Best Postwar British Prime Minister?

[illusion]

Here is a quick poll. This is inspired by Altres response to my post on another thread where the ever heated topic of Maggie Thatcher came up, and I mentioned that I respected her but respected plenty of other PMs too.

I've limited it to postwar as it's my favourite bit of history and they're all in relatively recent memory, and it is very hard to compare Attlee with Blair, nevermind Disraeli or Walpole!

You might notice the exclusion of a certain Winston Churchill. I've excluded him despite his second (technically third before FTB pulls me up on it!) term being in the early 50s. I think it is difficult to judge Churchill independent of WW2 and therefore he isn't included in the poll.

Anyone of any nationality is welcome to vote. Also "best" is a very subjective term; while I doubt we will have many Eden fans, if you can justify it in your own mind, and briefly here, that is what is important!

[Altres]

Not exactly much to choose from, is there? :D

Clement Atlee. But, in a world where John Smith had lived, a very different answer may have been in the offing.

Brian

[Full Tilt Boogie]

You might notice the exclusion of a certain Winston Churchill. I've excluded him despite his second (technically third before FTB pulls me up on it!) term being in the early 50s. I think it is difficult to judge Churchill independent of WW2 and therefore he isn't included in the poll.

Actually, it's not all that hard to précis Churchill's stint as 'peacetime' PM (1951 to '55) as "not very good at all" - but I understand why you've left him out so that voters don't rush to judge based on his unity gov't during the War years.

[illusion]

Actually, it's not all that hard to précis Churchill's stint as 'peacetime' PM (1951 to '55) as "not very good at all" - but I understand why you've left him out so that voters don't rush to judge based on his unity gov't during the War years.

Yes; that is pretty much what I am getting at. I suppose technically it is a "British PM who was first in power after 1945" poll!

Must admit, when I looked at that list after I'd typed it I realised how much more interesting pre-WW2 British history is!

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Not exactly much to choose from, is there? :D

Clement Atlee.


"He's a modest man, with a great deal about which to be modest..."


...But, in a world where John Smith had lived, a very different answer may have been in the offing.

Aye, there is a school of thought that, had he lived, Smith would have been the closest thing we ever got "Butskillism".

And, had he become PM, he would have caused a constitutional "moment" - as he was Catholic - and Catholics, under the British Constitution and the Act of Union (1707) and Act of Succession (1534) are, by Law, barred & prevented from becoming Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

[Altres]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Altres http://www.yesfans.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.yesfans.com/showthread.php?p=1566306#post1566306)
Not exactly much to choose from, is there? :D

Clement Atlee.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Winston Churchill on Atlee
"He's a modest man, with a great deal about which to be modest..."

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

You have to remember I am a Dundonian, and my Grandmother was in the crowd that evicted him out of the city. Churchill later stated he "hoped grass would grow over the streets of Dundee". (http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/output/2006/07/11/story8535267t0.shtm)

Brian

[True Believer]

Maggie. She had more balls than any of 'em.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

You have to remember I am a Dundonian, and my Grandmother was in the crowd that evicted him out of the city. Churchill later stated he "hoped grass would grow over the streets of Dundee". (http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/output/2006/07/11/story8535267t0.shtm)

No doubt mate - but Atlee was apt to steal Churchill's ideas - a home for the Jews (Palestine), which Churchill first voiced in 1917; The NHS, which Churchill suggested in 1938, and then sponsored a bill through the House in 1942 (whilst running a War); - indeed virtually the ones/ideas/bills which Churchill managed to deliver in his own right were the 1944 Education Act, and the Town & Country Planning act (1955) which introduced Green Belts to the nation - although I will give Atlee his due on introducing the first national park in the UK.

[Altres]

Churchill was also the first person to gas the Kurds.

"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."

[YESMAN90125]

I don't live in England but I allways admired Mrs Thatcher
that's one tough Lady

[RickyG]

I don't live in England but I allways admired Mrs Thatcher
that's one tough Lady

You must be joking?

Thatcher=Evil>Nixonx2

The Gestapo Dragon Lady
Favorite tool of political influence: physically beating people into submission.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Churchill was also the first person to gas the Kurds.

