Yes On Rockline [Archive] - Yesfans.com: Founded 4/01

yesindeed

07-13-2002, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Yes Oz
its been very disappointing to read the various threads and post about this radio interview. Its sounds like they missed a great opportunity to promote the tour and maybe give real fans the respect they deserve when asking questions. Of course I am giving my opinion from never having heard the interview so dont crucifiy me if I've got it wrong (and I hope I have) but for a band with the experience of Yes to handle a listening audience seems a bit crazy to carry on like an older version of "Oasis", which by all descriptions it sounds like to me.

I guess that is why I'm a bit reluctant to want to meet the group. As much as I would love to do it I would be totally devastating if they treated me the way it sounds like they treated the dj and the audiance. I have held them on such a high level for so long it would rip my heart out to find that they are not what you imagine them to be "in real life". Just IMO.

You know, I told my daughter something the other day and it applies to all of us, including me.

It is the cult of personality that runs the music biz now. And if we get caught up in the personality of the artists instead of just appreciating the music then we are bound to be dissapointed. It is Yes music that is important; not Jon or Steve or Chris or Rick etc... In the end it is only the music that we should care about, for if we care about the artists personality too much then we set ourselves up for dissapointment. I didn't like the way they behaved during the interview but that is not why I listen to Yes and pay out the bucks to go to three concerts this summer alone. It is the music and nothing else that really matters. I suspect that Jon wouldn't like me very much either. But he doesn't have to.

We can't turn these guys into things that they are not. We can only appreciate that as a unit they create things that we can appreciate and only they can do it.

The sum of Yes music in way beyond the totality of the personalities involved in the creation.

So, let them drink or smoke or whatever... I love when they play and that's enough for me.

Yes Oz

07-13-2002, 09:22 PM

Firstly......Morning Jan, Yes it was the evening when I posted that.

Secondly....yesindeed I couldn't agree more with most of your post. The music is the most important thing and yes that is why I am such a huge fan and like you fork out hard earn dollars for everything they produce. And yes your right again why shouldn't they drink and smoke what ever they want. I don't smoke but I certainly enjoy my "beverages". No harm in having fun too while on air. But the "drift" I'm getting from a lot of posts was that they were actual rude to some callers (maybe they were stupid questions.....I don't know) and this is were I draw my line. To be rude, offensive and/or disrespectful to anybody is not the way it should be (IMO). Like I said before I didn't here the interview so maybe I shouldn't even comment. But with so much "bad press" going around about the interview I couldn't resist with putting in my 2 cents worth.

YYY

07-13-2002, 10:30 PM

I've had the opportunity to hear YES interviewed Live only a few times recently and each time it's been disappointing. I missed this recent 'Rockline' but it sounds like it wasn't EVEN as interesting or as productive as the last one. I think it's ashame that they goof around so much. YES music has a times been so interesting and unique that you would hope that they would shed some light on personal lives, their process and their philosophy. Knowing how their fan base is made up of people who have followed them for years, I think they should be more cognitive of who is there audience. I enjoy listening to them have a good time but not at the expense of the host, listeners and callers. They probably missed a great opportunity to bring in new fans or those who are undecided and need to know the amazing abilty of these great musicians.

Rd92254

07-14-2002, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Original_Shifty
I've seen it as a bunch of 50 year old's, who have been working together for decades still able to have fun. They do have their serious side (just look at the music the put out in the studio). Plus, they've been rehearsing together, stuck in a room, for days.
Give these guys a break. It just seemed they were blowing off some steam.

But let me get back to my first statement. They are still able to have fun, and when that is over, so is our group.

Oh, and I'm glad to hear Alan and Steve (especially Steve) and Jon lauging and carrying on. It makes them seem more human from their stage persona's.

Well, they picked the wrong time to do. Yes gets very little national press...this was a great opportunity to present themselves at the professional level we know them at. They can laugh and blow of steam all they want on their own time...but they wouldn't even answer the DJs final couple of questions, in such a hurry to get out... You can even hear Anderson saying things like "Is it over yet? I'm out of here..." WHILE the DJ is STILL asking questions...
THere were actually tooooo many bad spots to pick out... I think they were way off the mark in how they handled this national spotlight opportunity. There's a difference between having a laugh or two, and then returning to the business at hand. They dropped the ball on this one... It stunk.

Rd92254

07-14-2002, 12:39 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B] We can't turn these guys into things that they are not. We can only appreciate that as a unit they create things that we can appreciate and only they can do it.

The sum of Yes music in way beyond the totality of the personalities involved in the creation.

So, let them drink or smoke or whatever... I love when they play and that's enough for me.

Your point is well taken... however, we're talking about a NATIONAL radio show here, not some backstage party or getting stoned at Squire's house....etc.
I've heard enough stories of Anderson and Howe shunning fans to last a lifetime... I'm sure they ARE disappointed. You haven't had that experience yet. Regardless, you don't act like a bunch of clowns, mumbling and laughing at your questioins, on national radio... It detracts from what YES is all about.

Rd92254

07-14-2002, 12:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YYY
[B]I've had the opportunity to hear YES interviewed Live only a few times recently and each time it's been disappointing. Knowing how their fan base is made up of people who have followed them for years, I think they should be more cognitive of who is there audience. I enjoy listening to them have a good time but not at the expense of the host, listeners and callers. They probably missed a great opportunity to bring in new fans or those who are undecided and need to know the amazing abilty of these great musicians.

I totally agree. Very well put. I hope they read your post.

yesindeed

07-14-2002, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by Rd92254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B] We can't turn these guys into things that they are not. We can only appreciate that as a unit they create things that we can appreciate and only they can do it.

The sum of Yes music in way beyond the totality of the personalities involved in the creation.

So, let them drink or smoke or whatever... I love when they play and that's enough for me.

Your point is well taken... however, we're talking about a NATIONAL radio show here, not some backstage party or getting stoned at Squire's house....etc.
I've heard enough stories of Anderson and Howe shunning fans to last a lifetime... I'm sure they ARE disappointed. You haven't had that experience yet. Regardless, you don't act like a bunch of clowns, mumbling and laughing at your questioins, on national radio... It detracts from what YES is all about.

