The 'Close to the Edge' Sound Quality thread

[CybrKhatru]

Hi fellow travelers...

I'm doing a series of threads regarding the sound quality of various classic records. This is a place to tell us your favorite sounding pressing/version, and WHY.

We'll start with the album which may well win the Elimination Tournament...CLOSE TO THE EDGE.

It's been reissued countless times on LP and CD, many of which vary in the sonics department.

Which ones did you have? The original US or UK LP? The new Rhino remastered CD? The collectible MoFi LP? The first CD released in the mid 80s?
Didja have all of 'em?

For the halibut, I'm going to the trouble of posting the catalog numbers, in case you don't know which version you have. I am having difficulty finding catalog numbers for the UK and European pressings, so if you know any, please post them in this thread (or PM me) and I will add them to this post! (I'll be adding and correcting the catalog numbers as I find them...)


LP (US)
Atlantic SD-7244 (orig pressings)
Atlantic SD-19133 (reissues)
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab MFSL-1-077 (audiophile pressing)

LP (UK/EUR)
Atlantic K50012

CD (US)
Atlantic 19133-2 (first run - mid-80s)
Atlantic 82666-2 (1994 remaster)
Atlantic AMCY- (Japanese HDCD)
Rhino/Elektra R2 73390 (2003 reissue w/bonus tracks)

So....Which one(s) were your favorite(s) and WHY? Don't forget the why, please. That's the intent and purpose of this thread, after all!

--Matt

[Yes_Fan_4_Life26]

I have the 1994 remaster. Its all fine dandy, great sound. Though I do regret not getting the RHINO version, everybody says that the drum mix is really up there, and this really teases my ears whenever I see or hear about the RHINO version.

[jaynote1]

damn.....i dont know which one i have, a lot of my cds are in storage....i stumble across some of them periodically when i am searching for something else, but i have yet to come across CTTE....but the title of this thread intrigued me, and got me thinking about the vinyl i used to listen to on my cheap little stereo....you should have seen me the first time i heard it on cd, i flipped out when i realized all that i had been missing all those years!!!.....there was so much more to the music and vocals than i knew existed, and it just made it all that much more exceptional!...anyway, i will attempt to find the cd that i have, and will report back as to which copy i possess....(although i believe it is the 94 remaster, that would have been about the time that I bought the cd..........)...........

[Scottie]

LP (US)
Atlantic SD-19133 (reissues)

CD (US)
Atlantic 82666-2 (1994 remaster)
Rhino/Elektra R2 73390 (2003 reissue w/bonus tracks)

Rhino!! BAM!!!

Reduced hiss from the '94 remaster, fantastic mix, none of the LP's added percussion noises (from over playing it) ;)

[YesForSure.]

I've got the original North American pressing on LP, and the 2003 Rhino remaster. I can't really judge the LP anymore, as it's seen so many spins that whenever the needle touches it it sounds like i'm frying a pack of bacon. the Rhino one has very good, soaring highs, and Chris's bass is sounding better than ever.

I very much like this idea for the albums, I'm increasing in amount of care for sound quality lately.

Gaurenteed that Japanese HDCD would give the Rhino a run for it's money. I'm picking up the Japanese Tales version of that HDCD eventually, maybe when I can afford some proper equipment.
I'll even be able to appreciate my Oldfield CD's more.

[MrZuLu]

I would reserve judgement until you hear the NJPAC 11-11-2002 rendition!

untouched live!

[MrZuLu]

sorry that was thread crapping... please forgive...http://yesfans.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[khalpin]

I have the original CD release and that's all I've ever heard as none of my friends listen to Yes. Unless you count hearing a track or two off of "Yesyears" or "In A Word".

I also have the record on vinyl that I bought second hand. But that was just to have the artwork and lyrics. I don't own a record player. Not since about 1982 anyway.

[CybrKhatru]

Guaranteed that Japanese HDCD would give the Rhino a run for it's money. I'm picking up the Japanese Tales version of that HDCD eventually, maybe when I can afford some proper equipment.
I'll even be able to appreciate my Oldfield CD's more.

Regarding the Japanese HDCD of CTTE: Don't be too sure of that....take it from someone who forked over the dough for one!

Granted, I do not have an HDCD player, but the CTTE Japanese HDCD was mastered waaaay too hot....so hot, in fact that it suffers from some digital clipping and distortion. Ditto with Fragile. Maybe that distortion and clipping disappear on an HDCD player, but I honestly don't know.

In general the HDCDs are a mixed bag IMHO, at least when played on non-HDCD-encoded equipment.

In a way...that's one of the reasons I wanted to start this thread...to not only get other people's takes on the sound, but also to share mine, and try to help save some folks $$$$ in a few cases, hopefully!!!

---Matt

[CybrKhatru]

OK....I'll weigh in on this one now.

It took a while, but I found us a decent copy of the original US Atlantic LP. I haven't spun it in a while, but it sounds beautiful. It's really tough to find a copy of CTTE without end-groove distortion....when I was buying used copies I would sample the end of Siberian and the end of CTTE to see if there was damage!

Now...in CD format, there are many versions of CTTE, and they all sound different. At one time we had 4 versions (orig edition, 1994 remaster, Japanese HDCD, and the 2003 Rhino). Then there's the box sets and compilations, some of which have different
masterings as well. Luckily for us, it appears that only the YesYears box set had any noise reduction applied (grrrrrrrrrrr). Remember when we were told that tape hiss was evil? Well....what they didn't tell us is: if you remove tape hiss, you remove "musical information" of potentially all kinds. Thanks but no thanks...I'll take the hiss. It was recorded analog, after all!

It's a thorny mess. Yes certainly isn't the only artist with multiple masterings (Hendrix anyone?), and I'm very aware that each person's taste is different. Some people like a lot of low end; others need to hear more mids, or a bright top end. Also...it may depend on your equipment. Ever upgrade your system before, and find that things REALLY sound different after that upgrade? Does one disc sound really good in your car, and crappy at home, or vice versa? It's enough to drive anyone nuts.

