If Kaye Had Never Been Fired, TALES Never Would Have Existed

[Q]

These what-if threads seem to be stimulating a lot of serious thought about the musical character of Yes's membership - which is great discussion material. So here's another one:

Posit #1 - Tony Kaye balanced Peter Banks melodically, but could not keep up with Howe

Posit #2 - The success of The Yes Album was Kaye's passive support in creating a backdrop for Howe, not a platform for counterpoint.

Posit #3 - From Fragile on, the arrangements of Yes were about counterpoint and the interplay between the melodic sources - guitar and keyboard; Howe needed an equal in order to achieve this

Posit #4 - Jon's ideas for CTTE and Tales required classical structures. Only Wakeman and Bruford were truly fluent in these languages.

Conclusion: If Kaye had remained in Yes, it would have been a guitarist's band rather than the orchestral creature it became (as Banks had, ironically, argued that it should be); and the path to Tales would have been forever closed. And even if it hadn't, Kaye could not have achieved the keyboardist's role on Tales (I say this with the greatest respect, and acknowledge that Kaye's work on TYA is classic and brilliant, and on Talk as well - it's just that his musical role was different).

[nightliner]

Plans were made to lose organist Tony
It was done to avoid acrimony
All the new keyboard sounds
Were to him out of bounds
No more room for a mild one-trick pony.

Yes Tales page 34.

[Q]

I'll bet you threw spit-balls in church when you were a kid, didn't you, nightliner?

[nightliner]

You know me well:D

Actually, I just thought that piece of delightful poetry said it better than I could.

[RobAdams]

Had Tony Kaye stayed throughout the entire history of Yes TALES wouldn't be the only thing that wouldn't have happened the way it did. Who knows what songs still would have been written. CLOSE TO THE EDGE and FRAGILE certainly would have been different. Getting into such time and space continuum matters can be tricky. How do I know the haircut I get today won't change the entire course of the rest of my life? I think there could be some great alternate tunes in these parallel universes if we could only get them!

I suppose it's possible that Tony Kaye would have developed into a better player if he had remained in YES.

Where would Rick have shown up if he didn't join YES?

[Bugeyes]

I don't think I would miss Tales. :angel: But I know I can't live without Fragile.

[Jackaranda]

Also, if Rick had not left there would have been no Relayer.

[flep]

Tales is Yes for me.

5 years after the initial start of this thread????? LOL

[Bugeyes]

Look around the site a little bit more, Phil. :sneaky:

[troubadourMn]

I just can't imagine another keyboard player in Yes other than Wakeman.
I really like the raw 60s feel that Tony brought to the early cds, but it's the orchestral development that Wakeman gave the band that is the Yes music I love. I wouldn't overlook Moraz as well, his contributions were immense, but Wakeman is the man.

[Ridvan]

If Kaye Had Never Been Fired, TALES Never Would Have Existed


Heck.....you might as well say anything from Fragile on would never had existed. I wonder if the band would have even stayed together two more years. If Chris is to be believed, they were on the ropes with the record company till their "hit" your move. With the conflicts in direction as to sound and ability, I think some would have gone their seperate ways. Rick brought a stage presence and ability that made him a star in his own right. Time has shown that Steve, Alan, Chris, Jon, and Rick each have that ability.

[Bo Locks]

Would've, could've, should've...

If Kaye had stayed, Yes would've still been a great band.
If Wakeman hadn't joined, we wouldn't have had CTTE.
If I had joined Yes for TFTO, it would've been shiit.
If Chris, Steve and Alan had given up after Rick & Jon left, we would've never had Drama.

I should've stayed in bed today...

[Joe]

Tales is Yes for me.


Same here........that and Yessongs.

Hey, I have the tattoo (Tales logo)
and the license plate (YESSONG) to prove it!

And even though Rick didn't care for the album,
it had to be him to make it what it is........GREAT!

[YesJen357]

Would've, could've, should've...

