Sheet music of "Tales"

[Roberto59]

Dear All,


first of all thanks for reading this post froma newcomer. I am an italian Yes fan since the seventies and only now I have finally some spare time to do what I had always wanted to that is to write some analytical essay on Yes music.

In particular I would like to focus my attention on "Tales" which to me is, musically speaking, the highest point so far reached by our band in terms of composition.

I have read a very good article by John Covach (here: www.ibiblio.org/johncovach/yestales.htm) and unfortunately I have no access to another work I would like to read, which is Bill Martin's "Music of Yes".

My first approach is then a double request:

a - is there anybody who can share a pdf or word copy of Martin's book?

b - is there anybody who can share the sheet music for "Tales"? But careful: I mean the full score partition (so you should be well acquainted with some Yes member or similar)! The simplified versions are not useful for the analysis I am intending.

Demanding, isn't it? But also Yes music is.

God bless you all

See you round here and thanks in advance to every person who will be able to help.

Roberto

[Joe]

Welcome to the site Roberto. Ahh! Another Italian! Welcome!
I'm not from Italy, but you wouldn't know it if you hung out
with my family. Most of them are.

About your question, I think I have the full version sheet
music to Tales. I'll take a look around, and if I do, I'll copy
it to Word, and ship it over to ya!

Welcome again to YESfans

[RickyG]

Welcome to the site Roberto. Ahh! Another Italian! Welcome!
I'm not from Italy, but you wouldn't know it if you hung out
with my family. Most of them are.

About your question, I think I have the full version sheet
music to Tales. I'll take a look around, and if I do, I'll copy
it to Word, and ship it over to ya!

Welcome again to YESfans

The full version sheet music of Tales??? Wow, I didn't know it existed. I have the rediculously simplified versions with all kinds of parts and sections arbitrarily missing.

I'd love to read your analysis when you finish it Roberto59! And by the way welcome to YESFANS!!!

Bill Martin doesn't really do any actual musical analysis in his book. Not in the sense of proper Music Theory and Harmonic Analysis. He devotes about 12 pages to all of Tales, and it's mostly about his somewhat subjective views of the lyrics with a small bit of discussion about some time signature changes and some mention of moods and dynamics and instrumentation in the music. Really it's a very cursory overview with some occasional moments of detail.

Certainly worth reading, particularly if you are going to write an analytic essay yourself, but not a treasure trove of knowledge.

I don't have a scanner, or I would offer to scan the pages in and send them to you. I would imagine someone around here could get the 12 Tales pages scanned and sent to you.

By the way, I am 1/2 Italian, my Mom's parents were Italian immigrants to the US.

[Roberto59]

Dear Joe and Ricky,


thank you very much for your help: I'm looking forward to reading what you'll be able to find so kindly.

I will send here the draft analysis of the first movement of "Tales" when I have finished it in order to have comments on my approach before proceeding with the other three ones.

Any suggestions or material (ie: specific interviews to the band members on "Tales", etc.) will be most welcome.

BTW: which is, according to your knowledge, the live recording of the full "Tales" album with the best sound quality? I would like to add in a comparison between the studio and the live version.


Thanks again and see you round here!

Roberto

Thanks again, see you round here

[Joe]

Roberto,
I'm sorry, but I do not have Tales in full score. I do have basic sheet music for any Tales song. Would you like that?

[Joe]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/joeykeyz/Music/Ritual.jpg

Roberto,
Here's page one of "Ritual". If this looks like
something that would be useful to you, I'll
send you the rest. (Of course, better quality)
28 pages

Joe :yesbird:

[Roberto59]

Gentlemen (Joe and Ricky),


the only printed version of "Tales" I could find here in Italy is the 1977 Warner "Yes complete - vol.2", that contains also other songs.

Joe's page looks similar to the one I have got. The only thing you could do to see if it can be useful for me is to check whether all the instrumental parts between the sung parts are noted, as in my book many of them are completely missing.

Thanks for your help again

Roberto

[RickyG]

Any suggestions or material (ie: specific interviews to the band members on "Tales", etc.) will be most welcome.

BTW: which is, according to your knowledge, the live recording of the full "Tales" album with the best sound quality? I would like to add in a comparison between the studio and the live version.


Thanks again and see you round here!

Roberto


Hi Roberto,

I don't think there is any live recordings of the full "Tales" album available except possibly on bootleg.

However, for Side 1, "The Revealing..." , definitely the best live version in my opinion is on "Keys To Ascension I".

