Phil Collins: the ultimate sell out travesty

[Valetudo]

I am shocked and apalled everytime I hear phil Collins singing commercial "elevator musak" drivel. O.K. so he made alot of CASH!

"one more night, just give me one more night" :valintine RALPH---------*

I still listen to "Suppers Ready" (the last third of the song)

[Ike]

Honestly I don't think Phil sold out. I actually think that prog wasn't exactly his thing all along but that pop music really what he liked to make. Judging from interviews I've read from the PG era, some of Phil's comments made it sound like he was just doing his job as the drummer (albeit a great job) and that the music they were making wasn't his cup of tea.

Mike and Tony are probably more of a sellout than Phil. "All I need is a miracle" is pop-perfect, and although I really haven't listened to Tony's solo stuff, his contributions to latter-era Genesis were very popish. The thing is, those two were the cornerstones (although held in place by Steve and Peter) of the prog sound of early Genesis. This is further evidenced by some snippets of the last album, CAS, when I think a few glimpses of prog can be found.

anyhow, again, my opinion is that Phil always was more pop than prog. After all, The Beatles was one of his biggest inlfluences, and they were pop way before they moved into any other type of genre. However, it is sad to see the quality of his work go down the tubes after his first 4 albums were so awesome.

[umgekehrt]

I agree wholeheartedly that Phil produced great pop music in the 80's, but then the quality of his albums seemed to drop very fast after "But Seriously".

[DREAMER]

Yes Phil Collins sold out bigtime. He was one the ultimate prog heroes of the 70's , great singer and his drumming is/was one of the best in rock. It's hard to reconcile the two Phil's - one from the 70's and the one from the 80's and beyond. I tend to think of him as two separate people !

[heartofthesunrise]

I think he went bad in the 90's, after he left Genesis for good. He probably thought "Thank God I don't have to write for those damn prog fans anymore!" and condemned himself to the slow-beat, three-minute stuff that he's known for now. And personally, if you start writing for Disney, you've got one foot in Hell already (sorry, Sting).

I love South Park's take on him in the episode where he tries to tell Skylar that Timmy was taking over the Lords of the Underworld and that he should leave and turn solo, like he did. "I left those bastards in Genesis and look what it got me!" (or something to that effect) he says while waving his Oscar around wherever he goes. Priceless.

But he did put out some good stuff, I can't argue that. No Jacket Required was probably that last PC album I bought.

[ycantibu]

He's always been one of those performers I cannot tolerate, even when in Genesis. There's just *something* about him that rubs me the wrong way. And I don't like his music either. :D

[umgekehrt]

His drumming in Brand X was excellent though

[bdyescall]

I think he went bad in the 90's, after he left Genesis for good. He probably thought "Thank God I don't have to write for those damn prog fans anymore!" and condemned himself to the slow-beat, three-minute stuff that he's known for now. And personally, if you start writing for Disney, you've got one foot in Hell already (sorry, Sting).

I love South Park's take on him in the episode where he tries to tell Skylar that Timmy was taking over the Lords of the Underworld and that he should leave and turn solo, like he did. "I left those bastards in Genesis and look what it got me!" (or something to that effect) he says while waving his Oscar around wherever he goes. Priceless.

But he did put out some good stuff, I can't argue that. No Jacket Required was probably that last PC album I bought.
I have to echo my sentiments there HOTS!
His first solo was about his woman leaving.--I think 1980 or such.--24 years ago!--Get over it Phild-UP!--I've seen the movie!-- It's called "Get over it and move on"!!

Phil, IMO, ruined Genesis with his crybaby crap.-Mr. Rutherford should have bonked this punk on the head a long time ago!--
Phil-UP said he retired a year or 2 back due to going deaf.
I see he is touring now again!!

My point being.--Yes he definately sold out!

Hi Evette too!--A pleasure meeting you in Chicago 2003!!--"Those are the days that I will always think about!!"

[rahtreelimbs]

I love Phil as a drummer. TRhe band as a whole went the pop route. In the beginning their "pop" music wasn't so bad. But towards the end it got real nauseating.

[Max Webster]

For starters, I'm a huge Genesis fan and I basically like everything they did from beginning to end. Admittedly, the last couple of albums they did with Phil are, IMO, the band's lowest points.
As for Phil's solo stuff, I share Umgekert's view that his first four solo albums are actually not bad. After that Phil stopped drumming and seemed more preoccupied with establishing himself as a balladeer.

If people don't like Phil, they don't like his voice - that's their choice.
But clearly, Phil has devolved into an extremely unfashionable artist.
Today you could potentially mention Phil Collins, Cliff Richard and the Spice Girls in the same breath.

And I often suspect that Phil's current unfashionability is an influence when people speak disparagingly of Phil and anything he ever had a lead hand in, including post-Gabriel's Genesis.

[ODV2]

I think Phil's popularity (because of his solo albums) encouraged the band to transform into a pop group. When Tony and Mike saw the immense sales that Phil's solo albums were getting they figured they should change Genesis' sound so that it was accessible to the fans of Phil. So in my opinion Genesis did sell out at this time. Instead of being true to their prog fans they were blinded by the success of Phil's mediocre solo releases and changed their sound so much that the last couple of Genesis albums with Phil are almost solo albums.

[Timmo]

Back in the early 80s, my g/f at the time said of Phil Collins, "He's the English Lionel Ritchie. He must be stopped."