I'm not done comparing CD masterings yet, but so far here's my take on it (ranked):

1) The original Atlantic CD 19133-2, mastered by Barry Diament. SURPRISE!!!!! "BLASPHEMY!", you may be tempted to cry. But, friends....IMO this version is closest to the album. It probably was not mastered from the original tapes; chances are it was mastered from an LP production copy, as this was common practice at the CD's outset. I may be biased; this is the first version of the album I owned (and the version which made me go nuts for the album), so I'm very familiar with it. If you had the LP and want that sound again, this is probably the one for you. It's EQ'ed pretty "flat" to my ears, as are many of the first Yes CDs...if one wants extra treble or bass one can just turn the controls up! :D

2) The 2003 Rhino R2 73390. Perhaps from a better source, since there is a little less hiss, but supposedly the original masters for Side 2 are still AWOL. The high end and the high mids are a little more aggressive on this release. In the final analysis it may be a matter of taste which version one prefers; to my ears this CTTE is too aggressive. I find that the high end hurts my ears after a while, whereas I can crank up the old Atlantic disc and my ears are fine, fine, fine!

Tied for 3) The Japanese HDCD and the Atlantic 1994 remaster

The Japanese HDCD sounds like it's from a good source, VERY dynamic, but it was mastered too hot. Also, the bass and treble are VERY pumped up. Sadder still, it's the only place one can hear Siberian Khatru without the tape dropouts at the beginning (listen to Bruford's ride cymbal on the right channel). A missed opportunity for sure. Maybe it sounds better in HDCD. I don't know. (ADDENDUM: My friend Dave not only has all the Yes HDCDs, he also has an HDCD system, so very shortly we will be able to hear this release on the correct equipment. I'll post an update when this happens!)

As for the Atlantic 1994 remaster (done by Joe Gastwirt) I remember it sounding good, but kind of "smoothed out", especially when compared to the others listed above. I'd very much like to confirm this: would anyone be willing to send me a CDR copy of it? We no longer have our copy, so I'm working off of memory. At the time I thought it was wonderful, but I had nothing to use for comparison back then.

So, as you can see...it's a mixed bag, depending on what kind of sound you like!!

Please keep the comments coming. I'm sure some of you (heck, maybe a lot of you) may disagree with this. I'm interested to hear responses!!

Thanks for taking the time to read this novel....
--Matt

[CybrKhatru]

I wanted to bump this thread, but also add something:

Please understand that I'm not trying to alienate anyone or criticize anyone's ears. As everyone hears things differently, what I like might not be what another person likes, and vice versa. It's all very subjective.

Also--PLEASE don't let the technical or "audiophile" nature of this thread prevent or inhibit any of you from posting. I've started this thread out of a love for the music and a genuine curiosity regarding what all of you, my brethren, hear and think.

Thanks...!

---Matt

[Imperatrix]

1) The original Atlantic CD 19133-2, mastered by Barry Diament. SURPRISE!!!!! "BLASPHEMY!", you may be tempted to cry. But, friends....IMO this version is closest to the album. It probably was not mastered from the original tapes, but so what? I may be biased; this is the version of the album I originally owned, so I'm very familiar with it. If you had the LP and want that sound again, this is probably the one for you. It's EQ'ed pretty "flat" to my ears, as are many of the first Yes CDs...if one wants extra treble or bass one can just turn the controls up! :D

2) The 2003 Rhino R2 73390. Perhaps from a better source, since there is a little less hiss, but supposedly the original masters for Side 2 are still AWOL. The high end is a little more aggressive on this release. In the final analysis it may be a matter of taste which version one prefers; to my ears this CTTE is too aggressive. I find that the high end hurts my ears after a while, whereas I can crank up the old Atlantic disc and my ears are fine, fine, fine!

Tied for 3) The Japanese HDCD and the Atlantic 1994 remaster

The Japanese HDCD sounds like it's from a good source, VERY dynamic, but it was mastered too hot. Also, the bass and treble are VERY pumped up. Sadder still, it's the only place one can hear Siberian Khatru without the tape dropouts at the beginning (listen to Bruford's ride cymbal on the right channel). A missed opportunity for sure. Maybe it sounds better in HDCD. I don't know.

I remember the Atlantic 1994 remaster sounding good, but kind of "smoothed out", especially when compared to the others listed above. I'd very much like to confirm this: would anyone be willing to send me a CDR copy of it? We no longer have our copy, so I'm working off of memory. At the time I thought it was wonderful, but I had nothing to use for comparison back then.

I recall when we researched all these (well, except '94), and my opinion was quite close to yours: the original Atlantic CD was my favorite. However, the '03 Rhino more than "hurts my ears after a while" so I found it completely unlistenable, and I was not at all impressed with the HDCD.

[bike]

I just got the Rhino version a few days ago, since my Atlantic remaster is getting worn out. Yeah, Bruford is WAY WAY WAY up in the mix. I've only had a chance to listen to "Close to the Edge" so far, but on headphones during the verse parts it feels like he's playing his kit right above your head. Not too happy about that. But it's still a great album, after all.

[JL]

I have the 94 remaster and a cassette copy I made of the vinyl 20 years ago (flip side Fragile vinyl), which I just recently listened to in the car and it still sounds great. I've heard the original CD and I found it underwhelming compared to the 94.

I have thus far limited my Rhino remaster purchases to GFTO, Tormato, and Drama, since the addition of bonus material made them must haves. Am I missing out on anything?

[CybrKhatru]

I have the 94 remaster and a cassette copy I made of the vinyl 20 years ago (flip side Fragile vinyl), which I just recently listened to in the car and it still sounds great. I've heard the original CD and I found it underwhelming compared to the 94.

I have thus far limited my Rhino remaster purchases to GFTO, Tormato, and Drama, since the addition of bonus material made them must haves. Am I missing out on anything?

JL--

IMO, that depends on whether or not the alternate versions/studio run-throughs hold any interest for you. The CTTE bonuses are interesting---I really like the alternate version/mix of And You And I....it shows just how much went into the songwriting and arranging process, as this version has a different ending, and a VERY different build-up to the ending!

I am going to do similar threads on the other Yes albums in coming days/weeks...it would be a good way to put everyone's thoughts about the releases (including reissues and bonus material) in one place. So stay tuned! :D

[Earl Grey]

I have the original Atlantic Vinyl LP of CTTE, from 1972.

I have the first CD remaster, from Ocean View Digital.

...And I have the new Rhino CD remaster.

Ocean View is the worst, although it's not as bad as it could have been.

I like the Rhino Remaster: Chris is WAAY up there in the mix, which is cool. Deliniated. Howe too. A fine job.

But I always return to the original mix from 1972, as the ultimate rendering of my favorite album ever. There is a certain warmth and presence to the LP, that's been approached by Rhino, but never quite attained.

So, for me, the vinyl is the thing.

Next!

:yesbird:

[RickyG]

All I have is the US Vinyl, UK vinyl and Rhino remaster.

I quite like the Rhino remaster though I'll agree the high end is overdone a bit too much. Too bright, so I turn the treble down a notch to compensate. I've said this around here sometime ago: I am convinced that all these remastering "geniuses" are overworked and their ears are fatigued and/or damaged from too many years in the studio, so they need to hype the high end to make it sound great to themselves. Additionally they are doing it on the highest quality distortion free playback system so the high end is being transmitted flawlessly. When you put it on consumer grade systems, depending on the quality of the speakers, the high end is going to distort - even on very good expensive consumer speakers. It isn't necessarily going to sound like "distortion" in an obvious way, but it will make for a harsh high frequency experience on our ears.

Yes JL you are missing something on the Rhino: the bonus track alternate version of "And You and I". This is a gem!!! Parts of it are the exact takes that ended up on the final version. But parts of it are very different, as in entirely different arrangements. And one particular passage hadn't been written yet, which they later wrote, recorded and spliced in.

It's also worthwhile for the booklet notes and photos. A great package.

By the way, I love my UK vinyl!! It blows away the American vinyl. The ideal version for my ears would combine the best qualities of the UK vinyl with the best qualities of the Rhino remaster.

[RickyG]

Just a comment on remastering:

There are several mentions here of Bruford or whomever being "up in the mix" on a particular version. Most of us probably know this, but if not, remastering is not remixing.

The mixes are the exact same on all of these versions.

When remastering, various specific ranges of frequencies are either cut or boosted. Cutting frequencies, particularly in different mid-range shelves, will open up the sound, clean out the mud and allow more definition and separation to be heard.

But when this is done it is done to everything together. So whatever instruments are in a particular range, all are affected. The result may be that some things stand out more clearly than before over others, but the actual mix hasn't really changed.

Easiest to bring up the bass, because there usually isn't much down there except bass, and bass drum.

[mmmYes]

I had this on cassette only for the longest time. I will let you imagine how good that sounded. :lmao:

Well, I will add that it sounded pretty darn magical when it was serving as the soundtrack for my first acid trip!

[Earl Grey]

[QUOTE=RickyG]...I am convinced that all these remastering "geniuses" are overworked and their ears are fatigued and/or damaged from too many years in the studio...

Oh gawd. Spot-on. :dog:

[rahtreelimbs]

I don't have any re-masters.............yet!!! Looking forward to getting one. Which one is recommended to a yes-file???

I always thought, after listening to the vinyl version for all those years, that Bruford sounded just like his attitude toward Yes at that time............very tired!!!

Before anyone flames me for the aforementioned comment it is not his drumming at all but the light touch that the "original" vinyl gives you.............hope this makes sense!!!

[YesForSure.]

Which one is recommended to a yes-file???
Tales from Topographic Oceans!

[RickyG]

Which one is recommended to a yes-file???


Tales From Topographic Oceans, definitely!!! This is the remaster of remasters IMO.

I just listened to and compared the first 10 minutes of UK vinyl with the entire CTTE title track Rhino.

Obvious results, UK vinyl warmer, Rhino remaster brighter and greater clarity. But NOT a whole lot of difference really. Rhino way too harsh on Rick's church organ section. But beyond that I could handle the brightness.

On the whole CTTE is mixed MUCH BETTER from beginning through Get Up/Get Down, than it is after Get Up/Get Down.


One important remembering: Bruford freaking RULES!!!

Yes, he's a light touch drummer, jazz approach, not heavy-handed rock basher. And his playing freaking RULES!!! Did I say that already? Dear Mr. White can't hold a candle to Bill's playing on this song and album.


PS - Can anyone explain the derivation of "can't hold a candle to"???

[Canonsong]

Yes Bruford rules
As to your question a 30 second google returned the following answer...

Meaning: To be far less competent or have far less skills than someone else.

Example: When it comes to performance, White can't hold a candle to Bruford. :O)

Origin: Before electric lights, someone performing a task in the dark needed a helper to hold a candle to provide light while the task was performed. Much as a helper might hold a flashlight today.
Holding the candle is of course the less challenging role. Someone who is not even qualified to hold the candle is much less competent than the person performing the actual task.

[RickyG]

Origin: Before electric lights, someone performing a task in the dark needed a helper to hold a candle to provide light while the task was performed. Much as a helper might hold a flashlight today.
Holding the candle is of course the less challenging role. Someone who is not even qualified to hold the candle is much less competent than the person performing the actual task.

Interesting origin, thanks.

In all fairness to Alan White, I would say that he is qualified to hold the candle. Not nearly qualified to perform Bruford's amazingly creative drumming on CTTE, that's for certain, but I suppose he is qualified to hold the candle. ;)

[CybrKhatru]

I quite like the Rhino remaster though I'll agree the high end is overdone a bit too much. Too bright, so I turn the treble down a notch to compensate. I've said this around here sometime ago: I am convinced that all these remastering "geniuses" are overworked and their ears are fatigued and/or damaged from too many years in the studio, so they need to hype the high end to make it sound great to themselves. Additionally they are doing it on the highest quality distortion free playback system so the high end is being transmitted flawlessly. When you put it on consumer grade systems, depending on the quality of the speakers, the high end is going to distort - even on very good expensive consumer speakers. It isn't necessarily going to sound like "distortion" in an obvious way, but it will make for a harsh high frequency experience on our ears.

By the way, I love my UK vinyl!! It blows away the American vinyl. The ideal version for my ears would combine the best qualities of the UK vinyl with the best qualities of the Rhino remaster.

Hi Rich!

Regarding mastering engineers: I think (lately in particular) the people writing their paychecks have instructed them to make everything HOT and BRIGHT and LOUD. If you do some Googling about "mastering wars" you'll find lots of info about this. Sad result of this: when the bass and highs are tweaked in the mastering process, it is so severe (as you very eloquently put it) that a) the midrange is sacrificed (which is where a lot of the music and ambience can reside), and b) the discs become "ear-bleeders"; i.e. a good deal of exposure to them may hurt your ears.

