Union promo-different early mixes

[Sergey Lenkov]

I founded on Wiki article about Union the following information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_(album)

"Before the final Union album was released, a preview of a sort was released by the record company to generate interest. It contains significantly different mixes of most of the ABWH group's material. This release is important because it captures these songs in a state before the producer used session musicians to reshape the songs. These early mixes are closer to the original ideas of the ABWH group (the intricate work of the rhythm section of Levin and Bruford is more noticeable on these rough mixes, where their playing is not as buried in overdubs as the final mixes on the album)".

Did anyone see this CD or heard these early mixes of Union?
Any information about this CD...
Title...
Track list...
Your impressions...
Where it could be founded....

[90125yes]

.. maybe we could have heared howe more in the mix

.. before elias got his hands on the record

... union - what a mess

[Meng]

They're on a boot called The Perfect Union.

[pianozach]

They're on a boot called The Perfect Union.

I'd love to hear it!

[Bobby Dread]

I've heard of these under the title of "Walking With The Dinosaurs" or something similar. I met a guy in Arizona who may send it to me (or maybe not). Wearing my Yes hat in Arizona made for three interesting conversations with people who recognized the logo. I'll have to e-mail the guy again. I'd love to hear that stuff. On second thought, those may have been demos of the first ABWH album. Can anyone further enlighten us?

[Meng]

I've heard of these under the title of "Walking With The Dinosaurs" or something similar. I met a guy in Arizona who may send it to me (or maybe not). Wearing my Yes hat in Arizona made for three interesting conversations with people who recognized the logo. I'll have to e-mail the guy again. I'd love to hear that stuff. On second thought, those may have been demos of the first ABWH album. Can anyone further enlighten us?
Do you mean "Hunting Like the Dinosaurs"? This was a bunch of "first drafts" intended for Dialogue, the second ABWH album. I've still got the songs in iTunes but the CD disintegrated on me!

[Meng]

I'd love to hear it!
I could do you some mp3s if it's not against forum rules.

[Sergey Lenkov]

Thank you, Meng for this information!!!:appl[1]:

Tell, please, about your impressions from these early mixes.
Elias really spoiled them or not?

[Meng]

Thank you, Meng for this information!!!:appl[1]:

Tell, please, about your impressions from these early mixes.
Elias really spoiled them or not?
Here's a scan of the back cover (on Yann Clochec's site):
http://yclochec8.free.fr/PerfectUnion4.jpg (http://yclochec8.free.fr/PerfectUnion4.jpg)

The information listed below the track listing is pretty accurate I think (given the less-than-legit nature of this CD). I don't have the CD to hand and it's been a while since I played it, but most of Elias' influence is clearly on CD 1 (the version of I Would Have Waited is the same as on the In A Word boxset).

Whether Elias spoiled them or not is very subjective - I was not keen on his production on Union personally.

Whether it's worth having these tracks or not is also subjective. I really like hearing alternate versions and "first drafts", things that are embryonic and unpolished - things we were never meant to hear. But that's just me! Let's just say that I was happy to find this back in pre-Internet days.

[Sergey Lenkov]

Thank you for your answer.
I could explain why I became interested in it.
I read interviews with Jimmy Haun
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm
and Jonathan Elias
http://www.bondegezou.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm
And it's obvoius, that members of Yes wasn't in their best form in 1990-1991. It was a kind of "Let It Be" thing for The Beatles.
After that I stated to value "Union" even more.
First of all, I think each normal fan would choose to have re-mixed, overdubbed etc. album than not to have one at all.
I started to look on it as on analogue of Alan Parsons Project - "Jon Anderson project" - different musicians within one consept of sound.
That's why early mixes became very interesting for me...
Were Elias and Jon right in their decision?
Anyway, it's interesting to compare both versions.

[Meng]

Were Elias and Jon right in their decision?
It's a mess of an album to be sure, despite some decent songs. Bruford and Wakeman both hate it - probably Howe as well apart from Masquerade. I remember first checking out the CD sleeve and being very disappointed that it wasn't an 8-man Yes album, but an oil-and-water mix of two different bands.

Other than being the catalyst for a wonderful tour, a large part of me wishes it had never been released.