I don't disagree with you. I think they were rude to the audience and the dj also. They should treat fans that call in better than that. But what is the chance of say Jon looking in here, reading this and giving a poop what yesindeed said about his attitude. So, it is what it is and being upset with them is pointless.

It's just that I am not going to let the personalities of the artists interfere with my appreciation of the art. As you say "what Yes is all about". Well, to me it is the music... period. I can't get all wound up in the personalities involved because if I count on Jon et al to be perfect, or even just better than most, I will be let down, because they are just people after all. But, if I put my faith in the music I know that I will be uplifted and inspired.

As for why they are like that more that they have been in the past; I think they tried to play the media game during the Ladder, got bit on the ass and now are a little (or a lot) petulant about the whole media thing. If I were to hypothesize I might suggest that they are now playing for themselves, playing what they want and when they want and screw any media hype because they are not interested in playing the media game. And, the fans that follow them now are hard as rock and not likely to be phased by unfortunate behaviour. They know this and are not likely to give a rats ass what anyone thinks of their attitude anymore.

Now, if any of that careless attitude seeps into the music.. Well, that's another matter altogether. A fan base as solid as thiers will leave them cold at the first sign of faltering effort in the work. Not that they are expected to play like 18 year olds, but they will be expected to put out 100% of what they can do now.

That's just my uniformed opinion of course. Why they haul themselves into a studio to sit and ignore callers and the interviewer is beyond me though... why waste the time??

YesNY

07-14-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Original_Shifty
I've seen it as a bunch of 50 year old's, who have been working together for decades still able to have fun. They do have their serious side (just look at the music the put out in the studio). Plus, they've been rehearsing together, stuck in a room, for days.
Give these guys a break. It just seemed they were blowing off some steam.

But let me get back to my first statement. They are still able to have fun, and when that is over, so is our group.

Oh, and I'm glad to hear Alan and Steve (especially Steve) and Jon lauging and carrying on. It makes them seem more human from their stage persona's.

Nobody is saying they can't have fun. But when one or two million people tune in especially to hear what you have to say, lets at least try to be coherent. The early Beatles (fun and witty) these guys were not.

You folks that may have missed it, were fortunate to have not wasted your time with Wednesday night's Rockline broadcast. Your time will be better spent watching the Yesyears video, which showed the Yes members to be articulate and interesting when interviewed separately and (mostly) not stoned.

stevepenn

07-14-2002, 11:58 AM

Didn't hear the show, but this is pretty discouraging. I've met them several times and they have come off alternately as quite nice and engaging or very smug and pompous, the big exception being Alan White who's the classiest guy of the bunch and has always been a gentleman every time I've met him.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to read a transcript or hear a recording of the show. Anybody have any scoop on either?

Rd92254

07-14-2002, 11:25 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

I don't disagree with you. I think they were rude to the audience and the dj also. They should treat fans that call in better than that.
It's just that I am not going to let the personalities of the artists interfere with my appreciation of the art. As you say "what Yes is all about". Well, to me it is the music... period. I can't get all wound up in the personalities involved because if I count on Jon et al to be perfect, or even just better than most, I will be let down, because they are just people after all

A fan base as solid as thiers will leave them cold at the first sign of faltering effort in the work. Not that they are expected to play like 18 year olds, but they will be expected to put out 100% of what they can do now.

Why they haul themselves into a studio to sit and ignore callers and the interviewer is beyond me though... why waste the time??

First of all, the bottom line is you seem to agree that they're
behavior/attitude on national radio was less than what we'd hoped for. That's good.
Second, You say that a 'fan base as solid as thiers would leave them cold at the first sign of faltering effort in the work...''
etc. Well, if you want to be honest with yourself, that is exactly what has happened to Yes since their hey day. They used to fill 18,000 seat arenas. They were putting out classic albums.
I've taken people to Yes concerts during the past 10 years, and gotten large doses of material from 'marginal' albums, etc, and those people did not become Yes fans, and they did not desire to attend another Yes concert.
Yes has done some very very poor, marginal work during the past 15 years...including some of their WORST work ever, and I think not many Yes fans would argue with that.
This is why Yes now plays to 1,600 instead of 16,000.
In reality, fans HAVE been leaving by the droves over the past 20 years.
McCartney turned 60 this year, and on recent tours, he's sold out 50,000 seat stadiums... night after night... not an open seat. It CAN be done.
When Paul does an interview, he has charm, and gets serious when it's time to get serious, and adds HUMOR, NOT SARCASIM...and answers the questions HE'S BEEN ASKED A MILLION TIMES.
It's not like YES is on national radio every day and they're getting bored with it.
Being a Yes fan of 31 years, I was disappointed.
Final point: And this is what we should remember:
NO human beings should talk down to ANY other human being, period... so what bugs me the most is that AS PEOPLE, period, they treated other people crappy...and that's what bothers me.
Musicians, or not, that is uncalled for. Period.

Rd92254

07-14-2002, 11:33 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevepenn
...or very smug and pompous, the big exception being Alan White who's the classiest guy of the bunch and has always been a gentleman every time I've met him.

The stories of Howe/Anderson smugness are plentiful.
I met Jon twice... once he was sort of ok,and after the HOB concert (Vegas) I had said a simple line or two to him and he had a glazed look on his face, wasn't even listening, or trying to FAKE like he was even listening... gave a less an than half hearted hand shake, and floated away.
Check this out:
Willie Nelson has sold more records than Yes will EVER sell, and has written more classic hits than Yes ever will... and AFTER EVERY SINGLE SHOW... Willie comes to the front of the stage and shakes hands and/or signs autographs for EVERY SINGLE PERSON who wants one...regardless of how long it takes...
THAT is show business class.
THAT is a person who knows where is House Payment, car payment, and kids education is coming from.
Hey, most people work 8-10 hours a day, and commute,and then go home and work with the kids.
So you give a pre-concert interview to a few local press, do a concert, of less than 3 hours... and then what?
Nothing is wrong with taking a small amount of time to meet and greet the people who put your food on the table, and the roof over thier heads.

