Tales vs Illusions

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

It is very very late for me and I do not want to forget my train of thought on this subject tomorrow! LOL.

I was talking about John Coltrane and his wife in another thread and all of a sudden like a thunderclap it occurred to me that there IS an album I would want to hold up against tales for its complexity: Carlos Santanas "Illusions."

I'd like to hear anyone's input on this subject. If you have been ecclectic enough to own a copy of Illusions I'd appreciate your opinion. But soon I will give a point by point breakdown of similarities and differences of these two albums.

Tales is more than simply great epic music. It's a treasure trove of non-musical ideas to ponder and reflect on as well. Including good cover art. The thematic material covers as broad a terraine as anything I have ever heard. We have had long talks about this album in the past. But for some reason tonight I don't know why I never mentally connected these two albums.

Tales takes it's inspiration from Hindu shastric scriptures and voices itself through the progressive sound only Yes can produce. Illusions follows a more Buddhist bend and expresses itself through jazz. This is no mere jazz though. I urge everyone to have a listen and see if you find and conceptual similarites.

I have always felt that Santana is the only other active late 60s-era musician capable of matching Yes in terms of scope. Would any Yes men work with him or his percussionists? I believe the musical ideas are rich here.

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

I can see by the silence no one has heard of 'Illusions.' And well it's no wonder! I was going by memory last night. The name isn't 'Illusions' it's 'Illuminations!' Argh! Sorry. Can the mods edit the name of this thread please!

Well here's some information about Illuminations:

Released in 1974. (This tells me they were aware of Tales in the market.)

I flipped Mrs. Coltranes names around: Turiya Alice Coltrane

Featured: Tom Coster, Jules Broussard, David Holland, Prahudda Phil Browne, Armando Paraza, Jack Di Juanette
... and many more... Including James Bond on Bass (this would be the stringed instrument played with a bow) and a whole bunch of violin, cello, and viola players.

Stylistically it's as hard to describe as Tales. It's not crude 'Rock n Roll' at ALL. This is more like Moody Blues meets John Coltrane. Instead of Rick on keys we have a healthy dose of Harp music holding things together. There are stand up bass segments, and all sorts of stuff. It's very relaxing and serene.

[Imperatrix]

Haven't heard this yet, and I'm rather ashamed: as a harpist, I should be much more familiar with Alice Coltrane's work than I already am. I think this one's to be added to our purchase list (CybrKhatru and I have a long one of these!).

I would very much like to hear your point by point breakdown of the similarities and differences of those two albums! Carry on, please!

[allpurechance]

Carlos both in Santana and on his own did so much fine work in the 70's...

...and more or less since, too!

Thanks for this new_sum...it goes upon my ever -growing list!

(must have music list!)

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

Tales From Topographic Oceans vs Illuminations
Playing time: 81 - 82 minutes ------------ ~ 36 minutes
Style: Prog Rock ------------------------ Prog Fusion
Themes: Hindu Shastric Writings --------- Four elements/four angels
Lyrics: Meandering and Obscure --------- Non existent
Cover Art: Roger Dean ------------------ Angelic spirits on cover
Clarion Call: Jon's voice high above ----- Carlos' guitar high and melodic
Spirtual? : Yes -------------------------- Yes


Tales has MUCH more music and had far more time put into it in composing stages. But the parallels are striking here. I would highly recommend this to anyone who enjoys jazz without lyrics to interrupt your meditations.

[Imperatrix]

Interesting---you'd really call Illuminations prog-fusion? Given the artists you mentioned, I'd be prompted to call it world jazz-fusion.

Ah, Jack DeJohnette...my favorite drummer besides Bill Bruford. *sigh* :D

Thanks for the comparisons!

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

Interesting---you'd really call Illuminations prog-fusion? Given the artists you mentioned, I'd be prompted to call it world jazz-fusion.

Ah, Jack DeJohnette...my favorite drummer besides Bill Bruford. *sigh* :D

Thanks for the comparisons!

