Nitpicker asking about side three... [Archive]

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chergonblues

12-03-2008, 01:35 PM

So, is it
a) The Ancient/Giants Under The Sun
b) 'The Ancient': Giants Under The Sun
c) The Ancient (Giants Under The Sun)
d) "The Ancient" - Giants Under The Sun
or a combination of some of those?

I know it doesn't really make a difference, but in this age of digital music files, iTunes, last.fm etc. it seems to matter for some... Ahem.
On the album sleeve (I've got the German edition) it's 'The Ancient' Giants Under The Sun, on the label it's just The Ancient. On Rhino's re-release cd it's The Ancient Giants Under The Sun...

Seems all possible variations are being used. Is there a definitive official version?

(Yes, I'm planning on getting a life.)

islandsofarabia

12-03-2008, 01:51 PM

So, is it
a) The Ancient/Giants Under The Sun
b) 'The Ancient': Giants Under The Sun
c) The Ancient (Giants Under The Sun)
d) "The Ancient" - Giants Under The Sun
or a combination of some of those?

Seems all possible variations are being used. Is there a definitive official version?

(Yes, I'm planning on getting a life.)

First of all, this is the best question ever asked.

Now, on to the analysis portion of this post.

I'll say (b).

If that's what the sleeve said, that's pretty official.
Also yahoo.com says that too, and I don't think they would want to upset topographic music, inc.
http://music.yahoo.com/track/895635
To me, it also feels the most right according to the emphasis with which Jon Anderson introduces these songs live.

And regarding (c), parentheses just don't do the song justice.

And as regards (a), a forward slash would sort of mean two separate songs on a single, like 'whole lotta love/livin lovin maid.' and this song isn't like that...it wouldn't even fit on a 45.

And as far as (d), double quotes followed by a dash? what the heck would that mean? that someone named "Mr. Giants Under the Sun" said "the ancient"? yes, probably. but no.

Lifeseeker66

12-03-2008, 01:56 PM

So, is it
a) The Ancient/Giants Under The Sun
b) 'The Ancient': Giants Under The Sun
c) The Ancient (Giants Under The Sun)
d) "The Ancient" - Giants Under The Sun
or a combination of some of those?

I know it doesn't really make a difference, but in this age of digital music files, iTunes, last.fm etc. it seems to matter for some... Ahem.
On the album sleeve (I've got the German edition) it's 'The Ancient' Giants Under The Sun, on the label it's just The Ancient. On Rhino's re-release cd it's The Ancient Giants Under The Sun...

Seems all possible variations are being used. Is there a definitive official version?

(Yes, I'm planning on getting a life.)

I'm going with "c". And that's my.... final answer.

pianozach

12-03-2008, 04:59 PM

You're not the only one who frets over data accuracy.

I've got a Digitally Remastered by Joe Gastwirt at Ocean View Digital version. As far as memory serves, the insert appears very accurate, with complete lyrics and full color photos.

On both the CD and the booklet the track is listed as 'THE ANCIENT' Giants Under The Sun, which is strange, since it's the only track that has subquotes around the Primary Title. There is no dash nor colon following the Primary Title.

I have the original LP boxed up in the garage, and I'm not going there, even for you. :aaa[1]:

islandsofarabia

12-03-2008, 05:36 PM

(Yes, I'm planning on getting a life.)
I'm going with "c". And that's my.... final answer.

In the spirit of both of these themes (click to view):

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.jpg)

Wakey's #1 Fan

12-03-2008, 05:37 PM

In the spirit of both of these themes (click to view):

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.jpg)
:dog:

chergonblues

12-03-2008, 06:16 PM

the track is listed as 'THE ANCIENT' Giants Under The Sun, which is strange, since it's the only track that has subquotes around the Primary Title
Noticed the same when first listened to this album from library's remaster copy. But on the LP sleeve, the subquotes are there as well.

I have the original LP boxed up in the garage,
You're cruel. :eek:
Mine's in the shelf, and it says
'The Ancient'
Giants Under The Sun
, but then there's the line feed in print, which is easy to translate as () or : or / or even -.

In the spirit of both of these themes (click to view):

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.jpg)

Hey, I could consider getting a TV just for that.
Did he phone-a-friend? :lmao:

cinderella

12-03-2008, 06:20 PM

In the spirit of both of these themes (click to view):

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/5545/ancientmillionairelx7.jpg)

That's brilliant! LOL! :winknudge

I'll go with C.

cinderella

12-03-2008, 06:24 PM

Too bad my albums are in storage. I'd get the original release of Tales (on vinyl) and check the name on it.

That's the one I'd go by.

Lifeseeker66

12-03-2008, 06:45 PM

AmyK

12-03-2008, 11:26 PM

Melissa

12-04-2008, 08:40 AM

I use C when I type out Tales.
But then again, sometimes I use a dash!
Exact Audio Copy rips with a dash.

