90125 overrated?

[vivafra]

I hate 90125.........don't you think that this album has ever been overrated? come on, there are only pop songs, pseudo disco (leave it).........is THIS the yes music we like?

[illusion]

I think you are right. I think it's average at best and not "Yes".

But, other people have views on what Yes is and what Yes isn't.

It's a crazy world out there.

[cinderella]

I love 90125!

So what if it isn't Yes-ish enough! It's still great.

If Jon Anderson would have just left them alone, it wouldn't have been a Yes album, it would have been a Cinema album. Trevor would have sung all the vocals, and I'd have loved it even more!!

So there. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Cinderella528/N99%20Smileys/Trishrazberry.gif

[Amy]

90125's a pretty good album. In fact, I love Hold On and Hearts has some great moments. I could do without Owner, only because I heard it so much. I don't think there's anything on the album I don't like. I'll have to listen to it now just to make sure. :)

[Altres]

Nice tongue action Cindy. :D

[neilius]

90125 overrated? yes and no, Yes because trevor horn was producing (remember those art of noise sounds) no, because it breathed new life into a band that desparately needed it.

[Jackaranda]

I very much like it. So what if it's "different"? Isn't life about change? It's still Yes.

I especially love Hearts and It Can Happen. Hold On was tremendous live, as was Changes.

Of the Rabin era, I rate Talk 1st, 90125 2nd, and BG 3rd.

[Altres]

This is dreadful I know....but I've never listened to it all the way through. I should dig it out and give it another try...but I'm listening to Felix the Cat by Earl Grey. Sorry, another time maybe. One day I'll maybe even buy Big Generator, but it feels dirty to even think of it. Next I'll be laying lines of coke along the table pretending to be interesting......if I ever end up a coke head I have left a living will to have myself put down.

http://www.blackjelly.com/Mag/gallery/kli2a.GIF

[Albedo]

I think it's pretty good for what it is. It's not my favorite incarnation of Yes but, hey, I listen to it occasionally. It does rock.

[JaneEyre]

......is THIS the yes music we like?
Yes.

[Steve St Thomas]

Oh please just stop. . . . . .. .. 90125 overrated? Please. . . . .

Any album that gets Black people showing up at a Yes show isn't overrated. That's an album that bridges across barriers that don't belong in music. Music is only notes, pitches, tones. It doesn't know the difference between a black person, a chinese person, or a white person. Or anyone. It's all in the player, and what they personally bring to each note. Trevor Rabin brought a lifelong appreciation FOR Black people into his music, growing up in Apartheid South Africa. There was no one more pleased than him to not only see more women at a Yes show than Jon Anderson can remember, but also more black people than anyone of them can recall.

Some of you guys need to get over your elitism, snotty purist crap. And see the bigger picture for once. But that's up to you. I try and remember Chris Squire and Trevor Rabin worked their asses off singing the parts of ''Leave It'', and that's not a different Chris Squire that did ''Close To The Edge''. It's the same. Have at least some respect for the work he put into it, even if you don't like it.

[fovman]

If you would have seen the 90125 concert you would like it.
Trevor is quite the rock star....and it was an awesome show!

I think 90125 is their last GREAT! album.

[JL]

I think it is a great album.

It's not my favorite Yes album, or even close. I think you could make the case that it is the best album of 1983.

I actually prefer Big Generator.

[cinderella]

I actually prefer Big Generator.

90125, Big Generator, and Talk are like my children. I love them all and hate chosing one over the other.

[illusion]

Oh please just stop. . . . . .. .. 90125 overrated? Please. . . . .

Any album that gets Black people showing up at a Yes show isn't overrated. That's an album that bridges across barriers that don't belong in music. Music is only notes, pitches, tones. It doesn't know the difference between a black person, a chinese person, or a white person. Or anyone. It's all in the player, and what they personally bring to each note. Trevor Rabin brought a lifelong appreciation FOR Black people into his music, growing up in Apartheid South Africa. There was no one more pleased than him to not only see more women at a Yes show than Jon Anderson can remember, but also more black people than anyone of them can recall.

Some of you guys need to get over your elitism, snotty purist crap. And see the bigger picture for once. But that's up to you. I try and remember Chris Squire and Trevor Rabin worked their asses off singing the parts of ''Leave It'', and that's not a different Chris Squire that did ''Close To The Edge''. It's the same. Have at least some respect for the work he put into it, even if you don't like it.

I fail to see how getting black people to turn up to a Yes concert is at all relevant. Perhaps you could expand on this?

And a statement like:

"Some of you guys need to get over your elitism, snotty purist crap."

also needs explaination.

You sound bitter, for some reason. Relax. It's only music!

[Albedo]

If you would have seen the 90125 concert you would like it.
Trevor is quite the rock star....and it was an awesome show!

I think 90125 is their last GREAT! album.

That was an awesome concert. I didn't come down for a week.

[Steve St Thomas]

I fail to see how getting black people to turn up to a Yes concert is at all relevant. Perhaps you could expand on this?

And a statement like:

"Some of you guys need to get over your elitism, snotty purist crap."

also needs explaination.

You sound bitter, for some reason. Relax. It's only music!

Okay, let's expand.

What relevance does 'Going For The One' have for someone growing up on the streets of Harlem, Detroit or Watts? What would possibly make a person of 'Colour' pick up an album with another Caucasian on the cover (albeit a naked one)?

Not a friggin thing. Totally separate cultures, societies, 'people'. When people say The Beatles changed the world, they are talking about their own neighbourhoods. When everyone says everyone was watching Ed Sullivan the night they debuted in America, James Brown will tell you he wasn't. What could Ed Sullivan possibly offer a 1960's ''Negro'' for entertainment? Not much. It was allowed that Nat King Cole had his own show, but he paid a heavy price for that. Real 'Street Culture' Black acts, all the stuff that was influencing all the Britpop bands like The Kinks and The Rolling Stones, the stuff Eric Clapton and John Mayall were all trying to emulate wasn't shown on TV. Not until Brown was on Ed Sullivan in 1965. THEN Black people started watching.

The statement saying Music shoudl have no barriers, is easy to understand. There is nothing Bitter about me and what i said, you just didn't like the way I said it. But Music has barriers. It's had barriers since Aristocracy kept symphonic and orchestral music to itself and not to the 'simple folk'. It had barriers when Classical went all 'avant-garde' and started incorporating non-Western instruments. It had barriers when Chicago Blues was being born, but no one hearing about it till Bing Crosby starts doing scoo be doo in movie houses. It had barriers when Black Rhythm & Blues was called Race Music. It kindly got changed in the 40's to Rhythm & Blues, but it doesn't get any Black artist much credit in the popular culture for doing Rock and Roll before it got called that. It gets them a Dad, or Godfather, but not King, doesn't it.

So what I'm saying here is that any music that crosses a barrier of skin, dictated by 'music's aim or intended preference' to a particular skin, is not overrated. Try scanning the crowd of a Yes show in the 70's, if you can see them. Find the black people there. Good luck. If 90125 brought in a black audience to a predominantly Caucasian aimed music, then that's gold. That's the end aim of any music, to cross a barrier, and to introduce one culture to another. Or at least its what the power of music truly holds, that rarely gets used because money and advertising dollars speaks much louder than what Art has to say.

It's not only music. I have never thought of it that way, and never will. If James Brown's 'I'm Black and I'm Proud' has the power to raise voice to an entire race that had been convinced it was not worth much more than dirt on the floor and there only to pick up the scraps of others waste, just by illustrating how wrong it is to believe anyone is ''less than someone else'', then I don't see how ''Roundabout'' is somehow more artistic. Or even approaching how powerful music can be as a tool of knowledge, sharing the human experience, telling one's own story in the lifetime one has. It's just an illustration of music powerfully played, where this may be where you get the idea that it's only music. Well ifyou keep listening to music that doesn't cross a barrier, or cast a rock into the ocean, or challenge your ideas and beliefs, then I don't know see how music will ever mean anything other than its surface and reflective qualities. I think Beethoven understood this, I think Stevie Wonder understood this, and I think others have as well. Music, Art and Literature have survived longer than its creators. It can cheat death. I think you underestimate the power of the creative person, and how much seems wasted on ego, showing off, and making ends meet.

[JL]

If you would have seen the 90125 concert you would like it.
Trevor is quite the rock star....and it was an awesome show!

I think 90125 is their last GREAT! album.

Magnification is their last great album.

[cinderella]

To me, Talk was their last great album, but I haven't heard anything after Talk so....

[Paul D]

.........is THIS the yes music we like?


Yes, it is, because, YES it is, and no, 90125 is not overratted.

I work with an individual who is also a serious Yes fan. We recently engaged in a disagreement over 90125; I asked his opinion of Drama, and he said, "It was better than 90125!" Before I could answer him (I prefer 90125), he said, "Trevor Rabin is the devil!" By then I had a pretty good idea of what it was I was dealing with. Since, we've agreed to disagree, but every now and then I'll crank up Rabin's Can't Look Away on my system at work just to drive my point a little harder.

Now, try this: listen to the Beatles' Love Me Do, I Want To Hold Your Hand and She Loves You, then listen to Tomorrow Never Knows, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds and A Day In The Life. Same band (with the same line-up, except for Love Me Do), but radically different music. Was this band at any point NOT The Beatles?

We still have Yes, owing mostly to 90125 and it's (supposed) "non-Yesness."

[illusion]

Okay, let's expand.

What relevance does 'Going For The One' have for someone growing up on the streets of Harlem, Detroit or Watts? What would possibly make a person of 'Colour' pick up an album with another Caucasian on the cover (albeit a naked one)?

Not a friggin thing. Totally separate cultures, societies, 'people'...
(snip)


Interesting point. However, I don't care if a Yes audience is all white, all black, or green with five arms and seven eyes. I just want to listen to good music. I don't care if its crossing colour boundaries or not.

I don't care about the pleasures other people are getting from music. I don't care if I'm the only one at a Yes concert. I don't care if everyone else is male, female, black, white, young, old, ugly, good looking, fat, thin, etc. It's what I get from the music. Not other people.

You are looking too deep into things, I think. Thats okay. You're entitled to do that. I personally listen to music, not analyse it. It can mean different things to different people.

To put it simply:

Close to the Edge is better than Owner of a Lonely Heart.

90125 is an overrated album.

And nothings going to change that!

[Steve St Thomas]

Yes, it is, because, YES it is, and no, 90125 is not overratted.

I work with an individual who is also a serious Yes fan. We recently engaged in a disagreement over 90125; I asked his opinion of Drama, and he said, "It was better than 90125!" Before I could answer him (I prefer 90125), he said, "Trevor Rabin is the devil!" By then I had a pretty good idea of what it was I was dealing with. Since, we've agreed to disagree, but every now and then I'll crank up Rabin's Can't Look Away on my system at work just to drive my point a little harder.

Now, try this: listen to the Beatles' Love Me Do, I Want To Hold Your Hand and She Loves You, then listen to Tomorrow Never Knows, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds and A Day In The Life. Same band (with the same line-up, except for Love Me Do), but radically different music. Was this band at any point NOT The Beatles?

We still have Yes, owing mostly to 90125 and it's (supposed) "non-Yesness."

Nice point. I think a lot of people forget how Boy Bandish The Beatles were, especially compared to The Kinks, The Who and The Rolling Stones. The Beatles were marketed to take home, those other 3, parents didn't know what to do with them, especially The Stones. The Stones looked dangerous. Love Me Do is a marketed, I love you , you love me song, and that doesn't change in the Beatles lyric until around 1965, and Lennon and Harrison, around Rubber Soul. The Beatles were a commerical entity, they made millions selling hats and wigs and toothbrushes (or someone did) and their music was slightly innocent and teenage marketed. Until Harrison discovered India, and Harrison & Lennon discovered LSD, they didn't seem dangerous. If you look at old American bandstand archived clips, that whole EVERYONE loved what The Beatles were doing is just shattered. They debuted Penny Lane & Strawberry Fields Forever to ''the kids'' and it wasn't going over well, not at all. I talk to people all the time in England who watched them from the beginning, and say the las t good thing they did was Revolver, or they just went to crap after The White Album. Honest. It was no different then than it is today about Blink 182, or Weezer, or anyone. There were people who couldn't stand The Beatles because they were too squeaky clean, and preferred the dangerous Stones, or the unpredictable Who, or the Intelligent Raw Social Commentary and Satire of The Kinks. It wasn't all just BeatleBeatleBeatle, and they were marketed to sell millions.

Why Yes is exempt or seen as deplorable for doing so boggles me. They made the RIAA charts, pretty well off, but I know that those are the Rabin albums that did that, since those albums outsold many a previous Yes album combined. And I have no problems with that whatsoever. I knew the musicians were good that were playing this ''Pop'', and they were playing intelligently played and crafted music. I was not insulted in the slightest. I loved them for it.

[fovman]

Magnification is their last great album.

Ok.......up until Magnification..........their newest great album.


P.S.
Big Generator and Talk do have some great songs on them.
Talk is Rabin's ultimate production......I think it was the first album recorded entirely on a computer hard disk..........lots of editting by Trevor.

[Steve St Thomas]

You are looking too deep into things, I think. Thats okay. You're entitled to do that. I personally listen to music, not analyse it. It can mean different things to different people.

To put it simply:

Close to the Edge is better than Owner of a Lonely Heart.

90125 is an overrated album.

And nothings going to change that!

Well thank God me and others have looked ''too deep'' because the world would be full of Pat Boone's singing Tutti Frutti to sterilised sugargum music best used for Bathroom Sealant. When no one questions anything, I need not point to history to show you where that all goes wrong.

I've never compared the two songs like that, and never would. It's impossible. The merits of a 20 minute work over a 4 minute one? Which 4 minutes of the 20 doesn't compare to the other one, and which does? Rabin's solo in Owner had guitarists running left and right to try and figure out what he did and how he did it. I think that little break right after that solo, that picked guitar chord, is as good as anything in Close To The Edge. But then again, I've never compared the two, because I might as well try and get my record/ cd store to make me an LP or Cd cut to just one track alone.

Yea, everything's going to change that. Sorry, but time is going to pass, and we'll all be dead, and then no one's going to be talking about the difference anymore because there'll be some new band that they're all raving about saying there an echo of Yes from 100 years ago. It doesn't concern me what someone thinks today or thinks is set in stone, because I know it all crumbles anyway! Except for the Pyramids. They were built to last.

[Vic Anderson]

i think you people don't give credit enough to jon who rewrote all the verses put the songs together in a more complex way i think off course trev did the most writing but on the lyrics jon worked quite a lot with kepy some yesness in

[illusion]

Well thank God me and others have looked ''too deep'' because the world would be full of Pat Boone's singing Tutti Frutti to sterilised sugargum music best used for Bathroom Sealant. When no one questions anything, I need not point to history to show you where that all goes wrong.

So, you think your better than me? Thanks. Much appreciated.

My way of listening to music is just as valid as yours, thank you very much.


I've never compared the two songs like that, and never would. It's impossible. The merits of a 20 minute work over a 4 minute one? Which 4 minutes of the 20 doesn't compare to the other one, and which does? Rabin's solo in Owner had guitarists running left and right to try and figure out what he did and how he did it. I think that little break right after that solo, that picked guitar chord, is as good as anything in Close To The Edge. But then again, I've never compared the two, because I might as well try and get my record/ cd store to make me an LP or Cd cut to just one track alone.

Err, I don't like one as much as the other. Simple. Why complicate things?


Yea, everything's going to change that. Sorry, but time is going to pass, and we'll all be dead, and then no one's going to be talking about the difference anymore because there'll be some new band that they're all raving about saying there an echo of Yes from 100 years ago. It doesn't concern me what someone thinks today or thinks is set in stone, because I know it all crumbles anyway! Except for the Pyramids. They were built to last.

Eh?

[Faceintheplace]

90125 is far from my favorite Yes album but I think it has some excellent songs and songs I like alot especially "It Can Happen," "Changes", "Our Song", "City of Love," and "Hearts." "Leave it" is pretty poppy but I like it anyway. The arrangement and harmonies are well done. The a cappella version is espcially good. I'm not that into "Owner" or "Hold On" but I could think of Yes songs I dislike more than those.

[JaneEyre]

Now, try this: listen to the Beatles' Love Me Do, I Want To Hold Your Hand and She Loves You, then listen to Tomorrow Never Knows, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds and A Day In The Life. Same band (with the same line-up, except for Love Me Do), but radically different music. Was this band at any point NOT The Beatles?
Ooooh, snap!







("Snap" brought to you courtesy of me watching too much Dave Chappelle.)

[Faceintheplace]

Same with the Who. The Who's My Generation, Tommy and Who's Next albums are all very different from one another and they were all done by the same band and lineup within a span of 6 years. I'd never want a band to sound the same way all the time. That'd be boring.

[Bugeyes]

I can get my fill of 90125 in one listen, then put it away for a long while. That means, to me, it's overrated. :shrug: I'd rate lots of other music higher then 90125.

[Steve St Thomas]

Whoah whoah whoah, nowhere did I say I was better than you. I just came back with the same I don't care attitude you gave me, after I explained all those reasons, and the importance of Music, and the Artist in our world. You basically came back with you don't give a crap about other people, just yourself. So, in regards to all us other people, I responded in the same blase whatever attitude. If you're getting ''I'm better than you '' from that, check out your last comment about nothing's going to change your view that CTTE is better than 90125. Well la de da mister, la de da. I tried to tell you it makes no difference, because songs have multiple levels to them, some you can see blatantly, and some that show up over time.

The Eh? you didn't get?

Okay, here it is. That next generation of fans that needs to keep talking about Yes music, for it to change, or stay the same as to whether Yes is better with Rabin or Howe, needs to keep surviving. And at its present state, the last new fans of yes material I saw, saw the remix of Owner of a Lonely Heart go flying up the charts. Not the CTTE remix. Okay? So what I'm saying to you is, if you want a whole new generation of people talking about this band, its more likely they are going to come from what was their most popular and successful record, not their most extravagant and 'impressive' piece of work spanning 20 minutes. In your isolation of not caring who else likes this or that, you've forgotten that most of the record buying public could give two craps about 20 minute pieces of music about seasoned witches. They care about 4 minutes of Pop, something digestible. Whether this is good or bad, thats for any individual to decide for themselves, but I know the people playing Owner of a Lonely Heart are incredibly talented musicians. Each and every one of them. I'm not getting jipped. I'm not getting hoodwinked. I know they are talented, and I can hear that in the simplest piece of music they perform. Do you think Paul Mccartney is anywhere near the ''technical'' efforts of CTTE? No friggin way. But they talk about him more than they do CTTE.

The audience that preferse ''Classic Yes'' is a village compared to the city of people that bought 90125. And that's what you need to survive, so they talk about you years from now, whether its in disgust or appreciation. The only new generation of Yes fans I can see so far, is the kids of that Classic Village. The next generation of fans I know that's out there are the ones buying the remix to Owner. And buying the Armageddon film score, or raving about Boost Me from Gone in 60 Seconds. When we're all gone, that means you and I , and everyone here with an expiry date, believing that Classic is better than 'West' will expire with it, because the only ones arguing or debating about that are us, and we're not exactly winning new fans doing so. You get me? New fans means crossing boundaries and time lines. Not staying trapped in 1972. And CTTE was not remixed and flew up the charts just a month or so ago. Owner was. And those are the kids that need to be hearing Yes, and intelligently played pop, when there's so little of it around.

[JaneEyre]

.........don't you think that this album has ever been overrated?
Overrated by whom?

[illusion]

Steve, I'm tired so I'll reply in a couple of days.

Needless to say I do think that your post is flawed on many levels but thats for another day.

[Steve St Thomas]

Steve, I'm tired so I'll reply in a couple of days.

Needless to say I do think that your post is flawed on many levels but thats for another day.

I think the exhaustion your suffering comes from trying to keep alive an argument that should have been dead long ago. It does not matter that Rabin joined Yes, or Steve Howe joined Asia, or both could have been in there at the same time. If you're going to apply the rules of ''Pop'' to Yes, you might as well say it about The Beatles as well. Or genesis's Invisible Touch. Or Britney Spears. But I see that it's okay for some, but not for others. I'll remember that next time I hear the early singles of Yes that were all aimed or hoped to be a hit, or that first firing of Peter Banks and Tony Kaye, and that first Gold album award that soon followed.

Let the Rabin Howe debate die, it's all Yes. The first album sounds nothing like their third. Their 7th album sounds nothing like their 12th. SO --- FRIGGIN ---- WHAT. It's when people start putting down particular musicians and blaming them for all their consumer unhappiness that I get the hump. Particularly with the Yescamp. They were in rigor mortis in 1981, you should be happy they got brought back to life in any form in 1983.

[Bugeyes]

Back up:

90125 overrated?I think you are right. I think it's average at best and not "Yes".

But, other people have views on what Yes is and what Yes isn't.

It's a crazy world out there.

[Steve St Thomas]

And when you return Illusion, you'll find this reply.

Leave 90125 alone. You can have your opinions about it, you can have your beliefs about it, but stop (not just you) picking at this album like it's some scab, or barnacle on a perfect ship. That ship is not perfect whatsoever.

As soon as someone says this is not Yes, this is commercial pap, this brought in non-Yes fans that we didn't want or need, or whatever attitude that is held by certain Yes -fans who think they're real fans compared to pseudo fans, you're basically killing this band. It's like some little village where outsiders are not allowed in, and whoever runs that village can sacrifice any member they want, sometimes to public cheers, sometimes to public revolt. When Peter Banks and Tony Kaye were replaced, all I hear are applause coming from this crowd, like it's okay to take away something from somebody that meant the world to them (Peter Banks), or have musical/personal differences that you didn't have before or as evident (Kaye and Howe). But that's okay, because Yes got more successful and got Gold albums and won more fans. The village grew.

Until someone you're pleased with decides it ain't there bag (Rick Wakeman/Bill Bruford) and moves on, and Yes decide to change and carry on. Nope can't have that, the public does not approve. It's not Yes unless we say it's Yes. And the band respond to that because their albums sales diminish, or all the new fans that pick up on them that they didn't have before, start hearing this album is crap, or this keyboardist is lame, or this is the definitive line-up, or don't buy that album because you'll be buying the equivalent of dog poo. So they have to go back, maybe even to carry on, or find something they lost, or something they didn't even know they had to begin with.

Then new fads come in, your type of fan is replaced by a new type of music, or genre. Yes change, because the music scene is changing all around them. They even get rid of your figurehead leader, and make an album without him. And they sell out the most nights ever sold at MSG, but the lead singer has to get jeered and booed throughout, or ''proven to be worthy''. And that practically killed this band. As soon as fans say, we accept nothing but this and this only, you've just killed the band. They have to make choices not only individually, but to keep money coming in. To feed families, to keep the banks off their back. They would have gone under in 1981. That's what that 'view' gets. A total defunct outfit that can go nowhere. And Steve Howe jumping ship and going even more commercial than Owner of a Lonely Heart. ''I never meant to be so bad to you ...... awwwwwwwwww. That's sweet, don't cry.

Rabin brought in 6 million customers. He brought in a whole new generation of fans, that the ''Villager'' afraid of yes changing whatsoever, has tried scaring away, intimidating away, referred to as not real Yes fans, and has totally dumped on the work 5 guys did keeping the name alive so you had something to buy and they could keep doing something they love. But you killed that as soon as you said, it's not the Yes we want, and businessmen started listening to you and saw ''Lost Earning Potential'' and start asking band members to make 20 minute songs into 4 minute pop songs. It's killed right there.

I need not go on how this story ends up. Just leave 90125 alone, it got black people to like this friggin band, and that's saying alot.

[Scooty]

I've always felt that without Drama, 90125 would not have happened. If the band would have called it a day after Tormato, obscurity would have happened a lot sooner. Drama was the beginning of the tighter, slightly modern sounding Yes, 90125 took it to the level of success that personally I enjoyed seeing them have, after all they deserved it. I don't believe it to be overated, I enjoy quite a lot of it. It Can Happen, Hold On, Cinema, Hearts...all top shelf material.

The rest leaves me cold, but it was the album Yes needed to survive the 80's, that I don't doubt for a second!

[kelly campbell]

Steve St Thomas,
Why on this board do we have to bring race in to the equation? The fact that we do so only reflects what goes on in society and I would like to think that we are here to get away from some of that.
Let me ask you a question, how many blacks did you see in the audience for 90125? How many blacks have you seen at any Yes concert since? My point being that I really don't notice what color people are when I go to a show, I don't make it a point to sit and look for racial differences.
I think the comment on the Ed S. show is interesting since at the time was the mst watched tv show ever I would think that there might be more than a few Blacks with TV sets and hve it on the ES show.
Also to think that James Brown was creative is beyond me, he was an entertainer. There have been a lot of people in his position that were entertainers and did not create, Frank Sinatra and Elvis are a couple that come to mind. When I speak of creative I mean write or play music of teir own not just sing what others have written. Beside those points I really think that most of the JB tunes sound the same. Don't get me wrong JB was significant because of the time he came along nothing more.
In the end what was being discussed here was if the album was over rated not if it somehow bridged a gap between racial barriers, the fact that a song or an album attracts people of a different race than normal is not an indicator of it's sense of greatness only that that individual liked it. Kind of like what is going on here, people are indivduals and have an opinion and those opinions really only matter to them.
Peace
KElly

[Jackaranda]

To me, Talk was their last great album


Hell just froze over.

I agree with Cindy.

[RABARKS]

First of all: some high quality bickering and argueing going on here. I haven't had the patience to read all the very lengthy comments on both side, but I always support a good fight with words!

Getting back to the original question. Yes, 90125 is overrated. That doesn't mean it's no good, however! It has it's moments.
But what is especially overrated in it, as I gather from the comments, is Hearts. There simply aren't enough themes in it for such a wanna-be-epic.
For Whitesnake or Foreigner it would be a very good effort, for Yes it isn't. Yes west have done a lot better with, for instance, Final Eyes. :headset:

[PO]

It's overrated.

It was a step back for me. The heavyweight players were missing. Squire and White aren't a whole. Without a maestro guitarist and keyboard player they were just another band. Journey-plus, perhaps. Even Anderson was sick of it after 1 album. One!

It was all contrived and the name didn't fit. I'd bet Rabin agrees. The ultimate humiliation being that the big show-stopper encores were 70s tunes. Doesn't show me a lot of faith in their then-current material. After the 90125 tour they should have dumped all the legacy music. They never should have played it in the first place.

I would have preferred they left the name alone and then regrouped (as they did) with a classic lineup. I prefer not to see a band be a shadow of their former selves. As for the money, not enough of the right people got it.

Union wouldn't have happened, thank God. It would have been a real Yes album.

[jimmygtr]

90125, Big Generator, and Talk are like my children. I love them all and hate chosing one over the other.

90125 did a nice job blending pop sense and production given the times

Talk did a nice job of creating a new concept style cohesiveness for a new Yes in the 90's

Big Generator seems to wallow in confusion of being over produced, lacking direction
and just being an overall odd album to me.

[Flo]

Without 90125, many people in their 30s would have never heard of the band Yes.

[Nes]

While it did bring a lot of new fans to the groupw, the thing is, it didn't really expose them to the older yes, but that really is a minor point I guess

90125 is over-rated. It has probably 3 good songs and a bunch of other weak crappy proto-80s-new-wave bulls*** that really doesn't float my boat. It really reminds me of Decipline by King Crimson. Bring in a new guitarist/singer, change your sound completely, and then stamp your old name on it just to sell more records to not only the newer croud as well as the older fans.

If I wanted to listen to some 80s music, I would probably listen to some compilation simply because that's when singles began to take over music again when only about 2-3/10-15 songs were good (not worthwhile IMO)

Don't get me wrong, I do own 90125, and I do listen to it occasionally when I need my cheezy 80s crap fix. However, it really does nothing for me (especially put up against great ALBUMs such as Fragile and Relayer).

Also, you really should stop your bickering. It's pathetic to see who I would like to think are grown me immaturely arguing about their opinion. Neither of you are going to chage eachother's minds, so just stop trying. I can't believe I'm the one telling you to have stop this seeing as I'm a 16 year old kid.

*sigh*

Edit: I just saw this and couldn't help but chuckle

http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/40_most_awesomely_bad_1_songs/series_countdown.jhtml

[Steve St Thomas]

I quote:

It's funny how people, just won't
accept change
As if nature itself - they'd prefer
re-arranged

[Steve St Thomas]

Steve St Thomas,
Why on this board do we have to bring race in to the equation?

Cuz no one else does?

The fact that we do so only reflects what goes on in society and I would like to think that we are here to get away from some of that.

Hence my main thrust of my previous posts saying that Music does not know barriers. People do, and often associate those barriers upon the music. Any music that crosses racial lines, cultural lines, is truly doing what music, art, literature, were always meant to do. Bring people together. Not keep the Death Metal crowd apart from the Carpenters crowd, or 1950's Radio away from Little Richard.

Let me ask you a question, how many blacks did you see in the audience for 90125? How many blacks have you seen at any Yes concert since? My point being that I really don't notice what color people are when I go to a show, I don't make it a point to sit and look for racial differences.

Question 1) Quite a few. It was a relief for me in fact, being one of them and noticing i wasn't alone. Now if it was a Rob Zombie concert, even though I love the guy, you wouldn't catch me dead at one of his shows. Based on visual impressions of the crowd, they seem just this side of a Nuremberg Rally. And that is a big barrier. You shouldn't feel alienated in your love for a certain type of music, because of the other people that seem to enjoy it for the right or wrong reasons. Music that goes beyond that, is truly doing something wonderful. George Harrison and Peter Gabriel understood this, and made it their lives to communicate one culture's music to another culture. Especially during times when the immigration of that culture into ''home territories'' were seen as a threat to national interests.

Question 2) None. I haven't been to a Yes concert since 1987. How many have you seen? The DVD's I own of Yes in concert post 1987, don't show me many brothers & sisters. I notice these things. It has sometimes informed me who to watch out for at a show who might cause trouble in a mosh pit, or who doesn't quite see things the same way I do. They are the ones in the crowd who often get the artist angry and cancelling the show midset because they're tired of insults. Like the guy who yelled at Gwen Stefani to take her clothes off during No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom tour, pre-Don't Speak success. The whole show had to be stopped while she cussed this guy out. If she had asked me, I would've told her, yeah i saw him earlier. he was an idiot even back then. I don't know. You may go to concerts differently to me, but when you're in the minority, you tend to be a bit less ''have a good time'' about things. Surrounded by thousands of your kind doesn't eliminate the ''Bad Seeds'', but when you're 5 of 7,000, you seriously SERIOUSLY start watching out for where others of your kind are. But don't tel;l me you haven't ever been the minority in a situation and not felt this. Take a drive through Harlem some time, you'll understand what I mean.

Or better yet, the best feeling ever had. When people lock their car doors, or hurry up what they're doing with a car door or trunk open, should you be Black. This was always the best one though. When you're walking home and a woman is ahead of you, and 10 x out of 10, they stop and let you pass by while fishing around for something in their purse they don't need. It's a refreshing feeling. It's understood in today's ''climate''. But it just makes you feel alive, you know. And human. So being in my position, believe me, seeing 7,000 Caucasians all in one place isn't always the nicest feeling when you're not one of them.

I think the comment on the Ed S. show is interesting since at the time was the mst watched tv show ever I would think that there might be more than a few Blacks with TV sets and hve it on the ES show.

I don't know. Check how many tv sets were owned in 1964. What was the ratio per Black to White of people who could own or afford a tv set. And did Ed Sullivan showcase ''potentially threatening or more street culture'' acts on his show? Was it all Diana Ross & Smokey Robinson? Did it present safer versions of Black Entertainment for White Audiences? Which is what Motown had to do to be successful, but it was no different than what happened to Black Rhythm & Blues and its transference over to segregated Rock and Roll. It was actually a brilliant business strategy, until James Brown came around. And Civil Rights.


Also to think that James Brown was creative is beyond me, he was an entertainer. There have been a lot of people in his position that were entertainers and did not create

You have that so wrong its quite unbelievable. I put this down to you not knowing Brown's recording history and the tight control he led over his band, in all its incarnations. I'll have to check the credits for all the songs that don't appear written by him. There are only a few.



,Frank Sinatra and Elvis are a couple that come to mind. When I speak of creative I mean write or play music of teir own not just sing what others have written. Beside those points I really think that most of the JB tunes sound the same. Don't get me wrong JB was significant because of the time he came along nothing more.

Without James Brown you wouldn't have Led Zeppelin's The Crunge. Or Custard Pie. You wouldn't have Prince. You wouldn't have a lot of music that's out there today. James Brown practically founded Funk. And when Funk came around that changed a lot of things. You might as well throw in the Red Hot Chili Peppers while you're at it. Or anything Timberlake does. Or Spears. Or Eminem. The music world owes a lot to James Brown. Why, you can even hear a taste of that in Gates of Delirium. That little section of jazz Fusion has a good history of Funk behind it. Sssssshhhhhhh -- don't tell Yes one of their epics has a James Brown flavour to it.


In the end what was being discussed here was if the album was over rated not if it somehow bridged a gap between racial barriers, the fact that a song or an album attracts people of a different race than normal is not an indicator of it's sense of greatness only that that individual liked it. Kind of like what is going on here, people are indivduals and have an opinion and those opinions really only matter to them.
Peace
KElly

Coulda fooled me.
By the way, the best integrated concert I ever saw, was Average White Band at Toad's Place, New Haven, in 93 or 94. It brought a smile to my face seeing white and black people together sharing music like there was no difference between them at all. It was always the way it should have been, and it made my heart smile with hope for the world. You might want to check out a ''non-creative'' James Brown show for a huge mix of races. Particularly in the UK.

[Mostly Harmless]

I have been hesitating to join in on this discussion because it's sounding like if you don't agree with Steve then you're either resistant to change or your opinion is unjustified. Sorry, Steve, but that's how you're coming across here, at least to me. If I have mis-judged you, I'm sorry.

I think 90125 is over-rated. Just because it was the band's most commercially successful album doesn't, IMO, make it their best album. In the YES catalogue, it doesn't even make my top 10. It has a couple of good songs, but it's just not one of their better albums....again it's just my opinion.

I do, however, appreciate that without 90125 Yes may very well have not survived the '80's and I give it "MORE THAN MAD PROPS" for that.

[Nes]

As I said before. Over-rated is an opinion.

If you don't like something and a lot of people think it's the greatest thing ever, it's over-rated in your eyes. If it's the other way 'round, it's under-rated. But obvously Steve St. Thomas is going to drag on an arguement which NO ONE WILL WIN. Go ahead. It just shows that you just can accept the fact that everyone has a different opinion on things. Just because you can't accept the fact that you won't win doesn't mean you have to drag the topic down to hell.

I think that the album isn't that good personally, but I still own it and listen to it occasionally, and I Do think that it deserves credit for bringing yes back.

However, you pulling the race card on it isn't going to make me like it any more then I did, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a white kid, but because I DON'T CARE WHO ELSE LIKES SOMETHING. I could be the only person who likes/dislikes something and that wouldn't change my mind. And I'm sure that it's the same with everyone else. So please stop preaching your opinion like it's a cold hard fact and everyone else who has an opinion different from your's is wrong.

Also, Steve St. Thomas, if you don't go to a rock concert due to your race, that's a load of crap. Who cares if you're different from the majority of the people there. No one will do anything about you being there due to laws and just because racism is just stupid anyway (that's what most young people think as far as my understanding goes).

Sorry if I seem a bit rude, but I just got a bit frustrated when I noticed that you decided to drag on the arguement farther...

[Yes_Fan_4_Life26]

WOW I really do think that Steve's perspective of a simple album, 90125, could actually turn out like a brawl over what race should a darn concert and James Brown. I mean c'mon people we are just writing down our own opinions on a good album by Yes. I think, Steve, you took it too far from the actual topic of this board. I'm also not saying that you should keep all your opinions and thoughts to yourself (being bad thoughts or good thoughts), but you should some how release your bad (unnessary (sp)) thoughts or opinions to another form of "transcription", if you will, for example, art, music (piano, guitar, violin, whatever), or writing a book. Anything could/will suffice, my dear Yes Fan, so just take that into consideration ok.

Paulson

[gus]

90125 is the best pop Album Yes ever did, and one of the few albums Yes did that was very consistent. I don’t think Yes could ever produce this type of album again and succeed. Believe it or not pop is hard to write. Wasn’t it Brian Eno who said words were the hardest thing to write in music? He can write killer 20 minute experimental pieces but can’t for the life of him write a song that works with lyrics. And wasn’t it Tony Banks who said Pop songs were the hardest songs to write? And, these are quotes from the prog segment. I think it was just luck on how good 90125 was and how well it sold. They caught magic in a bottle so to say. It rates around number 5 of the best Yes albums, in my book. But of course everyone has his or her own opinion. But, one thing we know is Yes is known by the majority of people by Owner of a Lonely Heart, not close to the edge, and they like the song. So Yes wrote some songs that appealed to the masses it makes the album overrated? I don't think so, 90125 deserves it's praises.

But one thing of note, it’s hard to judge an album 20 some years later, especially an 80’s album that has synthesizers (this goes for all bands). I think back in 1983, I loved this album because it was the best that was out there. The Police’s Synchronicity and David Bowie’s Let’s Dance were also very good albums that year. And these albums were better than everything else out on the market. I must have listened to it a couple of thousand times between 1983 and 1984. But now? I never listen to it, but I do that with a lot of Yes’s 70’s albums also, you just get burnt out after a couple of thousand listens. So I listen to bootlegs. If I was a new Yes fan I don’t know how I would feel. Although I would feel that the album is dated because of the 80’s sound, I do know that.

But I judge it as one of the better Yes albums they have ever done because of 1983 and 1984, not what I feel nowadays. 90125 is probably in the top 10 of 80’s albums for all artists, at least imo. There were a few monster albums through the 80’s and Yes’ 90125 was one of them. It was pretty grand in it’s time and I don’t think one can take that away from Yes, just because it’s 20+ years later.

[Jackaranda]

Billboard liked it so much they compared Yes to the Beatles, saying that Yes had the "potential" to be the best band since the Beatles. Unfortunately, history proved otherwise, but that was great to read at the time. And MTV doing the tour, and radio playing 90125 all the time, and people talking about them so glowingly......I loved it.

So many people in the 70's thought I was a complete idiot for liking Yes so much. Kinda like today!

[PO]

Try going to a NWA concert being white. Fear isn't the word! I knew the sound man and he got me into the show. I figured why not? I've never been so hated in my life. I would have preferred to have been ignored. :winknudge I highly doubt any brothers would be hated so at a Yes concert. It's not impossible, but it's just not that kind of crowd. Anything else is just a stereotypical generalization (something we all are trying to get way from).

Leave race out of it. It's go nothing to do with it. Hopefully, people like music because they like it. Not because they should based on race. The first album I ever bought with my own money was a Sly album (Fresh). It was because I liked it (still do!). That's it.

The 80's were pretty light on Progressive. If 90125 was the Best of Breed, that should tell you something.

[Steve St Thomas]

The simple point was, Trevor Rabin was never so pleased to see Black people at a Yes show (due to Owner's appearance on R&B charts), considering the country he came from was still operating apartheid. Considering America's own ''non''-apartheid was barely 20 years old by that point. To me, that makes 90125 a success.

As far as 'opinions' go, it's pretty obvious I have no time for them. Unless they're pretty informed, and go beyond opinion and more into the realm of fact. Opinions are just personalised facts.

[Steve St Thomas]

Sheesh, you guys think I'm friggin hardcore or something? You have a thread that starts out with ''I HATE THIS ALBUM'' and you're giving me problems about Music should have no barriers. I have a bunch of people here saying I don't give a crap what other people listen to, all I care about is me and what I listen to. I'm not even talking about 90125 'The Songs'. I'm taking about society and culture, and the importance of music on a totally other level that maybe some don't see before saying this album sucks, this album isn't Yes, this album is pop, this album blows.

And honestly, I'm tired of seeing this said about an album that was important for a lot of reasons. If you personally do not like me being on your back about it, then all I can say is , don't read it! I just like to write. I'm not writing James Brown's recording history because I need to see it! I already know it. I'm telling you about it, just in case you didn't know. If my posts come across like they're yelling, or argumentative, or have a tone to them, well all I can say is that's 50% me, and 50% you and what you want to see from them. Most of the time I'm pretty calm when writing, which you can't see. You just see words that look like they could be this, or could be that.

My main point is Music should have no barriers. Music is beyond opinion in its truest, honest form, that state before the player touches the keys, or strums the strings. What you do with it afterward is up to you. As far as me not agreeing with you, I don't see it that way. I'm giving you MY side of the tale. If you feel that's race card pulling, when I'm telling you it's just absolutely wonderful that Black people started liking a band that was predominantly 'Caucasian' aimed, then I honestly don't know what to say otherwise.

[PO]

The best part of Yes music is that it's aimed at no one nor any race. It's music.

[Steve St Thomas]

I'm justifying my reasons for loving an album that some people try and convince me through their honest 'opinion', is marketed pap pop, not Yes, garbage, crap, not worth the effort, a blight on Yes's recorded landscape, and it doesn't even have Roger Dean artwork or Steve Howe.

And I'm telling you why you're wrong, just like people have been telling me for 20+ years that 'my opinion' doesn't count when it comes to 90125. Thing is, I'll tell you things you may not have thought of. I'll bring in things that you may not know exist. You can call that race card pulling if you like, but I know that until you walk in my shoes, you'll never quite understand where I'm coming from. If walking in some of your shoes means that I must not care about what other people listen to whatsoever, and be totally concerned with what I want to hear, then I'd honestly rather be me. But I also know what my 'opinions' were when I was 19, and how different they are to what they are at 37. I know that Jimi Hendrix got as much ''flak'' for the music he played from White and Black people, and that's a hard thing for any creative person to deal with. When all you want to do is create something you enjoy and love, and people DO pull a race card on everything you produce. Music has no barriers. The first barrier with 90125 is admitting that it is Yes. It says so on the cover. I HATE THIS ALBUM I do not hear, nor entertain.

[Steve St Thomas]

Here's what should be an entertaining and informative movie about people who try and cross that barrier that should never have existed in the first place, but got created when slave ships started getting built

http://www.electricpurgatory.com/

If you walk in my shoes, you may not see 'Race Card' pulling and run to that reason so quickly. You just may understand I'm trying to give you 10 Good Reasons To Love 90125 (Dr.90125: or How I Learned To Stop Generalising and Love The Bomb).

And I still don't know who's Overrating this album? Who are these people?

[Steve St Thomas]

Here's one of those reasons. As a human being, I respect the person who says this:

There were no real repercussions for what we were saying. You think there would have been. My cousin Donald Woods, the guy who wrote Biko, recently died. And Sydney Kentridge, the barrister who prosecuted the government on behalf of the Biko family is also my cousin from the other side of the family. So, I come from a family that was vigorously involved in Anti-Apartheid activities. My father was hugely Anti-Apartheid. I never grew up thinking what was going on was natural. I remember my dad saying to me “Look, you need to do well in school. You need to do well in history. I want you to learn the history, but I want you to know it is not accurate.” He would point out the things that are inaccurate and how they are completely politically motivated and trying to put across a specific view of the way things went down during the Boer war. So, I had a very interesting upbringing.

First of all, that person is thinking of me in my shoes. I may not live in South Africa, or during that time, but growing up in America and the U.K. has certainly shown me that different forms of Apartheid exist and have always existed. I watched a show awhile ago that upset me to no end. It was a study on the psychological development of children, in different regions of the U.K. One particular study showed 4 year old children shown a card. On this card were 4 pictures, cartoon images of 4 different children. Each was a different race. There were sometimes 2 white children shown, or 3 black children shown, or 2 Asian, etc. Each child was asked, 'which kid looks the most friendly?'. 'Which kid looks like they are mean?'. 'Which kid looks like they will cause trouble'. In every single instance, no matter where the child grew up in the U.K., the white children picked the cartoon white person as the most friendly, and the ''coloured'' or ethnic children most likely to be mean, or trouble. What was even more saddening, was that the ''coloured'' children did the same. They picked the white children to be the most friendly, and totally downgraded their own race. Apart from one black child, who was born with dyslexia, had a broken home, but was being raised totally in knowledge of his black ancestry and history. He was the only child, with so many problems at the start of life, that chose his own race to be the most likely to be friendly.

I think that is one of the saddest statements in the 21st century, to see 4 to 5 year old children believing before they even know any better, that this race is wrong, and this race is right. Blame the parents you say? They are not the only ones to blame.

So I look at Trevor Rabin and anything he does as if it were pure gold, and need not be overrated nor underrated. It needs to be appreciated on a multitude of levels before seeing that surface image of ''Corporate' or ''Manufactured'', because that surface image also taints the perception of the person. It's a cartoon image based on the music contained on a computerised graphic covered album that went Multi-platinum, and one of its songs stormed up the Black R & B charts, where Yes had never been before. Divides, even on the basic levels, that are broken, are divides broken. Barriers brought down.

Yes I do care what people listen to, and why they listen to it. It says much about what they're about, what they believe, and how they think. It shows their preferences and prejudices just as easily as it is to slap that money down and buy the product in the first place.

Music has no barriers. People do. I'm not bringing up Race to tell you you're wrong. I'm showing you The Barrier, and why any breaking of it should be celebrated and appreciated. That barrier existed at Live 8, when Bob Geldof neglected to even present any African acts at a concert for Africa. Once the valid criticism was stated, he hastily recruited Peter Gabriel to assemble as many as he could. And Peter Gabriel breaking barriers between cultures I need not go into. That anyone tries is a miracle in itself.

[Steve St Thomas]

As I said before. Over-rated is an opinion.

If you don't like something and a lot of people think it's the greatest thing ever, it's over-rated in your eyes. If it's the other way 'round, it's under-rated. But obvously Steve St. Thomas is going to drag on an arguement which NO ONE WILL WIN. Go ahead. It just shows that you just can accept the fact that everyone has a different opinion on things. Just because you can't accept the fact that you won't win doesn't mean you have to drag the topic down to hell.

Wasn't about winning. It was about me hearing your voices, and you hearing mine. And that was all. What I got back was '' I don't care about what other people show up at the show'', ''I don't care about divides''. My voice says why you should.

Hell is a perception best defined by the individual. Right now, my version of Hell is Madonna onstage singing about Eradicating Poverty while she's wearing Diamond encrusted rings and buying $45.00 bottles of Kabbalah water from some processing plant very close to a Chemical Processing firm that is known to have contaminated the area where this water comes from. Besides that, she might want to check out the history of Africa & Diamonds, and how many people have died because of that industry, and how many Trade Embargos actually finance a $7 billion a year industry for some and not others. That's Hell to me. You may have different definitions.



However, you pulling the race card on it isn't going to make me like it any more then I did, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a white kid, but because I DON'T CARE WHO ELSE LIKES SOMETHING. I could be the only person who likes/dislikes something and that wouldn't change my mind. And I'm sure that it's the same with everyone else. So please stop preaching your opinion like it's a cold hard fact and everyone else who has an opinion different from your's is wrong.

Was I doing that? Did i openly tell you you're opinion was wrong, or are you just feeling like I'm doing that. I'm saying my side of things. If I present things as a cold hard fact, maybe it is just that. Maybe that's the way I deal with things, because if I want opinions, I'll go out and buy Rolling Stone, or NME, or any other merchandise that solely deals with opinions and not facts. I'm stating what I believe about this album. So far, everyone's outright telling me I'm making them feel wrong for believing what they do. Either I'm really good at what I do, or opinion isn't worth its weight in the first place. Not my aim to tell you you're wrong. My aim is to show you something you may not have thought of when ''dissing'' an album based on who is in it, if the music personally speaks to you, or if you thought it money well spent.

Also, Steve St. Thomas, if you don't go to a rock concert due to your race, that's a load of crap. Who cares if you're different from the majority of the people there. No one will do anything about you being there due to laws and just because racism is just stupid anyway (that's what most young people think as far as my understanding goes).

Sorry if I seem a bit rude, but I just got a bit frustrated when I noticed that you decided to drag on the arguement farther...

Well, we'll have a discussion sometime about what happens at a show to you, and what has happened to me. And then we'll see if your opinion that I'm speaking a load of crap still has much merit. Now that's actually the first time I've told you or anyone here openly, I think your opinion is completely wrong.

You think you're frustrated? :)

[Steve St Thomas]

And how seriously I look into music, and what the person is doing with the chords they play, and the words they say, can be found in small illustration here, if one likes to read things barely ever illustrated . . .

http://www.freewebs.com/extratexture/harrisoul.htm

[Mostly Harmless]

Steve,
You seem really angry. I hope it wasn't something I said, really, I meant no ill will.

In one of your posts above, you say this whole discussion is not about winning. I'm just saying that it sounds like it is. It sounds like you're going to beat the topic to death or at least until everyone agrees with you.

The threads here are for everyone to discuss their opinions and I think it's reasonable, actually obvious, that we're not all going to agree. All I'm saying is that it's OK for us not to agree. It actually makes things more interesting. What I'm getting from you is that if we don't agree, we all need to be educated by you.

We respect your opinion, Steve, at least I do. And the way I show you that I respect it is by accepting it for what it is without trying to change it. And you're right, maybe 1/2 of what I'm hearing is not actually what you're typing so I'll try to take it all in that spirit.

Again, sorry if I offended you.

[PO]

Good luck, Steve. Opinions are simply opinions and that's great. You can give me 100 reasons why I should like potato salad, but it won't change my taste.

[Steve St Thomas]

Steve,
You seem really angry. I hope it wasn't something I said, really, I meant no ill will.

In one of your posts above, you say this whole discussion is not about winning. I'm just saying that it sounds like it is. It sounds like you're going to beat the topic to death or at least until everyone agrees with you.

The threads here are for everyone to discuss their opinions and I think it's reasonable, actually obvious, that we're not all going to agree. All I'm saying is that it's OK for us not to agree. It actually makes things more interesting. What I'm getting from you is that if we don't agree, we all need to be educated by you.

We respect your opinion, Steve, at least I do. And the way I show you that I respect it is by accepting it for what it is without trying to change it. And you're right, maybe 1/2 of what I'm hearing is not actually what you're typing so I'll try to take it all in that spirit.

Again, sorry if I offended you.

Not angry at all. I'm one of the calmest people you could know ''outside'' of the internet. Only the words seem it. It was nothing you said at all.

I'm sure you do see my point though. This thread is started by I HATE THIS ALBUM AND IT IS OVERRATED. If I can say, one, Hate is wrong, two overrating and underrating things are 'naive' concepts best left to those who make money from it, and 3, if I'm making people feel their opinions are 'naive' or 'uninformed', that's not really my aim. If you or anyone feels that way, it's your opinion, you know? I didn't make it, you can change it at any time. The opinion that James Brown isn't very creative or influential is so way off base that I had to say it out loud. To that particular person. I knew the 'opinion' was coming from someone who may not know much about james Brown, or hear how much influence he has had on Black AND White music. Who may not hear it, or look for it. That's not the WRONG opinion. That is an uninformed opinion.

So I go into this saying, okay you have no time for my opinion when I'm working at 100% to show you where I can back it up, and some or all are saying yea that's fine, but it doesn't matter because all opinions are just opinions so stop wasting my time with yours, I didn't care anyway. OR, we're all different. I apologise for being slightly, 'you call that an opinion?' about this. I know what I'm putting into this, I see what I'm getting back.

I have no problems with anything you said in reply. Honest. And at the end, you said exactly what any aim of any discussion should and could be. Try and take it all in that spirit. I'm not ramming my opinion down your throat. I'm telling you exactly what it is, why it is based there, why it should be considered in your overall opinion, and how you view this album, or any album.

No offense taken. I may have caused some ire by saying there are certain snotty or elitist attitudes present, but that was apparent by how this thread was started with I HATE. But I've seen it elsewhere about anything Rabin-related, it's not new. So I'm presenting my case why 90125 is a great album no matter who did it. If you or anyone doesn't care, that's fine. But I'm presenting my view for the record, so everyone knows exactly where I stand on it firmly. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you just come back to me with, I don't care, or I'm not looking at it, nor want to, based on I don't like this album fini . . . . . well I'm sorry. That's not enough. It may be for you or someone else, and I respect that right. But please don't think it's the end all be all of anyone speaking their mind about the value of something, just because you or I say so.

[Steve St Thomas]

Good luck, Steve. Opinions are simply opinions and that's great. You can give me 100 reasons why I should like potato salad, but it won't change my taste.

You don't like Potato Salad? I don't like the combo of Cauliflower and Cheese. It makes me sick. I used to hate spinach as a child, but now I love it.

Things change. I ain't telling you eat Potato Salad now. I'm just saying in a 1,000 words or less, why you shouldn't completely knock it off the list.

[Steve St Thomas]

As for my assertion that some were 'snotty' or 'purist' in their opinions, please see posts 1, 2, and 8.

[Mostly Harmless]

I'm sure you do see my point though. This thread is started by I HATE THIS ALBUM AND IT IS OVERRATED. If I can say, one, Hate is wrong, two overrating and underrating things are 'naive' concepts best left to those who make money from it, and 3, if I'm making people feel their opinions are 'naive' or 'uninformed', that's not really my aim. If you or anyone feels that way, it's your opinion, you know? I didn't make it, you can change it at any time. The opinion that James Brown isn't very creative or influential is so way off base that I had to say it out loud. To that particular person. I knew the 'opinion' was coming from someone who may not know much about james Brown, or hear how much influence he has had on Black AND White music. Who may not hear it, or look for it. That's not the WRONG opinion. That is an uninformed opinion.

So I go into this saying, okay you have no time for my opinion when I'm working at 100% to show you where I can back it up, and some or all are saying yea that's fine, but it doesn't matter because all opinions are just opinions so stop wasting my time with yours, I didn't care anyway. OR, we're all different. I apologise for being slightly, 'you call that an opinion?' about this. I know what I'm putting into this, I see what I'm getting back.

I may have caused some ire by saying there are certain snotty or elitist attitudes present, but that was apparent by how this thread was started with I HATE. But I've seen it elsewhere about anything Rabin-related, it's not new. So I'm presenting my case why 90125 is a great album no matter who did it. If you or anyone doesn't care, that's fine. But I'm presenting my view for the record, so everyone knows exactly where I stand on it firmly. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you just come back to me with, I don't care, or I'm not looking at it, nor want to, based on I don't like this album fini . . . . . well I'm sorry. That's not enough. It may be for you or someone else, and I respect that right. But please don't think it's the end all be all of anyone speaking their mind about the value of something, just because you or I say so.


Actually, I don't see your point. So, someone hates the album. What I see is that if we don't agree, we're "uninformed". And really, the notion that those who do not agree with you need to be educated is an elitist and snotty attitude which is exactly what you are accusing others of having!!! You say that you're not trying to ram your opinion into our brains but just trying to let us know where you stand. Ya know, there are some pretty bright people here! We see your avatar, etc, and we can pretty much figure where you stand on the subject and NO ONE is saying that it doesn't matter, or that you're wrong to be passionate about it, or that you don't have a right to state it openly. But others have the right to state their opinions too, without being told that they're uneducated or uninformed.

I am just saying that there will always be someone who disagrees and THAT IS the end-all/be-all regardless of how much energy you put into defending your position. Take a look at some of the political threads, talk about passionate! But the lesson to be learned from them is that all of the heated discussion that goes on almost never changes anyone's point of view. I know, I have taken part in my share of them. I applaud your passion for the subject, but I'm not witnessing any willingness to accept others' opinions and I think that's what's turning me (and possibly others) off to the discussion.

Peace!!!!

[vivafra]

I agree with you oceanmaid. I have lost all the discussions in this thread that I had started because i've got problems with my PC.......but yesterday and today I read all the posts, and I don't understand the force of Steve in defending 90125........We are here just to talk, not for coming angry one against each other........
However, I also remain in my opinion.........sorry Steve but you failed in convincing me........
Peace.....

[Steve St Thomas]

And really, the notion that those who do not agree with you need to be educated is an elitist and snotty attitude which is exactly what you are accusing others of having!!!

You got it! You got the method to the madness. You now totally understand exactly what it breeds, what it brings forth and what gets issued from its source. You say you don't get the point? You did. And my belief that everyone is smart enough to get what I'm saying is said by how i write this or that. There is nothing there that I don't think anyone and everyone can understand.

You totally understand where I'm coming from, and why I'm doing what it is I'm doing. You give what you take. Now until we can all calmly say, you know what, I may not like it, but isn't it great that this album did this, or that, for others, regardless of what I think about it? I'm already there saying that. I'm already calm saying it. I know it's a fact. Not an opinion. What I'm getting back is I don't care, I don't care, you can't change me. Well guess what. I don't want to change you, that's up to you. Who said I was changing you anyway? Who said I did? All I wanted, my aim, is for someone who dislikes this album full-stop, to at least give it some points somewhere, anywhere, so it's not entirely a negative experience. Which is what I see many doing when it comes to non-Classic Yes album or venture. What I see is negativity based on opinions, not a fact. And that doesn't even give the musicians points for playing their butts off on whatever genre they were shooting for. And that I believe in more than the music itself.



You say that you're not trying to ram your opinion into our brains but just trying to let us know where you stand. Ya know, there are some pretty bright people here! We see your avatar, etc, and we can pretty much figure where you stand on the subject and NO ONE is saying that it doesn't matter, or that you're wrong to be passionate about it, or that you don't have a right to state it openly. But others have the right to state their opinions too, without being told that they're uneducated or uninformed.

I can change the avatar to be a more non-partisan alignment if you like. If it is at all swaying your view of where I stand based on an image of choice, then I would rather change it to be nothing at all, so that doesn't get in the way ever again. I just like the 90125 Y, and thought other things could be done with it, and then just putting some faces in there seemed to me to be more visually interesting than just the Y. I could talk about Relayer if you like as well with as much passion. Or South Side of the Sky or Perpetual Change. As far as instances where 'I don't care' come up, that may be in the eye of the beholder as well. I can point them all out, but it might just be me seeing someone say, I hear you about Black people at a show, but I don't care. Or, I think you not going to show because of . . . is based on a load of crap. I never said anyone here was uneducated or uninformed, or i thought them stupid. I have seen it openly stated back to me I'm talking bull****. You decide what you'd respond.

I am just saying that there will always be someone who disagrees and THAT IS the end-all/be-all regardless of how much energy you put into defending your position. Take a look at some of the political threads, talk about passionate! But the lesson to be learned from them is that all of the heated discussion that goes on almost never changes anyone's point of view. I know, I have taken part in my share of them. I applaud your passion for the subject, but I'm not witnessing any willingness to accept others' opinions and I think that's what's turning me (and possibly others) off to the discussion.

Peace!!!!

Oh I've read everyone's opinions and accepted them. And all I'm doing is saying, well you know what, did you think of this before deciding that.

If we can't, or there is no hope of changing one's perspective on a situation, person, or thing, why bother with anything at all. I'm learning a ton from all of you guys. It's giving me another perspective I didn't have before. And it's making me think more about my choices and what I think or believe. If someone says I don't like this album because it's not Yes, and just leaves it there as if that's written in stone, I honestly look at that and say, you're not even being fair to yourself. I can find something redeemable in just about anything, sometimes even in the worst scenarios or people. And that's come through seeing their perspective and changing mine to understand that a bit more respectfully or even compassionately.

[Mostly Harmless]

You got it! You got the method to the madness. You now totally understand exactly what it breeds, what it brings forth and what gets issued from its source. You say you don't get the point? You did. And my belief that everyone is smart enough to get what I'm saying is said by how i write this or that. There is nothing there that I don't think anyone and everyone can understand.


OK now I REALLY get it....You just want to fight. Well, I don't. Bye

[Steve St Thomas]

OK now I REALLY get it....You just want to fight. Well, I don't. Bye

Nope, that part you got wrong. That's the one time I'll say you were way off. I'd rather you didn't take off, but that's your choice.

[Steve St Thomas]

Apologies to you Oceanmaid if I've given you the feeling this is about Battle and Winning. It isn't. To be honest with you this is what it's truly about -- this is where I'm going:

Statement: 90125 sucks, it's just Corporate Rock.

When I see this, and I've seen it elsewhere, it sets up an initial reaction. One of 'frustration', because an entire piece of creativity has just been flushed down the proverbial toilet. To me, it's not fair to the people who worked on it for 2 months, or 5 years. Whatever it took to make it, I respect that first, before I even hear the music. Maybe that's just me. But the simple rule of Life is that everything is Cause and Effect. For every Action there is a reaction. I don't exclude the Internet from that equation.

But also with me, I'm not satisifed with person A's statement. My line of thinking says, wait just a second. Who came up with the term corporate rock in the first place? Where does this term even come from? Was it media made? I'm looking at that person's opinion more deeply or whatever than even they may have. That's just me. Because I think every person is more than just a 5 second response mechanism, and actually has true beliefs and opinions somewhere lurking underneath the quickpush response, I want to know why they are pushing that sentiment across. I want to know what is wrong with corporate rock in the first place, what is wrong with that in the second, and did bands who were seen as corporate actually have a lot of talent. And that's just on a few levels.

I think you're all smart enough to discuss that with me. I think you're all smarter than This album sucks. This album isn't yes. I want to hear why you think that.

[Steve St Thomas]

If someone stated Yeswest is just Corporate Rock and that sucks, this is how my brain works.

If I found out that the term Corporate Rock came from the Punk Movement in the 70's. And that Corporate rock referred to anything that was not Punk related, everything that had been issued prior to Punk's arrival, I would have to say to the person stating Yeswest is Corporate Rock, ''do you know what you're using as a reference point?''

If that were true, and Punks came up with the term Corporate, it didn't just apply to Boston, Foreigner, Journey or Toto. It applied to everything that wasn't Iggy and The Stooges, or MC5. Or the Sex Pistols, or The Ramones. That it got applied to those 4 particular bands is the mystery.

But more importantly, I would have to say to the person spouting Yeswest is Corporate Rock, ''why are you letting a term originally associated with everything that wasn't Punk, cloud your judgement about this one particular album?'' This person or these people who coined the term Corporate were labelling something they deemed 'Manufactured' and if that meant everything that had nothing to do with Punk, then the list grows larger than just 4 bands. And the main issue Punk tried proving was that you didn't have to be technically proficient on your instrument whatsoever. That's an actual fact. But the history of Pop showed that that was exactly why The Beatles picked up an instrument, or Buddy Holly. And that is also a fact.

That's the way my brain works just on one particular statement. When I hear the opinion expressed, I often don't care who's saying it. Maybe that's not fair to the individual, but what I think is not fair to the individual themselves is expressing an opinion that isn't even in acknowledgement of where it came from. I'm trusting that you, or them, know what they're talking about at face value. But I can ask right? I can verify, correct? If ''Leave It'' is Disco, and this is abhorred, or a Disco Sucks mentality, I ask is that true for all Disco. My mind works like this:

Are The Bee Gees Disco?
Would you agree that The Bee Gees are great, good or bad songwriters?
Would you say Paul McCartney attempted Disco on Silly Love Songs?
Would you agree that McCartney is a good bass player?
Would you say that the Bass lines in Chic songs are good?
Do you think Chic songs influenced Queen, David Bowie?

If it takes me a thousand questions to say to you, you have told me Disco Sucks, but you have answered on one of these, Yes, than you've just made your point that Disco Sucks not true. So you have to look at Leave It another way, because you can't go saying it all sucks and then find certain bright sparks that prove you wrong.

That's how my mind works. That's what you're seeing me post here. You say Race Card. I say Did you think of this perspective about Yes 90125 and it's effect on who came to their shows and who listened to Yes music? Welcome to my mind. It ain't in Attack Mode. I'm just verifying your data so I can see where you're coming from, and if you know where you're coming from for me to actually take it as a really thought out, respected opinion or belief.

[gus]

I think you're all smart enough to discuss that with me. I think you're all smarter than This album sucks. This album isn't yes. I want to hear why you think that.
You gotta stop using these type of words Steve. You’re talking down to people with statements like this. If you don’t understand why people think you are being angry, then look at this statement. You are demeaning everyone who posted saying they didn’t like 9015 by inferring they are not intelligent enough to have a discussion with you.

Also you are ignoring people who’ve stated positive statements. If you allow this thread to continue I’m sure you see a bunch of people jump in and say this is a very good album, and you’ll see others who think it’s overrated. That’s the way it is. Many think Relayer and Tales sucks. Not everyone like's everything Yes has done.

Anyway, from what I’ve read in this thread more people like the album than don’t. Have you even looked at the positive things said about this album, tour and the impact it had on Yes? I think this discussion will do just fine without you championing the merits of 90125. Like I said many others have said some pretty good things about this album, and you don’t need to be the sole beacon for 90125.

[rememberer]

It might be hard to put into words exactly what one doesn't like about 90125. I still don't have a handle on exactly what happened back there, and I'm not sure who does. By that point, Yes' very trademark had become virtuousity, and suddenly they began a descent into music that can be played with four fingers cut off leaving only the thumb, and I don't know that happened either. Did Tony and Chris simply choose to play more "subtle" parts or were there corporate execs in the studio holding guns to their heads and force-feeding them stupid pills? If it's the latter, it's an outrage, I'm sure -- if it was their choice, and it might have been, that's VERY different.

And I still don't have a decent explanation for the departure of Steve & Geoff, but their absence only spelled much worse things for them during that period as far as I'm concerned. It is an easy period to be really put off by or frustrated with, and still one with a lot of unanswered questions, including "who do I hate for this"? Do I hate Trevor for stealing Steve's place, or do I hate Steve for not holding his ground, and for taking up with the likes of "Heat of the Moment"?

Personally, I really like most of 90125, I liked it when it came out, and I still like it. If I compare it to some of the other things that people were doing about that time to be pale shadows of their former selves, it's something that stands out loud and clear above the rest to me as still having a good deal of integrity.

I'm still not wholly comfortable with the chemistry of the Rabin years, and I can't quite put that into intelligent words, either. Sometimes I feel like Rabin just never quite "got" what Yes was, or had too headstrong a vision about his own music and didn't leave Yes enough room to BE Yes. He seems so very nonchalant talking about he thought it would be clever to force his captive band of dinofarts to do a hump & grind song instead of another one of those "cosmic" numbers that, ahem, ARE Yes as far as I'm concerned.

But life is too short to see if I can loathe Trevor for ANOTHER decade, and that loathing may have already cost me the chance to see the Yes I know and love the most in my lifetime. They were just here, they were playing Revealing Science as late as 2002, and here I showed up late for the party because I had already walked away long ago in a cloud of disgust that's cost me dearly. I would rather look on the bright side, and there IS a bright side. And everything else, at least speaking for myself, is just mindless prejudice. No idea now why I couldn't even stand a single song on Talk or Union the first time I grabbed them for a dollar out of the "used" bin ten years ago, except just plain prejudice.

One of the ironic things must be that every door in the universe flew open for me the second I decided that the Rabin years weren't so bad that I shouldn't try to track down the 90125Live DVD. Someone had posted a review of the ABWH demos to a Chilean DVD store website as if it were an official release, and the rest is history... my story really. A year ago the 4th of July since I bought my first Yes boot DVDs off E-bay not even knowing they were boots at that time. Already thanks to the amazing generosity of Yesfans my CD shelves are busting out at the seams with weeds and I am a hair away from a total dream collection of live Yes music I couldn't have even imagined (or afforded on my own), and from seeing Chris, Alan and Steve live for the first, and maybe even the last, time. Beats HELL out of seeing if I can harbor more hard feelings about the Trevor years, by light-years.

I don't know, maybe some people just don't like some of that stuff, and that's cool, don't force yourself to like it, there are still a few things in the Yes catalog I don't like, and would just harm myself trying to like... but please don't force yourself to hate it either. Something as wonderful as Yes is just too rare, and life really is just too short...

[Steve St Thomas]

You gotta stop using these type of words Steve. You’re talking down to people with statements like this. If you don’t understand why people think you are being angry, then look at this statement. You are demeaning everyone who posted saying they didn’t like 9015 by inferring they are not intelligent enough to have a discussion with you.

Also you are ignoring people who’ve stated positive statements. If you allow this thread to continue I’m sure you see a bunch of people jump in and say this is a very good album, and you’ll see others who think it’s overrated. That’s the way it is. Many think Relayer and Tales sucks. Not everyone like's everything Yes has done.

Anyway, from what I’ve read in this thread more people like the album than don’t. Have you even looked at the positive things said about this album, tour and the impact it had on Yes? I think this discussion will do just fine without you championing the merits of 90125. Like I said many others have said some pretty good things about this album.

Okay, waitaminnit. First of all I'm getting feedback saying I'm talking down to people and making them feel uninformed, uneducated, with no rights to their own opinions. I then say, no I don't think that at all, I think you're all smart. I'm asking you if you're opinions YOU'VE thought about, not what I think about them, by presenting other perspectives that may not have been incorporated INTO that opinion. Talk Down? Talk Up? What do you want me to do here? I'm trying both and it seems neither is seen being acceptable.

I've seen every post and read them all. That I don't respond to the positive responses isn't ignoring them. If people are fine just accepting that it helped Yes survive, Yes tour, the Yes Impact, that's all hunky dory. And I've seen that 10,000 times before. I'm giving, if they want it, those people ANOTHER reason outside of the Yes Is My Favourite Band or just a kind of 'this is good enough in the face of all other aspects'. There are other reasons and merits beyond those 3 you know. I'm pleased you think this thread will do just fine without championing. In my world, if you don't stand up for something with everything you've got, you might as well just lay down. That's me. Let me do my thing, I let you do yours.And vice versa.

[Steve St Thomas]

It might be hard to put into words exactly what one doesn't like about 90125. I still don't have a handle on exactly what happened back there, and I'm not sure who does. By that point, Yes' very trademark had become virtuousity, and suddenly they began a descent into music that can be played with four fingers cut off leaving only the thumb, and I don't know that happened either. Did Tony and Chris simply choose to play more "subtle" parts or were there corporate execs in the studio holding guns to their heads and force-feeding them stupid pills? If it's the latter, it's an outrage, I'm sure -- if it was their choice, and it might have been, that's VERY different.

Neither do I on what happened back there. One thing I didn't mind was the 4 finger variety music stylings, because The Beatles, The Kinks, and The Who did just fine with what they had. I just figure it can't be all bad. Not fighting you, just my take.

And I still don't have a decent explanation for the departure of Steve & Geoff, but their absence only spelled much worse things for them during that period as far as I'm concerned. It is an easy period to be really put off by or frustrated with, and still one with a lot of unanswered questions, including "who do I hate for this"? Do I hate Trevor for stealing Steve's place, or do I hate Steve for not holding his ground, and for taking up with the likes of "Heat of the Moment"?

You got me. Unanswered questions.

Personally, I really like most of 90125, I liked it when it came out, and I still like it. If I compare it to some of the other things that people were doing about that time to be pale shadows of their former selves, it's something that stands out loud and clear above the rest to me as still having a good deal of integrity.

A nice point.

I'm still not wholly comfortable with the chemistry of the Rabin years, and I can't quite put that into intelligent words, either. Sometimes I feel like Rabin just never quite "got" what Yes was, or had too headstrong a vision about his own music and didn't leave Yes enough room to BE Yes. He seems so very nonchalant talking about he thought it would be clever to force his captive band of dinofarts to do a hump & grind song instead of another one of those "cosmic" numbers that, ahem, ARE Yes as far as I'm concerned.

Neither am I. I am comfortable with the Rabin/Squire Chemistry, but not the Anderson/Rabin Chemistry. Two strongly different visions, with 2 strongly creative people. In the 80's, Rabin's was more in line with the times. I'm sorry, but it was. That's no slight against Anderson, or labelling him a ''Hippy'', or any sort. The ''Love Generation'' totally started getting backlash as soon as Black Sabbath hit a heavy chord.
As far as rabin's dominance I am disagreed. I can state why or not. But I also know he did not join Yes. He joined Cinema. To become Yes already stated it had to be 'this'. Rabin did not join Cinema to do 'that'. It already has a prerequisite and a past associated with it, that maybe Rabin did not want nor find easy to work under. That's my perspective of it, and in interviews he has stated so diplomatically.

I don't know, maybe some people just don't like some of that stuff, and that's cool, don't force yourself to like it, there are still a few things in the Yes catalog I don't like, and would just harm myself trying to like... but please don't force yourself to hate it either. Something as wonderful as Yes is just too rare, and life really is just too short...

No offense in removing part of the post. It's not that I didn't want to acknowledge it. I'm just appreciative that you personally felt it worth discussion at some length, or just to explain your opinions or beliefs. I know you didn't do that for me, so don't worry I ain't getting big-headed about it. You did it for you.

Look, I know I'm not a popular fellow on the Internet. I know it for a fact. It takes too much work for those who just want to use the Internet for fun, or quick responses, or pure entertainment, to even get into discussions with me. It's not that I'm Mr. SeriousHead 24/7. I just know I take a lot of effort on your part, or his part, or her part. I'm totally accepting of that, I accommodate, I sometimes change, sometimes I don't. The feelings of 'he's making me feel like I have no right'' aren't new. It automatically says, I should learn from a pattern of response. And I have, I've learned a lot about people and the way they think by using the Internet. But you know, compromise is still available. So maybe you don't want to write 1,000 words. You don't have to. I don't want you to personally. I'll read every one of those words and respond, and maybe that does seem like a lot of work for 'what'? I don't mind it personally. I like writing. Even when it means usually 7 out of 10 people don't understand a word of it, or appreciate the effort, or just don't read it at all. It's nice when I get 3 positive agreements saying, I understood what you were trying to get across, and trust me, they are pretty rare, because what I mostly encounter is things like this thread and where it goes and what gets misnterpreted or implied or said.

It's all cool either way.

[gus]

They were just here, they were playing Revealing Science as late as 2002, and here I showed up late for the party because I had already walked away long ago in a cloud of disgust that's cost me dearly. I would rather look on the bright side, and there IS a bright side. And everything else, at least speaking for myself, is just mindless prejudice. No idea now why I couldn't even stand a single song on Talk or Union the first time I grabbed them for a dollar out of the "used" bin ten years ago, except just plain prejudice.

but please don't force yourself to hate it either. Something as wonderful as Yes is just too rare, and life really is just too short...
Great insight. Everyone of us has biases which force us to like something more than it really is and hate something more than is really needed. It takes a lot to realize that oneself is doing this.

I did the same thing with Bowie. I got sick of him when Never Let me Down came out and stopped listening to him for 8 years before I got lured back in, because it has a horrible album. I missed some very good stuff in those 8 years including the Buddha of Suburbia. I’m still sad to this day that I let one album get into my head and forced me to miss so much other goodness that came out the next 8 years.

The funny thing about Yes is it's a group that is all about change. They have changed their lineup so many times and have created so many musically diverse albums it really tries your patience and is hard for one to accept where they are going musically. To be a Yes fan you almost have to like different styles of music, because they have covered them all. They are not a band that decided they wanted to do Close to the Edge over and over again on every album. Bands like Dire Straits, the Grateful Dead and even the Stones are bands that pretty much sounded the same throughout their whole career. I always have enjoyed or given more respect to bands who take chances and try different things out on each album, rather than trying to recreate old standards. This is one reason why I am a Yes fan and a Bowie fan, because there is so much change with both of their music it keeps it fresh and exciting. The drawback of this is you lose a group of fans every time you try something new because your older fan base wants the same stuff. The upside is you’ll get new fans to replace those. But it’s always a big risk, and I’m glad bands like Yes take the risk.

I know many would have liked to see Yes recreate Close to the Edge over and over again throughout their career, but I don’t share that view. In fact I don’t know if I would still be a Yes fan if they did that. But everyone thinks differently, and this is the way I think, but I'm not implying my way is the best way of thinking. I like change and I look forward to it with Yes. 90125, Drama, the Ladder and Close to the Edge. All different and risks were taken with trying each of these albums and I respect that.

[gus]

Okay, waitaminnit. First of all I'm getting feedback saying I'm talking down to people and making them feel uninformed, uneducated, with no rights to their own opinions. I then say, no I don't think that at all, I think you're all smart.
Yea I know you said both. But you are saying both in the same argument, which is contradicting. I chose to focus on the negative one, which I’m figuring others are doing too.

[Nes]

I haven't bothered to read most of the topic above (just skimmed through it), because I know what it is and I don't want to waste my time.

Steve St. Thomas hasn't got the picture yet

I know, you're trying to "saying my side of things" so often to the point at which you're arguing your opinion, in turn TRYING TO FORCE YOUR OPINION DOWN OTHER'S THROATS, which happens to be what you said you weren't trying to do in your responce to my last post, making you a total hypocrite.

Done

I'm done posting in this dumbass topic because it's already going to the s***s anyway simply because no-one will just ignoren Steve St. Thomas/he won't stop making counter opinifacts to other saying thier opinion.

Edit: Someone hates 90125, They hate it. They don't have to elaborate on why. Would one have to elaborate on why they like it?


You either like it or don't. It's as simple as that.


And by the way, IT'S A FREAKING ALBUM OF CRAPPY POP SONGS. Why are you all arguing about it? It's not that big of a deal.

[Steve St Thomas]

Yea I know you said both. But you are saying both in the same argument, which is contradicting. I chose to focus on the negative one, which I’m figuring others are doing too.

Well you know it's all Action & Response. I can do no more than reply back to what I'm getting. I saw exactly where this 'thread' took a nosedive. Though I personally don't believe it has by my own 'lows', I see why others believe it to be so.

I could simplify it, I could explain it in 4,000 words. The point is 90125 is a great album for more than Yes's longevity, Yes's tour schedule, and Yes's fortunes. I tried explaining that on the flip side of the issue is how well music translates from one culture to another. I can point directly at The Beatles HELP! OR Lennon's Across The Universe. Now, whether you see it this way or not, HELP! was made during a time of Immigration by Indians into the UK, that was not particularly popular. You may (depending on your age) recall a similar 'National Backlash' in the US to Cambodian & Laotian Refugees. The climate in the UK was not particularly friendly to immigrant Indians, who were portrayed on TV as snake charmers or waiters. Or misunderstood as all being ''Troublemakers'' like Gandhi who kicked England out of the country in 1948. Those feelings DID NOT go away easily. There's still people of UK birth who feel resentment toward India for this.

Now that I've told you this, look at The HELP! movie if you have it. For one that movie may be all fun and innocent with The Beatles label on it, but look at what is being said about ''Indian culture'' as seen by the Media for Sake of Entertainment and Buying Power'. One, it totally misinterprets Kali, and reduces her to some shock value representation of an equivalent volcano virgin sacrifice thing. Two, the attitudes presented in speech and writing are not all that pleasant if you're Indian. My wife has never seen the movie, she's Indian, and believe me, she has enough problems with Across The Universe and Jai Guru Deva, because she has no clue what Lennon is saying. His mispronunciation of the language leaves Indians baffled as to what he's talking about, but those who don't know any of the Hindi dialects are happy to singalong thinking they are 'connecting' with another culture. But ask her about George Harrison. There's the one guy who took all the wrong things, all the negative things about HELP! and the climate of the times, and turned them into ''let me introduce you to their culture. These are their people. These are their musicians. This is a style of their music. This is a part of their philosophy''. He went even farther with Bangladesh. Now go find that being said about George Harrison in Anthology. My wife, who works in the Indian Arts Community, is one of many who know exactly who George Harrison is, and what he did for them, but no clue what The Beatles were about. No relevance whatsoever to their world, their community, their life. He used Music to do this. He used Music to translate across miles and skin pigmentation like a friendly ambassador. And now look at what gets said about Paul McCartney and John Lennon in comparison to Harrison, for things, to a whole community of the world, that seem far less valuable in comparison.

90125 was a good thing for Yes because it started getting Black people to go to their shows, or at least listen to one of their songs. It said we'd like you to listen to, because we've listened to you through years, through your music and your artists, and we've loved what you've done. Trevor Horn's almost entire production credits lean towards Funk/Soul/R & B, some form of Black Music appreciated by White Musicians. That Trevor Rabin appears on a Michael Jackson or Seal album says a lot as well, and how easy people travel between these two communities and distinctions without barriers.

[Steve St Thomas]

I haven't bothered to read most of the topic above (just skimmed through it), because I know what it is and I don't want to waste my time.

Steve St. Thomas hasn't got the picture yet

I know, you're trying to "saying my side of things" so often to the point at which you're arguing your opinion, in turn TRYING TO FORCE YOUR OPINION DOWN OTHER'S THROATS, which happens to be what you said you weren't trying to do in your responce to my last post, making you a total hypocrite.

Done

I'm done posting in this dumbass topic because it's already going to the s***s anyway simply because no-one will just ignoren Steve St. Thomas/he won't stop making counter opinifacts to other saying thier opinion.

Edit: Someone hates 90125, They hate it. They don't have to elaborate on why. Would one have to elaborate on why they like it?


You either like it or don't. It's as simple as that.


And by the way, IT'S A FREAKING ALBUM OF CRAPPY POP SONGS. Why are you all arguing about it? It's not that big of a deal.

Do as you like Nes. Your choice. Like I said before, people are giving or saying I'm making them feel wrong, or misinformed. I say no I'm not, I think you're right, but may not have some information you don't know, or might not know, or just something you're just not telling me. I get the feeling I'm talking down to people, told I'm talking down, I talk up, and I'm told I'm talking down again.

Hypocrites are aplenty, there's one around every corner!

I got the picture a long, long time ago. You, we, I, all see the world very very differently. The more I illustrate the way I see things, the less you want to know. The more I see you not caring, the more I concern myself with having you understand me and where I'm coming from. It's a cycle, I know it, i see it, I ride it. You want to get off now, and that's fine. But there is positively nothing worse in speaking or talking, that I can think of, than being misunderstood, or not understood.

[Insane Teacher]

Here is my take. I discovered Yes in the early 1970s and immediately fell in love with the music. When I was in law school from 1981 to 1984, I still listened to Yes. I was particularly into Awaken and GFTO in general. My friends all questioned my taste in music and gave me a lot of grief about Yes, Genesis, etc.

Then, suddenly, a miracle occurred. Yes released Owner of a Lonely Heart my third year of law school, and everyone loved it. We danced to it. It went to no. 1. And I hear over and over, maybe your taste isn't so bad afterall. It was so funny and fun.

I loved the album back then. I used to play it before running every day. I still like it. But it doesn't draw me back for repeated listens like some other Yes music does, including some tracks from Magnification. I think it is a very melodic record, but to me its tracks do not evoke emotion in me like many other Yes songs do.

That is my personal take. It is the way the album affects me. It certainly could affect others differently.

[Roan's Lady]

I got the picture a long, long time ago. You, we, I, all see the world very very differently. The more I illustrate the way I see things, the less you want to know. The more I see you not caring, the more I concern myself with having you understand me and where I'm coming from. It's a cycle, I know it, i see it, I ride it. You want to get off now, and that's fine. But there is positively nothing worse in speaking or talking, that I can think of, than being misunderstood, or not understood.

Well, this about blows me away.
What was the topic? Does it matter?
Relevant and far-reaching words, Steve. :thumbup:

[breadboy526]

:theband: its a good album in an early 80s kind of way. of course the only yes album to go #1, and many of the tracks wrer played on radio ad nausiam, & that makes it sound so dated today. good tunes, but they lack the timeless quality of most other yes music

[JaneEyre]

Do as you like Nes. Your choice. Like I said before, people are giving or saying I'm making them feel wrong, or misinformed. I say no I'm not, I think you're right, but may not have some information you don't know, or might not know, or just something you're just not telling me. I get the feeling I'm talking down to people, told I'm talking down, I talk up, and I'm told I'm talking down again.

Hypocrites are aplenty, there's one around every corner!

I got the picture a long, long time ago. You, we, I, all see the world very very differently. The more I illustrate the way I see things, the less you want to know. The more I see you not caring, the more I concern myself with having you understand me and where I'm coming from. It's a cycle, I know it, i see it, I ride it. You want to get off now, and that's fine. But there is positively nothing worse in speaking or talking, that I can think of, than being misunderstood, or not understood.
Wow. Once again you blow me away with one of your posts.

[Steve St Thomas]

Roan/Jane

Don't know what to say other than Thank You. :)

[Jacaranda]

You sound bitter, for some reason. Relax. It's only music!

lol, you have read the VERY first sentence of the first post in this thread, right? I think you are talking to the wrong person.

[cinderella]

Well I believe, it's just a nice healthy discussion, with opinions being shared. Music brings out the passion in people. It can't be helped.

[Steve St Thomas]

Well I believe, it's just a nice healthy discussion, with opinions being shared. Music brings out the passion in people. It can't be helped.

yea I felt that way about Britney Spears TOXIC. I was passionately trying to get it out of my head from its constant rotational status, before a brick wall seemed the best solution.


TRAVIS has the same effect really. Though less painful, ''there is no wrong, there is no right'' just rotates and rotates around and around.

[cinderella]

yea I felt that way about Britney Spears TOXIC. I was passionately trying to get it out of my head from its constant rotational status, before a brick wall seemed the best solution.


:lmao: I'm afraid I have to agree.

[Steve St Thomas]

Don't be afraid

[Steve St Thomas]

When Trevor left, so many possibilities for YES seemed to head out with him. That's why I guess I'm so ''passionate'' about his time in the band. I heard nothing wrong with Yes 80's. Nor Yes 70's. There are moments of course on each album I'm not ''over the moon'' about, but I realise first and foremost, they didn't necessarily do it for my ears only.

I just know I love all kinds of music. Music, Art, and Literature were my first loves. They just meant so much to me, so it's really been interesting trawling the net for 6 years and seeing my illusions shattered!!!! You know, if I really loved 1 album by a band, I'd go out and buy all their albums, and that was with Yes, George Harrison, Peter Gabriel, Frank Zappa, Fishbone, King's X, XTC, Sly & The Family Stone, Parliament/Funkadelic/Bootsy's Rubber Band/George Clinton, Chic, The Bee Gees, Black Sabbath, Stevie Wonder, Queen . . . . honestly, that list goes on and on. I absolutely love music, if not all the personalities behind it. Even in the ''worst'' band, ''worst'' song, I can find something redeemable in it. I couldn't stand Guns & Roses, but I thought Slash & Izzy were actually pretty good.

I don't know. Sometimes I have to shut off all the opinions I've read at various Internet sites about this album, that album, that band, that song while I'm listening to it. I didn't listen to XTC for 2 years because the fans pissed me off so much. Especially if I've grown up listening to it, and if it was a ''gateway'' song to an entire catalogue. When I'm listening to ''Our Song'', I'm hearing all those little guitar bits Rabin's doing, and the pretty much ''classic'' Squire bass lines, in a song that has never truly been my favourite on 90125. But I find all the things I like about it, and it makes the song so much better, or at least pleasing or exciting to listen to.

I still say YES would have been on the Armageddon soundtrack, with heaploads of teenagers raving about a band that has been around for over 30 years. Crap -- Aerosmith did it didn't they?

[cinderella]

I still say YES would have been on the Armageddon soundtrack, with heaploads of teenagers raving about a band that has been around for over 30 years. Crap -- Aerosmith did it didn't they?

Yeah and since Trevor scored the movie, he could have easily slipped in a little Yes music.

[Steve St Thomas]

Yeah and since Trevor scored the movie, he could have easily slipped in a little Yes music.

Yea! I'm calling his agent and asking him why he didn't!

[gus]

I just know I love all kinds of music. Music, Art, and Literature were my first loves. They just meant so much to me, so it's really been interesting trawling the net for 6 years and seeing my illusions shattered!!!! You know, if I really loved 1 album by a band, I'd go out and buy all their albums, and that was with Yes, George Harrison, Peter Gabriel, Frank Zappa, Fishbone, King's X, XTC, Sly & The Family Stone, Parliament/Funkadelic/Bootsy's Rubber Band/George Clinton, Chic, The Bee Gees, Black Sabbath, Stevie Wonder, Queen . . . . honestly, that list goes on and on. I absolutely love music, if not all the personalities behind it. Even in the ''worst'' band, ''worst'' song, I can find something redeemable in it. I couldn't stand Guns & Roses, but I thought Slash & Izzy were actually pretty good.

This statement is a lot like myself. I’ve owned probably over 6,000 vinyl, cassette, CD’s etc… through the years. And when I get into an artist I buy everything by them. I’ve owned the whole catalog for tons of bands. King Crimson, Yes, Genesis and solo, Grateful Dead, Ramones, The Who & Pete solo, Talking Heads, every Santana album, etcetera. I could list another 50 bands after these where I own everything by that said band (or I did at one time).

So I think you and I like everything an artist does, and find the good stuff in every album and are not biased by a particular period in a Band or artists career. I argue on this site, a David Bowie site and the Genesis site that their later work is sometimes just as good as their earlier work. Like Magnification for example, why is this album any worse than Tormato? Well just because it’s new and not from the 70’s, so it’s considered worse by some fans. I like every Yes album, and I find good things in Time and A Word, Fragile, 90125 and the Ladder. I also can find bad things in Relayer, The Ladder, Tales and Magnification. It doesn’t matter to me what period the music comes from, the quality and/or the mediocrity is apparent to me by the music alone, not by the time period.

What it comes down to is no Yes album is perfect (nor is any other band’s album), although I’ll admit CTTE comes close. LOL! But I am willing to find the good and bad and make my decisions on that said album. Others will dismiss an album off of biases, which I’ve always found ridiculous. But I have realized is everyone thinks differently than I so I respect their opinion. It’s just I and it seems like you that are more objective when it comes to listening and judging music over some others.

Btw, Guns & Roses User Your Illusion 1 & 2 was some pretty good stuff. I always thought it was quite an accomplishment to release 4 albums (two 2 disc albums) at once where all the music was good. But I’ll admit I haven’t listened to G&R in 8 years at least. But they were fun in the 80’s.

[new_sum_do_solve_ay]

I love 90125!

So what if it isn't Yes-ish enough! It's still great.

If Jon Anderson would have just left them alone, it wouldn't have been a Yes album, it would have been a Cinema album. Trevor would have sung all the vocals, and I'd have loved it even more!!

So there. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Cinderella528/N99%20Smileys/Trishrazberry.gif


Overrated? Hell no!!

I agree totally with the blue-dress-icon girl. Some people have a knee jerk reaction against 'pop' who knows why. But even if you ignore the hits what about Cinema!? C'mon has there ever been a tune like that? Cinema pushes the envelope so far its unreal.

The dispute here is getting used to Trevor's guitar vs the melodic style we had with Steve. The complexity is there, its just expressed in a different energy than the organic melodies we've come to expect from Steve. This album rocks.

[Jacaranda]

Yeah and since Trevor scored the movie, he could have easily slipped in a little Yes music.

Hmm, I can't think of any Yes tunes that would have fit with the movie and other songs included on the soundtrack. The choices, like Aerosmith, ZZ Top, were 'attitude rock' I guess is the only way I can put it, reflecting the characters of the miners in the movie, to me. It would be cool if Trevor and Jon could agree on a song to include on one of TRs scores in the future, but I get the feeling they are not on those kind of speaking terms. It seems TR's contact to Yes is mostly through Chris Squire.

[YesJen357]

90125 over-rated??? HA!

Possibly, only if you compare it to the singing and music of the Angels in Heaven!

[sunburstbasser]

Its actually the Rabin-YES album I've listened to the least. I do enjoy it though, quite a lot actually.

This site and people like Cindy helped me get into it, BG and Talk. I like all of them quite a lot now.

[steelyDan]

All those who still doubt the qualities of 90125,Big Generator,and Talk, as if to suggest that it isn't the real-Yes-work, either they didn't listen good enough,and therefore missed the omnipresent colossal impact the music was carrying ,or simply they are unconsciously taking side, because they don't see Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman taking part in it ! The simple answer to this, is that Steve and Rick have left YES because they wanted to go SOLO . At that time it was obvious : First you join a band,and then you split to go SOLO.
When Trevor Rabin came ,long after Jon ,Steve and Rick had already left,didn't have any intention to join YES,but to form a band called "CINEMA" ,together with Chris Squire that he met by chance.
When CINEMA was formed , the name has leaked into the press,and many other groups claimed their name was also CINEMA,and wanted compensation. But it didn't happen . Keeping the name YES was the best option left. So they called Alan White to join in,and later Tony Kaye . John Anderson heard about the new YES with a new fomula,listened to all the stuff made by Trevor and Chris, wrote some lyrics and made a couple of changes here and there , and the new YES is reborn !
A slight change in style was also a clear choice, and that is the reason why 90125 & Big Generator incorporated a hard-rock-like ingredients,because a different line-up requires a different "sound",and that's what really took place.
The unique sound characteristics that we find in 90125, are due to the use of the FAIRLIGHT and the SYNCLAVIER instruments,both introduced and operated by Trevor Horne. For instance , the drumbreaks we hear on Owner of a lonely heart,are a sample of a drum pattern of the Fifties,played by Alan White not on the drums but on the keys of the FAIRLIGHT. And there are plenty of these kind of effects all over the record. And the Christal clear sound of the accoustic guitars on the whole record, beautifuly orchestrated by Trevor Rabin is carefully done with the help of the SYNCLAVIER,along with a variety of other features , never achieved before .
So I believe stongly, that those who underrate 90125,and what had followed up shortly after , in the so called "new-YES-era" , weren't able to see the historic change through its real context. Because thanks to the tremendous contribution of TREVOR RABIN that YES still continue to exist today !

[MikePike]

I never liked Rabin with the vocals. Jon anderson defines yes in my mind.

[PO]

All those who still doubt the qualities of 90125,Big Generator,and Talk, as if to suggest that it isn't the real-Yes-work, either they didn't listen good enough,and therefore missed the omnipresent colossal impact the music was carrying ,or simply they are unconsciously taking side, because they don't see Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman taking part in it
Well, people had 10 years to listen to 3 albums. We barely had 10 months to digest Tales before Relayer came out. Those two albums exceed the entire output of YesWest (I'm not even including Fragile or GFTO).

Downes also had the Fairlight during the Drama era. I didn't see the Synclavier or Fairlight on the stages during the YesWest tours, though (Downes brought his along). I wonder why not? If keyboards are such a critical element, I'm surprised that such a minimal setup was used on the tours. Also, many types of guitars were available but very few were used.

It's a different band from a different era. People like different things.

[steelyDan]

Paostby, quantity does not always mean quality,and the reason that there were only 3 albums produced in 10 years,didn't have to mean there was a lack of musical ideas ! I just cannot believe that many yesfans, keep on using the same arguments , concerning that YES-period ! If you are doubting the musical skills of Trevor,then you are admitting your non-appreciation of music in general . Besides ,it isn't fair to deny Trevor the achievements he had brought and the extra dimension he added to the YES-music . It isn't also fair to make believe that Steve & Rick had made their comeback (after they literally walked out a decade earlier,leaving YES on the brink of "collapse") only because it was their obligation , but rather because the YES they have left, has now gained more dynamic and has survived 10 long years without them.
In this regard , Trevor Rabin should be seen as the "saviour" ,which in the eyes of many ,still isn't admitted . I wonder why ?

[rgfudd99]

90125 is not my favorite YES album but it's importance as a YES album can not be overrrated. Remember there was no YES in 1981 or 1982, they were not a functioning band anymore. It was over. They had broken up. Without 90125 , YES may have never regrouped again. For some people, this album was their introduction to YES. Personally, it's the only Rabin era CD that I bought and over the years I have liked it less not more. Owner is still a great song. I like Changes and Cinema and Leave It are still very good too. I bought the album. I loved it at the time but I don't find myself wanting to give it another listen. I went to the show and I was very disappointed. This wasn't the YES that I remembered. Trevor just didn't do it for me as a live performer. I didn't see them again until ABWH and then the Union tour.

[JB86]

I'm a "Generator". Meaning that I think this album is a definitive part of the Yes collection. I've mentioned in the past that I think Trevor Rabin's 'sound' on Big Generator and Owner of a Lonely Heart is amazing. The stuff he does with that guitar is pretty amazing, especially at the end of the guitar solo on Big Generator.
So yeah. I don't think 90125 is overrated at all. Like people have been saying, it breathed life into a band that had almost conked out.

[FieldsOfGreen]

We barely had 10 months to digest Tales before Relayer came out. Those two albums exceed the entire output of YesWest (I'm not even including Fragile or GFTO).

That's interesting and confirms a theory I have about some 'progfans': for them if a song is under 10 minutes, it can't be a good song and it's not 'good ol'prog music' (I simplify a little but I guess you know what I mean). ;)

As a padawan songwriter, I have this strong feeling that it's often easier to write a long piece of music (in which you mix a couple of themes that you stretch out until you have the desired length) than to concentrate the same complexity in a five minutes song.
The real difficulty is to make the song efficient and pleasant to hear from his first to his last second.
That's why I think 90125 is really <b>underrated</b>, if you listen carefully you will hear the complexity of each arrangement, instrument choice, sound, rythm and melody. At the risk of being provocative, I'd say that each song of 90125 is more complex than the whole Tales!
(I'm not saying that of Relayer though because 'The Gates of Delirium' is really complex AND well constructed, thanks to Mr Patrick Moraz)

Another thing I like in 90125 is the amazing variety and quality of the guitar sounds. I always liked Steve Howe acoustic guitar playing but I don't like most of his electric guitar sounds and playing until Tormato and Drama (I think Steve was at his best in Drama).
What Trevor Rabin brings in 90125 is really interesting and pleasant to hear.