RD

yesindeed

07-14-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Rd92254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

I don't disagree with you. I think they were rude to the audience and the dj also. They should treat fans that call in better than that.
It's just that I am not going to let the personalities of the artists interfere with my appreciation of the art. As you say "what Yes is all about". Well, to me it is the music... period. I can't get all wound up in the personalities involved because if I count on Jon et al to be perfect, or even just better than most, I will be let down, because they are just people after all

A fan base as solid as thiers will leave them cold at the first sign of faltering effort in the work. Not that they are expected to play like 18 year olds, but they will be expected to put out 100% of what they can do now.

Why they haul themselves into a studio to sit and ignore callers and the interviewer is beyond me though... why waste the time??

First of all, the bottom line is you seem to agree that they're
behavior/attitude on national radio was less than what we'd hoped for. That's good.
Second, You say that a 'fan base as solid as thiers would leave them cold at the first sign of faltering effort in the work...''
etc. Well, if you want to be honest with yourself, that is exactly what has happened to Yes since their hey day. They used to fill 18,000 seat arenas. They were putting out classic albums.
I've taken people to Yes concerts during the past 10 years, and gotten large doses of material from 'marginal' albums, etc, and those people did not become Yes fans, and they did not desire to attend another Yes concert.
Yes has done some very very poor, marginal work during the past 15 years...including some of their WORST work ever, and I think not many Yes fans would argue with that.
This is why Yes now plays to 1,600 instead of 16,000.
In reality, fans HAVE been leaving by the droves over the past 20 years.
McCartney turned 60 this year, and on recent tours, he's sold out 50,000 seat stadiums... night after night... not an open seat. It CAN be done.
When Paul does an interview, he has charm, and gets serious when it's time to get serious, and adds HUMOR, NOT SARCASIM...and answers the questions HE'S BEEN ASKED A MILLION TIMES.
It's not like YES is on national radio every day and they're getting bored with it.
Being a Yes fan of 31 years, I was disappointed.
Final point: And this is what we should remember:
NO human beings should talk down to ANY other human being, period... so what bugs me the most is that AS PEOPLE, period, they treated other people crappy...and that's what bothers me.
Musicians, or not, that is uncalled for. Period.

Yes, I agree that their attitude during rockline was unfortunate.

No, I don't agree that thier work lately has been marginal. Mag is wonderful and the Ladder is also great Yes material. McCartneys' voice is really going, and Jons is as good as ever and even better than it has sometimes been in the past.

McCartney fills stadiums based on Beatles nostalgia, not talent (imho). It would seem that Yes does not care to go the media route or has decided that it is too late to even try. I can't think of any other reason for the rude behaviour on rockline. And I still don't understand why they put the time into the interview if they had no intention of being interviewed.

Yes' talent is as good as it has ever been. Yes' attitude? (shrug) I guess I can't really allow myself to care... if I did I would be subscribing to a cult of personality instead of just appreciating the music. But, I can't say that listening to them ignoring people on the air didn't bug me....

stevepenn

07-15-2002, 12:19 AM

Again, I find myself discouraged that they would do this. I wanted to clarify that once I spent several hours (almost a whole day) with Jon on the 90125 tour and he was simply great. Very, very cool. Talking of Chagall and writing. It was magical. Another time, he was hurried and just didn't seem to give much of a damn. To the point of being fairly rude. Chris always seems to be a little involved with himself, but one memorable occasion was quite cool. And again, Alan was always, well, Alan. Cool.

I can explain this only one way. I am not their friend, nor do I expect to be. We are fans, not buddies. And we should all deal with that. We're a helluva lot closer to them in our hearts than they could ever be expected to be to us in theirs, outside of making and playing their music. Geddy Lee got it just right and said it pretty plainly when he sang on Moving Pictures "I can't pretend a stranger is a long, lost friend."

I know that. I believe that. I understand that. These guys are human. But, and this is a big but, they are also professionals and, like it or not, public personalities. As such they DO owe the fans a modicum of respect. And, dare I say, a little bit of gratitude for the reasons stated in this thread. Especially in such a public venue as national radio. Perhaps not at the nightly, probably boring (for them) meet and greets which I am quite certain can be a total drag after a draining show. But on national radio? Yes. They do.

Hell, I get cranky after long meetings with my clients whom I've known for years. We all have our moments of "just go away." But their opportunities for exposure of this magnitude are few and far between these days and when they commit to going on air, they DO have a responsibility to be mature, respect the fans, the host and the opportunity. They can't expect that particular moment to be a pay-back or shine it on for the sins of asshole media actions past. Of which there are admittedly plenty to pout and be pissed about.

I cringe to think that some loyal, wide-eyed fan who has the opportunity of a lifetime to ask a question of his or her heroes would get brushed aside or even ridiculed. Now I have to confess again I didn't hear the show, so I don't know what happened and don't want to judge too harshly here. Please know that. But I've read enough posts here to believe the good people of this forum are giving the guys the benefit of the doubt and many of you have STILL walked away shaking your heads at what appeared to be a not-so-great moment in Yes interview history. I have listened to some bad ones before personally that had me doing the same. But think about this for a moment: Imagine the letdown, the very real heartbreak some fan has listening to this. It could turn them off to the band forever.

As for me, Yes, I'll continue to listen. Yes, I'll continue to admire their awesome talent. And, Yes, I'm paying good money on tickets, airfare, car rental hotel, beer bucks et al to see the best band on the planet. That hasn't changed and it won't for me personally. I cannot wait to see this tour and am
as excited as I've ever been to see what they pull out of the hat with Rick.

Yet, for me the bottom line is that you just can't sing about beauty, love, and human togetherness and then be a jerk. It just doesn't cut it. It appears at the very least to be disingenuous. It doesn't measure up to a set of professed life beliefs. Again, we're all human, but for crying out loud, why choose national radio and a great PR opportunity to make such a lapse of judgment. There is, quite simply, no excuse for it. Seems damned dumb.

I dunno. I didn't hear it. But I don't like what I'm hearing from you good folks about what you all did hear.

It's too bad, really. And more than a bit sad.

Oh, well. Long live the music. I love it with all my heart. That's why I'm in it. That's why I'll stay in it.

Peace to you all.

Steve :}

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 12:22 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

Yes, I agree that their attitude during rockline was unfortunate.

No, I don't agree that thier work lately has been marginal. Mag is wonderful and the Ladder is also great Yes material. McCartneys' voice is really going, and Jons is as good as ever and even better than it has sometimes been in the past.

