80's Yes: Oh the Humanity!

[Shatterwolf]

Though I am a big Yes fan, I find myself everyday cursing at Tormato, Drama, and 90125. I had purchased them all for 50 bucks from my local BestBuy, but the point is, Yes in the 80's was terrible! Except for Machine Messiah, Tempus Fugit, and a handful more, Yes had turned into a pop-themed monster. Whatever happened to innovation? The raw love and free spirit? I know the departure of Jon, Steve, and well, everybody who has the divine talent required to create classic Yes was a major blow (Oh yea? Then explain the horrid Tormato, which still had the greatest lineup ever), but it rips my heart out every time "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is played. When I visit other prog sites, such Yes fans are considering 90125 as monumental as Tales, or even Fragile, just because it sold. People left and right rate 90125 the highest score possible, it even ranks higher than Relayer. Well, Yes was a sell out, and it breaks my heart. Shame.

I can now understand why Jon, for quite some time, didn't wan't to play any material from Drama.(Other then he didn't record it)

[PO]

I can certainly see your point. From The Yes Album through Going for the One, very few clunkers made it to vinyl. Many think there were none in that span! It was truly their power curve.

I really don't know any Prog fans who rate the 80s output too highly, though. There are people who like Yes, but not necessarily Prog as a genre. Same with some Rush fans, too. It's rare that you find Yes discussed on any forum other than a Prog forum, though. So, they aren't a pop band by definition, anyway.

When I first heard the 80s hit, I thought it was another Anderson side project (he had been doing that for a few years at the time).

[cinderella]

but it rips my heart out every time "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is played. Well, Yes was a sell out, and it breaks my heart. Shame.



It breaks my heart just to read this. Shame.

[Yes_Fan_4_Life26]

OH dear cindy is "an owner of a broken heart" LOL

[Yes_Fan_4_Life26]

No pun intended

[jimmygtr]

Like or dislike I just wish there would have been more output in the 80's. In 12 years (82-94), the 90125 Yes only put out effectively 3 1/3 albums. In that same span of time (68-80) the Trooper Yes put out 10 studio and 2 live albums. Never really made sense to me.

[Timmo]

Shatterwolf, I think many agree with you in spirit, but not completely in tone. There are some on this site that actually PREFER '80s Yes. In general, I think your dislike is stronger than most on the site, though a few "Troopers" are probably nodding their grizzled old Progster heads in agreement.

For example...Tormato suffered from lackluster production. However, many of the songs took on a whole new life when performed live onstage. The Tormato and 10th Anniversary tours were among the best they ever did. DKTW is awesome live, as is OTSWOF. I'll give you Circus of Heaven, I've never been able to sit through that song! WWJT? (What was Jon thinking?)

Drama is uneven, mostly because of the singing and lyrics. However, Geoff Downes is solid on the keys, Steve's playing is stellar throughout, and the rhythm section is just about as good as it gets (although I'll give the "best" nod to "Relayer," which is also far and away my favorite YesDisk).

And I agree, Drama is IN NO WAY better than Relayer.

After Drama and with Trevor, Yes morphed into a pop band with prog undertones. I wouldn't say they were terrible; the musicianship was still topnotch and the production values were great. It was VERY GOOD pop music. I'll agree it lacked the monster amazingness of the '70s "main sequence" of TYA through GFTO; in fact, at the time, I stopped listening. However, millions disagreed with me.

Looking back on the period, I enjoy '80s Yes more now than I did then, because of a distance in time. Then, it made me cringe, I can actually listen to it now.

[cinderella]

"Troopers" are probably nodding their grizzled old Progster heads in agreement.


Hee-hee! I find this extremely amusing. http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/gigglesmile.gif

[Amy]

WWJT? (What was Jon thinking?)

Thanks Timmo, I never would have guessed this one.

[S.praematurus]

I don't know...I'm pretty much a die-hard Yes fan. Sure, I am a Trooper at heart, but I like my YesWest sometimes too. Certainly I like some Yes music more than other stuff, but I at least like all of it to one degree or another.

I *like* Drama. I *like* Tormato. Really, I do! I take them on road trips along with CTTE, GFTO, Big Generator, Talk, and Magnification! My husband and I had our first dance to Onward, and if we (or "I" really, as I am the big YesFan of the two of us) had never listened to 80s Yes, we'd have had our first dance to...oh, who knows what?!?! I shudder to think!

[SonicDeath10]

blah blah blah sounds like the ranting of a die hard progger who thinks anything with a zillion time changes and tempo switches is automatically brilliant and wonderful. New flash; most prog bands don't have original ideas, and keep reusing the same old ones. Yes chagned with the times, and I rate their 80's material as very high caliber and creative, in a different genre perhaps, but in that genre, it is about as good as it gets. Trevor isn't the best song writer or guitarist ever, but he's pretty creative. So, get your head out of the "prog rules everything else sucks" bucket.

[cinderella]

Like or dislike I just wish there would have been more output in the 80's. In 12 years (82-94), the 90125 Yes only put out effectively 3 1/3 albums. In that same span of time (68-80) the Trooper Yes put out 10 studio and 2 live albums. Never really made sense to me.