Anderson, Squire, Rabin, White, Kaye AND Horn : this 1983 album still sounds very good in 2005 IMHO and is still one of my all time favorites!


:angel:

[steelyDan]

I'm a "Generator". Meaning that I think this album is a definitive part of the Yes collection. I've mentioned in the past that I think Trevor Rabin's 'sound' on Big Generator and Owner of a Lonely Heart is amazing. The stuff he does with that guitar is pretty amazing, especially at the end of the guitar solo on Big Generator.
So yeah. I don't think 90125 is overrated at all. Like people have been saying, it breathed life into a band that had almost conked out.

It's peculiar to notice that BIG GENERATOR , in spite of the diversity of all its tunes , didn't sell well ! But this could only mean that the marketing hasn't done enough to promote it , because it contains a serie of marvelous tunes all the way,right from the start . Just like 90125, BIG GENERATOR takes me away ,every time I listen to it , and there are so many details on each track that still make me thrilled . For instance, at the end of FINAL EYES,there is this magical guitar line, making his way to the fade-out,so perfectly arranged,before it died down beautifuly. Then comes the monumental opera-like track of I'M RUNNING that lifts you up from your chair,and takes you literally "to a new world" !! How can I forget to mention LOVE WILL FIND A WAY , RHYTHM OF LOVE ,BIG GENERATOR(track)....
On the other hand, I am absolutely certain that a record that sells well,doesn't necessarily mean it contains better songs than the one that didn't sell well.

[PO]

Paostby, quantity does not always mean quality,and the reason that there were only 3 albums produced in 10 years,didn't have to mean there was a lack of musical ideas ! I just cannot believe that many yesfans, keep on using the same arguments , concerning that YES-period ! If you are doubting the musical skills of Trevor,then you are admitting your non-appreciation of music in general . Besides ,it isn't fair to deny Trevor the achievements he had brought and the extra dimension he added to the YES-music . It isn't also fair to make believe that Steve & Rick had made their comeback (after they literally walked out a decade earlier,leaving YES on the brink of "collapse") only because it was their obligation , but rather because the YES they have left, has now gained more dynamic and has survived 10 long years without them.
In this regard , Trevor Rabin should be seen as the "saviour" ,which in the eyes of many ,still isn't admitted . I wonder why ?
You make way too many assumptions. Besides, everything in this thread deals with the subjective. There are no right or wrong answers. Just opinions.

[steelyDan]

You make way too many assumptions. Besides, everything in this thread deals with the subjective. There are no right or wrong answers. Just opinions.
Well you know,Paostby, I listened to YES since 1971,and I think I could know a little bid about their music and what happened along the way,to try to share it with everyone else. That's all.

[HaroldLand]

No, 90125 wasn't overrated. For its time, musically it was outstanding. It contained pop, avante-gard, and progressive (for its day) tunes. In addition to being a comeback album for a band that had ceased to exist, it also contained a song that was a number one hit in most countries of the world. The shows from the tour that supported the album were exciting and fun which was a reflection on 90125.

[PO]

Well you know,Paostby, I listened to YES since 1971,and I think I could know a little bid about their music and what happened along the way,to try to share it with everyone else. That's all.
Me, too. I've been playing Yes and a lot of Progressive music since '74. Yes, Tull, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc. etc. We had no Internet, sheet music, etc. Just a record player. We spent a lot of time analyzing and dissecting this kind of music.

People still manage to come up with different opinions, though.

[shortexchanges]

90215 is underappreciated by the hardcore 70's fans.

[steelyDan]

Me, too. I've been playing Yes and a lot of Progressive music since '74. Yes, Tull, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc. etc. We had no Internet, sheet music, etc. Just a record player. We spent a lot of time analyzing and dissecting this kind of music.

People still manage to come up with different opinions, though.

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion,but an opinion can be susceptible to revision,I guess.

[rgfudd99]

90215 is underappreciated by the hardcore 70's fans.

I think that sums it up perfectly. Well put, shortexchanges.

[Ryan]

i don't mind it, but its not my cup of tea. i've probably only listened to the whole thing through twice

[Close to Loch Ness]

There is no doubt that 90125 was an extremely important album which ensured the band's survival. It is very well produced with several good songs, but it is mainly Trevor's songs given a Yes type treatment and it ends up sounding like an 'American style' AOR album. There is nothing wrong with that, but Yes are a very identifiable English band like Genesis or the Kinks and this album did not have that stamp on it.
Is it overrated - No, because of the first sentence.
Is it Yes - Not without Steve

This of course is only my humble opinion
Brian
:rightG:

[gingerbaker]

I saw the 90125 and big generator tours. They were great shows. The stage design was unique and both shows were sellouts in Houston.Rabin can play with the best of them. What Yes needs now is another 90125 as far as sales are concerned.Unfortunately i do not believe that Yes will record another album. Jon has said this several times.Also Wakeman has said he is done touring after 2006 and 2006 will be solo shows. So i believe the 35 aniversary tour is it.

[SonicDeath10]

No I think it rates pretty lowly on the general radar, and for many Yesfans it's the nadir. It's absolutely a new breath of fresh air and is very interesting for what it is. HIGH QUALITY ARTISTIC 80'S ROCK AND POP which I didn't think was possible, but it was.

[PO]

90215 is underappreciated by the hardcore 70's fans.
Does that make them okay, good, bad, or what?

[JL]

That's interesting and confirms a theory I have about some 'progfans': for them if a song is under 10 minutes, it can't be a good song and it's not 'good ol'prog music' (I simplify a little but I guess you know what I mean). ;)

As a padawan songwriter, I have this strong feeling that it's often easier to write a long piece of music (in which you mix a couple of themes that you stretch out until you have the desired length) than to concentrate the same complexity in a five minutes song.
The real difficulty is to make the song efficient and pleasant to hear from his first to his last second.

I might say that there was something to this theory if it wasn't in the context of a reply to a post by paostby, one of YesFans five or six most outspoken Gentle Giant fans. If you are unfamiliar with GG, they are the apex of the ability to "concentrate the same complexity in a five minutes song."

I must add that many of their complex five minute songs are music that I have an emotional attachment to; music that moves me to more and varied places than most bands are capable of. It's not complex just to prove they can, at least when it is being played within earshot of yours truly.

I love 90125. I love Big Generator even more. I prefer Fragile through Drama, ABWH and Magnification to these two, but I enjoy the first two West albums from time to time. I was all about both of those albums when they were new. In 1983 and 1987, Yes was amongst the best stuff happening IMHO.

[PO]

Thanks, JL. I think there are quite a few of my all-time favorite songs that clock in at "a mere" 5 minutes. :winknudge. I know I spent more time figuring out In a Glass House (the song) than Siberian Khatru. The latter is over twice as long as the former.

Confirming theories was even difficult for Einstein. Something (or someone ;)) always throws a spanner in the works.

[FieldsOfGreen]

JL, there are many good points in your post, and in the light of what you said I must admit that my theory doesn't apply to paostby! :thumbs:

Confirming theories was even difficult for Einstein. Something (or someone ;)) always throws a spanner in the works.

Looks like I was building mine on shifting sands! ;)
(Even if I still think it could be valid for some people)

BTW paostby, I listened to your cover of Siberian Khatru. Congratulations!! I love it! :headset:

[PO]

Thanks for the listen, Fields. We play everything by hand, too. ;)

All music appreciation is subjective. There is no "reason" to like or dislike anything. Pick a song by anyone and you'll find people on both sides of the equation.

As for long songs, Yes is really the band that has made this one (of many) criteria for Prog fans. They simply are the ones that have done it the most, and arguably, the best. It is one of their staples. So, of course I appreciate their epics. So, anything else they do does get branded (to varying degrees) with the "It's not an epic" criteria. It's of their own doing, but I'm glad they did it! They are to be congratulated.

My first Yes concert was practically an all-epic show. Two albums and two songs. CTTE, Tales, Roundabout, and Starship Trooper. In that order. Excellent show. Hard to top that kind of display. I loved it.

Paul

[SonicDeath10]

It's weird that Gentle Giant pulls emotional resonance with their songs. They are even surprised by that.

[inside_out]

It's weird that Gentle Giant pulls emotional resonance with their songs. They are even surprised by that.

It's no wonder at all. People are starving to death from lack of emotion.

[SonicDeath10]

Well, I mean because of hte lack of classic simple beautiful melodies. it is my opinion that simpler melodies move people more, but Gentle Giants insane constructions move even me.

[BigGenerator]

I hate 90125.........don't you think that this album has ever been overrated? come on, there are only pop songs, pseudo disco (leave it).........is THIS the yes music we like?
I think that...90125 is UNDERRATED

Each time I listen to the 70's, I can't stand *yawning*,why ?
The 70's are horribly boring to listen to and the 70's is getting oldish,but when I listen to 90125, I never get bored because 90125 is musically perfect,not a single song is bad.Take a look at the previous albums:which album is perfect from the beginning to the end ?
For instance,starship trooper,close to the edge,time and a word,going for the one are good songs ,but they are not as good as songs such as hearts,changes,or it can happen;the songs of 90125 are more accomplished than the 70's,whereas the 70's songs look messy.
That is the reason why I think that the 70's are OVERRATED when comparing with the yeswest of the 80's and the 90's

[SonicDeath10]

this is going to be interesting.

[gus]

this is going to be interesting.

Agreed, LOL! But everyone has his or her own opinion. Like I think Tales is a very uneven album. Some great stuff, but also it has some garbage. Everyone thinks differently.

Anyway, I was just reading the liner notes of a Rhino reissue of a Grateful Dead album a few days ago. It noted that the Beach Boys with Pet Sounds and the Beatles Sgt. Pepper’s showed the world that pop could be art. But this view has really never been accepted by a lot of music lovers. I know from experience, not just with Yes fans, but many other artists’ fans that refuse to acknowledge this fact. If it’s pop it’s basic simple crap in their opinion. Which can be 100% wrong, imo. Yes West gets this treatment a lot, including 90125, and I find it to be erroneous.

[SonicDeath10]

I listen to tons of pop. To me, good pop has very catchy instantly recognizeable melodies but with great interesting arrangements, varied approaches to song construction, and all right lyrics.

[yessongs72]

I hate 90125.........don't you think that this album has ever been overrated? come on, there are only pop songs, pseudo disco (leave it).........is THIS the yes music we like?

I agree 110%! Pure crap and lets be thankfull Trevor left or finally got left so Yes could be Yes again. It would be great taking 1980-1994 out of Yes history.

[SonicDeath10]

oh grow up!

j/k ;)

[yessongs72]

oh grow up!

j/k ;)

lol, thank you!!

[cinderella]

If you would have seen the 90125 concert you would like it.
Trevor is quite the rock star....and it was an awesome show!



I saw them 3 times during the 90125 tour. Trevor was amazing!

90125 was, is and always will be one of my all time favorite albums.
It was a huge success all over the world and Owner Of A Lonely Heart was a number one single making Yes's comeback one of the most incredible ones in rock history.


I think that...90125 is UNDERRATED

when I listen to 90125, I never get bored because 90125 is musically perfect,not a single song is bad.

I like you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/Cinderella528/N99%20Smileys/Wendythumbsup.gif

[gingerbaker]

I saw them 3 times during the 90125 tour. Trevor was amazing!

90125 was, is and always will be one of my all time favorite albums.
It was a huge success all over the world and Owner Of A Lonely Heart was a number one single making Yes's comeback one of the most incredible ones in rock history.


I certainly agree with the cinder girl.90125 was great. The live show was fantastic. Remember Cinderella, the unique stage design that was kind of elevated from the front to the back.

[cinderella]

Yeah the stage was very cool!

[gingerbaker]

Yeah the stage was very cool!


When i saw the show, Alan White,after their final song and before the encores,came down from his perch and tripped and fell and rolled down almost 20 feet. Everybody thought he was seriously injured but he got up, dusted himself off, scraped some blood off, took a swig of beer from a fan and went up and did the 2 encores. Alan White has been my favorite ever since.

[moorglademovers]

This is gonna upset a few!
90125 is the reason i stopped listening to YES. I felt it an appalling parody of what YES were about with all the overblown production.
I pretty much prefer anything before, even Drama.
I was in the R.A.F. at the time it came out and it was one of those 'oh no...' moments for me

[Bugeyes]

Must ask this question of moorglademovers:
So, when's the last time you spun 90125?

Hearts has recently moved me to tears. No way could that have happened ten years ago!

P.S. Drama kind of put the brakes on for me listening to YES, but not any more. Tempus Fugit is one of my favorites, but Machine Messiah still scares the cr@p out of me somehow! :shrug:

[Mostly Harmless]

but Machine Messiah still scares the cr@p out of me somehow! :shrug:


lol Why?

[Bugeyes]

It's subliminal and THIS!

Hold me, machine Messiah
And show me
The strength of your singular eye.

There are a few moments in my life that no one can explain, even when they are there sharing it! (Don't ask! I know I can't explain it and it hurts to try.) :sneaky:

[Bugeyes]

And now the hair is standing up on the back of my neck again!


:D Cool! And fun for me.

[Mostly Harmless]

Lmao!!!!!!!

[Bugeyes]

Yep! One of the moments where ya had to be there! And it is funny, except...

:lmao:

Nevermind!

[MrPhil]

90125 is a great album, and musically UNDER-rated. The intro of Changes a simple pop-song?
Come on!

It is not Close to the Edge, but clearly related as to being intelligently performed, arranged and written great music, clearly in the true spirit of Yes (how can it not be whith Squire, White, Jon and Kaye?), just in a different format than 20 minute songs.
Easier on the surface, but equally clever underneath.
Maybe it's the lack of ability to dive a little deeper into music that produces the belief that 90125 is just another simple pop CD, or pseudo-disco, or whatever...

The immense value that 90125 means to the history of YES is totally underrated, as there would be no Yes today if not for that album, and the input from Rabin in combination with Squire and Jon.