For Side 4, "Ritual", several versions worth listening to:
- "Yesshows" with Moraz on keys.
- "Tsongas" DVD with Wakeman on keys.
- "Yessymphonic" (I have not seen/heard this version.)
- "Magnification" Bonus disc, live Ritual with Khoroshev on keys.

(I don't know what they did in Europe, but here in the States, when "Magnification" was released there were three different limited edition bonus discs included. We had a choice of either "Ritual", "Close To The Edge", or "Gates of Delerium", each taken from the Masterworks tour. Which one you got depended upon which store you bought it at.)

For "the Ancient", of course there is the very rough studio run through version on the Rhino remaster of Tales. But definitely an early unfinished version it is.

A friend of mine actually had a bootleg of the entire Tales live from the '73 Tour. It was horribly recorded..... but still enjoyable as a glimpse into the past.


I also suggest that you make a specific request here for someone to scan the 12 pages from Bill Martin's book and send it to you. (Is the book out of print?)


And one other thing, somewhere around here in a different thread, I recently wrote an analysis of a very small portion of "The Ancient" in response to someone's question. Might be worth locating to see a different perspective.

I look forward to reading your draft of Part 1!!

~Rich

[RickyG]

Gentlemen (Joe and Ricky),


the only printed version of "Tales" I could find here in Italy is the 1977 Warner "Yes complete - vol.2", that contains also other songs.
Roberto
Roberto,

This is the same one I have, and probably the same one Joe has. There was a later "YES Complete" published in the 1990's, I don't have it but I suspect it has the same incomplete versions.

~RG

[RickyG]

Roberto,

FYI, here's the link to the page with "The Ancient" mini-essay I mentioned:

http://www.yesfans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22144&page=3

[Orbert]

I too have the "Yes Complete" books, and I strongly suspect that that's the best we're going to see. The only band I know of that ever published actual scores to their work is Chicago, and those were sketch scores (all parts present, but condensed to two or three staves). I would be very, very surprised if full scores to "Tales" even exist anywhere. The band themselves most likely did not write them down, and anyone who may have undertaken the enormous task of transcribing the work by ear would have a very limited audience for it.

So for your analysis, you'll probably have to do what the rest of us do: use what's available as a starting point, and figure out the rest.

[Roberto59]

Roberto,

FYI, here's the link to the page with "The Ancient" mini-essay I mentioned:

http://www.yesfans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22144&page=3


Thanks Ricky,

I will read it carefully and maybe come back to you on it later on.

[Roberto59]

I too have the "Yes Complete" books, and I strongly suspect that that's the best we're going to see. The only band I know of that ever published actual scores to their work is Chicago, and those were sketch scores (all parts present, but condensed to two or three staves). I would be very, very surprised if full scores to "Tales" even exist anywhere. The band themselves most likely did not write them down, and anyone who may have undertaken the enormous task of transcribing the work by ear would have a very limited audience for it.

So for your analysis, you'll probably have to do what the rest of us do: use what's available as a starting point, and figure out the rest.


Orbert (Robert?),

despite the fact that printed music lacks many bars, it is interesting that you somehow state the fact that Yes (as well as many others) do not write music in the traditional classical notation, but probably use just memos and sketches (which is what all musically uneducated young people do when they start composing some stuff).

If this be the case for Yes as well, then the analysis too would be justified to be informal (at least to some extent), as it would avoid introducing an excessive amount of "intellectualism" which was probably absent in the original compositive process.

Any comments and/or additional info on this subject (informal notation) would be most welcome.

Thanks

[BrianD]

There are plenty of weeds available in the Trading room of various complete Tales shows from 1973 & 74. Possibly the best is the MSG 1974 concert, though I gather it is a mix of several shows done at MSG that tour. However it is still pretty good.

[Joe]

Hi Roberto,
I think everyone is right here. We're never gonna find a full score to Tales.
Personally, I love just listening to it, and playing what I hear. Being the
YES freako weirdo that I am....it usually comes out pretty close.

[QuietInside]

There is a full score of Close to the Edge available via Guitar Pro......has ALL the key parts, bass, all the guitar tracks etc. It's a beautiful thing to read the score whilst listening to the music.....makes you appreciate it even more if thats possible.

[Orbert]

despite the fact that printed music lacks many bars, it is interesting that you somehow state the fact that Yes (as well as many others) do not write music in the traditional classical notation, but probably use just memos and sketches (which is what all musically uneducated young people do when they start composing some stuff).