I know. I wanted more from the 80's Yes. Do you think it was Trevor Rabin's fault? Sometimes I do.

[cinderella]

I mean I'm just saying Trevor was very much a perfectionist and could have caused a delay trying to get everything just right.

[BrianD]

Of course another factor in the poor Yeswest output was Jon's ambivalence about it - he effectively prevented work on a third 80s album by leaving them in '88 for ABWH. And I'm sure that some of the BG and Talk delays were due to that as well.

[Awakened by the Gates]

Do you think it was Trevor Rabin's fault? Sometimes I do.

I see it but I don't believe it! Someone has taken over Cindy's computer!

[triplej 04]

I agree with sonicdeath10, Yes were going with the times but still came out with something different to what other 80's pop bands came up with at the time, especially Drama. The 80's stuff included is what makes Yes, YES!! This is all part of the history and noone can change that.... You can either dislike the 80's Yes or love it, but in the end.. it's YES MUSIC.

[Roan's Lady]

Listening to 80's Yes. Some great musicianship - take that back - a LOT of great musicianship. The Rabin days were quite prolific, and there's no denying how well the band succeeded commercially. But as the lyrics got easier to understand and the rhythms and music easier to follow, it's this only marginally grizzled Trooper's opinion that in that ease of listening, or perhaps as a *result* of it, something was lost. 80's Yes - in general, too obvious, too transparent for my taste.

Drama kicks butt, though. :-)

[Yes2Yes]

I think the 80's were just another part of Yes. I thought many of the 80's songs were great. They were changing with the times. Even though I'm a Trooper I still enjoy listening to 90125.

[vivafra]

Though I am a big Yes fan, I find myself everyday cursing at Tormato, Drama, and 90125. I had purchased them all for 50 bucks from my local BestBuy, but the point is, Yes in the 80's was terrible! Except for Machine Messiah, Tempus Fugit, and a handful more, Yes had turned into a pop-themed monster. Whatever happened to innovation? The raw love and free spirit? I know the departure of Jon, Steve, and well, everybody who has the divine talent required to create classic Yes was a major blow (Oh yea? Then explain the horrid Tormato, which still had the greatest lineup ever), but it rips my heart out every time "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is played. When I visit other prog sites, such Yes fans are considering 90125 as monumental as Tales, or even Fragile, just because it sold. People left and right rate 90125 the highest score possible, it even ranks higher than Relayer. Well, Yes was a sell out, and it breaks my heart. Shame.

I can now understand why Jon, for quite some time, didn't wan't to play any material from Drama.(Other then he didn't record it)
I absolutely agree with you!!!

[Sheerah]

I think the 80's were just another part of Yes. I thought many of the 80's songs were great. They were changing with the times. Even though I'm a Trooper I still enjoy listening to 90125.

What he says!

[cinderella]

I see it but I don't believe it! Someone has taken over Cindy's computer!

Hee-hee! Seems that way doesn't it? I know old Trev can take a little criticism from his biggest fan. I just got mad at him for not making more music. Then he left and I'll probably never see him again! *sniff*

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Cinderella528/Toy%20Box/lovebug-041.gif

[Albedo]

.... But as the lyrics got easier to understand and the rhythms and music easier to follow, it's this only marginally grizzled Trooper's opinion that in that ease of listening, or perhaps as a *result* of it, something was lost. 80's Yes - in general, too obvious, too transparent for my taste.

Drama kicks butt, though. :-)

I agree with this. I actually like many of the songs from the Rabin era, but I don't play them very often. Just like the other day I put on my "Back in the USA" McCartney DVD and really enjoyed rocking with Paul for 3 hours, but now it's going back on the shelf for probably months. Whereas I play some Trooper stuff nearly every day.

However, I do say the 90125 tour was still one of the best shows I ever saw live. I was still high for days after and it wasn't just from the funny second-hand smoke I was inhaling.

[PO]

...Yes chagned with the times...

Thanks! That was the problem!

In the 70s, they LED the times. They created the times. They were the times. They didn't follow anything. Big difference. There were plenty of bands following the times in the 80s.

There was Prog in the 80s (The Dregs come to mind, of which Steve Howe played a cut on an album) so I listened to them more, as they weren't following the times. They didn't get silly haircuts and wear makeup (not very "Yes" in my opinion, but there it was). I didn't listen to Yes or Asia much in the 80s.

[jimmygtr]

I know. I wanted more from the 80's Yes. Do you think it was Trevor Rabin's fault? Sometimes I do.

Somewhere between Trevor's perfectionism and he and Jon and not seeing eye to eye I think.... But it's weird because if you look at 1995-2005 how many soundtracks as Trevor put out? Ayecaramba, we're talking a lot! He certainly how's the capability of being prolific!

In some respects it seems like Chris and Alan could have written more material in that time period as well. Perhaps will never know for certain.




:headset:

[Earl Grey]

Aim High Shoot Low is an amazing song.

I have no problem whatsoever with the Trevor period.

I did have a problem with it at one time, but I was wearing Miami Vice jackets at the time, and never trust the opinion of someone who is wearing fake shoulders.

I prefer Howe, my second preference is Rabin. They are both brilliant, I find no fault in either. There. I said it.