McCartney fills stadiums based on Beatles nostalgia, not talent (imho). It would seem that Yes does not care to go the media route or has decided that it is too late to even try.
Yes' talent is as good as it has ever been. Yes' attitude? (shrug)

.........THANKS FOR RESPONDING:
First of all, I saw Paul two nights in a row just about a month or two ago, and his voice was amazing. He belted out high notes/songs like MAYBE I'M AMAZED and it was incredible...
And Paul's level of talent is not to be underestimated. He's one of the PREMIER bass players of all time! Listen to his work on ALL of his records, and it's mind blowing. He's a genius bass player, period! He plays guitar better than Anderson, Piano better than Anderson, and bass on a high enough level that the TOP bassists of the world can give Paul high praise for his work.
Paul's TALENT level, I'm afraid, you are some what underestimating.
I am also very very very pleased that Anderson's voice is 99.5% of what it's always been.... what a treat to hear this guy sing.
.......However, Yes still lives on past glories as well...
If they came on stage and did nothing but songs from Talk, Open Your Eyes and the poorly written original stuff from Keys, they would see their attendance drop considerably...
......The Ladder has some nice moments on it, and Magnification has some nice things on it, but are they truly the quality of CTTE and GFTO, the same caliber of writing? Not even close.
......As far as McCartney goes, you'd be surprised at how many people grew up during the time period of McCartney's SOLO works, long after the Beatles, and were there for the WINGS songs as well.
.....McCartney has probably done 10,000 more concerts/appearances/recording sessions than Anderson has, and he's had to SCREAM and ROCK a lot more than Anderson has, and Paul doesn't have a ton of 10 minute musical interludes to give his voice long periods of rest all evening/concert, either. All things considered, the Former Beatle has probably had to have given THOUSANDS more interviews than Anderson has...meaning his voice has been through a LOT more than Andersons has.
Believe me...I just saw Paul recently, for two nights, and he sang wonderfully. I would've been sad and heart broken to hear Paul's voice shredding and barely cutting it... but he was in great shape. Paul did a nearly THREE HOUR show, singing constantly, and left to thunderous standing ovations.
........People will be talking about Paul McCartney long after Yes is forgotten, several generations from now.
.......Personally, I think YES is the second most incredible, important band after the Beatles.
People think I am NUTS for arguing so strongly on YES' behalf... but I think it's true.
......Jons voice is also in wonderful shape.
But, in reality, like Paul, Yes is still living off of Roundabout, Owner of a Lonely Heart and it's classic albums of the past. THAT's why people still go to see them... they want to hear THOSE time period tunes more than the later stuff.
If Yes was touring and doing ONLY Magnification and Ladder stuff.... I'd be less concerned about being there to hear it.
.........But read what people are talking about getting reading for this tour: It's SOUTH SIDE OF THE SKY...and what other CLASSICS might they dust off for this one. THIS is what is exciting people.
.........No one is HOPING for certain songs from the Ladder, or Talk, or Open Your Eyes...or UNION, or KEYS.....etc... They want the classics. They want the Yes standards.... just like Paul's fans want to hear the classics, as well. No difference.
Peace. Enjoy the shows. I'll be at BOTH Vegas shows, front row, center seats....(Was 2nd in line to buy tickets!!!!)
LONG time Yes fan... RD

hypatiamarshall

07-15-2002, 12:25 AM

Did you sleep on the sidewalk overnight????

Jan in Erie CO

yesindeed

07-15-2002, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Rd92254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

Yes, I agree that their attitude during rockline was unfortunate.

No, I don't agree that thier work lately has been marginal. Mag is wonderful and the Ladder is also great Yes material. McCartneys' voice is really going, and Jons is as good as ever and even better than it has sometimes been in the past.

McCartney fills stadiums based on Beatles nostalgia, not talent (imho). It would seem that Yes does not care to go the media route or has decided that it is too late to even try.
Yes' talent is as good as it has ever been. Yes' attitude? (shrug)

.........THANKS FOR RESPONDING:
First of all, I saw Paul two nights in a row just about a month or two ago, and his voice was amazing. He belted out high notes/songs like MAYBE I'M AMAZED and it was incredible...
And Paul's level of talent is not to be underestimated. He's one of the PREMIER bass players of all time! Listen to his work on ALL of his records, and it's mind blowing. He's a genius bass player, period! He plays guitar better than Anderson, Piano better than Anderson, and bass on a high enough level that the TOP bassists of the world can give Paul high praise for his work.
Paul's TALENT level, I'm afraid, you are some what underestimating.
I am also very very very pleased that Anderson's voice is 99.5% of what it's always been.... what a treat to hear this guy sing.
.......However, Yes still lives on past glories as well...
If they came on stage and did nothing but songs from Talk, Open Your Eyes and the poorly written original stuff from Keys, they would see their attendance drop considerably...
......The Ladder has some nice moments on it, and Magnification has some nice things on it, but are they truly the quality of CTTE and GFTO, the same caliber of writing? Not even close.
......As far as McCartney goes, you'd be surprised at how many people grew up during the time period of McCartney's SOLO works, long after the Beatles, and were there for the WINGS songs as well.
.....McCartney has probably done 10,000 more concerts/appearances/recording sessions than Anderson has, and he's had to SCREAM and ROCK a lot more than Anderson has, and Paul doesn't have a ton of 10 minute musical interludes to give his voice long periods of rest all evening/concert, either. All things considered, the Former Beatle has probably had to have given THOUSANDS more interviews than Anderson has...meaning his voice has been through a LOT more than Andersons has.
Believe me...I just saw Paul recently, for two nights, and he sang wonderfully. I would've been sad and heart broken to hear Paul's voice shredding and barely cutting it... but he was in great shape. Paul did a nearly THREE HOUR show, singing constantly, and left to thunderous standing ovations.
........People will be talking about Paul McCartney long after Yes is forgotten, several generations from now.
.......Personally, I think YES is the second most incredible, important band after the Beatles.
People think I am NUTS for arguing so strongly on YES' behalf... but I think it's true.
......Jons voice is also in wonderful shape.
But, in reality, like Paul, Yes is still living off of Roundabout, Owner of a Lonely Heart and it's classic albums of the past. THAT's why people still go to see them... they want to hear THOSE time period tunes more than the later stuff.
If Yes was touring and doing ONLY Magnification and Ladder stuff.... I'd be less concerned about being there to hear it.
.........But read what people are talking about getting reading for this tour: It's SOUTH SIDE OF THE SKY...and what other CLASSICS might they dust off for this one. THIS is what is exciting people.
.........No one is HOPING for certain songs from the Ladder, or Talk, or Open Your Eyes...or UNION, or KEYS.....etc... They want the classics. They want the Yes standards.... just like Paul's fans want to hear the classics, as well. No difference.
Peace. Enjoy the shows. I'll be at BOTH Vegas shows, front row, center seats....(Was 2nd in line to buy tickets!!!!)
LONG time Yes fan... RD

We can argue opinions on Jon and Pauls voice forever. Paul sounds tired to me and not to you. Ok then.