If this be the case for Yes as well, then the analysis too would be justified to be informal (at least to some extent), as it would avoid introducing an excessive amount of "intellectualism" which was probably absent in the original compositive process.
Roberto,

I don't agree with you at all that sketch scoring is done by "musically uneducated young people". It is exactly the opposite. A musically uneducated person who have no idea how to read a sketch score, let alone write one, while a musician would have no trouble reading basic charts and playing the part. Do you really think that Rick Wakeman sat down and wrote out every note he played on "Tales"? That Chris wrote down every single note he played on the bass, so that he might always play it "properly" in a concert setting? On five-line staves with key and time signatures, accidentals, etc.?

This is not classical music. Yes would have no reason at all to bother with writing out a full score. They don't need it, and they would not lock themselves into playing the exact same notes every night anyways. This is why I believe that no such score exists, other than perhaps one prepared by a fan as a project for his/her own amusement.

But I don't understand why you feel that you need a full score to perform a formal analysis in the first place. Listen to the music. You can tell what key they're playing in and who's playing what notes. There are usually no more than five parts to keep track of at any given time. When they change key or time signatures, you can tell by listening to it. When you hear them going up a fourth, and you know they started in D, they're in G now. You don't need a score to tell you that; your ears will do just fine. Or sit down and sketch it out yourself. It can't be that hard, and if there are parts that exceed your transcription skills, fake it. Use your ears, not your eyes, to perform the analysis.

I suppose I agree that "an excessive amount of 'intellectualism'" was probably absent when they composed the Tales, but I don't see how that makes the music any less worthy of a formal analysis. There are themes and subthemes, both musical and lyrical, which are introduced and go through variations and recapitulations. There are incidents of counterpoint, though not in the classical sense. It's a sophisticated piece of music; it's just not classical, so while I can appreciate your approaching it with the same care and respect as you would a classical piece, I don't know if that's really the proper approach.

But hey, it's your project. :headset:

[RickyG]

Orbert (Robert?),

despite the fact that printed music lacks many bars, it is interesting that you somehow state the fact that Yes (as well as many others) do not write music in the traditional classical notation, but probably use just memos and sketches (which is what all musically uneducated young people do when they start composing some stuff).

If this be the case for Yes as well, then the analysis too would be justified to be informal (at least to some extent), as it would avoid introducing an excessive amount of "intellectualism" which was probably absent in the original compositive process.

Any comments and/or additional info on this subject (informal notation) would be most welcome.

Thanks

Steve Howe doesn't read music and I suspect Jon doesn't either, so their parts would not be written out. I think Orbert may have misunderstood what you meant by the "memos and sketches". I for one, made them as a young person before I became music theory educated, and I still often make them, as an older person, particularly when I don't have score paper at hand.

Though I'd agree with Orbert that just because they didn't write it out or apply "traditional theoretical thinking" doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve a good theoretical analysis. Just because some (most?) of them don't "know" what they are doing in an intellectual theoretical sense, they know what they are doing intuitively.

Bruford once said something along the lines that when Wakeman joined, he was the first one who actually knew what he was doing and could genuinely read music. He said Wakeman would take some simple little melody and riff that Jon was doing and modulate it into several different keys without anyone even realizing what he had done. Bruford had high regard for Wakeman's skills in that area.

As a band, someone must have been taking some sort of notes on the form just to remember it all!!

[Roberto59]

There is a full score of Close to the Edge available via Guitar Pro......has ALL the key parts, bass, all the guitar tracks etc. It's a beautiful thing to read the score whilst listening to the music.....makes you appreciate it even more if thats possible.

Have you got any site address where I can find it?

Thanks

Roberto

[Roberto59]

Roberto,

I don't agree with you at all that sketch scoring is done by "musically uneducated young people". It is exactly the opposite. A musically uneducated person who have no idea how to read a sketch score, let alone write one, while a musician would have no trouble reading basic charts and playing the part.


Probably my choice of the word is misleading: by "sketch" I meant a piece of paper with rough indications (like: chords sequence, instrument start and end, possible indication of melody - but not using musical notation).


Do you really think that Rick Wakeman sat down and wrote out every note he played on "Tales"? That Chris wrote down every single note he played on the bass, so that he might always play it "properly" in a concert setting? On five-line staves with key and time signatures, accidentals, etc.?


Of course, not. Yet they should have a good system of noting down the musical indications in order to be able to play complex pieces.


