

Personally, and much to the disbelief of many, I enjoy Union as much as CTTE and Talk; I think its a great album with some truely moving pieces of music; I Would Have Waited Forever, Shock To The System, Lift Me Up, Without Hope You Cannot Start The Day, The More We Live, Silent Talking are all fantastic songs and the rest of the album is not weak at all, with only Saving My Heart being a tad cringe worthy but not shocking by any means.

I think most Yesfans should find at least a quater of the album enjoyable, if not more than half. I didnt have any preconceptions about it at all, with all the various musicians ; I just listened to it, knowing that Yes made the album and thats all, and enjoyed it to the fullest.

[snnrissrvd]

It's the situation behind how _Union_ came about that is so disappointing. There are good songs on the album, but there's a lot of clutter and wasted potential. I don't think the album is nearly as dire as _Open Your Eyes_.

Kevin
http://www.cdbaby.com/caffrey

[Mr. Holland]

It's the situation behind how _Union_ came about that is so disappointing.

I think that is the thing for some people with some other albums to. People's dislike of a certain line-up or dislike of how an album came to be gets in the way of forming a more objective opinion on the music on an album. You see this with Drama, for example where for a lot of Yes fans who don't like it, the main reason is "Jon isn't singing on it and when Jon isn't singing, it's not Yes". Or with albums from the Rabin era "Steve Howe is the only Yes guitarist".

I think that if those fans would be able to put those feelings aside and tried to listen to the music with an open mind and open heart, the majority of them would find that all those albums carry a lot of good music on them. Allthough I have to admit that there are ofcourse also fans who have listened to these albums open minded and just don't like them. So many different people, so many different opinions and tastes, but that only makes the (music)world more colourfull...............

[Gabriel]

I concur with your last paragraph my friend; thats a very good point.

[umgekehrt]

No I don't. I love it.

[brotherofmine]

No I don't. I love it.
I have said before and I will say again and again, "I love it! I love it! I love it!"

[umgekehrt]

To deride the guest musicians just because they're not official members of Yes is pure arrogancy. As if there were no good musicians other than Yes in this world. The Yes men themselves would be the first one to deny this.

[Vic Anderson]

no i like it some songs are really good

[cinderella]

Do I hate the Union album?


Nope. I just listened to it today and I like it. I like it a lot.

[allpurechance]

I remember when it was released,and I was so happy to have it,another Yes album!Huzzah!My sister and I listened to my handpicked highlights in a thunderstorm on the highway.As time passes,I discover that I dislike less and less of their music,and material that I had previously dismissed comes home to me,somehow.Rhythm Of Love on this last tour was like this.But I've always considered The More We Live/Let Go to be 'true' Yes,simply because that's the way it sounds.

[YepMan]

I don't hate the record, but it's only a shadow of what it could have been. I loved the hell out of it at the time, but then I was happy to have any new Yes. I think Squire said that it was actually two albums: Yes and ABWH. Some of it is still pretty good, and some of it I still don't like.

[Scooty]

Smatt and I discussed this over the last couple of days...

Hate is Too strong of a word...dislike..in general? Yup..

But even in saying that..Miracle Of Life is nice, Lift me Up always grabbed my attention, Holding On I have always enjoyed...

So its not Hatred Per Se...

Scooty

[Silent_wings]

Humm

I like Union
It's not my favorite album
but it's not bad
It has it's good moments

[Earl Grey]

I still want to meet the girl who reads the Thai poetry...

I listen to UNION more than I listen to OYE.

UNION is a YES problem child, but even the problem child can amaze you now and then...

[BrianD]

I think one of the main problems with Union is that it failed to meet the expectations of either Yeswest or the Troopers despite havoing everyone (plus some!) involved.

I never disliked it but I was disappointed as I had hoped for a 'major song' on it - ABWH seemed to be going in the right direction but sadly it wasn't there.

[Earl Grey]

We are still waiting for that great album from ABWHRSK&W.

It's out there eternally orbiting a red giant sun somewhere south of the Orion Nebula.

There it is!

Is that a monolith?

No...

A Cosmic Twinkie Then...

What the hell. It will suffice.

I Am Waiting for YES's Universal Cupcake of Pertinence...

I fully expect it to be revealed... Eventually.

Sweet Dreams Earlie...

Now where'd that Hookah go? Ah, there you are you bugger!

:ele:

[allpurechance]

...it's in those glorious boots from that glorious Union Tour,Url!lololol...(my wife came with me to that one!...we were 3rd row...Whaddashow!...makes me happy just thinking about it...!)

[Earl Grey]

The shows were the actual album.

Maybe this is Kismet: The 'publically' (edit: Watch that!) consumed THANG doesn't mean much, outside of 'Shock To The System' and 'I Would Have Waited Forever'.

What matters is the illicit stuff we trade on the semi-sly...

The non-albums are the BEST of YES here.

It makes sense, in an abstract way.

Love those shows! Kudos Frank!

[allpurechance]

...and what a great thing it was ,Url to be amongst those musicians at that time...we had all given them up for...........can't say it!lol.......yet again,we had given them up...and THERE they were!Eight of them,revolving majestically up there on that three tiered stage(where'd THAT thing go?lololol..)...and more amazing than ever(I feel myself begin to Vibrate Highly merely upon the reminisce!....)!!!...

[Scooty]

The Union Tour kicked Butt!!

Loved that tour..
I just got done a few days ago convincing Chris that ...Yes, you did play Awaken on that tour..LOL!!

he honestly didnt remember...
He giggled
I giggled

The Union Tour was what it was all about..the whole Idear...and what a glorious thing it was

[Earl Grey]

Chris is a crack-up!

He's a Yesfan you know...

Cookied onto this addicting place...

'Life is Weird!' quote: Silent Wings.

[Scooty]

To deride the guest musicians just because they're not official members of Yes is pure arrogancy. As if there were no good musicians other than Yes in this world. The Yes men themselves would be the first one to deny this.

Umgy,
if you were Steve Howe..and or Rick Wakeman and found that your contribution to the Union album had been wiped..and or reproduced by hack studio musicians..would you be pissed off?? Gawd knows I would..its pride in ownership my man..Union lacks honesty for the most part..and 20 studio musicains reproducing what Rick, Steve and Gawd knows what else...stinks of a sham to me...

Scooty

[Earl Grey]

Here's a question:

Did Howe ever talk with Trev before a show, delegating a solo here, there... Did they communicate, beyond the guitar licks?

Methinks they must've, though it burnt Howe's ass to share the stage with Trev.

Still, I think Howe truly admires Rabin. They are SO damned different. And it must have been a challenge, and probably a good thing for both of them.

Just listen to 'Yours Is No Disgrace' from Colorado...

Trevor played as though it were the end of the world... It was.

Howe played like Doc Watson.

They both were on top of the game.

And worlds constantly end, polarity changes, ice caps melt, life goes on...

This is the eternal circle of YES.

[Scooty]

EG..that's my point..the tour was phenomenal..I loved the Union tour...without a doubt!!
AND!! The fact that Steve took the upper hand before the Trevor Horn tribute show in London and called Trevor Rabin to mend fences shows me an awful lot about Steve...Thanks again to Chris for suggesting that Steve do so..

Scooty

[Earl Grey]

Chris is the concentric point that Steve Howe, Trevor Rabin...

Jimmy Page for gawd's sake!

...The concentric point they choose to orbit.

This, with good reason.

A solid tether is paramount if you are to paint like Dali or sing like Lady Day.

Squire is ALL that and more.

Now, where's my hookah?

About to hit the hay here Scoot!

A good night on Yesfans. The best in a time.

We have Heav...

We Have Yesfans.

A lucky bunch, us!

Sleep well my friend! Great days ahead!

The Shadow Knows...

:ele:

[Mind Driver]

With the exception of a few songs, I absolutely love Union.

So much so, that last spring, on a long drive from Chicagoland to the Florida panhandle, I plugged it into my CD player and listened to it over and over. I think it is an amazing album.