Of course the best work from Yes was during the 70's. No argument from me. And Pauls best work was also 70's for solo stuff. But Mag is right up there for me. On a par with Fragile and just shy of CTTE but that's just me of course.

I believe that yes music will still be played, at least as long as Beatles music. I once argued with a music reviewer that if the Beatles had not broken up there would have been a Tales from Strawberry Fields style of album from them eventually. Yes, in many respects, carried on where the Beatles left off... prog-wise.

We digress. Pity about the interview, hope they play well this tour. Shall we call that an agreement then?

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 12:51 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevepenn
[B]Again, I find myself discouraged that they would do this
These guys are human. But, and this is a big but, they are also professionals and, like it or not, public personalities. As such they DO owe the fans a modicum of respect. And, dare I say, a little bit of gratitude for the reasons stated in this thread. Especially in such a public venue as national radio. But on national radio? Yes. They do.
Hell, I get cranky after long meetings with my clients whom I've known for years. We all have our moments of "just go away." But their opportunities for exposure of this magnitude are few and far between these days and when they commit to going on air, they DO have a responsibility to be mature, respect the fans, the host and the opportunity. They can't expect that particular moment to be a pay-back or shine it on for the sins of asshole media actions past. Of which there are admittedly plenty to pout and be pissed about.
I cringe to think that some loyal, wide-eyed fan who has the opportunity of a lifetime to ask a question of his or her heroes would get brushed aside or even ridiculed But think about this for a moment: Imagine the letdown, the very real heartbreak some fan has listening to this. It could turn them off to the band forever.

Yet, for me the bottom line is that you just can't sing about beauty, love, and human togetherness and then be a jerk. It just doesn't cut it. It appears at the very least to be disingenuous. It doesn't measure up to a set of professed life beliefs.
It's too bad, really. And more than a bit sad.
Steve

..............GREAT POINTS!!!!!!!!!!
I copied the ones above that really are strong!!! You are right that as PROFESSIONS at this level, there is a time and a place to get it together...
You can not sing about love, peace and getting together, and then be jerks... you are right... it doesn't add up.
Anyway, GREAT POINTS, steve.... Great contribution!

RD

VentureRG

07-15-2002, 01:10 AM

Wow! I'm staying out of this except to say that I am not going to see two shows within three days on this tour for just "the classics." I'm there hopefully to hear stuff like Mind Drive, That That is, SSOTS (which has not been performed) and other substantial works written and conceived by these 5 guys. I can personnally do without some of the classics that have been played repeatedly on every recent tour (AYAI). Give me some of the "deeper" cuts from their vast catalog (Tormato, GFTO as well as albums with differing lineups). For example, Tempus Fugit was virtually a hit and got big time radio play back when it came out. Lets hear Jon and the boys do a killer version of it. Those kind of surprises would make this tour really exciting--I'd give up hearing YM/AGP in a second for A VENTURE.

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by yesindeed

....1. We can argue opinions on Jon and Pauls voice forever. Paul sounds tired to me and not to you. Ok then.

....2. Of course the best work from Yes was during the 70's. No argument from me. And Pauls best work was also 70's for solo stuff. But Mag is right up there for me. On a par with Fragile and just shy of CTTE but that's just me of course.

...3. I believe that yes music will still be played, at least as long as Beatles music. I once argued with a music reviewer that if the Beatles had not broken up there would have been a Tales from Strawberry Fields style of album from them eventually. Yes, in many respects, carried on where the Beatles left off... prog-wise.

.....4. We digress. Pity about the interview, hope they play well this tour. Shall we call that an agreement then?

....... (: Allow me to respond..haha.... and peace...!

1. I'll give you one thing: Paul's voice IS tired...he's 60 years old and he's given 1,000 percent for 4 decades... that's natural.
But he took care of himself and his voice was INCREDIBLE for the six hours I listened to him sing.... It was heaven.
By reading past YesHubs you can see many nights where songs were dropped because Anderson's voice was struggling. It's only natural.

.....2 Yes Paul's best work was the 60/70s, HOWEVER: He's done a couple of magnificent albums recently as well. One was FLOWERS IN THE DIRT, which contains some of the best McCartney songs I've heard in ages. I make 'bestof' CDs for friends...turning them on to YES and Beatles, all the time.
I include several of Paul's later songs on this 'McCartney' CD.
That's how strong I think they are.
I guess we'll just disagree on the level of quality of MAG. I've listened to it enough to come to the conclusion that it is NOT of the same caliber of CTTE, and other older YEs classics. We'll just have to disagree here...haha.... That's cool. I respect your opinion. Moving on....

......3. I'd like to think so. But since there are far fewer YES fans than Beatle Fans, basic math will tell you that Beatles music will outlive Yes music. Let me clerify this: I LOVE YES!!!!! I turn every one on to YES that I can. I am a HUGE YES advocate.
I will be 90 years old and listening to YES on my headphones!!!!!
You can't even find YES mentioned in normal Rock music polls.
It's like YES doesn't exist on many levels... and this blows my mind. They are clearly the most talented, best rock group since the Beatles, hands down.
............I also thought, for a time, that the Beatles, if they'd stayed together, would've taken side two of Abbey Road a step further, and done YES type (LONG form) composition. However, even as solo artists, this never came to be.
Paul came the closest, when he started to do songs that contained 3-5 seperate sections of seemingly unrelated musical sections... where his songs went from section to section,and never came back again.... He actually did quite a bit of this in songs like Band On The Run, Uncle Albert, Backseat Of My Car,
Venus and Mars, London Town, etc...
I, like you, always THOUGHT this material would develop and grow into YES type longer pieces... though on Paul's level.
......Remember, Paul DID write the longer classical pieces and Liverpool Oratorio--etc...which by the way, both stunk, in my opinion.... But, he's been open to it. I know what you mean, though, and I agree.... I, too, thought the Beatles or post Beatles work would end up doing a TALES FROM STRAWBERRY FIELDS haha....
.....and yes, it's a good point....I agree with you: I feel YES did pick up where the Beatles left off,and I think most people miss this completely.
You have your Zeppelins, and Whos, and whoever elses, BUT. as talented as they all were, they were basically ROCK bands. YES transformed this level, crossed that line....and became more musical artists of their generation... true composers and musicians....
The Beatles and Yes have something uniquely in common: They both wrote MUSIC much less than 'rock' songs....Their compositions are far more unique and harder to duplicate (from a writing, creative standpoint) than 'typical' rock music.

......4. Yep...pity about the interview. Looking forward to the tour.... both nights, in vegas, front row!!!!! Thanks for writing.
RD

YesNY

07-15-2002, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by Rd92254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevepenn
...or very smug and pompous, the big exception being Alan White who's the classiest guy of the bunch and has always been a gentleman every time I've met him.

The stories of Howe/Anderson smugness are plentiful.
I met Jon twice... once he was sort of ok,and after the HOB concert (Vegas) I had said a simple line or two to him and he had a glazed look on his face, wasn't even listening, or trying to FAKE like he was even listening... gave a less an than half hearted hand shake, and floated away.
Check this out:
Willie Nelson has sold more records than Yes will EVER sell, and has written more classic hits than Yes ever will... and AFTER EVERY SINGLE SHOW... Willie comes to the front of the stage and shakes hands and/or signs autographs for EVERY SINGLE PERSON who wants one...regardless of how long it takes...
THAT is show business class.
THAT is a person who knows where is House Payment, car payment, and kids education is coming from.
Hey, most people work 8-10 hours a day, and commute,and then go home and work with the kids.
So you give a pre-concert interview to a few local press, do a concert, of less than 3 hours... and then what?
Nothing is wrong with taking a small amount of time to meet and greet the people who put your food on the table, and the roof over thier heads.

RD

I'm with agreement that Yes' behavior on the Rockline broadcast was very unprofessional. But as for your brief encounters with Jon Anderson, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Strangers pulling at your attention, no matter how well intended, must ware on a person after a while. Plus don't forget to consider that many rock artists have some hearing loss after years of live performances, which could be the cause of his glazed look. Who really knows?

(Lets hope Willie, from now on, also remembers to pay the tax man when he is paying for the fancy house and car.)

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 01:22 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YesNY
[B]

I'm with agreement that Yes' behavior on the Rockline broadcast was very unprofessional. But as for your brief encounters with Jon Anderson, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
...many rock artists have some hearing loss after years of live performances, which could be the cause of his glazed look. Who really knows?
....(Lets hope Willie, from now on, also remembers to pay the tax man when he is paying for the fancy house and car.)

REPLY:
.....Oh...I couldn't care less about the personal side of meeting them... You're right...who knows what's going on in a persons personal life at that moment...where their attention really is.
Having said that, however, STARS must remember that what is a brief, seemingly 'meaningless' encounter for them could be someone's LONG TIME confrontation coming true... and it's blown for all time....
I think that being professional, courteous, etc, COMES WITH THE TERRITORY of fame and success. Sorry. You wanted to be well known, get paid well, sell records, be on stage...then hold up your end of the bargain... AT LEAST BE NICE!.
Is that tooooooo much to ask for?......

......Willie's hand shaking and autograph signing sessions after shows could teach Yes a little something about increasing their popularitiy.

.......This seems like a pretty easy question to answer:
Would you rather have someone telling all their friends and co workers what an ass you were, or how great you were?
Leave a good impression on people, and they will carry that with them to other people. Common sense, regardless of your walk of life, and regardless of your career/job.

That's PEOPLE sense, Common sense, and it has nothing to do with being in YES, or being Willie Nelson....

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by hypatiamarshall
Did you sleep on the sidewalk overnight????

Jan in Erie CO

Hi Jan, nice to 'meet' you...
I'm fairly new to the Yes forum....but a 31 year HUGE fan....!!!
....No... I was just second in line, and since the hotel did not hold back any seats (like ticketmasters do, etc...) I was a bit floored when I saw the ticket options and every seat was available.

On Saturday, I'm going by myself, since I really don't know many Yes fans here in Vegas, and I'm sitting front row, on Wakeman's side. I play keyboards for a living, and moved to Vegas from colorado (Indian Hills, outside of Evergreen/Morrison area)...so I wanted to spend one night front row in front of Wakeman.

A guy from Jersey emailed me and his daughter (aged 11) wants to spend some time sitting in front of Jon on Sunday, so we're going to switch seats for a few songs on Saturday/Sunday evenings, so on Saturday, I'm actually going to be sitting in front of Jon for a short while as well...

On Sunday, I have two tickets in front of Jon, dead center, front row.... and the guy from Jersey/daughter will be sitting near wakeman.... so we'll switch again for a few songs, both nights.

I just got lucky. I've been to 17 Yes shows. I was standing in the first/second row in front of Steve Howe during the taping of the HOB show in Vegas, and am actually in the film... In fact, I had to keep ducking because the camera kept swinging right over my head....

But this is the FIRST time in my life I've EVER got front row, center seats. I was in the 11th row for Paul McCartney recently, and that was very cool.
Yes and McCartney are the only two acts I'll pay to see.
I sure miss Colorado. Before YES booked the Vegas nights, I was tempted to go to Denver to see them on that Monday, which I have off.
I wanted the concert to be at RED ROCKS park, though... not the Pepsi Center parking lot...haha...
If the show were at Red Rocks, I probably WOULD get there, one way or another.... that would be a special evening.

Very excited about this tour, Wakeman, and the classic songs they'll be doing...
Enjoy the tour...
RICK

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 01:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VentureRG
[B]Give me some of the "deeper" cuts from their vast catalog (Tormato, GFTO as well as albums with differing lineups). For example, Tempus Fugit was virtually a hit and got big time radio play back when it came out. Lets hear Jon and the boys do a killer version of it. Those kind of surprises would make this tour really exciting--I'd give up hearing YM/AGP in a second for A VENTURE

.....I totally agree. Wouldn't it be GREAT to hear some odd stuff from Tormato, GFTO, and some other choice tunes?
I agree!!!! A few less YM/AGP type and a few more like you're talking about.... that would be fantastic.
RD

yesindeed

07-15-2002, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Rd92254

(snip)
....... (: Allow me to respond..haha.... and peace...!

......3. I'd like to think so. But since there are far fewer YES fans than Beatle Fans, basic math will tell you that Beatles music will outlive Yes music. Let me clerify this: I LOVE YES!!!!! I turn every one on to YES that I can. I am a HUGE YES advocate.
I will be 90 years old and listening to YES on my headphones!!!!!
You can't even find YES mentioned in normal Rock music polls.
It's like YES doesn't exist on many levels... and this blows my mind. They are clearly the most talented, best rock group since the Beatles, hands down.
............I also thought, for a time, that the Beatles, if they'd stayed together, would've taken side two of Abbey Road a step further, and done YES type (LONG form) composition. However, even as solo artists, this never came to be.
Paul came the closest, when he started to do songs that contained 3-5 seperate sections of seemingly unrelated musical sections... where his songs went from section to section,and never came back again.... He actually did quite a bit of this in songs like Band On The Run, Uncle Albert, Backseat Of My Car,
Venus and Mars, London Town, etc...
I, like you, always THOUGHT this material would develop and grow into YES type longer pieces... though on Paul's level.
......Remember, Paul DID write the longer classical pieces and Liverpool Oratorio--etc...which by the way, both stunk, in my opinion.... But, he's been open to it. I know what you mean, though, and I agree.... I, too, thought the Beatles or post Beatles work would end up doing a TALES FROM STRAWBERRY FIELDS haha....

(snip)
RD

Too interesting to let go:

On point 3- I don't see it as a progression of listening... a continuous line of Beatles and/or Yes music being heard "for generations". I believe that after they pass on, that type of music will be 'forgotten' withing 20-30 years but will be revived over and over again as music/cultural historians look back to the origins of rock (whatever rock becomes) as time goes on.

From a distance of say 100 years the Beatles will indeed stand out not only due to the music that they played but the numbers (the stats) that they carry. Yes doesn't carry the stats, but is unusual enough that they will almost certainly attract attention. They are the quintessential prog band; bar none. There is nothing that even approaches Tales or CTTE in the rest of the genre. Thier uniqueness ensures historical longevity.

On the other issue- I don't think the Beatles as soloists can muster the kind of work that could have produced a Tales type album. Neither could Yes I believe. It is the combination of the artists that creates music beyond the sum of the artists parts.

Rd92254

07-15-2002, 01:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

Too interesting to let go:

....1...... I believe that after they pass on, that type of music will be 'forgotten' withing 20-30 years but will be revived over and over again as music/cultural historians look back to the origins of rock (whatever rock becomes) as time goes on.
.....2..... From a distance of say 100 years the Beatles will indeed stand out not only due to the music that they played but the numbers (the stats) that they carry. Yes doesn't carry the stats, but is unusual enough that they will almost certainly attract attention.

....3....They (YES) are the quintessential prog band; bar none.
There is nothing that even approaches Tales or CTTE in the rest of the genre. Thier uniqueness ensures historical longevity.

....4..On the other issue- I don't think the Beatles as soloists can muster the kind of work that could have produced a Tales type album. Neither could Yes I believe. It is the combination of the artists that creates music beyond the sum of the artists parts

.............MY RESPONE: (and again, thanks for commenting...)

.....1. I agree. In the same way big band and the Dorsey era slides further away as time moves forward, so will the Beatles and Yes. And that as history looks back, now and again, Certainly the Beatles, and HOPEFULLY YES, will be rediscovered from time to time. I can see YES being rediscovered in the future in the same way many classical artists were more cherished after their deaths, and in the same way the great painters were more appreciated AFTER they were gone.
I'm just very, very, very thankful that I discovered Beatles music, because of their sheer creativity and great, unique song writing.
They did not write rock songs, they wrote clever pieces of music.
And I'm very very very glad I discovered YES, in 1972...and just like the first moment I heard the Beatles, and KNEW they were special, I felt the same way when I first heard YES! I KNEW they were going to carry the Beatles' torch a little further, and higher, even though the PUBLIC didn't get it... You don't judge GREATNESS by popularity. Here, we have two bands, equally incredible in their own ways... one hugely popular, and one barely recognized by the masses.... and BOTH head and shoulders above their peers. Hopefully, history will be very kind to YES, as it most certainly will be to the Fab Four.

.....2. NBo question there--The Beatles certainly have the stats! They are ALREADY in the encyclopedias, and Guiness Books, and the whatevers...Their place is carved in stone.
YES, on the other hand, is hardly even mentioned NOW in rock magazines, in interviews by other rock bands, and almost NEVER appear in ANY of the polls taken by VH1 or MTV i.e. "most popular bands of all time'' or ''most popular album of all time'' etc...
YES, for some odd reason, is rarely mentioned anywhere... they are the BEST 'least' known band in the world, for certain.
So, if you're going to go by history books and 'oldies' stations in the future, The Beatles will hang around long after Yes.

.....3. We are really in agreement over 95% of these topics.
There is NO DOUBT that YES is the most phenominal PROG ROCK band of ALL TIME. Yes, Emerson is incredible, and if the truth were to be spoken, his left hand is probably better than Wakemans right, haha... the point being, there are better musicians out there...but a better all around band, song for song, man for man, album for album, and by virtue of CREATIVITY, ORIGINALITY and LONGEVITY, YES takes the prize, no doubt.
YES, to me, has ALL the ingredients... while other prog rock bands have one or more of them, but not ALL of them.
Yes has the vocals, the musicianship, the complexity, the simplicity, the beauty, the uniqueness.... they have it all.
WE, as YES fans, KNOW why more people don't like them...they are simply too difficult to listen to for the average persons attention span... YES is a Gourmet meal, while rock music is basically fast food.