Every time one of my favorite albums is remastered these days, I proceed with caution, and hope that these "modern day" mastering "ethics" are not applied to decades-old recordings. Quite frequently, and sadly, they are.

And now, you've got my interest piqued about the UK vinyl....I must seek one out!! ;)

---Matt

[Scottie]

I will probably repeat this in my mind and hopefully never again in writing..

You are all NUTS!

This much I will repeat… I LOVE IT!!!

I was a bit sarcastic in my original post (who me???)

My albums are all pristine... never lent them out for viewing.. or playing. They were always my prized possessions. I’m so possessive, so materialistic yet another thread cropper ;) Never thought I would replace any of them and I have read of the tragic experiences of others losing everything.. Floods, fires, no money…. I feel so foolish sometimes making so much of so little….

I Never intended to replace any of them ever. Who ever said I couldn’t change with the times haha. Anyway, back here again....
digital without the feedback you can talk about warm sound blah blah… No comparison. Good equipment, digital sound. !!!

All my vinyl is packed away…
My daughter has to go to college one day, hopefully my collection will pay for books…. Someday

HOT/ COLD?? if it's distorded my ears bleed too

[CybrKhatru]

I will probably repeat this in my mind and hopefully never again in writing..

You are all NUTS!

This much I will repeat… I LOVE IT!!!



:lmao: :lmao:

Yeah, we are all nuts. Why else would I start a thread like this?! :lol:

NUTS about SOUND! NUTS about collecting....now there's a disease in need of an Anonymous organization....C.A.!

---Matt, laughing as ever

[CybrKhatru]

In fact...I am SO nuts about this topic....

I plan to do a CDR of 20-second snippets from the various sources, level-match them, and do a shoot-out for myself, to see if I agree with my assessment. What a waste of a CDR, eh? :lmao: Maybe, maybe not...;)

Folks, thanks for all the responses. I'd like this one to linger a while longer before moving on to another album.

---Matt

[RickyG]

My US vinyl is original pressing number. UK vinyl purchased around 1979 - 1981 I imagine.

Once I discovered that UK pressings were almost always printed on better vinyl, packaging printed on better paper, and the mastering was more "audiophile" then I began getting UK copies of my favorite albums.

The most common generalization about UK vs. US mastering was that the UK albums had a stronger thicker bottom end. Additionally, because the vinyl and pressing was of a higher standard the high end was cleaner and less distortion.

Italian pressings tended to be the best quality.... German also usually really good.

So I have both US and UK copies of:
Fragile
CTTE
GFTO

GENESIS:
Nursery Chryme
Foxtrot
Live
The Lamb
Trick of the Tail

KING CRIMSON:
Lark's Tongues
Poseidon
Starless...

GENTLE GIANT:
Octopus
Free Hand
Playing The Fool

Often times there were interesting little, and not so little changes in the graphics.

On the UK CTTE, the silver outline around the YES logo was printed with a 5th color true silver.
On the US version it's just a 4 color process pseudo-silver, looks grey by comparison.

Also the inner sleeve UK was printed on MUCH BETTER paper.

Yes Scottie, I am quite nuts about this!!!

[Scottie]

On the UK CTTE, the silver outline around the YES logo was printed with a 5th color true silver.
On the US version it's just a 4 color process pseudo-silver, looks grey by comparison.

Also the inner sleeve UK was printed on MUCH BETTER paper.

Yes Scottie, I am quite nuts about this!!!
Damn!
you made me do it.
NUTS!



still love it!

[bike]

Interesting origin, thanks.

In all fairness to Alan White, I would say that he is qualified to hold the candle. Not nearly qualified to perform Bruford's amazingly creative drumming on CTTE, that's for certain, but I suppose he is qualified to hold the candle. ;)

Of course you're right about the remasters not being remixed, but I just Rhino (or whoever directed the remastering process) decided to emphasize the drums somehow. Speaking of which, I kind of agree about White. He's a great rock drummer, while Bruford of course has a jazzy style that makes his work on CTTE interesting (although I really like his drumming a little bit more on the 73-74 King Crimson albums more than on his Yes albums). I've heard complaints about his drumming on CTTE though, that he can't "play straight" and has to complicate everything while White keeps it straightforward. I've heard a lot of the Alan White CTTEs, and I like both styles.

Bruford's work on Red is the best drumming I've ever heard, though. I love that sheet metal.

[CybrKhatru]

Ricky---

You probably already knew this, but in addition to UK vinyl, Japanese vinyl tends to be a winner when it comes to sound quality...I've got more Genesis Japanese vinyl than Yes Japanese vinyl, but I'm always looking for both UK and Japanese pressings!

Gonna BUMP this thread one more time before moving on to a different album!

---Matt

[Scottie]

A friend of mine put on Revolver from his Japanese vinyl collection containing all of the Beatles' albums. It is a rare box set printed/pressed years ago.

Sounded incredible from what I remember. He admitted to me that due to this days of reckless abandon delving into certain substances some of these albums are in less than playable condition.

[rahtreelimbs]

Whan I read about these "hot" re-masters I always go back to thinking about the "GTR" album!!!

Decent music IMO............but a production/engineering POS.

[Albedo]

Well, I just dug mine up and wow, I have an original pressing, SD7244! I had no idea. I haven't been able to play it for some time as my current receiver has no phono input. I should really remedy that because it's in pristine condition. My old CD is the original SD 19133-2, and I've got the new Rhino. Hey I love them all.

With regard to ear bleed, my original Relayer CD was terrible. The Rhino seems much less harsh on the high end.

[Albedo]

So just for fun I just back-to-backed Siberian Khatru from the original issue CD with the Rhino remaster a couple of times. The orignal has more bass but it's a bit muddy like it was recorded on the other side of a wall sometimes. The Rhino definitely has less low bass response but it's cleaner. Other than that, not so much difference that I can tell. I don't know, I like lots of bass but I like the texture of it more on the Rhino. I just have to use my bass knob!

[Hill St.]

