View Full Version : The Ladder's second coming
Neverthirst
03-23-2002, 10:50 PM
When I first heard The Ladder, I wasn't particularly impressed. To quite honest, I was quite disappointed. I don't know what I was expecting, but this was far from it.
But I've been giving THE LADDER a lot of play lately, and have completely changed my mind! Some of it really jams. Its awesome! I love it now. I would argue that a lot of the energy of this music is Rabin's Ghost.
Based on what i saw at the OYE tour, my guess is that Chris is the driving force behind keeping that energy alive. He stole the show.
Then I found that Quantum had a similar experience re-discovering The Ladder. I'd love to know if anyone else was blown away by its energy.
Neverthirst
03-23-2002, 10:56 PM
PeterCologne had some really great insight on the album in another thread, and gave me permission to copy it to here to help start the thread. Thanks Peter! Enjoy!
Originally posted by PeterCologne
I'm with you too, Neverthirst, about The Ladder. What I like the most ist the great variety of styles in this album. There is first of all The River with the fine-tuned harmony-vocals, like some Cotton-workers on a field, or like a kind of gospel. This is pop music at its best. Then there is some rock 'n' roll in Face to Face, reggae in The Messenger, even some blues in Finally, some calypso in Lightning Strikes and If Only You Knew is a fine ballad, but with depth in the arrangement and far away from that flat, slick muzak bands like Chicago do. And it all has the character and the fine art and character - for instance tricky and soulful production, vertiginous harmony-vovals - of Yes-music.
And there are New Language and Homeworld as more or less classic, but fresh Yes-tunes. Although, Homeworld has some of the most poorly ten seconds of Yes in it: from 6.13 to 6.31, a latter-day-Wakeman-like fanfare on the keyboards, that sounds as cheap as Europes Final Countdown (I think, one of the dumbest songs ever.)
And yeah, Chris Squire seems to be the main Yes-man. He takes care of the quality. And as long as he is in Yes - and if he is not, it is not Yes - this band will never sell out.
Greetings Peter
Insane Teacher
03-23-2002, 10:58 PM
I first discovered Yes in 1971. I lost them after 90125. The Ladder caused me to rediscover Yes. I love The Ladder. It is a unique album. I really enjoyed the musical influences from other musical styles and world cultures.
Hi guys,
Yeah... I loved The Ladder from the time I got it...
The cover is way cool too!
The music is Yes at their best in my opinion... not trying to out do each other, but letting the music do what it wants to do.
As i said in another post, the only song on the Album that disagrees with me is Finally..... but other than that all is fine... I even like "If only You Knew", which my wife also likes... we would have had that played at our wedding if I had a copy of it then...
whatever, it's a good Yes album, rated higher on my personal scale than Open your Eyes, and even Tormato!
Here's hoping that Yes produce another Album just as good, if not better (am I asking too much) in the near future....
who knows...
Originally posted by raz
Here's hoping that Yes produce another Album just as good, if not better (am I asking too much) in the near future....
who knows...
What about Magnification? Do you think The Ladder is better?
Hmmmm hard to say there....
I really like them both, but for me it's like comparing Drama with say, 90125.... again I love both those albums, but they are really different.
I really love Mag... it's a corker.... a superb album....
No, it's not that Mag is a Much better YES album, but The Ladder is a great Yes album.... they are just different, that's all.
If I had to choose....
hmmmmm hard choice.... The Ladder wins on the cover hands down, but the music..... well, that would have to be Mag.... but only just, mind.
Originally posted by raz
The Ladder wins on the cover hands down, but the music..... well, that would have to be Mag....
I gotta go with you on that one, raz.
Neverthirst
03-23-2002, 11:36 PM
I really like what Raz said about it being hard to compare. They are miles away from each other in terms of style. And I like Mag. but I don't think I'd choose it over The Ladder.
There are certain elements of the album that are just so bold and creative. And then there's that driving power and energy. Its amazing!
Originally posted by Neverthirst
I really like what Raz said about it being hard to compare. They are miles away from each other in terms of style. And I like Mag. but I don't think I'd choose it over The Ladder.
There are certain elements of the album that are just so bold and creative. And then there's that driving power and energy. Its amazing!
They are very different, I agree. The choice is an easy one for me though. Looks like for you too Neverthirst.
It occurred to me in the midst of recent repeated listenings (The Ladder and Magnification) that what I liked/disliked about both albums is the sense that neither of them are finished.
There are bits that are terrific and then bits that sound contrived. "Homeworld" is a good example: most of it is really interesting, then comes the chorus, which is uninspiring. (I felt the same way about "Mind Drive," which to me is better than anything on either The Ladder or Magnification - I see it as a 70s Yes epic wanting to happen that ran out of steam)
It is as though time or money pressures forced both of these albums to sign off before enough creative thumb-wrestling had been done to ensure the refinement of the songs.
It was there that I felt Wakeman's loss.
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by yessiree
They are very different, I agree. The choice is an easy one for me though. Looks like for you too Neverthirst.
Yeah, I guess it is. I certain don't dislke Mag.
You know, I threw A lot of props to Chris for being the Driving force behind the power and energy, but some of that credit goes to Jon too.
Jon was incredible on The Ladder. It was obvious he was really enjoying himself. Lots of power and passion in his vocals.
Originally posted by Neverthirst
Jon was incredible on The Ladder. It was obvious he was really enjoying himself. Lots of power and passion in his vocals.
Yes, he's the Man!
This is a toughy for me... whatever yes album i'm listening to at the time is the best thing since sliced bread.... ok, they have released some pretty ordinary stuff, but in and amongst the ordinary are some gems of delight.. which bring the sunshine into the gloomiest of days... no, i love The Ladder... it does have some powerful melodies and great songs.... but if i had to choose either
the Ladder or Magnification.... it would have to be the latter....
Mag is, for me at least, just if not more, dynamic than The Ladder, and it had allot more depth in all the tracks... even "soft as a dove"...... On the Ladder Homeworld is where Yes were really trying to "be Yes", but on Mag... they nailed it on every track!
OK, I know that you have your op and I have mine... so be it....
If i were to rate them out of 10... both would get the same marks tho....
raz, you're too funny! Where's that fence indeed!
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by raz
This is a toughy for me... whatever yes album i'm listening to at the time is the best thing since sliced bread
I'm in touch with sentiment. I like that.
Back The Ladder ...
Anybody else really turned on by that chord progression in THE MESSENGER? It gives me chills. Its exhilerating.
Or the pounding beat of LIGHTENING STRIKES....
What about this albums creativity! The beginning to HOMEWORLD, and that cool intro to LIGHTENING STRIKES.
This album is very innovative!
THE LADDER rocks! What turns you on?!?
nightliner
03-24-2002, 04:50 AM
While I like both albums, I think Magnification is far superior. Although it is a dificult and unfair comparison. I don't hear that much in common. They are two completely different styles. Like sommeone else said, I think the Ladder harkens back to the days of Trevor. It is more of a "rock" album, while Magnification leans toward the classical. I would imagine that's due to the orchestra. Duh.
RobAdams
03-24-2002, 05:04 AM
I didn't get much Yes pleasure from OPEN YOUR EYES at all, so I bought THE LADDER with my fingers crossed. I'm pleased to say that THE LADDER put a smile upon my face. I think it succeeds in showing that they still had it in them. For me, NINE VOICES is the one track I don't really enjoy. Don't ask me why...I'm not sure.
Well like you Nightliner, I too was not too keen on OYE.... But i have to say that that album did grow on me after a while... I like Love Shine off it the best.....,
but it's not as good at The Ladder or Mag...
Originally posted by i-and-i
For me, NINE VOICES is the one track I don't really enjoy. Don't ask me why...I'm not sure.
That's interesting i-and-i. Nine Voices is one of the songs I like best. It's If Only You Knew that drives me to distraction. "Pick the flowers from your floor..." I'm wondering, what are they doing on the floor in the first place?!
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 02:40 PM
One of the qualities of THE LADDER that like best is its cohesion. The songs transition so well from one to the next.
PeterCologne
03-24-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by yessiree
I'm wondering, what are they doing on the floor in the first place?!
If only we knew, yessiree
I will think very hard about it, there must be an answer.
Peter
PeterCologne
03-24-2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Neverthirst
One of the qualities of THE LADDER that like best is its cohesion. The songs transition so well from one to the next.