This is not classical music. Yes would have no reason at all to bother with writing out a full score. They don't need it, and they would not lock themselves into playing the exact same notes every night anyways. This is why I believe that no such score exists, other than perhaps one prepared by a fan as a project for his/her own amusement.

But I don't understand why you feel that you need a full score to perform a formal analysis in the first place. Listen to the music. You can tell what key they're playing in and who's playing what notes. There are usually no more than five parts to keep track of at any given time. When they change key or time signatures, you can tell by listening to it. When you hear them going up a fourth, and you know they started in D, they're in G now. You don't need a score to tell you that; your ears will do just fine.


Well I wish I had such good ears! I find it very useful to have the score (even a simplified one at hand) to make the formal analysis: first because you can go back and forth as you like and jump here and there easily to compare parts, secondly because you save a lot of time that you would need to track down the whole thing yourself.


Or sit down and sketch it out yourself. It can't be that hard, and if there are parts that exceed your transcription skills, fake it. Use your ears, not your eyes, to perform the analysis.


Yes, of course, but your eyes can be of some help, especially in quick passages.


I suppose I agree that "an excessive amount of 'intellectualism'" was probably absent when they composed the Tales, but I don't see how that makes the music any less worthy of a formal analysis. There are themes and subthemes, both musical and lyrical, which are introduced and go through variations and recapitulations. There are incidents of counterpoint, though not in the classical sense. It's a sophisticated piece of music; it's just not classical, so while I can appreciate your approaching it with the same care and respect as you would a classical piece, I don't know if that's really the proper approach.

But hey, it's your project. :headset:


That's finally the key to the whole approach: the same respect as for a piece of classical music, although a lower degree of depth is probably required and sufficient to do the job in this case.

Thanks for your contributions and sorry for the misleading expressions

Roberto

[float_your_climb]

Hi Roberto,

Having myself done analytical work on Close to the Edge, I can tell you you will find no scores or help from the sheet music out there. Better start transcribing now rather that searching. Best way to start is listen. Sketch out the form. Sit at a keyboard and find the tonal centers and modal centers and where these delineate the sections. A lot of what you will be analyzing is textural...and there is no way to show that in a score....you'll see the notes and the instrumentation (maybe) but you won't see the tone color, synth patches, filters, guitars chosen, etc.

The important thing is of course, themes. How are they first stated, where do they reappear, are they interpolated, do they change tonal centers, etc. Text setting is also key...but that's obvious...and the text is where the Yes books come in handy.

Many analytical methods will fail you. Best way to do a Yes piece is by a quazi-Schenkerian method...one which you will pretty much need to create. Symbiotic analysis will sort of work, too...again...you will need to make most of this up.

Best place to start is with form and where each section delineates and ends up. Maybe graph textural changes, registeral changes, transcribe important parts, listen and sketch the rest....

Approaching Yes was sort of like approaching other things I've analyzed like John Adams' Shaker Loops. You have to look at the additive and subtractive nature of the music.

Best of luck! :)

[Roberto59]

Hi Roberto,

Having myself done analytical work on Close to the Edge, I can tell you you will find no scores or help from the sheet music out there. Better start transcribing now rather that searching. Best way to start is listen. Sketch out the form. Sit at a keyboard and find the tonal centers and modal centers and where these delineate the sections. A lot of what you will be analyzing is textural...and there is no way to show that in a score....you'll see the notes and the instrumentation (maybe) but you won't see the tone color, synth patches, filters, guitars chosen, etc.

The important thing is of course, themes. How are they first stated, where do they reappear, are they interpolated, do they change tonal centers, etc. Text setting is also key...but that's obvious...and the text is where the Yes books come in handy.

Many analytical methods will fail you. Best way to do a Yes piece is by a quazi-Schenkerian method...one which you will pretty much need to create. Symbiotic analysis will sort of work, too...again...you will need to make most of this up.

Best place to start is with form and where each section delineates and ends up. Maybe graph textural changes, registeral changes, transcribe important parts, listen and sketch the rest....

Approaching Yes was sort of like approaching other things I've analyzed like John Adams' Shaker Loops. You have to look at the additive and subtractive nature of the music.

Best of luck! :)

Hi,

I am pretty sure you are right in identifying in the arrangement one of the key areas where Yes music stands out clearly compared to many other rock bands (including sophisticated ones!).

I would like to read your CTTE analysis, by the way, if you agree.

See you 'round!

Roberto