I have the original pressing LP,the Rhino re-master and a cassette(Hey Lisa!).I'm partial, probably due to sentimentality for the LP.It was the 2nd album I ever purchased(Fragile being the 1st).

[allpurechance]

Hi Rich!

Regarding mastering engineers: I think (lately in particular) the people writing their paychecks have instructed them to make everything HOT and BRIGHT and LOUD. If you do some Googling about "mastering wars" you'll find lots of info about this. Sad result of this: when the bass and highs are tweaked in the mastering process, it is so severe (as you very eloquently put it) that a) the midrange is sacrificed (which is where a lot of the music and ambience can reside), and b) the discs become "ear-bleeders"; i.e. a good deal of exposure to them may hurt your ears.

Every time one of my favorite albums is remastered these days, I proceed with caution, and hope that these "modern day" mastering "ethics" are not applied to decades-old recordings. Quite frequently, and sadly, they are.

And now, you've got my interest piqued about the UK vinyl....I must seek one out!! ;)

---Matt

And yet, Rich and Matt -

With Yes, I've always pushed the bass AND the treble way up, way, way up!Is it, was it, just their dynamic range was/is so much broader?Other bands, too have required this for my ears, but it was Yes I think, originally which had me pushing up that bass and treble all the time(and almost all the way!).

So, since the remasters...well, I still push those levels up!
:lmao:

As for which one is recommeded - said it before, and I'll say it again:Topographic and Tormato seem to have benefited the most from the process.So much so that they almost seemed like new albums again after they were rereleased!

But, they're all good!

[allpurechance]

...and, even though the remasters are wonderful...
...and even though my original vinyl is now long, long gone...
Here I must agree with Mr. Grey.
Nothing beat that original vinyl sound.Nothing!The first time I ever listened to Close To The Edge, it was 40 minutes (okay, about 38, LOL) of "nothing else in the world exists at this time."

That such sound did indeed exist, that it could be contained upon simple grooves in plastic...

...STILL boggles the mind, nay?!

[YesJen357]

That such sound did indeed exist, that it could be contained upon simple grooves in plastic...

...STILL boggles the mind, nay?!
N
Definitely not for me.
That 'snap'...'crackle'...and 'pop' of vinyl is thankfully a long lost, almost forgotten memory.
Long live digital!

[CybrKhatru]

...and, even though the remasters are wonderful...
...and even though my original vinyl is now long, long gone...
Here I must agree with Mr. Grey.
Nothing beat that original vinyl sound.Nothing!The first time I ever listened to Close To The Edge, it was 40 minutes (okay, about 38, LOL) of "nothing else in the world exists at this time."

That such sound did indeed exist, that it could be contained upon simple grooves in plastic...

...STILL boggles the mind, nay?!

Yes....when I really want to envelop myself in the "experience" I put on the LP.

I've grown to appreciate the 'snap' 'crackle' 'pop' of vinyl...just as long as there isn't too much of it! LOL....

Thanks folks for being so vocal on this thread...it's exactly what I was hoping for!

I'll keep this open, but am going to start a new thread for a different album.

---Matt

[shortexchanges]

The Yes Years Remaster Of The Original Studio In A Sonice Masterpiece! The First 4 Minutes Are Sublime!!

[SadPreacher]

i have to agree....nothing sounded better than my original LP of CTTE....that album still holds the record for the album that i had listened to consecutively....ever....i would safely say that i listened to it at least 15 times before i spun something else....then right back to CTTE....what a classic album....my god...it can nearly bring tears to my eyes....

[CybrKhatru]

BUMP...

$3 for a near minty UK Close to the Edge last week at Amoeba.

Sounds even better than the US album, which was no slouch. :headset:

[Timmo]

For Matt:

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[CybrKhatru]

:dog:

Maybe Version 2.0 will have some of the, ehrm, bugs worked out. ;)

PRICELESS, man. :lmao:

[Buglunch]

I've got the original North American pressing on LP, and the 2003 Rhino remaster. I can't really judge the LP anymore, as it's seen so many spins that whenever the needle touches it it sounds like i'm frying a pack of bacon. the Rhino one has very good, soaring highs, and Chris's bass is sounding better than ever.

I very much like this idea for the albums, I'm increasing in amount of care for sound quality lately.

Gaurenteed that Japanese HDCD would give the Rhino a run for it's money. I'm picking up the Japanese Tales version of that HDCD eventually, maybe when I can afford some proper equipment.
I'll even be able to appreciate my Oldfield CD's more.

Was the original Canadian vinyl pressing the same as US?
We tended to get our own or Brit imports then. Got that around here but no needle/pre-amp to play it. Always loved that one the most.

[MirokuLuvstheGirls]

:dog:

Maybe Version 2.0 will have some of the, ehrm, bugs worked out. ;)

PRICELESS, man. :lmao:


Indeed!!

*puts record on iVinyl while in car*

*goes somewhere*

*tries to take record off*

*accidentally bumps record off of iVinyl*

*nearly crashes*

And it's like, 0 gigs....0 gigs....

And I love that accent. "Son of a biyatch!" LMAO!



ON TOPIC: I have....THE REISSUE???? of CTTE on LP......REISSUE?? AND THE BOTTOM OF THE SLEEVE'S TORN...AND THERE'S A THIN LIZZY INNER SLEEVE INSIDE INSTEAD OF THE ORIGINAL CTTE INNER SLEEVE??

I guess I got pwned. :| Anyway, the quality's brilliant...and if I touch my finger to the label....it plays slower....and I get CD-QUALITY SOUND...if I just let the album play without my finger on the label...it's in a higher key...I don't feel like I'm hearing the song...then again, ALL of the vinyl I own are like that...is it because of my player, or is it because they're old records?

Anyway, that's the only version of CTTE that I own....no CD version...yet.

[allpurechance]

Sounds like your turntable is functioning at about 34 rpm.

[Scottie]

For Matt:


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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n33ACfZ45ys" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="353"></embed></OBJECT></P>:dog:

[Dantalion Rides Again]

I never really compared too much. I have probably the original US pressing, or a reissue perhaps ... bought it used around 1989.

Then I had the original CD release, the Atlantic remaster, and finally the Rhino.

I've since rid myself of the first two CD releases, leaving me w/my vinyl and Rhino copies.

My problem is my record player makes everything sound distorted on the high end, especially at the end of the record side.

And, believe it or not, I'm not sure I've even ever listened that closely to the Rhino version.

It's like the Beatles; I'm so overly familiar with this music that often I can't listen to it.

But the varying qualities of all the different editions of CDs these days is absolutely maddening. Especially since the remasters are often disasters.

The three versions of Drama I've heard each bother me for different reasons!

So in a way, I'd prefer not to get into it ... my record player being broke down is a factor. And that there's nowhere in my house that I actually listen to music much these days.

I've got an mp3 player that sounds like crap. My car sounds great though. Like a great stereo on wheels. But in there, you got the sound of the engine, traffic etc ... plus I listen to mp3s in the car anyway. And if there's passengers, forget listening intently.

Why am I telling you all this? Bottom line is I have no real opinion about the different editions of CTTE.

How To Say Nothing Using Hundreds of Words, a book by Kevin Silvia

(It'll sell great among high school students who scratch their heads over essays and long reports.)

[CybrKhatru]

LOL Kevin...

it is maddening, all these damn reissues....



(btw, if you're hearing a lot of distortion at the end of a side, it's time for a new needle)

--The Vinyl Geek

[Scottie]

I never really compared too much. I have probably the original US pressing, or a reissue perhaps ... bought it used around 1989.

Then I had the original CD release, the Atlantic remaster, and finally the Rhino.

I've since rid myself of the first two CD releases, leaving me w/my vinyl and Rhino copies.

My problem is my record player makes everything sound distorted on the high end, especially at the end of the record side.

And, believe it or not, I'm not sure I've even ever listened that closely to the Rhino version.

It's like the Beatles; I'm so overly familiar with this music that often I can't listen to it.

But the varying qualities of all the different editions of CDs these days is absolutely maddening. Especially since the remasters are often disasters.

The three versions of Drama I've heard each bother me for different reasons!

So in a way, I'd prefer not to get into it ... my record player being broke down is a factor. And that there's nowhere in my house that I actually listen to music much these days.

I've got an mp3 player that sounds like crap. My car sounds great though. Like a great stereo on wheels. But in there, you got the sound of the engine, traffic etc ... plus I listen to mp3s in the car anyway. And if there's passengers, forget listening intently.

Why am I telling you all this? Bottom line is I have no real opinion about the different editions of CTTE.

How To Say Nothing Using Hundreds of Words, a book by Kevin Silvia

(It'll sell great among high school students who scratch their heads over essays and long reports.)
Hey it made sense to me. I could have used a copy back in HS. ;)

[CybrKhatru]

Hey it made sense to me. I could have used a copy back in HS. ;)

me too! ;)

[Dantalion Rides Again]

LOL Kevin...

it is maddening, all these damn reissues....



(btw, if you're hearing a lot of distortion at the end of a side, it's time for a new needle)

--The Vinyl Geek

Thanks VG ... I once bought a USED replacement that the guy promised was like-new. It still sounded crap, so I assume he was wrong. I'll have to hunt down a brand new one, and then simply build a room where I can go listen to music.

Hey it made sense to me. I could have used a copy back in HS. ;)

If I ever write it, I'll ship you a copy, but back thru time so that you can use it in HS ... right after I build the time machine. Which will have to come right after I build a music studio.

[CybrKhatru]

Kevin, that's one of the things I like about you. You are ambitious. :D



VG has one more tidbit---if you replace the needle and still hear the distortion, it might be time to replace the album as well....fortunately that is an easy fix. Dollar bins are your friends! :D

[Faceintheplace]

I have an original UK vinyl, as well as the more authentic looking silver around the lettering, the cover feels like crushed cardboard, a bit like the covers of very old hardcover books.

I used to have the Candian vinyl a long time ago. I don't remember much what it sounded like but I seem to remember it was a pretty smooth and even mix. The UK vinyl has alot more defenition in high and low ends.

I have the Rhino cd too and don't have any major issues with how Bill Inglot handled the mixing.

[MirokuLuvstheGirls]

Sounds like your turntable is functioning at about 34 rpm.

Indeed, but the slider is set to 33. How do I get it to stop working at 34?

[chrisklenox]

For me, it's the US vinyl pressing that does it... I scrapped all of the 1994 remasters when the rhino reissues came out "because they are current and they must sound the best!" hehe what the F**k ever! I do think the original cd pressing of Close to the Edge sounded great! A friend of mine had that one and always played it at the music store we worked in together... good times. But yea the vinyl is the best to me... and I promise I am not biassed! I was born in 85' so I grew up with cds and lps not one or the other. :musicb: < yeah... music

[chrisklenox]

Oh one more thing... I HAVENT heard the UK LP or the MFSL LP. So my conclusion is based on incomplete data. sorry. Abort!:xolicon42:

[Earl Grey]

Oh one more thing... I HAVENT heard the UK LP or the MFSL LP. So my conclusion is based on incomplete data. sorry. Abort!:xolicon42:

I'm listening to the original 1972 US pressing of the LP even as I post, and so-far it's the best I've heard (And I've probably heard them all).

I'm not sure if Atlantic Records was trying to beat 'Dark Side Of The Moon' at this point, as far as audial perfection goes Perhaps.

You can actually hear Chris hiccough during the 'I Get Up, I Get Down' bit... :ele: Kiddin'.

I've matched it to the Rhino remaster, I've matched it to pretty much everything I could get my grubby little digits on, which is most every re-issue available, and it's still the warmest, the most detail-oriented, and the finest pressing of Close To The Edge I've heard.

My ears may not be as good as your ears (I have listened to a lot of 'Berlioz' and 12 Tone Stuff. Classical Heavy Metal may be harmful to your health...). :ele:

'Watching All Of The World'...

EG

[CybrKhatru]

Earlie...

You gotta come over and hear this UK pressing. I love the US one, but this one in some ways is even sweeter. :headset:

[MirokuLuvstheGirls]

I'm not sure if Atlantic Records was trying to beat 'Dark Side Of The Moon' at this point, as far as audial perfection goes Perhaps.


I doubt it, as "The Dark Side of the Moon" wouldn't be released until a year later. But you have the original US pressing? I envy you, as I have already said I own the re-issue....with that stupid Thin Lizzy inner sleeve. T_T

[CybrKhatru]

Update:

I'm still holding on to both the US and UK LP since I can't decide which one I like better....yet!


And for CDs....I swear, you gotta try and find that first US Atlantic release. The ones which were pressed in Japan have a dark pink ring around the disc, while the ones pressed in the US have the standard red ring. Honestly, I don't think any CD version beats this one sonically. And you can find them used sometimes as cheap as $5.

I'm just sayin'.....:D

[relayeire]

And for CDs....I swear, you gotta try and find that first US Atlantic release. The ones which were pressed in Japan have a dark pink ring around the disc, while the ones pressed in the US have the standard red ring. Honestly, I don't think any CD version beats this one sonically. And you can find them used sometimes as cheap as $5.

I'm just sayin'.....:D

I know they go for pretty cheap - I dumped all of them some time ago! but we've had this discussion... ;-)

[gathernear]

The only LP I've heard is my original US edition, and I'm happy with it. For CD, the original Atlantic is the way to go. There is no need to get any remastered versions of the CD. I've had the Gastwirt, the Japanese mini LP HDCD, and the Rhino, and wasted a lot of time and money.

[FarFromCentre]

Has anyone heard the MFSL LP of Close To The Edge?

[RobAdams]

I used to have the MFSL Half Speed Master recording of CTTE on the flawless vinyl from Japan. Until the Rhino remaster I really missed this.

The MFSL albums were really great. I shouldn't have sold them all in my drug addiction days! I swear I could hear everything on them.

[CybrKhatru]

I used to have the MFSL CTTE too. Back then I didn't have the best needle on my turntable, so I barely played it.

Kinda wish I had it back now though! Although...it has the dropouts in Siberian Khatru too...just like all the CD releases...

[CloseToTheHedge]

This thread's been awfully helpful to me - I'm stuck between getting the Gastwirt remaster available at the CD shop, or digging around harder for the Rhino releases.

An abridged background: I'm not an audiophile, I go only as far as checking for dynamic compression and stuff in Audacity. No working sound system in this house. Due to necessity I listen to music on headphones almost exclusively, so I guess there's less room for mucking around or something.

Now normally I'd just go with Rhino because of the visuals*, and the extra tracks (although I probably won't listen to them as much as I do for say Time and a Word).

But CTTE is a track I have a bit of a problem with: my username tells you I love the song, but those were the live renditions. From ABWH, no less - both Jeff Berlin and Tony Levin on the boots.
So I find the studio version a lot harder to get used to: therefore for this album the exact way the title track sounds would make a big difference.

I think it's mostly because I simply don't like the studio version itself: the most important part of the song to me is the buildup and climax after "I get up, I get down", and being a snot-nosed brat the studio version of it just felt like an utter letdown.
I'm a bit more used to it now, but since I do want to own the studio version either way...

Which release makes the rush after Wakeman's crescendo sound the least canned? It's got to really explode for me to like it. I also absolutely love Bruford's drums (yes, even those... Simmons...), so I've got to be able to hear them. But I also absolutely do not want a CD that "tires" the ears after repeated listening (although I have DSPs in my audio player that sometimes help) Am I asking for too much?

Going by this thread I think I should go with Rhino after all but what would you - if anyone still reads this thread - recommend? Don't even mention vinyl, please. Thanks in advance.

*Am I the only one who HATES Atlantic's choice of serif font for the CDs? If I were a casual buyer I wouldn't give a second look at Atlantic's "Time and a Word", while I'd be more interested in Rhino's. I s'pose I'm off in the head.

[CybrKhatru]

If you want to hear the best digital rendition of this album, get the original Atlantic CD. There are used copies of it all over the place. And it'll likely be cheaper than either the Gastwirt or the Rhino. :D

[True Believer]

Hi Matt! :wavey:

How was the gig?

[CybrKhatru]

Hi Matt! :wavey:

How was the gig?

HI anne! :wavey: :hearts:


It was good. I am sore. :lmao: Today is a day of rest.

[CloseToTheHedge]

If you want to hear the best digital rendition of this album, get the original Atlantic CD. There are used copies of it all over the place. And it'll likely be cheaper than either the Gastwirt or the Rhino. :D

Well that was simple. :) Thank you for the reply.

Unfortunately as far as I've looked so far, I've yet to find this mythical bargain bin with Yes CDs in... I'm lucky to find any Yes other than compilations at most places I've been to so far (with reasonable prices).

I could plead for my brother to lug it over from the States as I'd like to do for An Evening of Yes Music Plus, some King Crimson stuff and others, but it'll take so long... guess I can wait a few months, I suppose. Not like I don't have other awesome songs to tide me over during the upcoming examinations, and I can't concentrate when CTTE comes on anyway! :D

[Orbert]

If you want to hear the best digital rendition of this album, get the original Atlantic CD.

Is this the general consensus? CttE was one of the first CDs I ever bought (it was second, I believe), so I'm pretty sure I have an original Atlantic pressing, and years later someone got me a remastered one as a gift, but I always preferred the original. I figured it was because I was more used to it. But if none of the remasters are considered any better, then that's good to know.

I know what my ears prefer, but it's reassuring to know I'm not a freak too.

[CybrKhatru]

Is this the general consensus? CttE was one of the first CDs I ever bought (it was second, I believe), so I'm pretty sure I have an original Atlantic pressing, and years later someone got me a remastered one as a gift, but I always preferred the original. I figured it was because I was more used to it. But if none of the remasters are considered any better, then that's good to know.

I know what my ears prefer, but it's reassuring to know I'm not a freak too.

Hey Orbert

Not really sure if it's the general consensus at YF, but I know a LOT of folks who prefer this version to all the others.

[Orbert]

That's good enough for me. Thanks!

[yes372]

Figures that the original vinyl would be judged the best. Luckily I still have mine (actually two - the one I bought for my then girlfriend and present wife as a birthday gift in 72 is, surprisingly, near mint ;) ).

Unfortunately, I have blindly bought ever new remastered version that hit the street.

Guess it's true what someone once said: "New and improved may not necessarily be the case."