You are right, Neverthirst, I always think about The Ladder as the Sgt.Pepper-album of Yes. Much Styles/images composed to one fascinating puzzle.
Originally posted by PeterCologne
If only we knew, yessiree
I will think very hard about it, there must be an answer.
Peter
You are one funny guy, Peter! I'm looking forward to your answer about why those flowers are on the floor!
PeterCologne
03-24-2002, 07:35 PM
Hi yessiree,
just a try: Maybe Jane thinks, that life is a bed of roses, but Jon doesn't - so he picks them up, to have more fun. Isn't he trying to save the world since 33 years?
Greetings Peter
What an interesting idea, Peter. And since Jon has been through such hardship with Yes--not getting the props they deserve and such, he has come to the full realization of life not being a bed of roses. So then, when Janeeeee puts them on the floor in that fashion (as she has not suffered as he has and has the most wonderful life with Jon), he feels compelled to pick them up.
How's that?
I think we both went over the edge, Peter! hahaha!
PeterCologne
03-24-2002, 07:54 PM
What you say, is absolutely, what I was thinking of - plus this interesting thought of having not the success, Jon and the others deserve. So, we agree again. Could we agree too in, that we were Close to the edge?
Have a nice evening. I have to go to the Dreamworld soon.
Peter
Originally posted by PeterCologne
Could we agree too in, that we were Close to the edge?
I have to go to the Dreamworld. Peter
So you think we were only close--not over, huh? Well, if you buy it, then so do I!
And lucky you getting to go to Dreamworld while I sit here and slave away for the next 4 hours before I get to go there too!
Fun visiting with you Peter!
PeterCologne
03-24-2002, 08:13 PM
I wish those four hours as soon To be over for you as you wish (what do you have to suffer in this time?) Yeah, I think, we were not over the edge. Glad, that you buy it.
Was fun for me too
Peter
Originally posted by PeterCologne
(what do you have to suffer in this time?)
I'm here at work waiting on people to call me and tell me how they are going to kill themselves or somebody else. Really. So, you can probably see why I'm waiting for the 4 hours to pass to go to Dreamworld.
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by i-and-i
I didn't get much Yes pleasure from OPEN YOUR EYES at all, so I bought THE LADDER with my fingers crossed. I'm pleased to say that THE LADDER put a smile upon my face. I think it succeeds in showing that they still had it in them. ...
There's a quote from Howe in the program from OYE, that kinda speaks to that. Here's a clip ...
"We're just now finding a new kind of Yes that hasn't existed before."
"I wouldn't say that this is the Yes that just made OPEN YOUR EYES. I think what we're discovering on stage is that there is another Yes that is being born, which is far more energetic and lively and full of the Yes fantasy dream."
And The Ladder sure proves it.
I agree with that Neverthirst. Though The Ladder is not my favorite, I think it showed a shift in the direction in their music that I believe to be an improvment and I was very happy for that.
I don't mean to be contrary, but I think a distinction should be made.
OYE, The Ladder, and Magnification each contained music that was new for Yes. But none of it was new music; the innovations on those albums were strictly instances of Yes applying itself to forms already well-explored.
This is not the same as what we see in "classic" Yes ... wherein Yes extended existing forms but in doing so created music unlike anything else.
I'm for appreciating The Ladder and Magnification, and even a moment or two on OYE - but when Steve Howe talks about "a Yes that has never existed before," he's not talking about changes that amounted to a step up ...
Sorry to be disagreeable on this point,
Q
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 08:43 PM
I'm not so sure you were disgreeable.
but when Steve Howe talks about "a Yes that has never existed before," he's not talking about changes that amounted to a step up ...
I would argue that The Ladder is a step up from OYE. But this,"Yes that has never existed before" certainly does not transcend the Yes that preceded it.
What do think he means?
I think it means new life, a new direction, something different. And given where they had been, that was welcome, for me.
There is no question but that The Ladder and Magnification were both superior to OYE, which is arguably not a "real" Yes album ... OYE had little collaboration, The Ladder had much more. Mag falls somewhere in between because there were fewer creative loci in the band - but none of this compares with the creative process from the "classic" period, in which the band's working style was something else altogether.