Well I don't know what to call it really! 'Bliss' is definitely jazz fusion. So I guess 'prog' is a misnomer.

DeJohnette really gets stuck in a back seat here. MUCH of this stuff is 'drumless.' That is to say the instruments produce their own rhythm. It floats and drifts as much as it drives. 'Bliss' picks back up with some percussion supported speed.

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

Well at your kind urging I will continue telling you about this wonderful album:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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There are no extensive liner notes to introduce this album. But at once you can tell it is very in tune with environmental consciousness. It is based upon four themes of Air, Fire (Sunlight), Water, and loosely Earth. However the track breakdown is as follows:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Guru Sri Chinmoy Aphorism<o:p></o:p>
Angel of Air<o:p></o:p>
Angel of Water<o:p></o:p>
Bliss: The Eternal Now<o:p></o:p>
Angel of Sunlight<o:p></o:p>
Illuminations<o:p></o:p>
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There really are just four segments though. Air and Water are blended into one ten minute track. So instead of Earth we have Bliss: The Eternal Now, which in a sense of TIME, is where we always live. In place we live, we walk, we play on the earth -- terra firma -- but with a view to time itself, we always dwell in the NOW. We can have no other home. Those who seek other places in time can never concentrate. They never appreciate the Bliss of TODAY and cannot find their proper sense of home.<o:p></o:p>
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I won't deny that someone was probably playing with psychoactive substances at the time. Not unlikely at all in San Fracisco in 1973-4!! Overall the feel is very wholistic and in tune with the elements. Also when you hear their guru Chinmoy you can tell Bhuddism was on everyone's tongues, and it seems that Phil Browne (standard American name...) took on the title of Prahudda. What this means someone else will have to tell me. But I think Chinmoy is the same man seen photographed on the cover of Love, Devotion, Surrender (did I forget this title too?) made with John McLaughlin. <o:p></o:p>
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The sound gently drifts in and takes you with it gently. Finally Bliss burts on your senses and becomes a wild flood of Fusion empowering you. The Fires of the sun Illunimate you. This album does not ROCK you voilently, but guides your consciousness on an elemental journey. Really pleasant and satisfying.<o:p></o:p>
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It is over all too quickly! I really wish they would have done MORE of this. Throughout this whole thing the use of the Harp is wonderful, and for some of us new, when combined with electronic jazz. The strings blend in magically. It's a beatiful idyllic world in sound here.<o:p></o:p>
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[allpurechance]

(warning-off topicality....aaaaaaaagain!)

Jack DeJohnette on the album Timeless by Jon Abercrombie with Jan Hammer...

Ohhhhhh, yes!Mmmmmmmm...

This will be played in the household within the next 48 hours...

(Ya know, once the kids go back to school after the weekend...the Mrs. returns to work Monday morning...and I have the place to myself, & can fire up some wattage @ my Bose bookshelfs...)

[allpurechance]

DeJohnette's work itself is often so gentle!I'm not sure I've ever heard a drummer who can do more with merely the brushes!

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

Yes, brushes are what you will hear on Bliss. It's a REALLY fast tempo when he comes in....

[Imperatrix]

This is great! Thanks for this thread, New Sum! :D :D :D

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

You know, the only reason I called it Prog Fusion is because it is my sincerest hope that one day Santana will get into a studio with Rick and Chris. Plus Alan or Bill, whoever has some time.... Carlos could bring in some Congo players and watch them cope with real acoustic rhythms.

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

This is great! Thanks for this thread, New Sum! :D :D :D

No problem! This album is too cool. I've been trying to talk more about Santana in the forum. I think he's an undercover Yes-man! :angel:

By the way, I AM allergic to cats but driking alleviates it... :lmao::beerchugr:

[Imperatrix]

No problem! This album is too cool. I've been trying to talk more about Santana in the forum. I think he's an undercover Yes-man! :angel:

By the way, I AM allergic to cats but driking alleviates it... :lmao::beerchugr:

:dog: :dog: :dog: :beerchugr: