Rhino Relayer Remaster

[Scheming Demon]

Yes, I've only just picked this one up today. Sue me, I've been broke for 2+ years! Anyway.....

THIS REMASTER SUX!!!

For me, the best parts of Gates were Moraz's little nuances sprinkled around ever-so-strategically. Sadly, these have been turned so far down that they're now inaudible. Also, Soundchaser sounds as if someone's dumped a heap of mud on top of it. All of the "brightness" (that translates to treble for all you pedants) has been removed from this remaster. Who should I be yelling at?

:1svader:


OTOH......

The CTTE remaster is a thing of beauty. Mostly!

[Stevehoweworshipu!]

Best Avatar ever (star wars thing)......oh wait, yeah that sucks lets kill rhino and sacrafice them to our leader while listening to 'We Have Heaven'

[smatt]

Hmm, interesting..... I've got a completely different impression of the Rhino Relayer. I love the fact the toned down that tinney sounding "brightness". It was far too shrill for my tastes. I've really got no problem hearing all the parts in Gates. In fact I think Moraz's flourishes thorugh-out were always way to out front. But that's just me.... You do seem to be one of the few I've ever heard complain about the way they re-mastered any of the Rhinos. But that's fine, musical tastes vary, we've all got our preferances as to how a song should be mixed.....

[Scheming Demon]

Smatt,

Is there a remaster of Relayer that maintains the album's original brightness or even improves upon it?

[Nes]

I don't know if it's just the fact that it's a record, but the mixing on the record is definately worse then the rhino one. I even have one of those nice turntables with the diamond heads and heavy balanced tone arms going through a really nice pioneer 5.1 (I know, it's definately unneeded for LPs, but who's complaining?) reciever, and I can hear great differences in the sound quality.

There's a weird humm noise in the background throughout the album on LP, which my friend Mike said that he hears it on his older remaster as well. And actually the fact that it's tinny and trebly always bothered me as well because IMO, the album really shouldn't be that bright. It's a 20 minute long song about the horrors of WAR. Why would you want it to be bright and trebley? I don't get your reasoning for that (perhaps it's cos you're used to the older mix)

Also, Sound Chaser and To Be Over really don't have to be that bright IMO. Still the humm noise which is quite annoying in the guitar solo in SC since there's many quiet spots in it..

Maybe that's why they toned down on the brightness.. to Get rid of the stupid humm...

Anyone know what that is?

[Scheming Demon]

And actually the fact that it's tinny and trebly always bothered me as well because IMO, the album really shouldn't be that bright. It's a 20 minute long song about the horrors of WAR. Why would you want it to be bright and trebley?

Honestly? I'm not sure why this is, but the instrument that I find my ears mostly following along with (in the pre-remastered mix, that is) is the keyboards. Dunno why, but it is. Obviously, then, this remaster bothers me as it de-emphasizes that instrument. The horrors of war come across effectively enough through the lyrics and the passion of instrumentation without having the whole composition "muddied" down in an effort to simulate "darkness". Actually, the mid-section, with the guitar and keyboards exchanging riffs (indicative of a battle) is all the more reason to keep these two instruments highlighted throughout.




(perhaps it's cos you're used to the older mix) You want to know what's funny? The only version of this I possessed prior to this remaster is a slightly EDITED version meant for distribution in Russia! It's a single CD with all of Tormato & Relayer squeezed onto it. I wasn't sure how they got that all to fit until, after listening to Rhino's, it donned on me that my version is 25 seconds SHORTER! LoL! Indeed, two bars are missing from mine plus the fade out at the end is rather abrupt. Nevertheless, the keyboards sound superior to my ears. :-)




Also, Sound Chaser and To Be Over really don't have to be that bright IMO.

Are you kidding me? The intro to Sound Chaser DEMANDS a bright, punchy quality. I was actually pretty shocked when I heard how "dumbed down" and emasculated it was. Really terrible. And then after the verse kicked in, the vocals were actually more echoey than the original (which was the problem with Sound Chaser's vocals to begin with!). In short, nine seconds after the vocals on Sound Chaser started up, I had to turn the thing off. I just couldn't handle a remastering job gone bad!

Hey, don't get me wrong. I have the remasters for YES, TAAW, TYA, Fragile, and CTTE and they sound MUCH better than the crap job they did on Relayer. I wonder, how do the Atlantic & Japanese remasters of Relayer compare?

[Nes]

Like all of the Japanese discs, the only problem is it has some weird volume fluctuating going on sometimes (or maybe it's just me to notice that)..

Also, I think that the softness of To Be Over and the Jazzyness of Sound Chaser tend to lend themselves quite well to the darker mix of the Rhino remaster.

OOh, also, the "echo" you hear are the harmonies which weren't really as sharp as they are on the new remaster. Indeed it is annoying on sound chaser, but I think it's beautiful on To Be Over

[sbmsu]

Hmmm... This thread has me very confused. My Rhino Relayer has infinitely better overall sound that my old CD. The improvement in clarity: better bass, crisper highs, audible keyboard, etc. is why I bought the remastered version. Does someone out there actually own a version (non-remaster) of Relayer on CD that sounds good????

[Steve St Thomas]

I definitely have to check this out. The last version of RELAYER on CD that I bought had to be the mid-90's, before the remaster, BEFORE the Rhino remaster. You know the other remaster I'm speaking of, Digital Oceanview or something or other. Well I don't even have that one!

Hmmm. Interesting topic. :)

You peeps don't mind if I do a comparison between that old CD, the Rhino (when purchased) and my US Vinyl version of it. It may take up a little space, but I'll just do SOUNDCHASER, since it's so short! :eyewobble

[Timmo]

I most definitely agree with sMatt on this one. I think the Rhino remaster is a vast improvement on both the original and the previous remaster.

Not as dramatic an improvement as the remastered Tales, but still quite an improvement.

[Scheming Demon]

I most definitely agree with sMatt on this one. I think the Rhino remaster is a vast improvement on both the original and the previous remaster.

Not as dramatic an improvement as the remastered Tales, but still quite an improvement.
Damn! When I was at the store debating which one to get, it came down to Tales vs. Relayer. You see, I wanted to save the other for a bit later on, when more $$$ fell my way. I guess I made the wrong choice! :-(

[Nes]

Well, the general opinion is that the Rhino version is better, but, heh, to each his own I assume.

Yeah, if you hadn't already, get the tales remaster. It's a drastic improvement over the older versions.

[Timmo]

Both the original "Relayer" and the last remaster prior to the Rhino were so bright I thought my ears were gonna bleed.

[Nes]

Because of the painful tinnyness of it? If that's what you're referring to, I definatly agree that it really does stress your ears to listen to it..

[Mike Watkins]

Because of the painful tinnyness of it? If that's what you're referring to, I definatly agree that it really does stress your ears to listen to it..You know I think that's why I never really enjoyed Relayer. Always seemed way to "harsh" to me. If I get too technical let me know.

(Tales muddy. CTE a perfect day.)

[Vic Anderson]

to be over its worth the price of tha album

[Timmo]

I loved "Relayer" back in the day, despite its harshness/brightness.

I like it better that it's been re-eq'ed to take the harshest "bite" out of it.

And you can now hear the individual instruments better.

[Steve St Thomas]