[ham]

An what did El Wako call it? Onion......
Hmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!
Och the waste...

[SilverShoes]

It's a mess of an album to be sure, despite some decent songs. Bruford and Wakeman both hate it - probably Howe as well apart from Masquerade. I remember first checking out the CD sleeve and being very disappointed that it wasn't an 8-man Yes album, but an oil-and-water mix of two different bands..

And to make it even worse, there's like a million session players. As I understand, Howe didn't really play on most of the ABWH tracks, and apparently, neither did Wakeman.

I for one refuse to buy the idea that Howe was so "washed up" at the time that he needed some studio rat deputizing for him. That just sounds like another instance of a record producer trying to get the album done quickly, without regard to the end result. I've heard one story that apparently Howe did a lot of arguing with Elias. So what? From what I gather, EVERYBODY argues with their producer. When you're making music, some geek that the label hired comes in and says "THIS is how we're going to do the record". Especially when you're talking about a legendary band like Yes, of course they're gonna with the nobody record producer.

And my apologies to anyone offended by my remarks about Jonathan Elias, but I'm unaware of anything he's produced that makes him anything more than just another dime a dozen record producer geek. He may have produced a bunch of hit records at one time or another, but so what? That doesn't make him anybody important in the grand scheme of things. That just makes him a guy who jumped on a bandwagon and got lucky enough to work on a couple hit singles.

Oh, and his comments about how "Yes is no longer relevant, and I'm only interested in working with relevant artists these days" was pretty insulting. Especially when he started listing some of the people he has worked with recently.

[VentureRG]

A "Let it Be Naked" type release of Union would be very cool, in the form of a Rhino reissue with bonus tracks, etc. Liklihood is nil though.

[Sergey Lenkov]

Well, guys, let's be objecive.
It was the last record of Yes which hitted the charts in the UK and the USA. Majority of listeners voted for Union.
Of course I know the opinion by Rick - but it is opinion from inside of the band.
I'm having my own opinion of the listener.
After "Union" followed "Talk" (which was written, produced and recorded mainly by Trevor Rabin), "Open Your Eyes" (listen to keyboards on this album - it's better to have 10 session players and 3 producers:) - IMHO), I don't know your opinion about new tracks on "Keys..." - I can't say that even classic-Yes sounding long tracks here are much impressive. After that followed "The Ladder" - well, some tracks are not bad, and "Magnification".
I saw Yes live in Moscow in 2001 with Magnification songs - that was incredible.
But after that why all critics is centered on "Union"?
Why Igor Khoroshev imitating Rick, Billy Sherwood playing so so, or, as example, orchestra playing instead of Rick, Trevor Horn imitating Jon are better than 10 session musicians doing the same things on "Union"?
Just think of it.
I'm trying to understand music by Yes better - that's why I started this thread. Of course, tastes are differ - each listener is having its own preferences...
Of course "Unoin Naked" - that would be interesting...
After listening to "Let It Be Naked" - I only became more sure that I like Phil Spector mixes :)
Thank you for your opinions - they were very interesting for me.
P.S. Anyway - I'm greatful for musicians for all they have done.

[Sergey Lenkov]

Live performance of "Shock to the System" in 1991 - I think it was great!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TH6m-WROGs&feature=related

[Sergey Lenkov]

Thanks, Meng, I get idea of the sound of promo-record of "Union".
Sound was less polished and more juicy. More true rock sound.
There were many chages.
I very like track "Angkor Wat". Here Rick is credited as author.
On promo you could here (I believe) him playing short ambiental piece in style of his ambient records of that time, Jon repeating "Angkor Wat" and that's all. No lyrics, no poem, only a little bit of sound effects. So I see that Jonathan Elias in reality was co-author of this album - that's why opinions of Rick, Steve were so sceptical - simply they did different record.
I understood that he tried to do a kind of polished bombastic sound, with many arrangements, sound effects...
Arista should release "Union Naked" - promo record really gives different view of the album.
Still I don't think that activity of Elias destroyed their music.
As example, for me "Union" opened the way to understand classic early albums of Yes - before their music seemed for me too sophisticated. It's like a first love for me.
I even started to think about listening to "Prayer Cycle" by Jonathan Elias;) :beerchugr: