White and Frampton

[James Bond]

Did anyone go - details please....

[ToBeOver]

I think Mr Zulu (Michael) was going to see this show today. I'm sure he'll post a review when he has some time.

I'm sure he had a great time! Look forward to his review!

:keyboard:

[MrZuLu]

First let me say it was good to talk to Alan. Will share some behind the scenes in another thread.
the setlist:
New Day
Beyond the Sea of Lies
Give Up Giving Up
Changes
and two new songs.

As most of you know by now I am a Sound Engineer as well as a Musician.

At first I thought, "Well... Only the second time onstage with this band and in front of a potentially hostile crowd. Maybe they are just nervous." Nobody was expecting an opening band in the first place and most everyone was surprised to find out Alan White was in the band including Frampton himself.

The sound was muffled. Didn't sound right. After "New Day" Kevin introduced "Beyond The Sea Of Lies" and the mix was still shallow. Like it was overly compressed or muted. Then Karl's equipment started acting up when he picked up his Les Paul. To me it sounded like a bad ground or a bad cable or jack. So that song was basically destroyed. He changed all his cables from the guitar through his footboard to the Amp. He did this very quickly and alone... no stagehand to help which I thought odd.(more on this later) This is when I first started suspecting sabotage...

He finally gave up on the Les Paul and went back to the PRS (I think that's what it was.) OK Guitar issue solved and they started "Give Up Giving Up". They got it back and this one was coming out much better except the keyboardist, Audience stage right (I think it was Wayo, I could be wrong, they had two playing keys.) I could clearly see the guy was wailing but nothing in the Mains. Then I realized what was happening; half of Alan's kit and all of 'Audience stage right' keys were solo muted. Meaning turned off in the mains for sound check. No kick or toms in the mains, no overheads for the cymbals and a subdued snare. Steve's bass was undermixed as well. The people up front could hear everything ok because they were getting the stage monitor mix. Alan knew something wasn't right and really started hitting them skins hard and making mistakes.

The fact the sound man dropped the ball became apparent when they started "Changes". The opening keyboard line made it clear there was nothing in the mains. :lol: I was watching the sound guy; he casually reached up with an extended index finger and clearly hit a button, BAM out jump the keys! He made that 'pointed finger' motion several times and all of a sudden you can hear a Yes Song and it was Alan White on drums. Finally a proper 'mains' mix. The next song, a new one, was spot on and sounded great.

The last song, another new one, was the best. Thick, full, loud and punchy. You could feel Alan's kick in your chest and Steve's bass in your bowels. Perfect mix. Thunderous! Boyce is really good on the Bass.
At first I thought it was Frampton's Engineers that dogged White; the sound man screwed the opener just like back in the day. Alan was clearly upset. The Audience was kind. They even bought a bunch of CDs which was a good thing.

When Frampton came out, the Sound was incredibly loud and thick. At this point I was sure Frampton's crony's sabotaged White's sound!

Here is the clincher... at least for me.

At least 15 people suddenly appeared on stage and White's equipment vanished in under 10 minutes and Frampton was on stage. Fastest band turnover I ever seen that I wasn't personally involved with.

At this point, I lost what little respect I had for Frampton.

Alan and Peter are supposed to be good friends... Frampton didn't mention White at all. Not a single thanks... He didn't even acknowledge their existence.

He opened with a cover tune and his sound was AWESOME - Spot on in fact; however, with his extensive catalogue, opening with a motown cover turned me off completely. He claimed on his website he wasn't going to do the Come's Alive music... On the site he alluded to playing things such as The Herd... Humble Pie...

not to be... at least not for me!

The second song was "I want you"... they finished that song and still no mention of White! At that point, We left.
Walking back to the car I was thinking, "Frampton's sound man screwed White to the floor." My friend Mikey said the same thing.

Turned out it was a friend of Boyce's. I since learned the sound company was a rival company to Mr. Steve Boyce's Sound Company. I wanted to smack this guy!
Honestly, I don't think it was done intentionally, but dam!!!

Accident or not, he gave White the 'Royal Enema' and it wasn't pretty.

I seriously doubt White will open for anyone unless it is Asia or Yes. Unfortunately, they will get a bad review because of a sound man.

Sigh...
Michael

[Mostly Harmless]

Too bad! I hope Alan drops the sound dude.

Thanks for the review.

[MrZuLu]

Too bad! I hope Alan drops the sound dude.

Thanks for the review.
that's just it

Boyce wanted his sound company to do it

instead it was a rival company to Steve's

None of this is White's fault

I would n't even blame this one on Smatt!!!

[YesHut]

Too bad that happened that way, I am sure the White Band was spot on for this show- only to be dropped off a cliff to start their show by the sound guy-

[MrZuLu]

Too bad that happened that way, I am sure the White Band was spot on for this show- only to be dropped off a cliff to start their show by the sound guy-
it was brutal
i should have done something. I was 10 yards away from the guy... but by the time I figured out what was going on their set was over!

[YesHut]

Hey Mr.Z, is White the Headliner for the Portland show?

[MrZuLu]

Hey Mr.Z, is White the Headliner for the Portland show?
well... that is a strong possibility...Alan and steve didn't hang long... Alan said they were off to rehearsal

[marklovesyes]

Thanks for the review, Michael. Wow - that's too bad, but it looks like maybe they got at least a few fans out of it.
Hope Portland goes well.

[True Believer]

Thanks for the review, Michael. Too bad about the sound - that sux.

[Buglunch]

Bummage.........
We've had things like that happen but not intentionally;
Alan is the nicest man on the planet- all he could do was leave ( I can never be silent when we get hassled in gigs like this, myself ).
This kind of thing can cripple a fledgling band a-borning on second real gig.
But I cannot stand casino venues- opposite crowd to Yes values. When even guitarist has huge problems, soundman is not on the stick, however it happens.

Man I love 'Changes' , we'll do that someday soon ourselves. There must be colleges or better venues without competition they can play alone and be listened to without slot machines and other bands tweezing their career.
:dgdbll:

[MrZuLu]

they did a great job with Changes...

I was totally impressed. Wayo is an awesome keyboardist

[smatt]

that's just it

Boyce wanted his sound company to do it

instead it was a rival company to Steve's

None of this is White's fault

I would n't even blame this one on Smatt!!!

Impossible Michael..... IT HAS TO BE MY FAULT..... Heck.. It was me ont he iceburg paddleing away when I saw the Titanic coming..... Taht was one heck of a big thing to be paddling.. But somebody had to sink that ship.... :lmao:


This is sad though Michael.. I've seen it happen before though.... It's very sad and VERY unproffesional... If I were an audio engineer doing live sound, I don't care WHO was on stage.... I would take pride in my work and make them sound the best I possibly could no matter what......

[kmcpro615]

Too bad! I hope Alan drops the sound dude.


I doubt if White had any input on the sound company at all. They were an opening act, trying to get some exposure and probably had as much to do with the decision making process as I had in the shows that I opened for the Syn, which was the square root of nada. Unless the act is contracting their own sound (very rare) at that level, usually whoever is producing the show is responsible for contracting those details, based on the rider detailing the bands technical requirements. It's not suprising that Frampton's sound was better as they had Alan White's set to figure out what they were doing.

Sadly, as an opener, unless its more of a co-headling situation, often you wind up getting a raw deal. That's just the way the rock & roll caste system works. You need to be able to shrug off these kind of pies in the face and chalk it up to things you had no control over. Hopefully you will live to fight another battle on another day........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[MrZuLu]

here is where the problem rears it's ugly head...

The Sound Company that did the show are friends of the bass player for White (Steve Boyce)

Boyce attempted to get his company in to do the sound stage but his rivals got the Gig.
It would not surprize me if a rider for the headliner had a clause that the opening act cannot bring their own sound man/mains

[Buglunch]

Any humane headliner act with such control would allow an afternoon soundcheck for opener band(s) until it was right. And then a tuner check with people in hall just before show.

Simple consideration for anyone- if they're good enough to open they should be treated well.
Pseudo-professional mistreatment with excuses doesn't cut the musical mustard. Not up here it doesn't.
When we're the main act we treat other bands like good friends.

( what's with the enormous blank space at bottom nowadays when there's no huge sigpic?? )

[MrZuLu]

the guy just forgot to clear all the solo buttons
the mix was perfect

he just forgot to turn all the channels on after checking the snare and the VOX

I will give the guy the benefit of the doubt and continue to believe he just forgot...

I simply can't fathom the guy did it intentionally

[kmcpro615]

Any humane headliner act with such control would allow an afternoon soundcheck for opener band(s) until it was right. And then a tuner check with people in hall just before show.

Simple consideration for anyone- if they're good enough to open they should be treated well.
Pseudo-professional mistreatment with excuses doesn't cut the musical mustard. Not up here it doesn't.
When we're the main act we treat other bands like good friends.


Circumstances can dictate situations. Treating people well is a decision we all get to make multiple times everyday of our lives. Unfortunately treating people well isn't something many headliners include in their riders. That being said, I doubt if Frampton or his people had any forethought to screwing with White, Frampton's rider was set up by his lawyer to minimize gig snafus for *his* client. White may not even have had a contract to do this gig....you never know. $hit happens. Hopefully you learn from it and move on..........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[MrZuLu]

here is where the problem rears it's ugly head...

The Sound Company that did the show are friends of the bass player for White (Steve Boyce)

Boyce attempted to get his company in to do the sound stage but his rivals got the Gig.
It would not surprize me if a rider for the headliner(Frampton) had a clause that the opening act cannot bring their own sound man/mains
bump

[allpurechance]

This thought has occurred to me over and over again in recent days/weeks/months/yea, verily verging upon the years, now...

You should do Yes' sound, Michael.

Can't be an easy job, but if anyone is up to it, that would be you.You should mix their live recordings for them, you should be in charge of every aspect of their audio...

Great review, by the way!

(You SHOULD!!!!)

[MrZuLu]

:dog:

[allpurechance]

:dog:

Yeah, I know....

lmaoOOOOOOOOOOooooooo

(But, you SHOULD!!!!)

[Buglunch]

:dog:

Hey! Quit being sMatt. :angel:

"Circumstances can dictate situations. Treating people well is a decision we all get to make multiple times everyday of our lives. Unfortunately treating people well isn't something many headliners include in their riders. That being said, I doubt if Frampton or his people had any forethought to screwing with White, Frampton's rider was set up by his lawyer to minimize gig snafus for *his* client. White may not even have had a contract to do this gig....you never know. $hit happens. Hopefully you learn from it and move on..........
"

Thing is, when it keeps happening you can't move on no matter how much you learn.
One member of band not doing soundcheck stands out where audience would be and verifies what soundman does. Then you flip.
Both bands play fully in check and get real musician feedback.

I do this all the time for grateful bands thatdon't have ego problems or soundman with an attitude- this is really common here: soundguys who act like they're the talent, not the band.
Bleah.

Even in sets, bands look to me during playing for heads ups on tweaking balance with hand signals. It works. And then I play after them, but few return the favour.

[allpurechance]

Ah, all the talent.

All the talent we have RIGHT HERE!

The things you could do...all the things we could do...

Moggles my bind it do...

[MrZuLu]

I just got word... there definitely was NOT any malicious intent on the part of the sound crew!

Frampton's bus was late and White didn't get a full sound check.. so part of the early mix was on the fly...

Karl having equipment difficulties didn't help this... by the time they got to 'changes', Tim, the sound guy, got caught up. At least the last three tunes were spot on.

White played well! it was just a tragedy of circumstances...

that does not excuse Frampton for opening with a COVER TUNE!

with his catalogue and background he could have done better~!

[kmcpro615]

I do this all the time for grateful bands thatdon't have ego problems or soundman with an attitude- this is really common here: soundguys who act like they're the talent, not the band.
Bleah.


You must be a gem and are no doubt appreciated. In the real world, my experience as a touring musician shows me that this does this not happen....in many cases because of time constraints. As an act coming in off the road, it is wise to kiss up to the soundguys. They can absolutely destroy you if you give them a reason to. When you are a bigger act, and have guys on your payroll doing these things, it gives you more leeway to be an arse-hole. But for the lower and mid level acts who show up and work with whoever the promoter contracts to do sound, they need to be much more careful about how they go about their business.

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[kmcpro615]

I just got word... there definitely was NOT any malicious intent on the part of the sound crew!

Frampton's bus was late and White didn't get a full sound check.. so part of the early mix was on the fly...

Karl having equipment difficulties didn't help this... by the time they got to 'changes', Tim, the sound guy, got caught up. At least the last three tunes were spot on.

White played well! it was just a tragedy of circumstances...

that does not excuse Frampton for opening with a COVER TUNE!

with his catalogue and background he could have done better~!


I guess circumstances do dictate situations............

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[MrZuLu]

I don't think that was disputed Kurt!
:inv[1]:

[kmcpro615]

I don't think that was disputed Kurt!
:inv[1]:

I didn't think there was anything under dispute either. Now if I'd have put that frickin laughing dog icon at the end of my post then you might have had reason to suspect something was up.........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[MrZuLu]

why?

you don't like laughing dogs?

[kmcpro615]

why?

you don't like laughing dogs?

Depends whos posting them and why.........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[smatt]

:dog:

[kmcpro615]

Hi Smatt!

[smatt]

HI Kurt!

[Silent_wings]

:WH:

Hello boys

[smatt]

I just got word... there definitely was NOT any malicious intent on the part of the sound crew!

Frampton's bus was late and White didn't get a full sound check.. so part of the early mix was on the fly...

Karl having equipment difficulties didn't help this... by the time they got to 'changes', Tim, the sound guy, got caught up. At least the last three tunes were spot on.

White played well! it was just a tragedy of circumstances...

that does not excuse Frampton for opening with a COVER TUNE!

with his catalogue and background he could have done better~!

I don't see why Michael... I've got no problems with cover tunes at all really... Bands play others tunes all the time.... Too open with one is kind of suprising though... But hey what so ws it? It ws probably BETTER then any of Peter's songs anyway http://bestsmileys.com/tired/1.gif

[smatt]

:WH:

Hello boys

http://bestsmileys.com/freak/4.gif


Hi Kathy..... ;)

[kmcpro615]

:WH:

Hello boys

Hi Kathy!

[kmcpro615]

Well, any DECENT sound man would have heard the awful sounds, or lack of sounds coming from the stage, and have it corrected in seconds.

When things are running late, and you have a bit of a clusterf-ck going on with two bands trying to get loaded in and set up, sh-t is gonna happen. It's a fact of life. Invariably, the sound company are the first to get there and the last to leave. In my experience, it's the circumstances surrounding the arrival of the band and/or it's equipment that tend to be behind most clusterf-cks.

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[MrZuLu]

better than the next two anyway...

[MrZuLu]

When things are running late, and you have a bit of a clusterf-ck going on with two bands trying to get loaded in and set up, sh-t is gonna happen. It's a fact of life. Invariably, the sound company are the first to get there and the last to leave. In my experience, it's the circumstances surrounding the arrival of the band and/or it's equipment that tend to be behind most clusterf-cks.
agreed

[kmcpro615]

better than the next two anyway...

The next two what?

[smatt]

Oh for heavens sake.. Any *decetn* soundman is goign to pick-up so much missing from the mains really fast.... Come now.... How can you miss THAT.... Yes, it mayv'e been hectic.. But I'm not all that sure he really tried that hard ;) Maybe not intetnional.... There's a difference between doing it and DOING IT....... Poor soundman sit behind the board and slumber occasionally twiddling here or there... Good sounmen get the mix set and maybe walk the hosuee a bit to get the feel for the whole place.... Contantly working to get it better... They've gotten lazy... But so many musicians as well ;) I see it far more often now then in past years. Yes, technology has moved live sound into a new and many times much better area. But it also provides ease of use that causes a lacksidaisical attitude sometimes.

You certainly don't want the opener to have more punch or stand out more then the headliner.. But you also have to work to make them sound decent.... Excuses are like... Well you know...

[kmcpro615]

Oh for heavens sake.. Any *decetn* soundman is goign to pick-up so much missing from the mains really fast.... Come now.... How can you miss THAT.... Yes, it mayv'e been hectic.. But I'm not all that sure he really tried that hard ;)

Many times the guys running the sound at the shows are just guys hired for that night and may not be as familiar w that particular board. They don't all look or feel the same.....or maybe the equipment was acting up. Who knows. There's usually a very logical explanation for every snafu. Circumstances often dictate the situation. Because sh-t does roll more easily downhill, you often find the person at the bottom wearing it. However, that doesn't mean that they shat upon themselves. They just happened to be at the bottom of the hill at the time..........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[smatt]

I wil give you that Kurt.. It's not ALWAYS the techs fault... BUT..... This seems pretty glaring... I mean.. We're missing 1 whole man.. Plus the KICK in the mains.. I mean come on now... That would be pretty obvious.... Maybe they were THAT late and he was THAT busy...... :thinking:

[kmcpro615]

I wil give you that Kurt.. It's not ALWAYS the techs fault... BUT..... This seems pretty glaring... I mean.. We're missing 1 whole man.. Plus the KICK in the mains.. I mean come on now... That would be pretty obvious.... Maybe they were THAT late and he was THAT busy...... :thinking:

I'll give you a "for instance". I was given all of about two minutes to set up and sound check at all three Syn dates that I played. On the first night at Martyrs, it took them 45 minutes to locate two open channels *that worked* to accomodate me and Jim and get us up and running, and after that we had to wait another 20 minutes for them to finish setting the lights....for the Syn. It was only about an hour late from the time my itinerary had me scheduled to go on...........

Now if you are me, who do you blame? Do you care? The itinerary I was given wasn't even close. What good is it gonna do to try and make it someones fault? I still had another night to get through, and by being a nice guy about it all, no doubt saved myself a lot of grief. The payoff was that the second night, things went perfectly and we wound up getting a FOH board mix recording capturing that whole evening that will wind up being half of my next cd that cost me absolutely nothing and ultimately wound up getting me a deal. When you *truly* have something at stake, you learn to pick your fights very carefully. Sometimes the best fights are the ones you walk away from. It ain't always about blame. It's about the outcome you want to acheive......

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[float_your_climb]

Thanks for the White review, Mr. Zulu. :D

[smatt]

I'll give you a "for instance". I was given all of about two minutes to set up and sound check at all three Syn dates that I played. On the first night at Martyrs, it took them 45 minutes to locate two open channels *that worked* to accomodate me and Jim and get us up and running, and after that we had to wait another 20 minutes for them to finish setting the lights....for the Syn. It was only about an hour late from the time my itinerary had me scheduled to go on...........

Well.... I could comment but I won't not on ANYTHING from THAT debacle. :thinking: I guess I just did.... So I might add it's important to PAY the crew, then they are far more likely to perform. You however had no part in that..... Also respect comes to play in such things. When the crew doesn't respect who they're working for.. Well.....

Now if you are me, who do you blame? Do you care? The itinerary I was given wasn't even close. What good is it gonna do to try and make it someones fault? I still had another night to get through, and by being a nice guy about it all, no doubt saved myself a lot of grief. The payoff was that the second night, things went perfectly and we wound up getting a FOH board mix recording capturing that whole evening that will wind up being half of my next cd that cost me absolutely nothing and ultimately wound up getting me a deal. When you *truly* have something at stake, you learn to pick your fights very carefully. Sometimes the best fights are the ones you walk away from. It ain't always about blame. It's about the outcome you want to acheive......
KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

Well I'm glad it worked out for you in the end Kurt. :thinking: I hope that deal isn't the one that was rumoured though.... You may be counting your grains of rice before the typhoon destroys the paddies...

But good luck in any case..... :smurf:

[kmcpro615]

Well.... I could comment but I won't not on ANYTHING from THAT debacle. :thinking: I guess I just did.... So I might add it's important to PAY the crew, then they are far more likely to perform. You however had no part in that..... Also respect comes to play in such things. When the crew doesn't respect who they're working for.. Well.....

The "debacle" has nothing to do with any of this. We veered off the review and started discussing the ins and outs of snafus, of which I have experienced plenty in my 30 plus year professional career. FYI, the crew in question here were not any of the 3 tech guys traveling with the Syn. It was the house techs and their house equipment. Jeff Gex did not work the board while I was on. It was a local dude, and he more than made up for any anxiety I experienced on night one. If the house techs did not get paid, it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with the aforementioned "debacle" you like to reference.

Well I'm glad it worked out for you in the end Kurt. :thinking: I hope that deal isn't the one that was rumoured though.... You may be counting your grains of rice before the typhoon destroys the paddies...

But good luck in any case..... :smurf:

I'll be able to talk about this more soon. That will be another subject for another thread on another day.

At any rate, I'm sure Alan White will survive *this* debacle and move on to the next show. He is a pro's pro........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[smatt]

The "debacle" has nothing to do with any of this. We veered off the review and started discussing the ins and outs of snafus, of which I have experienced plenty in my 30 plus year professional career. FYI, the crew in question here were not any of the 3 tech guys traveling with the Syn. It was the house techs and their house equipment. Jeff Gex did not work the board while I was on. It was a local dude, and he more than made up for any anxiety I experienced on night one. If the house techs did not get paid, it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with the aforementioned "debacle" you like to reference.



I'll be able to talk about this more soon. That will be another subject for another thread on another day.

At any rate, I'm sure Alan White will survive *this* debacle and move on to the next show. He is a pro's pro........

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

:lol: No need to explain.. I've figured it out.. Good luck :rolleyes:

[Buglunch]

Yesterday at the benefit outside at Providence Farm we had to jam the three of us into a hot little gazebo in the sun really fast and play with no weekly practise- bandleader's guitar was distirted and melding his dead pickup batteries with the black soundmna's gear in the hot sun and the always-new setups.........good thing we'd done it last year on the 21st- the day Robert Moog passed on.

There's never time to work out the kinks and we have to pack up and evac fast so our Scottish friend Mahri could do her solo set. She did well because the sound was all massaged for HEr pickup----- so I took a load of apples home from the trees and went to the mainstage where my blues buddies were playing. My bandleader lent the mainstage two of our amps and they sounded LOUD and great....a bit TOO great.
:sneaky:

Win-win, oops!
:rcking:

I'll post a review of Alan when he drum-clinics us here in Victoria.