Trev is an amazing musician, and he saved YES.

A million years ago. Huh? Sorry. A couple of decades ago.

Wasn't that just a couple of months ago?!

Where's my shoulderpads? I feel naked here!

:ele:

[BrianD]

Aim High Shoot Low is an amazing song.

I have no problem whatsoever with the Trevor period.

:

Only with the name of the song eh Earl?

Aim low, Shoot high is my motto!

[Earl Grey]

I don't know much about that sort of thing...

I've shot tin cans from a post a couple of times, that was it. A fun diversion.

I Did NOT Shoot That Man, I swear!

;)

[Jacaranda]

Somewhere between Trevor's perfectionism and he and Jon and not seeing eye to eye I think.... But it's weird because if you look at 1995-2005 how many soundtracks as Trevor put out? Ayecaramba, we're talking a lot! He certainly how's the capability of being prolific!

:headset:

I get the feeling Jerry Bruckheimer gives TR a lot more freedom than was given to him in Yes. He gets things done on the scores because it is all him, for the most part. When TR came into Yes on 90125, he had no idea he was making a Yes album. Jon Signed up at the last minute and slapped the computer generated Yes on there and away we go. The reason Big Generator took so long was because they were making a Yes album from the outset. So TR is working with guys who are used to banging heads to get ---- done as on the last 15 years of stuff, but TR isn't going to back down, he just wrote Yes's biggest success ever, throw Trevor Horn in there and it's Diva city (justified Divaness though).

NOBODY has an objective scale on the quality of Drama to BG era stuff in comparison to Troopers material. I respect both, but the "Bag on the 80's pop machine crap" is boring. You don't like it? Fine, but it's subjective. I got into Yes on Big Generator, so I'm sure people reading this right now will stop reading because because my first experience of Yes is manufactured pop or whatever, so how could I have an informed opinion. I find it really funny how fans hate it, yet Jon Anderson signed up for 2 albums worth of it and then called Rabin up for material after that and then a CD after that? Um...huh? Chris Squire was on all of it too, so if 2 intregal parts of Yes kept coming back, how could all this stuff they kept making be considered pop garbage? It's demeaning to Anderson and Squire's taste.

[Timmo]

My husband and I had our first dance to Onward, and if we (or "I" really, as I am the big YesFan of the two of us) had never listened to 80s Yes, we'd have had our first dance to...oh, who knows what?!?! I shudder to think!Wham, perhaps?

Hee hee.

[Timmo]

My husband and I had our first dance to Onward, and if we (or "I" really, as I am the big YesFan of the two of us) had never listened to 80s Yes, we'd have had our first dance to...oh, who knows what?!?! I shudder to think!Wham, perhaps?

Hee hee.However, I do say the 90125 tour was still one of the best shows I ever saw live.Well, I wouldn't go THAT far.

My good buddy Rick turned to me as the lights came up at the 90125 show in Detroit and said, "Well, I guess Yes is over, huh?"

I had to agree at the time. But as the lyrics got easier to understand and the rhythms and music easier to follow, it's this only marginally grizzled Trooper's opinion that in that ease of listening, or perhaps as a *result* of it, something was lost. 80's Yes - in general, too obvious, too transparent for my taste.

Drama kicks butt, though. :-)I kind of agree.

I don't LOVE 80s Yes, but I do respect it. It's just not my cup of tea.

As to an earlier comment that modern prog has become totally derivative, all I can say is listen to some Porcupine Tree.

[Albedo]

Wham, perhaps?

Hee hee.Well, I wouldn't go THAT far.

My good buddy Rick turned to me as the lights came up at the 90125 show in Detroit and said, "Well, I guess Yes is over, huh?"

I had to agree at the time.I kind of agree.

I don't LOVE 80s Yes, but I do respect it. It's just not my cup of tea.

As to an earlier comment that modern prog has become totally derivative, all I can say is listen to some Porcupine Tree.

OK, maybe it WAS the smoke!

[PO]

...I find it really funny how fans hate it, yet Jon Anderson signed up for 2 albums worth of it and then called Rabin up for material after that and then a CD after that? Um...huh?
Perhaps they had a contract to fulfill? Anderson quit after BG to form ABWH (lineup sound familiar?).

Chris Squire was on all of it too, so if 2 intregal parts of Yes kept coming back, how could all this stuff they kept making be considered pop garbage?
"We thought we were being modern" --Chris Squire.

Just because Squire likes something doesn't mean I will. He also played a Kramer Ferrington bass which was a piece of garbage. I'd never buy one. I don't know anyone who likes everything I do, and vice-versa. "There's only 2 kinds of music. Good and bad" --Les Paul

That's what subjective is. Diff'rent strokes ...

[S.praematurus]

Wham, perhaps?

Hee hee.

Eeeeeeeeeew!

Not that I dind't like Wham in their day, but to dance to for your first wedding dance?!?!?! Again I say...EEEeeeeeeeeeeeew! Not even back then!

Thanx, muscla_1! Really made me laugh!

[ChrisBoylan]

Over the years, I've read so many comments on the subject of who is better, who should rejoin, who should take a hike, etc. So much slamming. To use one of Jon's phrases, Yes is "an ever opening flower". If the proverbial revolving door wasn't there, YES wouldn't be here in the first place. Just like us and Human beings, YES was born, and continues to grow and evolve. I personally am just thankful that they are still here with us contributing their music. And again, someday - just like all of us mortals, YES will reach the end of it's life and die. On that day, I will truely morn.

[cinderella]

I'm glad Yes went through changes. They kept my interest and brought in a lot of fans who liked the kind of music they were playing at that particular time. The newer Yes fans then went back and listened to the older Yes stuff. It's the older Yes fans who seem to have the problem of accepting their changes. To me it's all great music.

[Altres]

I really need to give Talk a listen, it is the only album by Yes I have never heard properly. Oh, and I have only really listened to Big Generator a couple of times but it scared me senseless. Oh, and the Live Solo's album I missed totally. Oh and Union was pretty poor.

But I do need to hear Talk I think. :D

Brian

[ThePatman]

I really need to give Talk a listen, it is the only album by Yes I have never heard properly. Oh, and I have only really listened to Big Generator a couple of times but it scared me senseless. Oh, and the Live Solo's album I missed totally. Oh and Union was pretty poor.

But I do need to hear Talk I think. :D

Brian

I remember the Talk concert in New Orleans I went to. I enjoyed the show, and it was a really good turn out. Big Generator has a song that mesmerizes me... Holy Lamb. :headset:

[cinderella]

It's just a matter of taste. I love pop music so therefore I liked 90125. It was to me very refreshing. I loved all the 80's albums and I have most of the 70's albums. My problem is that after Trevor left I never bought the albums after that. Those are the ones I need to get. I was just so heartbroken, I didn't care if I ever heard Yes again. I was mad at all of them.

[ThePatman]

Yes in the 80's is one thing, but the music in general in the 80's was very diverse and creative. For a band to make it from the 70's to the 90's, and still have a following is something to be proud of. :headset:

[SonicDeath10]

Yeah I like Prog and Pop so I'm all set!

[neilius]

I read somewhere that Big generator was recorded and ready for release a year before it came out.
Big mistake there imo, in '86 rock was still big. in '87 acid, house and other types of dance music took over the music scene ( in U.K anyway).

[SonicDeath10]

At least they weren't like Boston, taking a year off to try and make their guitars sound more like spaceships...

[Hill St.]

The Yeswest albums are the only ones I don't own.I like some songs from that era.Luckily,the ones I like are on the box sets which I do own.Although,I'm not a big fan of the 80's Yes but, they did keep the flame and brought in alot of new fans.

[Stevehoweworshipu!]

I agree i haaaaate 80s Yes...with a passion (play)
But i'll tell you what i dont mind 80s King Crimson
that was so damn funky sure some of it was mind-numblingly boring
*cough* side-2-of-3-of-a-perfect-pair *cough*
although Discipline was fantastic!!

[PrimeMover]

Though I am a big Yes fan, I find myself everyday cursing at Tormato, Drama, and 90125. I had purchased them all for 50 bucks from my local BestBuy, but the point is, Yes in the 80's was terrible! Except for Machine Messiah, Tempus Fugit, and a handful more, Yes had turned into a pop-themed monster. )


I don't love 90125 just because it sold well. I love it because it's damned good. That's it. Please respect my opinion and trust it..

[THEANCIENT1]

The only thing I can say about the 80's yes I loved drama. I do like the stuff from 90210 and big but I just don't listen to rabin he is gawd aweful but Jon was doing some very cool stuff vocally. White and Squire just became a backing band and they were not doing anything really inventive at all. Its sad to say even with steve howe and asia. I noticed he became a very minimal player well atleast on a japanese live Asia concert. Money was talking and it almost seemed as though some people were afraid to do anything to stop the cash flow

[Hugh Shiebler]

Rabin is a very, very good guitarist. Also, he wrote much of the YesWest output - - including "The Miracle of Life", which is right up there with Classic Yes of any period. So trashing Rabin wholesale as a musician is just simply misguided.

On the other hand, I rarely listen to 90125, and now find some of the heralded Rabin contributions to "Union" (e.g. "Lift Me Up") almost unlistenable. At their worst, the Rabin era tunes could be formulaic & somewhat leaden. At their best - - "State of Play" fro "Talk" or "I'm Running" from BG, they could could really soar.

For the record, what I found most irritating about the Rabin era was Rabin's take on the classics. The 9012Live version of "All Good People" is fine right up to the guitar solo: it goes completely wrong at that point. Which is not to say that it needed to be preserved in amber, but the style that Rabin used for his solo was just so GENERIC. Classic Yes reduced to generic, radio-friendly 80's rock.

[SonicDeath10]

He's good he's great, but for some people he's not good enough. I love Rabin stuff.

[sunburstbasser]

One thing that always comes to mind when these threads come up is:

What would you rather have?

Sure, plenty of people don't care for YesWest. But very few seem to say what they'd rather have given the circumstances. Classic lineup? Theres a reason Jon and Rick left before Drama. Leave Jon out and call it Cinema? I particularly LIKE Jon's singing on many of the songs from 90125-Talk. Rabin is a damn fine singer himself, and along with Chris they had a great, tight vocal sound going.

Some would call Rabin god-awful. If hes so bad, how did he pen so many hits for Yes and then work on a few soundtracks that were also well recieved? When I've accomplished 1/20th of what he has in the industry, I'll think about how bad he was.

[Mincer]

Well some people have to relive their teenage years over and over again. If you like old Yes, listen...but I am so happy they actually changed over the years. If Howe was better than Rabin, how come he formed Asia? And his playing on that is not nearly as good as Trevor's on 90125. *sheesh, yesfans*

[Steve St Thomas]

One thing that always comes to mind when these threads come up is:

What would you rather have?

Sure, plenty of people don't care for YesWest. But very few seem to say what they'd rather have given the circumstances. Classic lineup? Theres a reason Jon and Rick left before Drama. Leave Jon out and call it Cinema? I particularly LIKE Jon's singing on many of the songs from 90125-Talk. Rabin is a damn fine singer himself, and along with Chris they had a great, tight vocal sound going.

Some would call Rabin god-awful. If hes so bad, how did he pen so many hits for Yes and then work on a few soundtracks that were also well recieved? When I've accomplished 1/20th of what he has in the industry, I'll think about how bad he was.

And you know what. Whether anyone cares, or likes it or not, the line-up of Anderson - Kaye - Rabin - Squire and White is the longest lasting Yes 'incarnation' in their entire history. This version of YES existed over 4 albums, more than any other line-up of Yes. It was the only sense of 'permanence' this band has given its fans in 35 years. To like Yes, is to automatically accept change, because you have to. They've never had a line-up last more than 2 albums, until you get to Anderson - Kaye - Rabin - Squire- White. And that was actually quite a pleasant change, a bit of stability!!!!! ;)

[PO]

But, some people like different music. Logic does not convince someone to like sauerkraut or tapioca pudding.

The lineup changes in the 70s were good changes. Howe, White, Wakeman, and Moraz all added to the plus side.

The 80s, as a decade, had it's moments, but the Prog/inventive musicians weren't on the then-new MTV. Those that wanted to be on MTV (80s Yes included) had to be marketable to the 80s audience. Look at how they dressed. 40 year-olds with makeup and hair gel. The extended works of 80s Yes was not MTV material. Nor was it part of their "success" at the time. Those pieces were to placate the previous fans.

Oddly enough, the last song 80s Yes ever played on a stage was ...


Roundabout (preceded by Yours is no Disgrace).

[ThePatman]

Everybody was dancing in the 80's, classic rock as we speak of it pretty much got fased out. Look at Led Zeppelin, boy did they change. YES tried to keep up... some of it was ok... some of it wasn't. :headset:

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

Yes had turned into a pop-themed monster. Whatever happened to innovation? The raw love and free spirit?

Hello? Earth calling! Can you honestly tell me Cinema and Changes are not innovative?? Can you call the lyrics to Holy Lamb stadard 80s fare? Name any 80s song that used a sitar like we hear in It Can Happen. It just irks me that whenever someone with a track record like Tales, CTTE, and Fragile can be CRITICIZED for not being MORE original. Good God, considering the scope of their thematic material thus far, how much MORE new ideas are there to express?! I think its a cop out just to call someone a sell out just because they are enjoying success. I get tired of hearing 90125 beat up. It was a tight, fresh, highly innovative (rhythms in changes? hello?), and yes -- sorry if some of you would have preferred that they remain eclectic and obscure forever - POPULAR.

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

I do like the stuff from 90210 and big but I just don't listen to rabin ...

Ummmmmm, is this in Hollywood???

[BrianD]

And you know what. Whether anyone cares, or likes it or not, the line-up of Anderson - Kaye - Rabin - Squire and White is the longest lasting Yes 'incarnation' in their entire history. This version of YES existed over 4 albums, more than any other line-up of Yes. It was the only sense of 'permanence' this band has given its fans in 35 years. To like Yes, is to automatically accept change, because you have to. They've never had a line-up last more than 2 albums, until you get to Anderson - Kaye - Rabin - Squire- White. And that was actually quite a pleasant change, a bit of stability!!!!! ;)

Not quite right.

They were on two albums (90125, Big Generator), then Union where everybody who put a hand up took part, then Talk

So only 2 albums in a row with that lineup.

[Steve St Thomas]

Not quite right.

They were on two albums (90125, Big Generator), then Union where everybody who put a hand up took part, then Talk

So only 2 albums in a row with that lineup.

Ah, but UNION, technically, and factually still has only Rabin-Kaye-Squire-White on 4 tracks, with Anderson singing. That line-up still appears on more albums under the Yes banner than any other one. Sorry. They weren't 8 man performed songs.

[umgekehrt]

Interesting that you lumped Tormato together with 90125, and didn't even mentioned BG at all. I think Release, Release and OTSWOF are great tunes, and Circus of Heaven is the only weak link in the album.

As for Drama, I seem to love everything in it that other people hate, for example White Car and Into The Lens.

This is also true in the case of 90125, because I do believe that Owner is the best song in it. The other ones are quite forgettable.