[rememberer]

I think one of the main problems with Union is that it failed to meet the expectations of either Yeswest or the Troopers despite havoing everyone (plus some!) involved.

That's one of the more tempting reasons I have left not to like Union, is that the musicians themselves don't seem like they were very happy about the process or the results... And that's not a bad one, but I couldn't bring myself not to like CTTE or TFTO if some of it is not necessarily fond memories for them either...

I used to not like it, I got a cassette of it used some years ago, so it was practically free, but I guess seeing the names Squire and Bruford together on the cover, I was expecting CTTE or something... It seems easy to get expectations and prejudice with Yes because they're so capable of getting you spoiled rotten... I had to stop and think really hard about the fact that they'd already done a killer album side twice at the very least before I'd even forgive the shorter songs that followed, but okay where do you go after you've climbed the highest mountain three or four times anyway? Climb some hills and have a picnic :-)

I listen to Union now and really still don't quite understand why I didn't like it. I think part of appreciating it is just diving right in, other Yes music also. I'd read a lot of ugly comments about OYE but I eventually got one anyway, and I've survived quite a few listens now, I think the worst thing I can really say about it is that at the time, Billy's skills as a songwriter maybe didn't seem to have matured quite as much as his skills as a producer. I think that also applies to the first Conspiracy album, but that doesn't stop it in the least from being a great listen, IMHO...

Uh, what was the question again? Lol. Do I hate Union? No, not at all. Still haven't found any Yes music that I hate...

[umgekehrt]

Umgy, if you were Steve Howe..and or Rick Wakeman and found that your contribution to the Union album had been wiped..and or reproduced by hack studio musicians..would you be pissed off?? Gawd knows I would..its pride in ownership my man..Union lacks honesty for the most part..and 20 studio musicains reproducing what Rick, Steve and Gawd knows what else...stinks of a sham to me...
Scooty
I don't think anyone's contribution has been erased and replaced by other musicians. Why would they do that? If Steve or Rick has recorded something, it's in the master tapes. You just have to mix that with the other instruments. If they decided to throw it out of the window, invite other musicians and re-record it, that would cost more. It's bad business.

[Scooty]

I don't think anyone's contribution has been erased and replaced by other musicians. Why would they do that? If Steve or Rick has recorded something, it's in the master tapes. You just have to mix that with the other instruments. If they decided to throw it out of the window, invite other musicians and re-record it, that would cost more. It's bad business.

Lines were absolutely altered, re-arranged and manipulated by other musicians, the hack producer Elias, and various other studio musicians Umgy, it's well documented. Wiped wasnt a choice word to use..but altered beyond the point of recognizing one's own work?? Thats blasphemy, which did occur on the Union recordings.

The album cost too much money too make anyway..LOL! Since when has Yes been business savvy??

Scooty

[Dragonlady]

I loved Union when it was released, still love it.

[umgekehrt]

Lines were absolutely altered, re-arranged and manipulated by other musicians, the hack producer Elias, and various other studio musicians Umgy, it's well documented. Wiped wasnt a choice word to use..but altered beyond the point of recognizing one's own work?? Thats blasphemy, which did occur on the Union recordings.
The album cost too much money too make anyway..LOL! Since when has Yes been business savvy??
Scooty
I'd sure like to see those documents. If what Reniet said in this thread is true, that even Jonathan Elias hated this record, then maybe he was experimenting. And the result of this experiment was not to his satisfaction. For what it's worth, I liked it before I knew about it and I still like it now. My judgement about this album won't be affected by the opinion of Steve Howe or Rick Wakeman.

[Scooty]

Relaaaax Guy..

Im not trying to change anyone's mind..

Geeez Umgy and your usually so calm..;)

I dont hate this record...it just sucks, for the most part..

3 songs..that's all I can give it..
Come to The Wine Bar Umgy..ya need a drink with Uncle Scooty


PS..Documentation can be found in reading from..Yesstories and Close To The Edge books..

But I thought it didnt matter to ya?..LOL...Im having fun..

[cinderella]

Geeez Umgy and your usually so calm..;)


Forgive him, he's had a little too much excitement today.