CloseToTheHedge

12-05-2008, 11:03 AM

You're not the only one who fusses about these things! Don't worry. This is in fact one of a few reasons why I still haven't scrobbled TFTO in any form...

For me, if it's to be scrobbled on last.fm I generally try to go with the most scrobbled variant - something like The Ancient has so few total scrobbles because it's gone under so many names, so I try to push up the most popular one.

Having said that, in cases where the most popular variant is clearly wrong, I go with the next most popular and most acceptable.

Currently on last.fm there's:
The Ancient - Giants Under the Sun - 16
The Ancient (Giants Under The Sun) - 12
The Ancient / Giants Under The Sun - 10
The Ancient Giants Under the Sun - 10
'The Ancient' (Giants Under The Sun) - 9
The Ancient/Giants Under The Sun - 5
(62 scrobbles in total! Imagine how much higher it could be!!@#$)

I would personally go with #2, (c) among your choices.
If I didn't care about last.fm, then I'd just go with what was on the vinyl, but I do, so there.

And for entirely unrelated reasons, I think the brackets look so much better than the slash and the apostrophes. Less likely to be mangled by different fonts. :D Now, where's this life you speak of getting? I'd like to know where you aquire your supplies.

chergonblues

12-05-2008, 02:17 PM

For me, if it's to be scrobbled on last.fm I generally try to go with the most scrobbled variant
Could it be that the majority is wrong..? Just look at what they've done to CttE!!! : http://www.last.fm/music/Yes/Close+to+the+edge
And when it comes to tagging songs, many people seem to get their track info automatically from Gracenote and don't bother checking it. E.g. The Fish (Shindleria Praematurus), The Clap, etc..
Admittedly, though, there are often "typos" on the cd cover tracklistings too, especially with re-releases... And naming/numbering classical music movements is a nightmare in itself... Everyone knows which one you mean, but you type one single character differently and the computer thinks it's another track...

At last.fm I'm using 'The Ancient' (Giants Under The Sun) because I take (Giants...) to be a kind of a subtitle, and on the LP (all hail king vinyl :bowdown:) the single quotation marks/apostrophes for 'The Ancient' are there. For reasons that remain unclear for me.

And for entirely unrelated reasons, I think the brackets look so much better than the slash Agreed.

Now, where's this life you speak of getting? I'd like to know where you aquire your supplies.
Oh, :hearts:England:hearts: does it for me, mostly. First you work like a small animal for a few months (I currently have 3 jobs+studies) to get the finances sorted, then you take a couple of weeks off (April-May-June) and hit the Lakes (or anywhere, really, as long as it's not London).
Make sure you time your route with Asia/Howe/HoweJr./Yes's tour dates, and suddely you realize you not only have a life, but it's a beautiful one and sounds great. :winknudge
You're free to copy the idea :razz:

chergonblues

12-05-2008, 02:48 PM

'THE ANCIENT' GIANTS UNDER THE SUN
This is from the official 1973 release on vinyl.

Wouldn't that make it also
- THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD DANCE OF THE DAWN
- THE REMEMBERING HIGH THE MEMORY and
- RITUAL NOUS SOMMES DU SOLEIL ?
The "problem" is, how to show the line feed if you have to write the title on the same line?
It would be easier to call them just The Revealing Science of God, The Remembering, 'The Ancient' and Ritual (btw, why is it not The Ritual?), but the subtitles, if they can be called that, are part of the name too.

To understand why it is written this way the implications are that the giants are with us here today.
[...]hence they are not just 'ancient'. Hence the appearance in subquotes.
I'm not a native speaker of English, and I may have completely misunderstood you now, but shouldn't it in that case be The 'Ancient' Giants Under The Sun, or 'The Ancients' (/) Giants Under The Sun? Or does 'The Ancient' refer to the event/era rather than the giants? I have to admit I haven't yet gotten really into analyzing yeslyrics, it's more about the phonetic beauty for me...

...and what's the meaning of life? What have I started... :crazy: I guess when you study languages it's easy to get stuck on words and punctuation...

islandsofarabia

12-05-2008, 03:34 PM

(62 scrobbles in total! Imagine how much higher it could be!!@#$)

I guess in the world of last.fm, 62 is a really low number of scrobbles compared to a Matchbox 20 song or something.

You're right...we need to raise the profile of this song. For me it is light years ahead of anything else any other band including Yes has ever recorded, before or since. Maybe there should be a "Scrobble The Ancient!" thread.

Has anyone scrobbled "Giants Under The Sun (Studio Run Through)"? Now those would be my kinda people.

chergonblues

12-05-2008, 04:54 PM

(62 scrobbles in total! Imagine how much higher it could be!!@#$)

I think that's the amount of individual listeners, not scrobbles..?
In the album listing it shows 32765 plays / 3987 listeners for Tales.
More than for Talk, yay.

Earl Grey

12-05-2008, 05:09 PM

'THE ANCIENT' GIANTS UNDER THE SUN

This is from the official 1973 release on vinyl.

To understand why it is written this way the implications are that the giants are with us here today. It has nothing to do with stature, but spiritual and intellectual aptitude, specifially "Knowledge and magic of the source",. "The soul has so many lifetimes" Ref: Footprints on KTA 2, they have reincarnated and here today as well, hence they are not just 'ancient'. Hence the appearance in subquotes.

I have the original vinyl release sitting here on my lap (A Roger Dean autograph embellishing the front cover, no less!).

The inner gate-fold reads,

'THE ANCIENT'
GIANTS UNDER THE SUN

The lp label simply reads: THE ANCIENT

...which is probably truncated as such, so as not to crowd-out the graphics.

I'm going with the full title, on the gate-fold, as the definitive title, just because I like it!

eegee:yesbird:

AmyK

12-05-2008, 10:14 PM

Wouldn't that make it also
- THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD DANCE OF THE DAWN
- THE REMEMBERING HIGH THE MEMORY and
- RITUAL NOUS SOMMES DU SOLEIL ?
The "problem" is, how to show the line feed if you have to write the title on the same line?
It would be easier to call them just The Revealing Science of God, The Remembering, 'The Ancient' and Ritual (btw, why is it not The Ritual?), but the subtitles, if they can be called that, are part of the name too.

I'm not a native speaker of English, and I may have completely misunderstood you now, but shouldn't it in that case be The 'Ancient' Giants Under The Sun, or 'The Ancients' (/) Giants Under The Sun? Or does 'The Ancient' refer to the event/era rather than the giants? I have to admit I haven't yet gotten really into analyzing yeslyrics, it's more about the phonetic beauty for me...

...and what's the meaning of life? What have I started... :crazy: I guess when you study languages it's easy to get stuck on words and punctuation...

Each of these titles of individual movements do not follow a standard convention for naming.

The shortened titles are what the movements are usually called by. In fact The Revealing Science of God is shortened to RSOG by many fans.
I've felt that 'Ancient' modifies Giants, but 'The Ancient' is free to stand on its own as the shortened title. The we must remember that Jon is a wordsmith and an artist. He is free to violate the rules of punctuation and grammar for effect. Creating confusion can be an intent and a result, leading us to the heart of the song.
Say for instance we had a title: 'The Weird' Language of Yesfans on the Thread. It could be shortened to "The Weird", and probably would, since no acronym or punctuation would create a dividing line.
Welcome to the confusing and fun world that is the English language :)

CloseToTheHedge

12-05-2008, 11:58 PM

I think that's the amount of individual listeners, not scrobbles..?
In the album listing it shows 32765 plays / 3987 listeners for Tales.
More than for Talk, yay.

Whoops, that's what I meant. I still get everything mixed up when I try to talk about it despite using last.fm for so long now.

Nevertheless, it's the number that matters in the "ranking" of songs... As it is with other artists that have "ambiguous" titles, the songs would be higher up (and crappier songs with uniform spelling may be lower down) if everyone could agree to give them the same title. Unfortunately, last.fm still hasn't come up with a way to let people merge the results together...

Nothing short of a miracle, however, will knock OOALH down from #1 at 23,777 listeners within the last 6 months. (Roundabout only managed 16,305)
Yet despite the varying ways to title Close to the Edge (once you include the movement names, it gets wacky) - "Close to the Edge" alone is #7 at 10,026 listeners within the last 6 months. That's how loved it is. What is a travesty is that Relayer tracks are so low... somebody shut me up before I start killing people in the name of Sound Chaser.

Okay okay, I'm off to go get a life and meet someone right now.

BrianD

12-06-2008, 02:27 AM

Before Tales was released this is how Atlantic Records described Side 3 for pre-sales in October 1973 (remember it was released in Jan '74 in the US, Nov 73 in the UK)

The Ancient 18:34 Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White

slide guitar segment
Giants Under The Sun
instrumental segment
guitar solo
Leaves Of Green

So that was their interpretation of it!

Its also interesting to see how they described the other sides

The Revealing 20:27 Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White

Dance Of The Dawn
For This Moment
Science Of God
Glory To Sons
What Happened To This Song

The Remembering 20:38 Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White

High The Memory
forgotten yesterdays
relayer
The Topographic Ocean
rainbows

The Ritual 21:35 Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White

introduction
Life Seems Like A Fight
bass segment
percussion ensemble
Nous Sommes Du Soleil

I guess this was put together by a confused Atlantic Executive who couldn't make sense of a double album with 4 tracks

RickyG

12-06-2008, 07:08 PM

Interesting Brian, where did you get this?

Though it seems to be too knowledgeable, the sectional subtitles make too much sense for a confused Atlantic Executive! I'd think that maybe this is what YES or Brian Lane gave an unknowing Atlantic executive to appease and placate the suits... so they'd think there was a "suite of songs" on each side.

BrianD

12-06-2008, 08:19 PM