Are you guys listening to this album on headphones, or speakers???? I have to ask that question, because what I'm hearing on headphones (Sennheiser HD-600's) isn't showing me some of what you guys are saying, and this is on the original Vinyl version of RELAYER, based on Sound Chaser, heard VERY LOUDLY through this headset. I listened to the pre-Oceanview, pre-Rhino remastered CD, just for comparison with something somewhat ''modern''. I don't hear harshness or brightness, other than Howe's guitar solo in Sound Chaser, but it doesn't do what happens on earlier albums (particularly FRAGILE). At least on my system, Howe's guitar (and sometimes Wakeman's Mellotron) causes some clipping and distortion, but only on FRAGILE. With the frequencies and tone Howe has on the solo of Sound Chaser (which can be pretty harsh) this didn't happen, though the bass frequencies of the guitar did ''want'' to overload. This was smoothed out on the CD version, but what the CD version didn't have was the 'Depth' of the Vinyl version, especially on the more subtle sections of Sound Chaser. And I listened to Gates of Delirium just for the hell of it, because the album sounded so good. I don't hear Moraz overwhelming anything, I thought he was fairly mixed throughout both songs. Alan White's Tom-toms have a lot of ''punch'', and a lot of Howe's guitar sounds aren't too 'tweedy'' or ''plinky''. I didn't hear any background ''hum'', and I thought I was pretty good at spotting that sort of stuff. If I can hear it on McCartney's ''Take It Away'', or before the drums kick back in on ''Owner of a Lonely Heart's'' solo section, I figured I could hear it anywhere! I'll have to purchase the Rhino version of Relayer. I just figured I already had a copy of it, and my Vinyl version hasn't been beat yet . . . ?????

[Grover]

Is the Pioneer 5.1 system that the turntable is connected to the Elite line? Most receivers now are worse than they were 20 years ago, and so I would not trust the phono input of anything recent that is not known to be of excellent quality. Differnet perceptions between vinyl versions can easily be a result of using a different stylus. As for the hum, is the turntable grounded properly?

I can't comment on the various CD versions because I only have the Atlantic pre-remastered version.

[Albedo]

I purchased this a couple of days ago. I have to agree, the very grating harshness that I alway heard has been removed. On the other hand I don't hear the major improvement in sonic quality that I noticed immediately with the Tales remaster. I'm a little disappointed in that; but at least now I can stand to listen to it.

I'm not a music professional so I have to ask: is Relayer a heavily multi-tracked album? It always seems to me very dense and rather hard to discern individual instruments. I have always greatly preferred live versions of these tracks. The instrumental To Be Over on the Hawaii 2003 weed was a revelation, it almost made me cry.

[TTT]

I find the Rhino release vastly superior to the old Atlantic/Atco copy I purchased in 1986. Neither CD does sound quite like my lp but I don't expect them to. I wish there were "definitive" remasters so I can be done purchasing this and other albums. I mean, how many times can I be expected to buy a recording? I have gone through 2 LPs, one cassette, and now 2 CDs. Haven't they taken enough of my money??

[Albedo]

I like the LP sound best, it's the warmest. But I'm told that's a distortion?

[SonicDeath10]

I purchased this a couple of days ago. I have to agree, the very grating harshness that I alway heard has been removed. On the other hand I don't hear the major improvement in sonic quality that I noticed immediately with the Tales remaster. I'm a little disappointed in that; but at least now I can stand to listen to it.

I'm not a music professional so I have to ask: is Relayer a heavily multi-tracked album? It always seems to me very dense and rather hard to discern individual instruments. I have always greatly preferred live versions of these tracks. The instrumental To Be Over on the Hawaii 2003 weed was a revelation, it almost made me cry.
I think it is over dubbed a lot, but I could be wrong.
The Rhino remaster of Tales is A Revelation. The muddiness that plagued so much of that album is gone and all that's left is :Rcking:

[Steve St Thomas]

There was one thing I noticed almost immediately. I just purchased the Rhino remaster the other day. In the beginning drum parts of Sound Chaser, the Rhino version kind of secludes the Toms to certain portions of the stereo image. The vinyl and previous CD releases had a more ''Across the Stereo spectrum'' sound to the major drum part of this song. It seemed like Rhino kept the lower toms extreme right and left, and the hi to mid toms almost dead centre. On a Surround Sound system this might sound a bit better, but I felt listening through headphones, the Vinyl version and previous CD's ''got'' what and how that drum part was recorded and where it was meant to go across stereo.

[BrianD]

The Relayer LP has very ordinary production - a distorted treble, very tinny - sounds like it was recorded in a shed. The remaster has improved on that considerably but it is still less than perfect production.