[umgekehrt]

Scooty dude, I'm calm as cucumber. Just forgot to put smilies on my post that's all. If you were here I'd kiss you (but not before I kiss Cinders first!) hehehe

Oh and Cindy, what excitement? I just woke up!

[cinderella]

Scooty dude, I'm calm as cucumber. Just forgot to put smilies on my post that's all. If you were here I'd kiss you (but not after I kiss Cinders first!) hehehe

Oh and Cindy, what excitement? I just woke up!

You know, the excitement you found at the Queensryche website. ;)


And now I must go to bed!

[pianozach]

Sweet Dreams, Cindy . . .

I learned to love Union after I bought it when it was released. I listened. I liked.

It wasn't until after I already loved it that I discovered the "controversies" about the album.

I simply imagined a band that was getting along and producing an album for my musical enjoyment. I enjoyed. I still do. There's some great stuff on this album. There's diversity. There's change. There's Cambodian poetry. There's some tight vocal harmonizing (or "harmonising," if you're not American). Interesting compositions. Great lead vocals. Great guitar licks. Great drums.

Enjoy this album. Look for it's strengths. Don't listen only to find it's weaknesses - You'll only find faults, even where there really aren't any. :clap:

[Scooty]

Sorta' off topic, but not really, I totally forgot that while I was taking Smatt to the airport I noticed an automotive repair shop called Ankor Wat...

Hmmmmmm

[Buglunch]

I've read in "Perpetual Change" (a very good Yes book) that Yes hated Union. Rick calls it Onion. I've seen other comments indicating the same thoughts. I can understand the band's frustration during this time, and I can appreciate Ricks feelings as well, considering his limited roll, but its not as bad as all that, is it? I very much like this cd, and think it is very progressive in parts- what do you all think?
I call it Onion too, just as the obvious homonym.
Rick is cheesed that he sent MIDI data and not HIM playing and they changed the patching.
Lotsa Rabin and Steve ostensibly not playing what's credited to him.

Saw that tour live in Vancouver--- I'm biased! \o/
And I play keys and bass, yum.

[joecool]

I definately agree that "Union" has some great moments. That tour gave me an entirely different opinion and perspective. Possibly the best tour I've seen!
(1st row at the old Philly Spectrum) It was really somthin'.

[Buglunch]

Well, "Relayer" tour with Moraz, Vancouver, '75...............

Never to be repeated.

[yestor23]

I thought the "UNION" tour was in the top 5 of all the YES shows i've seen, since '77
As much as I love the "classic" lineup, I would love to hear and see Trevor Rabin, Steve Howe, Chris Squire, Rick Wakeman, Alan White, Bill Bruford is damn good but he would be in it for the money not just the music, sorry Bill not this time, and the master Jon Anderson.
Music is magic it's good with syncopation!!

[yestor23]

Or Trevor Rabin. and Peter Banks

[Buglunch]

I'd like to see a Rabin solo tour; where can I get a tape/disc of his solo studio tracks?

Saw Bill B. with Crimson and Earthworks: mighty fine. Anytime for him.
Steve is unique and belongs with Yes. Jon also and Chris.
Rick is great and he'd be just dandy anywhere but said he's staying with Yes for good now.
Alan is such a good drummer he should stay with the best band!


Also would love to see Conspiracy and 'Olias' done live. Wishful drinking, I know...

[yesmusic]

Yes I do like that Cd and I love the Bass in Shock to the System,
like to hear Chris play that

[yesrolfer]

Listened to it today, it kinda grows on ya!
I really like 'Lift Me Up'!

[Scooty]

If I didnt need Union or Big Generator as a completist..

They would make lovely coasters.. :meteo2:

[Vic Anderson]

its ok but its ashame it could have been so much more

[cactus jon]

Take the water to the mountain is my road map to the future.

[Scaramouche]

No i don't hate Union. I don't necessarily think it was a good idea ,but it could have turned out much worse.