Ah well, to each her own ;)

[PO]

They were on two albums (90125, Big Generator), then Union where everybody who put a hand up took part, then Talk

So only 2 albums in a row with that lineup.

Right. Didn't Anderson officially quit Yes after Big Generator? ABWH was the result, with an album and a tour. The Union album and tour happened after ABWH.

YesWest did two albums from '84 to '88 and then they split. I don't recall what the remaining guys in YesWest (Rabin, White, Squire, Kaye) did during ABWH's album and tour.

Union was originally "supposed to be" the 2nd ABWH album.

[Faceintheplace]

Yeswest were recording material which years later wound up on the first Conspiracy album. In the early stages of recording, Trevor Rabin was involved. Yeswest were also thinking about brining in Roger Hogson as a singer and Trevor had originally written "Walls" for him to sing.

[cinderella]

I read somewhere that Big generator was recorded and ready for release a year before it came out.


As for Big Generator, Trevor said it was a real drug time as far as the band went, and he didn't want to talk about who or what, but it was a drug time and it didn’t have the same focus as 90125. He said there were moments on Big Generator that he thought were as strong as anything on any Yes album he'd ever been involved with or even heard.

[JL]

He said there were moments on Big Generator that he thought were as strong as anything on any Yes album he'd ever been involved with or even heard.

I believe Trevor is correct in his analysis. I'll never understand how this is not universally regarded as a fantastic album.

Chris deserves the award for some of the best bass playing on any album released in the 1980s for his BG work.

[jimmygtr]

I read somewhere that Big generator was recorded and ready for release a year before it came out.
Big mistake there imo, in '86 rock was still big. in '87 acid, house and other types of dance music took over the music scene ( in U.K anyway).

Yes, that was bad timing for the album to take so long. They could have ridden the coat tails of 90125 better (and avoided the music transition happening) had they got the second YesWest album out sooner.

[PO]

Yeswest were recording material which years later wound up on the first Conspiracy album. In the early stages of recording, Trevor Rabin was involved. Yeswest were also thinking about brining in Roger Hogson as a singer and Trevor had originally written "Walls" for him to sing.
Okay. I knew they had broken up after BigGen. So, the consistency theory doesn't work.

It seems when Union came about it was patched together with the members recording with those they had most recently worked with. It didn't matter anyway, since a LOT of their playing was overdubbed by others.

I've always felt ABWH was every bit Yes as YesWest was. Heck, they had 4 heavyweight alums (A,B, W & H). It was legalities ONLY that allowed the title to one or the other.

[cinderella]

Yes, that was bad timing for the album to take so long. They could have ridden the coat tails of 90125 better (and avoided the music transition happening) had they got the second YesWest album out sooner.

Big Generator took so long because the band went to Caramati, Italy to do the album. They were going to record it in a old castle. This was to save money, which turned out to be a bad idea, and they ended up redoing some of the songs in London. Some of the band wasn't happy with Trevor Horn doing it either, so they ended up back in Los Angeles.

Chris Squire said the most sensible thing in the world would have been if they'd never left the U.S. in the first place. Then the album would have been finished a year earlier.

[jimmygtr]

Big Generator took so long because the band went to Caramati, Italy to do the album. They were going to record it in a old castle. This was to save money, which turned out to be a bad idea, and they ended up redoing some of the songs in London. Some of the band wasn't happy with Trevor Horn doing it either, so they ended up back in Los Angeles.

Chris Squire said the most sensible thing in the world would have been if they'd never left the U.S. in the first place. Then the album would have been finished a year earlier.

True, but isn't funny how Close to the Edge taking 3 months was once considered an "insane amount of time in the studio" and at that time they were doing gigs inbetween sessions.

Sometimes I just wonder if professonal musicians don't get spoiled by the fact they don't realize most people would love the luxury of taking so long to accomplish a task ;-)

[Hugh Shiebler]

Today I found myself with a three hour drive into NYC n my hands. As a kind of experiment, I devoted the trip in to listening to two albums: "Open Your Eyes" and "Talk". These two albums, released within just a few years of each other, were similar in that they both seemed to generate more controversy than sales.

I had purchased both CD's as soon as they came out, and spent many hours listening to both. Plus, I had seen the "Talk" tour, and had a sense of how those pieces worked live. And I had also seen the 1997 show that featured "OYE" and "No way We Can Lose".

This grizzled trooper's inescapable conclusion? "Talk" is by far the better album. Not even close. "Talk" simply succeeds more often in what it tries to do. And that inlcludes, interestingly, attempts at radio-friendly fare like "The Calling". "Talk" strats off strong and keeps going. And when it wants to ROCK it doesn't F*#%
around!

Even without "Endless Dream", "Talk" would still be the stronger record. "OYE" has its moments, but unfortunately its first song is one of its weakest. "OYE" would actually have been BETTER if it had just started with the title track.

Comments?

[YesJen357]

I'd hate to have 25 albums all sounding like 'Close To The Edge.'
I might start to take CTTE for granted, or something. I'm thankful that we have a variety of different stuff to excite our musical senses with YES music.
Instead of complaining about the interesting variety in the Yes out-put over the years; I find it better that I can listen to Yes-West when the mood arises. Sorry if some of you are not the same.
Who wants caviar all the time?