[Steve St Thomas]

The Relayer LP has very ordinary production - a distorted treble, very tinny - sounds like it was recorded in a shed. The remaster has improved on that considerably but it is still less than perfect production.

You know, I blasted that LP in my ears listening for what you guys were talking about, and the only treble I could hear that was annoying, was in Steve Howe's various guitar settings. Honest. He hits (sorry) or it was recorded that way, some very obnoxious sounding notes, though beautifully played notes. His playing on that album is pretty fascinating, but his guitar sound is what drives my ears to madness. The bass, keyboards and drums all sounded heavy in the right parts and with an extreme fullness to them. Especially the various effects put on them , as in Gates where the drums and bass get a very heavy wash of reverb put to them before the song cascades down into SOON territory. I think the production and engineering on Relayer is far better than Going For The One personally. One sounds better in the Howe department, but there is so much added ''fixture'' throughout GFTO, that it gets hard to discern what's more important to the song. Multiple vocals? Percussion? Church Organs? I'm never quite sure with GFTO. With Relayer I've always been able to separate and differentiate each instrument clearly. Even Howe's guitar tones.

[PO]

I really like the contrast of Relayer. Steve went from smooth butter (CTTE, Tales) to nasty, snarling Fender Telecaster. I love the all of the edge. You shoulda heard the concert. It pierced like nothing else. No Gibsons were used at all. ALL of the keyboards (except a Hammond) were changed, too.

[Albedo]

You know, I blasted that LP in my ears listening for what you guys were talking about, and the only treble I could hear that was annoying, was in Steve Howe's various guitar settings. Honest. He hits (sorry) or it was recorded that way, some very obnoxious sounding notes, though beautifully played notes. His playing on that album is pretty fascinating, but his guitar sound is what drives my ears to madness. The bass, keyboards and drums all sounded heavy in the right parts and with an extreme fullness to them. Especially the various effects put on them , as in Gates where the drums and bass get a very heavy wash of reverb put to them before the song cascades down into SOON territory. I think the production and engineering on Relayer is far better than Going For The One personally. One sounds better in the Howe department, but there is so much added ''fixture'' throughout GFTO, that it gets hard to discern what's more important to the song. Multiple vocals? Percussion? Church Organs? I'm never quite sure with GFTO. With Relayer I've always been able to separate and differentiate each instrument clearly. Even Howe's guitar tones.

You know Steve, I don't remember this problem with the vinyl version, but it's been years ago. I have a previous issue CD that is the source of this problem. I went back and listened to it again, and it is most often associated with Steve's guitar but I also hear it in some of the keyboard parts as well. It sounds like some high frequency distortion, like something transferred at a low bit rate. Maybe there were some bad pressings of this album?

[Steve St Thomas]

You know Steve, I don't remember this problem with the vinyl version, but it's been years ago. I have a previous issue CD that is the source of this problem. I went back and listened to it again, and it is most often associated with Steve's guitar but I also hear it in some of the keyboard parts as well. It sounds like some high frequency distortion, like something transferred at a low bit rate. Maybe there were some bad pressings of this album?

Very very possible. The Relayer on Vinyl I own is definitely not from 1974. I'd have to say it was a little bit later, and it was American issued.

[sunburstbasser]

With CDs, early ones in the 80s or so often had really poor sound quality because they didn't know how to get the low end to the disc effectively at times, and I think this problem continued to a small degree with less popular records for many years. This may be part of the reason that the CDs sound so tinny.

Or not:)

[Safe]

The Relayer LP has very ordinary production - a distorted treble, very tinny - sounds like it was recorded in a shed........

Which it pretty much was - Chris Squire's garage studio, if I remember correctly.
I love the original LP mix of Relayer. I thought the point was that, barring the few mellower passages, it was meant to be harsh?
I still remember how much my endless playing of it p*ssed my mum off - priceless, when you're fourteen.........

If Moraz has been pushed to the background in the remaster, then that's a shame. I've always thought that his contributions made that album, which is still my favourite.