I don't see a "new Yes that has never existed before" in these recent years. I see the nostalgic "Keys" band in a different wardrobe.
Neverthirst
03-24-2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Quantum
I don't see a "new Yes that has never existed before" in these recent years. I see the nostalgic "Keys" band in a different wardrobe.
That's an interesting take. I hadn't heard anything like that one.
I happening to be listing to THE LADDER now. Jon's got bit that rock and roll growl in Finally, doesn't he.
Originally posted by Neverthirst
I happening to be listing to THE LADDER now. Jon's got bit that rock and roll growl in Finally, doesn't he.
Yes he does.
Jons "Growl" in Finally is, why I think that I don't like that song... I don't think that he can pull it off! It was the same for me in the ABWH song Order of the Universe, where he tried to get a really rocking growl.... it doent work for me i'm afraid.... Jon's voice is unique, but I don't think that he can stretch to that kind of singing....
comments?
Well, I'll tell you, raz, that sound was VERY grating to me for the longest time. Then one day it came to me that as Jon is an artist who reaches to the depths, there has to be be times when he does feel like that and he should be allowed to express himself as authentically as he feels he must. So, when that thought came to me, I accepted the sound and it doesn't bother me anymore.
Does that make sense?
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 12:09 AM
I like it. A lot. I think it works for the song, and its a really refreshing departure from Jon's usual style. Nice change of pace.
However
I can certainly see, Raz why you don't like it. It ain't the Jon we're used to. In any other song in any other way, I'd probably hate it.
yessiree, I'm shocked!
Originally posted by Neverthirst
yessiree, I'm shocked!
Oh, do tell, Neverthirst! Details, I need details!
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by yessiree
Well, I'll tell you, raz, that sound was VERY grating to me for the longest time.
I never thot I'd see the day ... you didn't like Jon's voice.
hahahaha
i'm only teasing
you see, i think that what you guys have said is pretty much bullseye and on the ball, & I agree that Jon has the freedom to try to pull something like this off... and yes I understand that it is enlightening to hear him try something different.... BUT for me it just didnot click, that's all.
That's not to say that I hate it.... it's just that it doesn't agree with me that's all.
Oh, and here's a quite query.... do any of you know which is the longest Yes album? I think that Drama is the shortest... but i could be wrong...
Help me out here folks...
RobAdams
03-25-2002, 12:56 AM
The only time I really think Jon's voice sounds awful throughout the Yes collection is in three songs. :
1) GOING FOR THE ONE - The live version on YESSHOWS where his voice sounds beat. Overall, not bad, but I've always wondered why that version was selected for the album.
2) I'M DOWN - The live 1976 track from YESYEARS - Jon is not meant for this sort of material. He sounds silly trying to rock & roll in such a conventional song.
3) EVERY LITTLE THING - His voice is in good form, but I don't like the way he sings this one. Jon's vocals ruin this track, which otherwise kicks butt. Especially the wonderful intro, and Peter Banks' guitar solo.
Originally posted by Neverthirst
I never that I'd see the day ... you didn't like Jon's voice.
You and me too, Neverthirst! That's why it was so disconcerting! But I got over it. And raz, I understand where you are coming from too. I'm just glad that I was able to get over it.
RobAdams
03-25-2002, 01:00 AM
YESSONGS is the longest live album
YESYEARS is the longest compilation
TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS is the longest studio album
The longest compact discs are those in YESYEARS, each over 70 mins.
9012LIVE is the shortest YES album of all, around thirty mins.
PeterCologne
03-25-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by yessiree
... So, you can probably see why I'm waiting for the 4 hours to pass to go to Dreamworld.
I see, yesiree. All my Respect to you. I send you right now some good wishes for this working day and/or the next.
Peter
Peter, you are just the sweetest!
PeterCologne
03-25-2002, 06:28 PM
...yessiree, must say, what you write, is very nice too.
And if you are down sometimes, just bring to your mind, that you are doing something like the love-work to human beeings, that Jon Anderson does.
Peter
Originally posted by PeterCologne
[BAnd if you are down sometimes, just bring to your mind, that you are doing something like the love-work to human beeings, that Jon Anderson does. Peter [/B]
I ask you fellow Yes Fans, is there a sweeter guy on the planet than Peter?