You have all aspects of a classic YES album here. You have the contributions of ABWH (or YES EAST if you like) in the spirit of the earlier albums, like Shock to the System for example, and for lovers of the Rabin era (or rather YES WEST) you have tracks like Lift me up, or Miracle of Life.

For some reason I have always looked upon yesfans from the seventies and yesfans from the eighties as two warring factors...a foolish comparison I suppose and one that goes against the spirit of YES themselves, but the age old disputes about which one is the best YES still go on today..you only have to look at some of the threads on this site to see that. But Union gave us the opportunity to change all that.

Okay the album didn't do too well, and it did nothing to advance the reputation of YES to a new audiance or anything like that, but for the first and only time it gave yesfans of both genres a chance to come together in support of one YES album.

It wasn't just a Union of Yes members past and present, but it was a Union of yesfans worldwide.

With this being the case..maybe the album was a lot more successful in other ways than people will ever give it credit for.

Love and Magnification

Scaramouche xx

[Buglunch]

The fans who got into Yes from 90125 weren't like those who got into the gentler Space Baroque of the 70s: two solitudes with no need for warring, unless like me you know all of it and worship the best.
Even the dross is better than most stuff Out There ;).
\o/

[SonicDeath10]

the production on this album is insane. listen to i would have waited forever, and hear those insane vocals swapping back and forth for like a 5 second period. it probably took hours to do that. it seems like a lot of work went into this, but in the end little good songs were done... and little of the playing DOESN'T sound completelyg eneric, like studio hacks, except for that great hammond riff in that song i unfortunately can't remember the name of: that's pure tony kaye hammond riff magic!

it also doesn't sound right in the context of the song. oh well.

[cinderella]

I really like 'Lift Me Up'!

I do too. Trevor used the intro of Lift Me Up to open up a lot of his live shows. On his Live In LA cd he combined it with a song he does called Cover Up. Very nice, very powerful effect. The audience loved it. Me too. :valintine




They would make lovely coasters

My father used to say that about all of my records. Actually he said he'd like to use them as frisbees and sail them out the window into the nearest brick wall!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Cinderella528/N99/badhairday.gif

[Ronboy]

Glad I found this topic.

I first bought Union on Tape, played it a couple of times and did not like it. Hence it was the only CD missing from my collection until last Sunday. I bought it again and listened to it all the way through and loved it. I mentioned on an earlier message that Union was on a par with Open Your Eyes as the worst CD released by YES and/or other band members. How wrong I was!! I have totally changed my mind and as much as I love the Classic YES line up I have to say that recently I have been playing 90125, Big Generator and Union regularly and it is no coincidence that Trevor Rabin appears on all 3 CD's. I too am of the feeling that we should not really vote on the best YES line up but just to understand and appreciate that each era of YES members contributed and in all probability extended the life of YES as a band.

By the way has there ever been a vote on the best rendition of The More We Live - Let Go. The version on Conspiracy or the version on Union. I love both of them for different reasons, I think its a great song.

So for me now, No I do not hate Union, in fact I think it's great.

Ronboy

[Buglunch]

I've never heard the Conspiracy version of 'The More We Live...' can anyone link me to this? I don't recall whether or not they played it in Vancouver Union tour ~1990-91. I think they did not. It's in my top four Yes tunes of all time. They keyboards, processing, attitude, bass and words are what do me in bigtime, especially when I play it alone on my portable CD player headphones at night watching the moon and stars and clouds scudding past the window through the trees in the creek gully outside. This creek winds about and empties into the Mill Bay estuary two blocks east where the birds hide and mate winter/early spring. Then I go down to the beach facing east under the stars and when the sun comes up over Washington State, Mount Baker is pink: our own Fujiyama beyond the Saanich Inlet.
>
>
I hate Unioin so much I bought it twice: Tape (locally upon release)>CD (in Bellingham, WA. 1991 on my way to San Luis Obispo for some camping and more huge chicken burritos- proper good silkscreening, unlike the cheap Canadian pressings, oy...)