....4. Welllllll, this would be determined by the use of outside musicians, I guess. I mean...are you saying that neither Paul McCartney or Jon Anderson COULD do such a complicated solo album because they couldn't CREATE/WRITE one, or because they could not play all of the instruments?
I think this is a tough topic to discuss with short paragraphs, haha... Because... there are a LOT of keyboard players who, via samplers and programming, probably COULD do a solo album that is extremely complex and TALESish....
I think Paul COULD certainly do it if he were challanged to do it...and JON has already proved he can visualize such albums and make them into reality, albiet with the help of Howe, Squire, White, Wakeman, etc....
Soooo, do you mean they couldn't WRITE one, or play all the instruments?
I think Paul could surprise you... He's written such wonderful melodies, and dabbled in such odd things over the years, that if he WANTED to, I'm sure he could create a pretty impressive LONG song/concept piece.
And, of course, you are correct... the sum of musicians most always leads to a better product... But of course, too many cooks CAN spoil the stew... which is why SOMETIMES, it's better to have one chief, and 4 talented Indians to creative with you.
Back to you...take it away....haha....

RD

YYY

07-15-2002, 03:57 PM

Ur, Ur, ah, ah....He's right!... that's exactly what I ws about to say. Damn!

yesindeed

07-18-2002, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Rd92254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yesindeed
[B]

Too interesting to let go:

....1...... I believe that after they pass on, that type of music will be 'forgotten' withing 20-30 years but will be revived over and over again as music/cultural historians look back to the origins of rock (whatever rock becomes) as time goes on.
.....2..... From a distance of say 100 years the Beatles will indeed stand out not only due to the music that they played but the numbers (the stats) that they carry. Yes doesn't carry the stats, but is unusual enough that they will almost certainly attract attention.

....3....They (YES) are the quintessential prog band; bar none.
There is nothing that even approaches Tales or CTTE in the rest of the genre. Thier uniqueness ensures historical longevity.

....4..On the other issue- I don't think the Beatles as soloists can muster the kind of work that could have produced a Tales type album. Neither could Yes I believe. It is the combination of the artists that creates music beyond the sum of the artists parts

.............MY RESPONE: (and again, thanks for commenting...)

.....1. I agree. In the same way big band and the Dorsey era slides further away as time moves forward, so will the Beatles and Yes. And that as history looks back, now and again, Certainly the Beatles, and HOPEFULLY YES, will be rediscovered from time to time. I can see YES being rediscovered in the future in the same way many classical artists were more cherished after their deaths, and in the same way the great painters were more appreciated AFTER they were gone.
I'm just very, very, very thankful that I discovered Beatles music, because of their sheer creativity and great, unique song writing.
They did not write rock songs, they wrote clever pieces of music.
And I'm very very very glad I discovered YES, in 1972...and just like the first moment I heard the Beatles, and KNEW they were special, I felt the same way when I first heard YES! I KNEW they were going to carry the Beatles' torch a little further, and higher, even though the PUBLIC didn't get it... You don't judge GREATNESS by popularity. Here, we have two bands, equally incredible in their own ways... one hugely popular, and one barely recognized by the masses.... and BOTH head and shoulders above their peers. Hopefully, history will be very kind to YES, as it most certainly will be to the Fab Four.

.....2. NBo question there--The Beatles certainly have the stats! They are ALREADY in the encyclopedias, and Guiness Books, and the whatevers...Their place is carved in stone.
YES, on the other hand, is hardly even mentioned NOW in rock magazines, in interviews by other rock bands, and almost NEVER appear in ANY of the polls taken by VH1 or MTV i.e. "most popular bands of all time'' or ''most popular album of all time'' etc...
YES, for some odd reason, is rarely mentioned anywhere... they are the BEST 'least' known band in the world, for certain.
So, if you're going to go by history books and 'oldies' stations in the future, The Beatles will hang around long after Yes.

.....3. We are really in agreement over 95% of these topics.
There is NO DOUBT that YES is the most phenominal PROG ROCK band of ALL TIME. Yes, Emerson is incredible, and if the truth were to be spoken, his left hand is probably better than Wakemans right, haha... the point being, there are better musicians out there...but a better all around band, song for song, man for man, album for album, and by virtue of CREATIVITY, ORIGINALITY and LONGEVITY, YES takes the prize, no doubt.
YES, to me, has ALL the ingredients... while other prog rock bands have one or more of them, but not ALL of them.
Yes has the vocals, the musicianship, the complexity, the simplicity, the beauty, the uniqueness.... they have it all.
WE, as YES fans, KNOW why more people don't like them...they are simply too difficult to listen to for the average persons attention span... YES is a Gourmet meal, while rock music is basically fast food.

....4. Welllllll, this would be determined by the use of outside musicians, I guess. I mean...are you saying that neither Paul McCartney or Jon Anderson COULD do such a complicated solo album because they couldn't CREATE/WRITE one, or because they could not play all of the instruments?
I think this is a tough topic to discuss with short paragraphs, haha... Because... there are a LOT of keyboard players who, via samplers and programming, probably COULD do a solo album that is extremely complex and TALESish....
I think Paul COULD certainly do it if he were challanged to do it...and JON has already proved he can visualize such albums and make them into reality, albiet with the help of Howe, Squire, White, Wakeman, etc....
Soooo, do you mean they couldn't WRITE one, or play all the instruments?
I think Paul could surprise you... He's written such wonderful melodies, and dabbled in such odd things over the years, that if he WANTED to, I'm sure he could create a pretty impressive LONG song/concept piece.
And, of course, you are correct... the sum of musicians most always leads to a better product... But of course, too many cooks CAN spoil the stew... which is why SOMETIMES, it's better to have one chief, and 4 talented Indians to creative with you.
Back to you...take it away....haha....

RD

Sorry I took so long to repl; very busy.... you have probably moved on by now. That's ok, our ramblings aren't going to cause earthquakes in the musical community anyway ;)

As you say, we agree on most of this. I do think however that Tales and the potential Beatles Tales that never was would require the core artists involvement. I am sure that Paul could write a Paul Tales... but it wouldn't be a Beatles Tales. Just as Drama and ABWH are arguably not true Yes incarnations. They are fine and wonderful things, but they ain't the real thing.