"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."

And in 1917, both sides were using poison gas - something introduced by the Germans in WW1.

And, in the interest of context of where and when it was used, in 1917, The British Empire had just beaten the Ottoman Empire - with the Kurds in Iraq putting up particularly stiff resistance; so as a measure to quell the rebellion, once a colonial gov't had been established, and to reduce any further UK & Imperial loses (whom were needed on all other fronts), as a last resort, gas was used.

And it wasn't Churchill's decision to do so, as he was wasn't in a position to mandate its use: In May 1917, David Lloyd George, who had replaced Asquith as Prime Minister, recalled Churchill to the cabinet as Minister of munitions. For the rest of the war, Churchill directed industrial support of the war effort by organizing the national economy for production of war materials.

At age 43, after World War I ended, Churchill was appointed to the War Office and then to the Colonial Office.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

You must be joking?

Thatcher=Evil>Nixonx2

The Gestapo Dragon Lady
Favorite tool of political influence: physically beating people into submission.

With respect Ricky, you're talking out of your hat there.

You have no idea what state this country was in, or why, when she took over in '79. If you want an rationale debate on it, more than happy to oblige you.

Just one request though, if we're gonna have it, can we please leave the usual bumper-sticker tag lines in the changing room and do it properly?

[Altres]

Churchill was both a great leader, and a crap one. Atlee did indeed take a great deal, but I guess he ran with them.

Brian

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Churchill was both a great leader, and a crap one. Atlee did indeed take a great deal, but I guess he ran with them.

Brian

No question there mate - he [Atlee] was running on empty with a country at the point of post-war bankruptcy and most of its major cities mostly in ruins. He was Labour's John Major, only with less personality, if that's at all possible.

[RickyG]

With respect Ricky, you're talking out of your hat there.

You have no idea what state this country was in, or why, when she took over in '79. If you want an rationale debate on it, more than happy to oblige you.

Just one request though, if we're gonna have it, can we please leave the usual bumper-sticker tag lines in the changing room and do it properly?

With all due respect Bren, you can play your intellectual dominance games with someone else tonight. I'm sure you will find others who are interested. I'm really not interested in another fight around here tonight, or this week, or this month. It doesn't matter what topic is debated, you are going to be sure to mow down anyone you perceive as an opponent with your superior sense of biting sarcasm and undercutting wit.

If I wasn't talking out of my hat, I'd take it off in deference to you, because you are really quite good at it.

But really, how would you even know if I'm wearing a hat or have one in my hand, much less talking out of it?
See, I'm also not interested in "debating" someone who prefers to start from a position of condescending superiority.
I'm really just way too tired of it.
And you have no idea what I know.

Hey, I like a good bumper sticker tag line.
Why don't we debate with just bumper sticker tag lines only?

Additionally, why would I even think of debating someone who doesn't have the cajones to venture forth an educated guess at what Kali Ma Vi Ca Ka Su means??? :xolicon42: :sneaky:

Peace mate, over and out. :Peace!:

[Full Tilt Boogie]

From this:


You must be joking?

Thatcher=Evil>Nixonx2

The Gestapo Dragon Lady
Favorite tool of political influence: physically beating people into submission.

To this:



With all due respect Bren, you can play your intellectual dominance games with someone else tonight. I'm sure you will find others who are interested. I'm really not interested in another fight around here tonight, or this week, or this month. It doesn't matter what topic is debated, you are going to be sure to mow down anyone you perceive as an opponent with your superior sense of biting sarcasm and undercutting wit.

If I wasn't talking out of my hat, I'd take it off in deference to you, because you are really quite good at it.

But really, how would you even know if I'm wearing a hat or have one in my hand, much less talking out of it?
See, I'm also not interested in "debating" someone who prefers to start from a position of condescending superiority.
I'm really just way too tired of it.
And you have no idea what I know.

Hey, I like a good bumper sticker tag line.
Why don't we debate with just bumper sticker tag lines only?

Additionally, why would I even think of debating someone who doesn't have the cajones to venture forth an educated guess at what Kali Ma Vi Ca Ka Su means??? :xolicon42: :sneaky:

Peace mate, over and out. :Peace!:

I'm sure there was a point somewhere in the above just dying to get out mate ;)

All I asked you to do was back up your unsupported (certainly by nothing resembling to fact) assertions on-topic.

OK, so I was asking too much, that's all you had to say mate.

[bbb]

Anyone but Thatcher.

[True Believer]

Anyone but Thatcher.
Wot? Even 'Arald Bloody Wilson?

[illusion]

Well she's got 60% of the vote so far!

[BrianD]

Its a pretty sad and sorry bunch when you actually look and think about the list

[True Believer]

Yep, Maggie's the only one with any guts in that lot.

[Steve Mahoney]

I voted Maggie.

[bbb]

'Thatcher, Thatcher -milk snatcher'-she got off to a flying start there.

De-mutualising all the building societies turned out to be a top-notch idea didn't it?

Nye Bevan was never PM but gets my vote for best post-war politician for establishing the NHS.

[moonchild]

I'll have to go with Edward Heath. We have the same last name and when I was 14 or so I wrote him a letter to #10 Downing sending my congrats (from a colonial)... and he wrote me back. Thats pretty special in my book.

[illusion]

I'll have to go with Edward Heath. We have the same last name and when I was 14 or so I wrote him a letter to #10 Downing sending my congrats (from a colonial)... and he wrote me back. Thats pretty special in my book.

That is a great story!

I think the best thing that Heath did was take the UK into the European Economic Community (now called the European Union).

[flep]

The sooner thatcher dies so i can dance and spit on her grave the better.

That woman was (is) pure evil.

She single handedly destroyed the coal mining business in this country through sheer spite. She took us into a war against argentina that nobody wanted. She even planned to nuke the city of cordoba if the war started to go against her.

I despise that woman and everything she stood for with every fibre of my body.

She sold off this countries assetts, gas, electricity,oil and the railways to the highest bidder and her and her right wing fascists profitted from every penny. Overnight after her election she cut the highest rate of tax from 60% to 40% so giving all the rich cronies a 50 percent rise in pay. And who paid for it...the working class by losing their jobs. She presided over the me now society of the 80's. When she resigned was one of the happiest days of my life, now if she would just go ahead and die i would feel far happier.

Hopefully she won't be breathing for much longer

I know this would seem like totally the opposite of what I am normally like on Yesfans and it is. But if one subject(person) gets my hackles to rise its thatcher.

May she rot in hell.

[flep]

I'll probably get banned for that

[bbb]

I can still vivdly remember her on Blue Peter explaining, during their Cambodia appeal, that her government were dealing with the nice, reasonable wing of the Khmer Rouge...I think we were training them in how to use land-mines at the time.

[flep]

I had this on my bedroom wall when I was younger

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa273/flep46/images1.jpg

[Altres]

I'll probably get banned for that
I think you should be knighted for it.

Brian

[illusion]

And here's me thinking she's appropriate material for an avatar!

[Altres]

And here's me thinking she's appropriate material for an avatar!
You'd genuinely had to have lived under her hatred of all things decent and good to appreciate the depths of my hatred for the woman. Her son's a nice guy too. In the words of Frankie Boyle, "why spend £20 million on a state funeral? Buy everyone in Scotland a shovel and we can dig a hole so f*cking deep, we can hand her over in person".

Brian

[neilius]

Margaret Thatcher, wonder woman!

[InverYes]

Margaret Thatcher, wonder woman!

Only because she made you wonder if she actually was a woman.

[Altres]

http://www.morethings.com/images/margaret_thatcher/margaret-thatcher-8226.jpg

[neilius]

Why isn't Winston Churchill on the list?

I have'nt voted in this poll because I think all of them are a shower!

[illusion]

Why isn't Winston Churchill on the list?

I have'nt voted in this poll because I think all of them are a shower!

Because people think of him as a wartime PM. Although he had a term after the war, it's impossible for people to judge him solely on that.

Also, he'd take all the votes!

[Timmo]

I'm a damn Yankee, I've only heard of the last four.

Thatcher and Reagan are often thought of together in this country. I find it interesting how the poms are so divided over her.