If Kaye had stayed, Yes would've still been a great band.
If Wakeman hadn't joined, we wouldn't have had CTTE.
If I had joined Yes for TFTO, it would've been shiit.
If Chris, Steve and Alan had given up after Rick & Jon left, we would've never had Drama.

I should've stayed in bed today...
Hee hee hee hee....
Ah yes, with the benefit of hindsight (remember hindsight is the only true 20/20 vision) surely it is acceptable to simply bask in the fascination of the twists and turns that led to the products we know and love so well today, without caring about what might have been, or could have been.....
I'm having too much fun enjoying every incarnation of the YES machine to spend time speculating on what may have been.

[Joe]

I'm having too much fun enjoying every incarnation of the YES machine to spend time speculating on what may have been.

I just hope we get to see more YJ

[BlankReg]

The different lineups of Yes is something I actually love about the band. Talk about diversity. Yes covered so many different landscapes, due in large part to who was in the band at the time. Sure, Tony/Rick/Pat/Geoff/Igor all brought much different approaches to the table. But so did Peter, Steve & Trevor, Jon and Trevor, Bill and Alan. Yes wouldn't be the Yes we all love if it weren't for the revolving door in the personnel department. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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But I have to wonder - what would Relayer have sounded like with Tony??<o:p></o:p>

[Melissa]

I can't imagine the Yes catalogue without Tales. Wakeman's brillliance, not to take anything away from Kaye, was integral to some of their best work. I can get a headache real quick-like trying to imagine other permutations of Yes.

[relayeire]

Kaye was let go, in part, because he wasn't into much but organ and piano... yet, on the Badger album he did not long after he uses a Moog and a Mellotron... if he was going in that direction, I supposed he could have just stayed... but he didn't have the classical playing and compositional chops, it seems... his was an unfortunate but necessary departure for the good of Yes, and their future as a great progressive band...

btw, it's long been my opinion that 90125 is what Yes would have sounded like in 1983 had the original band simply continued on... 90125 was a logical modern progression from Yes 1969, IMHO... however, had that continued, there would have been no CTTE, TFTO, Relayer, etc. so I am happy for the Changes!

I do love these theoretical threads!

[fovman]

Jon wrote TfTO with Steve...and Jon was dedicated to the lengthy conceptual composition.
They would have used whoever was on keys (Kaye?) to fill it in.. Wakeman's complaint was that there was to much filler and not much substance.
Granted it would have turned out sounding different without Wakeman.

[Joe]

Granted it would have turn out sounding different without Wakeman.
A WHOLE lot different. Even though he wasn't really into it,
just listen to his work on all 4 songs......Just wonderful! :appl[1]:

[Going For The Fish]

If Tales weren't written, Wakeman would not have left.

I love Tales BTW.

[troubadourMn]

If there is one superstar in Yes, it's Wakeman.
He brought the symphonic dimension to Yes that was central to their great albums of the 70s.

[ANTIOCH]

I loved the YES that created CTTE,Tales and all thereafter.
I also loved the "Drama" LP as it has some very tight music in it.
Still, I will listen to "YES" their debut album and I absolutely love the vibe the band is sharing. I have not been a huge Tony Kaye supporter throughout the years, but I believe the man can play. He is a team player and focuses on what the song needs, not what Tony can do to showcase himself.
For arguements sake, YES are a better vocal band in every one of Tony's tenures; and that carries some weight !!!

[Olorin]

I think Tony is good at the kind of music he plays. If he hadn't left, the subsequent albums, from Fragile on, would have been different or would not have existed. That's not a judgement on Tony; it's just that each album is a reflection of where the band's collective head is at the time, and with different members, you get a different chemistry, and different results.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

These what-if threads seem to be stimulating a lot of serious thought about the musical character of Yes's membership - which is great discussion material. So here's another one:

Posit #1 - Tony Kaye balanced Peter Banks melodically, but could not keep up with Howe

Posit #2 - The success of The Yes Album was Kaye's passive support in creating a backdrop for Howe, not a platform for counterpoint.

VERY good points mate! :appl[1]:

I would further posit that Yes were not a Prog band when kaye was in it - the first time round - and certainly weren't when Banks was in it. They were just a jobbing British band trying to cut it in the [Barrett-led] post The Pink Floyd Sound era.

As to whether, had Kaye stayed, Tales would have never existed, I say we can't say that, or rather it might have done, but it would not have been the multi-layered beast it became as a result of Wakman's keyboards. Kaye being more the limited (though good) traditional Hammond player.

Posit #3 - From Fragile on, the arrangements of Yes were about counterpoint and the interplay between the melodic sources - guitar and keyboard; Howe needed an equal in order to achieve this

Agree whole-heartedly. I think the ONLY two variables you could change and still have a viable 'Yes' sound/material is Bruford for White and Moraz for Wakeman. Wow! Imagine the two Jazz-orientated maestros in the band at the same time?! Now THAT would be material worth a listen!

Posit #4 - Jon's ideas for CTTE and Tales required classical structures. Only Wakeman and Bruford were truly fluent in these languages.

Mother's milk mate - again, agree completely.

Conclusion: If Kaye had remained in Yes, it would have been a guitarist's band rather than the orchestral creature it became (as Banks had, ironically, argued that it should be); and the path to Tales would have been forever closed. And even if it hadn't, Kaye could not have achieved the keyboardist's role on Tales (I say this with the greatest respect, and acknowledge that Kaye's work on TYA is classic and brilliant, and on Talk as well - it's just that his musical role was different).

Once again, with my small caveat in my previous point about whether or not Tales would have ever seen the light of day, this rings true.

Kaye had his place in the band as long as they were in that place and vibe - Yes changed and he was the wrong man (along with Banks) for the job: you don't use an axe for key-hole surgery.

PS: If I understood the chronology correctly, I think it was Rabin who did the keys on Talk, with Kaye joining them for the live dates?

[xlink_nz]

In all due respect to Wakeman I do wonder how much he contributes to actual song writing as opposed to doing the parts and solos etc ?.

The highlight for me of Wakeman's playing is the keys solos in Awaken

Although Kayes playing is a lot more subdued it is clear that he actually contributed significantly to song writing on BG and also to producing on Talk. There is more to Kaye than the sounds you hear on his recordings. That said I love his keys solo and interplay with Rabin on the Calling

Also note Kaye was present on the Fragile sessions. I do wonder how different the structures would have been had he stayed.

Kaye is imho very competent but many keyboard players appear to be second rate compared to Wakemen

[MirokuLuvstheGirls]

Yes would have been a very different band. Even on "Fragile", there is a distinct change in sound. That is, of course, due to Rick Wakeman's presence. He uses synthesizers and the Mellotron. Kaye uses a Hammond organ. (Wakeman uses organs too, but he prefers synthesizers while Kaye of course prefers a good old organ any day of the week) There's a big difference musically between the two men.


Yes, I have a feeling that Tales never would have been written, or if it had, it would be just four sides of a more complex TYA\Time and a Word\Yes if Tony had stayed. Definitely would have been different. Relayer, I doubt that would exist had Tony stayed. CTTE would have been very different as well.

Wasn't the reason Kaye left because Jon kept pestering him about the Moog and other new-fangled keyboards that Tony didn't like, and he was getting fed up with Jon and Steve?

[xlink_nz]

Wasn't the reason Kaye left because Jon kept pestering him about the Moog and other new-fangled keyboards that Tony didn't like, and he was getting fed up with Jon and Steve?

I read somewhere that Steve and Tony shared the same room the TYA US tour but I'm sure there was many reasons for Tony leaving. It was a long time ago

Also bear in mind syths were new, imagine now days if Yes expected Steve to mainly used a guitar synth !

ps: If Takes didn't exist you wouldn't have got Relayer