[umgekehrt]

Who wants caviar all the time?
Well, not Tardis anyway, she's vegetarian ;)

[PO]

I'd hate to have 25 albums all sounding like 'Close To The Edge.'
I might start to take CTTE for granted, or something. I'm thankful that we have a variety of different stuff to excite our musical senses with YES music.
Instead of complaining about the interesting variety in the Yes out-put over the years; I find it better that I can listen to Yes-West when the mood arises. Sorry if some of you are not the same.
Who wants caviar all the time?
You do make a good point. Man cannot live on bread, alone.

On the other hand, I didn't find a lot of similarity or repitition in the successive releases of The Yes Album-Fragile-CTTE-Tales-Relayer-and most of Going for the One. To me, that is their strongest, and unmatched, series.

When my mood changes I listen to other artists. The likes of Gentle Giant, Tull, Kansas, the Dregs, Return to Forever, etc could do things that Yes simply didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do. To rely on a single artist to satisfy all of my tastes IS trying to eat caviar all of the time.

I can't live on Yes alone (and neither can they!).

[Rabin105]

Though I am a big Yes fan, I find myself everyday cursing at Tormato, Drama, and 90125. I had purchased them all for 50 bucks from my local BestBuy, but the point is, Yes in the 80's was terrible! Except for Machine Messiah, Tempus Fugit, and a handful more, Yes had turned into a pop-themed monster. Whatever happened to innovation? The raw love and free spirit? I know the departure of Jon, Steve, and well, everybody who has the divine talent required to create classic Yes was a major blow (Oh yea? Then explain the horrid Tormato, which still had the greatest lineup ever), but it rips my heart out every time "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is played. When I visit other prog sites, such Yes fans are considering 90125 as monumental as Tales, or even Fragile, just because it sold. People left and right rate 90125 the highest score possible, it even ranks higher than Relayer. Well, Yes was a sell out, and it breaks my heart. Shame.

I can now understand why Jon, for quite some time, didn't wan't to play any material from Drama.(Other then he didn't record it)


you do realize rick "the wizard of yes" wakeman feels 90125 is a great moment in yes history right.

now i'm not attacking you or anyone personnaly But I feel the 80's yes has some of their finest moments Tormoto is an amzing album Look at On the silent wing of freedom a song that has prog written all over it (it's in what 14/8) but even still 90125 to me seems basicaly the 80's GFTO I know that to some it may be a shcok but the band seemed to be largly more focus true more rock then perhaps they were in the 70's but to me the really recaptured the sound iof realy early yes with amzing harmonies beutiful song work great rocking riffs alan and chris playingis incredibly tight now i think it is a style thing many don't like the style of music that yes was doing they weren't selling out trevor always said he wanted to do more classical things with the band but Chris Alan tony and jon (on BG esspecially) pushed more towards rock and funk and other styles. in fact Steve howe recntly said he wants to do that again with yes plasy rock music that makes people get up and dance (chris alan want to as well)

[SoLrSaYlR]

Well thats fine. More power to em. Let em play speed metal, rap, reggae, show tunes, opera, country or Gregorian chant. Just as long they dont pretend it's YES or call it YES.

[SonicDeath10]

who gets to decide what Yes is? Do you get to decide what yes is? does anybody else but the band members? no. The band thought it should be called yes, and called it yes and it IS yes no matter what you say. It's not for you or me to decide.

[Rabin105]

who gets to decide what Yes is? Do you get to decide what yes is? does anybody else but the band members? no. The band thought it should be called yes, and called it yes and it IS yes no matter what you say. It's not for you or me to decide.
hmmm I agree? sorry for beign confused but are you refering to my post or solair's?

[BlueEagle]

who gets to decide what Yes is? Do you get to decide what yes is? does anybody else but the band members? no. The band thought it should be called yes, and called it yes and it IS yes no matter what you say. It's not for you or me to decide.
Well I would say the MUSIC determines what YES is. They can call themselves Yes all they want but if theyre going to play 3 minute pop crap, the audience will go elsewhere.

[SonicDeath10]

That's funny because Yes hasn't really ever played "3 minute pop crap" so to speak. If you guys payed attention to the song structuring and melodies during the Rabin Era you'll see they're complex and interesting, and almost never just "verse chorus verse bridge". Oh sure that happens, but it doesn't always happen.

Plus, just because something is catchy and short doesn't mean it's bad. I mean yes it CAN mean it's bad, but pop songs are the basis of rock music. I get sick of prog elitists "it's only good it if's 20 minutes and virtuosic" crap. Sure, Dream Theater can play well, but could they ever write a song as melodically interesting as "Can't Get No (Satisfaction)"? No because they just blindly play without bothering to think if it's interesting. Which is what most modern prog bands do.

Yes is great because they have a grounding in pop hooks and melodies. They can outplay just about any band alive, but they write solid melodies and hooks that could catch a whale. This is what makes them great. Not blindly virtuosic playing; not the pop melodies. But a combination of both, seamlessly intertwined. Also, Jon's lyrics and singular vision for the band.