[satyam]

Its not all bad but rather ironic in that the strongest songs are the Yes West/ Trevor Rabin songs, the line up and the person who is often targeted by Troopers. I thought that Miracle of Life was absolutely brilliant

[Mr Kite]

I like Union, I can listen to the whole CD and enjoy it. I think the Union tour was
the best Yes that I ever seen. Can you imagine 2 drummers, White and Bruford,
2 guitars Steve and Trevor, 2 keyboards, Rick and Tony, Chris Squire and
Jon Anderson. I went to the show that tour at the Nassau Colliseum,
met some cool Yes Fans before the show at the bar-restaurant that is right on the premises and could not believe the energy at that show. That is one day I'll never forget! Another thing, just that Yes got together and did this should be a lesson for everyone. That's what puts Yes in a catagory all by themself.

[franknet]

UNION
YES
I like it... but of course...they could all sit in room and hum and I would probably like it
Is it all great...no
Is it all YES...yes
I saw the opening night of the tour in Pensacola...all those great musicians on stage at once.... wow
It’s better than OYE thought but I like some of that too
Any way it made sense to someone at the time to get them all together
Bet your bottom dollar it won't happen again but I got to see it!
It was, as Jon likes to say "a special time”

[SonicDeath10]

Its not all bad but rather ironic in that the strongest songs are the Yes West/ Trevor Rabin songs, the line up and the person who is often targeted by Troopers. I thought that Miracle of Life was absolutely brilliant
yeah, the horrible production and studio musicians really only mar the ABWH stuff. Trevor kept that stuff off their songs, to his credit.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Its not all bad but rather ironic in that the strongest songs are the Yes West/ Trevor Rabin songs, the line up and the person who is often targeted by Troopers. I thought that Miracle of Life was absolutely brilliant
That's your opinion. I'm continually surprised by how many people proclaim 'MoL' as brilliant.

I normally program the disc to play only the ABWH tracks because I really don't like the West stuff on this particular disc. I do enjoy "More We Live", but I don't like the other three.

And that's not meant as a slam against Trevor or anything; I don't dislike Trevor.

[Buglunch]

(Trevor should be the South, really.)
It's because the stuff that's heavily Rabinized isn't proper Yes (and Trevor is a great all-round musician) : lots of his ideas existed before joining Yes and his movie work shows he can run almost the whole show.
And the "little people" helpers are credited little or not at all, especially bassists.
______________________________________
I loved the show itself in Vancouver: a chance to see Rick and Tony again and Bill Bruford. Chris was fabulous and the VHS tape covering that tour explained much; the album is a hodge-podge of polished and unpolished gems.
More control was needed over production and keyboard striping of the East tracks. The East writing is less aggressive and metallized; the West is technically flashier and crystalline - Trev ideas/words were needed at the time and a very different complement to the East.
---
My two point seven Canuck cents.
(don't let Yoko join the band! :D )
------ note my soloSludge© icon for this reply.... :sneaky:

[BigGenerator]

It should have been like that for every album.
All the members together,the old members and the 'new' ones.All in one album.
All the Yes members could be in the same albums,I don't see the problem for that to happen.This is kind of sad to know that there are antagonisms/hate between some members.Each member has the right to be involved in each yes album,including Rabin,Kaye or Bruford.The more people involved,the more songs,the better.
If there are 2 or 3 guitarists and 2 or 3 keyboards in YES,why not be that way.They don' t have to play in each song all together;they can do like they did in 'Union',that is one song by 3-4-5 members,another song by another 3,4..members.
And it's sad to read what I often read about some members of YES (esp Rabin,Kaye) or some albums such as Big Generator,from so called fans of YES/purists of YES.Who are they to have the right to criticize ?

Union is a very good album.A mixture of 80's Yes and 70's Yes.It is a proof that all the members of YES can join in one very good album.

[YepMan]

I liked Union quite a bit when it came out, but it is a rather schizophrenic album. Throwing together ABWH and YesWest tracks just didn't make for a cohesive whole. It isn't quite as bad as Bruford or Wakeman have alluded to, but it certainly isn't the shining moment it could have been. As I understand it, this is a result of time strictures, in that the ABWH tracks in particular could not be finished by the band in time for the album's release, which led to the keyboard overdubs which have bothered Wakeman since then. I have to say, though, that I was led more toward the ABWH than the YesWest tracks; that's just the way my mind works.