[Roundaboutguitarist]

I fell in love with Yes on the Original vinyl version. I have the Rhino. In a small way, it's like listening to other performances. It's never quite what you fell in love with. When I do the title cut with Roundabout, I always play the original version intro riffs. We don't want our love to change. On the other hand, what the guys have done with And You And I in recent years, makes me wish they'd go back and do it over in the studio. Eddie Offord was George Martin to me in those wondrous days. I like the Rhino. I had the privelage of producing at Ocean Way, wonderful facility, staff seemed a little tense, maybe that's what happened with that release.

We like it extra clean in the studio, but the analog warmth is often missing. When we produced back on 2 inch tape, it always sounded so glorious mixing down, and by the time it was pressed, something wasn't quite the same, another generation of noise was birthed, and we wished the listener would get to hear what we heard first.

A long way of saying what Scottie said, but that's me, I guess. :P Hey Sis, I'm willing to pay the extra!

Matt, I can't wait to play the OC Pavilion in April with you! YOU ARE AWESOME!

[BlueEagle]

%

[AmyK]

If you want to hear the best digital rendition of this album, get the original Atlantic CD. There are used copies of it all over the place. And it'll likely be cheaper than either the Gastwirt or the Rhino. :D

Today I completed my digital collection of CTTE, and I have to agree the original Atlantic wins, hands down.

OK here is my interpretation of the "X-Factor" in Eddie Offord's studio engineering magic:

Groups of tracks that are "forward" are faded in and out like "islands" suspended in a gigantic cavern. The background tracks are more like cumulus clouds on the horizon. These islands are carefully balanced or pivoted on the midrange like a plate centered on a finger.

That said, when any "remastering" is done these islands smear into one another and either fall to the floor or stick to the ceiling - although the features of the islands may be clearer the original audial illusion is destroyed. Even if you cut out the tape hiss, the whole thing begins to sag, so to speak, because you are weakening the suspension point in the midrange.

Those with an intuitive grasp of a fading board and sound meters can see this right?

*
*
*
*
*
Picture levels in each band weighing on each fader (a *) and how you would balance each fade in and fade out of multiple tracks to compose and island, leave in the ambient hiss of the day and add some echo on your "heaviest track" and you're getting close.....

[CybrKhatru]

Today I completed my digital collection of CTTE, and I have to agree the original Atlantic wins, hands down.

OK here is my interpretation of the "X-Factor" in Eddie Offord's studio engineering magic:

Groups of tracks that are "forward" are faded in and out like "islands" suspended in a gigantic cavern. The background tracks are more like cumulus clouds on the horizon. These islands are carefully balanced or pivoted on the midrange like a plate centered on a finger.

That said, when any "remastering" is done these islands smear into one another and either fall to the floor or stick to the ceiling - although the features of the islands may be clearer the original audial illusion is destroyed. Even if you cut out the tape hiss, the whole thing begins to sag, so to speak, because you are weakening the suspension point in the midrange.

Those with an intuitive grasp of a fading board and sound meters can see this right?

*
*
*
*
*
Picture levels in each band weighing on each fader (a *) and how you would balance each fade in and fade out of multiple tracks to compose and island, leave in the ambient hiss of the day and add some echo on your "heaviest track" and you're getting close.....


Spot on, Amy. I wish more people felt this way...

[AmyK]

Thanks Matt, I knew you wouldn't think I was a goofball :)

A little off topic, but I was also listening to some classic Moody Blues tonight (i.e. Question) and similar principles seem to be in play in what was being done in the recording and engineering.

I'm working more out in my mind on this theory, and of course while these groups were imensely talented the key that made these albums gold were these "black art" recording methods.

I'm tempted to find some effects and a big old mixing board to see if I can lend my friends' bands a hand :)

[Meng]

Today I completed my digital collection of CTTE, and I have to agree the original Atlantic wins, hands down.
It sure does. Had to re-buy it after I fell for all the nonsense surrounding remastered issues.

"Remastered" doesn't always mean better and the type of music produced by the likes of Yes and Genesis, where the dynamic range is so important, suffers from the "loudness wars" type of mastering that is inflicted on us these days.

[pablo3]

As for the Atlantic 1994 remaster (done by Joe Gastwirt) I remember it sounding good, but kind of "smoothed out", especially when compared to the others listed above. I'd very much like to confirm this: would anyone be willing to send me a CDR copy of it? We no longer have our copy, so I'm working off of memory. At the time I thought it was wonderful, but I had nothing to use for comparison back then.
Post by CyberKhatru

Interesting idea, comparing the different remasters. As CTTE is my #1 favorite album and has been since its release, I am going to try this soon. I have the vinyl original release I bought in '72, the Gastwirt '94 CD and the Rhino CD.
If you still want a copy of the Gastwirt 94 remaster, I would be glad to send you one. I no longer have a copy of the original Atlantic CD 19133-2, mastered by Barry Diament. That one I'd like to get, if you are interested in a swap. This thread is old, so I'll send a PM so you will see it.

[RickyG]

Old thread but interesting topic....

FWIW - I only have the Rhino remaster and it is definitely disappointing soundwise. (Packaging is great.) I can only compare it to my vinyl, both US and UK, and of course the UK vinyl is the best by far. US vinyl was decent too, but it is rather worn! Though all of those clicks and pops give it context and memory.... ;)

On the other hand, I think the Topographic Oceans Rhino remaster is supreme. I had the Gastwirt remaster and I also have US and UK vinyl, the UK vinyl is good but I'll take the Rhino anyday for this one. Definitely superior to the previous remaster.

[Sharp on Attack]

The FIRST and I mean FIRST CD I bought back in the late 80's when making the switch to CDs only was the original CTTE album. I wasn't that impressed. I prefer the 1994 Atlantic reissue.

[Doctor Flang]

My first Yes album was the 1994 remaster of CTTE. When Rhino's were released i stupidly gave away my '94 copy of CTTE and regretted it afterwards. Rhino's version is so clearly inferior that it makes me wonder why it was released in the first place. Not just is the sound harsh and unpleasent, but it's evident that Rhino used bad source tapes. There's lot's of drop-outs during the title track and in the beginning of "Siberian Khatru". (Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against Rhino's remasters and i actually think their versions of "Relayer" and "Tales" are the best.)

Last week i finally gave up and ordered 1994 copy of CTTE. I received it today, put it in the CD player, and boy does it sound wonderful! Smooth and plaesent. My next step is to buy the Barry Diament version.