Basically, what I'm saying is that just because a song is short and features great melodies and hooks does not mean it's "pop crap". Pop crap is garbage like the britney spears and Nsync's of today. They have no artistic merit. Great pop is The Beatles, The Stones, Steely Dan, and yes, Yes.

[Rabin105]

That's funny because Yes hasn't really ever played "3 minute pop crap" so to speak. If you guys payed attention to the song structuring and melodies during the Rabin Era you'll see they're complex and interesting, and almost never just "verse chorus verse bridge". Oh sure that happens, but it doesn't always happen.

Plus, just because something is catchy and short doesn't mean it's bad. I mean yes it CAN mean it's bad, but pop songs are the basis of rock music. I get sick of prog elitists "it's only good it if's 20 minutes and virtuosic" crap. Sure, Dream Theater can play well, but could they ever write a song as melodically interesting as "Can't Get No (Satisfaction)"? No because they just blindly play without bothering to think if it's interesting. Which is what most modern prog bands do.

Yes is great because they have a grounding in pop hooks and melodies. They can outplay just about any band alive, but they write solid melodies and hooks that could catch a whale. This is what makes them great. Not blindly virtuosic playing; not the pop melodies. But a combination of both, seamlessly intertwined. Also, Jon's lyrics and singular vision for the band.

Basically, what I'm saying is that just because a song is short and features great melodies and hooks does not mean it's "pop crap". Pop crap is garbage like the britney spears and Nsync's of today. They have no artistic merit. Great pop is The Beatles, The Stones, Steely Dan, and yes, Yes.
Amazing well put I couldn't of said ti better myself plus what makes most of yes's long peices is that they didn't sit down and say lets write a long peice (they only did that twice with varing results endless dream which is good but could of been tightened up a bit and mind drive which is good as well but like endless dream could be tightened up a bit) most of the times the 5 of them would jam or play part of someone else song and one thing would lead into antoher rick put it best "I'd sit and play piano and may be alan and chris would be doing domething an because of the way i was playing or the way Steve or chirs or someone else was playing jon would come in a little early or a little late and we would either elongate a bar or chop it in half no one said lets be brilliant and write complex music most times on the playbacks someone would say what is the F*cking time signature" (not word for word but i belive this is what rick said) and when they were rocking in the 80's that was because they wanted too did they write the next close to the edge no and thank god they didn't (sequels rarely are as good as the orignal I'm thinking of 3 in my mind) I love Cttre it's a classic but why just write a long song for the sake of it they wanted to write short great rock and roll songs with the elemnt of prog still there but with the emphasis more on rock and less on prog but I'm glad they did it was right for that time with those musicans (which i could defend as some of them got a bad rap thank god for the word is live finaly tony can say hey look i really can play keys and well too the b-3 is tony's instrument period and i am tempted to say he is the best or one of the best rhytem keyboardests not to say anything's wrong with rick or pat but they are more lead keyboardists) listening to both the lost yes tracks from 90125 remasterd (it's over and It can happen yes years version) along with those already on the album it shows a tight well playing band that has some great rock moments Our song, City of love, Hold on, and Owner but some great prog moments too Hearts It can happen and Changes Big generator has it too final eyes Shoot high aim low Holy lamb and rhythem of love are some great songs.

ok enough of my rambling someone else turn lol

[sunburstbasser]

Hmmm....

Yep, still like Trevor Rabin's contributions to Yes!

[Rabin105]

Hmmm....

Yep, still like Trevor Rabin's contributions to Yes!
yup Rabin's the man I love his albums and am listening to a micelanious boot of varios tour right now Yours Is No Disgrace from the Big Genrator tour I like it is it different sure but it's still incredibly cool the way trevor play A)wicked fast and B) is able to put his own style into a peice (honestly if he can do it on yours steve can do it on shoot high aim low add some nice clasical guitar touches to the peice man that would be awesome) the way Trevor played most of the yes album material i thought sounded good but he also was able to play steve esque things (the solo in starship trooper i listend to a drama boot and 90125 they sound nearly exact the only thing different is the little shred trevor put into his other than that) plus he wanted to play stuff from the first 2 albums which i find cool (as i think sweet dreams is as good of a closer as roundabout better since it really isn't played to often yeah there was the 35th annaversery but still a song that should be resurected in playlists)
anyhoo Rabin rocks (steve Peter and Billy rock as well)

[SonicDeath10]

I think I'd be wary to hear Trevor playing on some of those Steve songs, much as I like the man. His guitar tone, and style, seems totally off for those songs.

However, I think I'd like to hear Yes, circa 1983, playign CLOSE TO THE EDGE, GATES OF DELIRIUM or THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD all in a row at concert. Now that would be interesting.

[SonicDeath10]

As for Big Generator, Trevor said it was a real drug time as far as the band went, and he didn't want to talk about who or what, but it was a drug time and it didn’t have the same focus as 90125. He said there were moments on Big Generator that he thought were as strong as anything on any Yes album he'd ever been involved with or even heard.
I'd bet anything it was Tony Kaye. Simply because I can't imagine Alan or Jon snorting coke; maybe Chris though! Maybe it was even Trevor himself. We'll never know probably.