Jackaranda
03-25-2002, 09:59 PM
Yes. Me.
The Ladder never should have had a first coming.
When I heard If Only You Knew, I could have sworn it was a Peter Cetera song.
I'd better shut up now--or go to the flame pit. Jack....
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 10:04 PM
Peter Cetera ... I can see that .... funny!
You're safe Jack. You've got me curious ... please continue.
Jackaranda
03-25-2002, 10:15 PM
It's difficult to explain, but it just doesn't work. The song I mentioned above left me horrified that this was YES!!Even Homeworld, which I thought the best, is old now. It Will Be a Good Day, The Messenger, Lightning Strikes, and others, just really mediocre by anyone's standards,but this was Yes!!
Just a lifeless effort. No energy or continuity.
"If Only You Knew" has a Bread riff in it. A BREAD RIFF.
I like the album ... I like a lot of the tunes ... but A BREAD RIFF???
Sorry, Neverthirst. I'm on your side on this one, I really am ...
a bread riff ...
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by jack gowen
Just a lifeless effort. No energy or continuity.
Exact opposite of my impression. I think it excels in both areas.
However, I felt the same as you about it for a very long time.
Q - There's a song on Big Gen that makes me think of Tequila - the song not the beverage.
I Listened to The Ladder again last night... I still like it.... i was doing the crossword in the paper and found myself listening to the music more than musing over the more cryptic clues...
oh and i did not finish the crossword - i never do!
as for the Tequila song on BGen.... hmmmm
i know the one you mean, but have lost it's name....
could it be Final Eyes?
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 11:08 PM
Small segments of the guitar part in I"M RUNNING
right you are there sir....
i can hear it now, in my head....
Baybe Trevor was drinking Tequila when he wrote the song?
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 11:17 PM
Its a great song once you get past that occasional urge shout "Tequila!"
yeah, it's not bad at all.
i like the aforementioned final eyes on that album tho... don't know why, just do. i wish it were longer, with a more improvised middle section. could have been a classic of it's time.
Neverthirst
03-25-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by raz
i wish it were longer, with a more improvised middle section. could have been a classic of it's time. [/B]
Agreed. FINAL EYES was incredible and could have been a classic.
actually, i think that that has been a problem with quite a few of Yes' songs recently.... their length. I think that they are scared (maybe that's too strong a word), to push the boat out, and have cut them short. However, I for one, would really love it if they fullfill their potential and "Go for it" bad style... I've read numerous articles where Jon sees this 'Magnus Opus' kinda piece in his head, and well, I want to hear it!
No seriously, it's been a while since they've recorded a 20 min + epic, and I think that they've got a big one coming up soon....
comments folks?
Neverthirst
03-26-2002, 01:01 AM
An new epic would be nice. I would think one is on the way ...
Mr Neverthirst
I surley hope that you are correct in your assesment....
and going on past form, i think that you are.
lets see if they come up with the good, eh!
Raz
ycantibu
03-27-2002, 06:52 AM
I love "Final Eyes". A lovely song. Having said that, I have a demo or studio outtake or whatever on my computer of "Final Eyes" with different lyrics and Trevor Rabin on lead vocals and I must say, I really like it much better. And the "final eyes" bit actually makes sense. Anyone else heard this?
Originally posted by Neverthirst
Agreed. FINAL EYES was incredible and could have been a classic.
Neverthirst
03-27-2002, 06:20 PM
I have heard a similar version of LIFT ME UP, with Trevor singing. The Union version is actually this version with Jon's vocals dubbed in. So I guess you could say I heard the original.
i wonder if any of these different versions will be released officially in the future? it would be nice for them to be availiable to us folks out here on the western limb....
ycantibu
03-30-2002, 03:10 PM
I have some of the Trevor Rabin, Cinema and Big Generator demos on my computer...very interesting. I'd kill to get my hands on the rest. I need to marry a Yes junkie.
Neverthirst
04-22-2002, 05:53 AM
So I gave this album a break for a few weeks, just to see if I'd still be so enthused...
And it rocks!!!
I'm sure they'll do at least one track from this album on the tour ... I wonder what it'll be ...
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