It would be nice for a true Yes w/alumni blowout, if it were possible. However, just the sheer logistics of such a project would seem to render it impossible. A nice idea would be a Yes album with contributions from past members, especially Banks, Kaye, Bruford, Moraz and Rabin.

[allgoodyes]

The politics behind the making of "Union" was unknown to me when I first heard the album in 1991. What was important to me at that time was that Yes had released a very enjoyable album with totally new material on it for the first time in years.

While I now find it somewhat disconcerting to learn that some members of Yes pan "Union" due to overdubbing and added parts during post-production, it is still my view that most of the songs on this album are unique and provide a fine listening experience.

[Buglunch]

It should have been like that for every album.
All the members together,the old members and the 'new' ones.All in one album.
All the Yes members could be in the same albums,I don't see the problem for that to happen.This is kind of sad to know that there are antagonisms/hate between some members.Each member has the right to be involved in each yes album,including Rabin,Kaye or Bruford.The more people involved,the more songs,the better.
If there are 2 or 3 guitarists and 2 or 3 keyboards in YES,why not be that way.They don' t have to play in each song all together;they can do like they did in 'Union',that is one song by 3-4-5 members,another song by another 3,4..members.
And it's sad to read what I often read about some members of YES (esp Rabin,Kaye) or some albums such as Big Generator,from so called fans of YES/purists of YES.Who are they to have the right to criticize ?

Union is a very good album.A mixture of 80's Yes and 70's Yes.It is a proof that all the members of YES can join in one very good album.

Except for things like that Sandy person playing fill-in keys below the stage for the 90125 tour; why wasn't another keyplayer used and credited onstage?
That's not very honest and Yessy by tradition.
I'd sure like to see more unreleased Moraz Yestracks.

[Scooty]

Union is a very good album.A mixture of 80's Yes and 70's Yes.It is a proof that all the members of YES can join in one very good album.

No, its not...and lets remember..they scotch taped this pitiful album together to cash in..nothing more.

But the tour WAS PHENOMENAL!!

[Buglunch]

Who cashed in? Rick was (and is, I bet) displeased with the way they striped his data and not sounds onto East tracks via MIDI.

By the way, who made the dark, swoopyshiny bass Chris plays in 'Turn of the Century' San Luis Obispo DVD ~1996? He stands in darkness most of the song, rats. And it's not a great resvid: can't see any logo, machineheadwards.

[gt76yesman]

NO. I think it is very unique. Has some cool songs.

[SonicDeath10]

Who cashed in? Rick was (and is, I bet) displeased with the way they striped his data and not sounds onto East tracks via MIDI.

By the way, who made the dark, swoopyshiny bass Chris plays in 'Turn of the Century' San Luis Obispo DVD ~1996? He stands in darkness most of the song, rats. And it's not a great resvid: can't see any logo, machineheadwards.
his parts are midi? no wonder.

[Buglunch]

Yup: he kicked himself virtually for not sending in sound instead of MIDI files.
Interviews.
Keyboard Magazine, circa 1994, I think.

[SonicDeath10]

yuck no wonder his parts sound so icky.

[Bluetailfly]

I listen to it once in a while and there are some tracks I like if I am in the right mood, like Lift Me Up.

[YepMan]

No, its not...and lets remember..they scotch taped this pitiful album together to cash in..nothing more.

But the tour WAS PHENOMENAL!!
Pitiful? I wouldn't go that far. The album was rushed in order to have it out for the tour, but that has happened to countless bands of varying degrees of competence. I think that Union was well-intentioned, but just didn't gel.

[Buglunch]

In video-game developers' parlance the slangish is "crunchtime" : everybody is stressed and product suffers and then you get to go on the road to press the flesh and press the press.
And the press have always pressed back hard on proggers for decades; it's wearing and frustrating even for dinky outfits like my old band.

"The More We Live; Let Go"