TIM
Venice, CA

[Gabriel]

Its true that Genesis' turned to alot of pop fluff for their albums after Duke but the thankfully, they did still retain some hints of prog in their records; On Abacab you have the title track and Dodo/Lurker on Genesis [self titled album] you have Home by the Sea, on Invisible Touch you have Domino and The Brazilian and on We Cant Dance you have Driving the Last Spike, Dreaming While You Sleep and the magnificent Fading Lights so theres something for both sets of fans IMO.

Of course, i'm a fan of Phils stuff so I'm not really complaining ;)

[Rogo]

Like with yes I got into Tormato first, which I still find is my favourite yes album, with Genesis I first bought ...and then there were three, and THAT's now my favourite Genesis album, Phil and all. I'd never heard of Peter Gabriel until I bumped into him on my way through the G back catalogue. Like, who's this??

I only started having suspicions about PC when he turned up a couple of terribly boring pop songs on Duke. I can't find anything good to say about the song Misunderstanding. And what was the point of those synth-percussion intros? I mean, he could play, why didn't he?

I only have the first solo album, and it's likeable but boring. After I heard Sussudio, I consodered him a lost cause and spent my money on other things. When I heard the opening song from Tarzan, I was pleasantly surprised, because it worked so well with the drama of the opening sequence of the film, in a way that reminded me of Genesis. It certainly was better and more interesting than usual Disney fare, boring have been their songs of late.

[Valetudo]

Have you listened to Mike Rutherford's "Small Creep's Day "?

It's kind of a lost Genesis album

There's a song called "out into the light"

I still listen to what Steve Hackett is up to. Spectral Mornings and The Bay of kings come to mind.

Oh , and I'm still shy about telling people that I listen to Genesis due to the Phil assocaition thing. The Kids cry: "CHEESE ROCKER"

[mattquarterstein]

I like Phil Collins, whatever he's doing.

[ODV2]

Like with yes I got into Tormato first, which I still find is my favourite yes album, with Genesis I first bought ...and then there were three, and THAT's now my favourite Genesis album, Phil and all. I'd never heard of Peter Gabriel until I bumped into him on my way through the G back catalogue. Like, who's this??
.

Rogo points out something important here. If it wasn't for the success that Genesis had during their more popular years, they would probably have a fraction of the fans they have today. The fans who were fans of Invisible Touch when it came out probably traced Genesis back to their truly great efforts like Selling England by the Pound and formed an appreciation for prog rock. The same is true with YeS when considering their Rabin-era releases (which I think are far superior to the late Genesis releases). I'm sure a lot of the fans on this website were first introduced to YeS because of 90125, but have developed an appreciation for earlier greats like Relayer and CTTE.

[Rogo]

You nail it ODV2, i appreciate the earlier albums more now, but Tormato and ...ATTWT still carry the sweetness of the first encounter.

[sgtschultz]

A subject too close to home so I have to post....

There seems to be a perception that Phil was not into prog - WRONG. Brand X was prog mixed with lite fusion. It is Phil's best work on the drums at any point in his lifetime.

We need to remember a few important facts that will allow us to put all this in the proper context.

1. Every member of the band (post-Gabriel) has stated that they all want to do their own solo work to keep themselves refreshed. They've said this continuously since 1976.

2. Every member of the band has always said they will write what they like, not what others may want to hear.

3. Every member did produce a significant amount of solo material. Whoever mentioned Smallcreep's Day had it right on - very prog. Tony's early albums The Fugitive and A Curious Feeling were also very prog.

4. In each of the member's solo work, you can clearly hear their individual contribution to Genesis.

5. Phil is the one member of the band who can play almost every instrument on the planet, and sing. He is uniquely talented in this regard.

6. Genesis' music is the combination of these individual talents which is greater than the sum of the individuals. Tony and Mike and Phil referred to it as the 'magic'.

7. No single member of the band took the band in any particular direction, especially Phil. That is not how they wrote and have stated so many times.


Not only was Phil into prog, he had the talent to, and openly stated that he wanted to explore jazz, bigband and pop in addition to Genesis. Any member of the band was free to do this, but Phil was uniquely able to do it all.

This doesn't mean that I love Phil. I just respect his talent and ability. He might be the only musician in modern history who can literally 'do it all', and do it well.

Perspective:
If you don't like pop, then of course you won't like Phil's pop. Personally, I don't.
If you don't like bigband, then you won't like Phil's bigband work. Personally, I don't.
I do like prog and jazz fusion, so I like his Brand X work a lot.

Get the point?

So who really is the sell out - Phil? How about Peter or Steve? The band had to change significantly every time someone left.

What we need to remember is that Genesis will only be Genesis when they are all playing together, just like the reunion show in Oct 1982 to support Peter's WOMAD efforts. We may get this in our lifetime, we may not.

So the answer is: no one sold out. The band members did exactly what they agreed to do and said they would do year after year after year.

[sgtschultz]

I still listen to "Suppers Ready" (the last third of the song)

Me too. Apocalypse in 9/8 is one of the best pieces of music ever written by mankind.

[Orbert]

...snip...

So the answer is: no one sold out. The band members did exactly what they agreed to do and said they would do year after year after year.
I spent many years "mad at Phil" for the change in direction that Genesis took. But so much evidence has surfaced since then which points to Genesis taking a direction they all wanted to go. From the beginning, they wanted to be a pop band like the Beatles. I know, you listen to the early stuff with Gabriel and wonder how in the heck they thought they'd ever have commercial success, but the quotes are out there.

So, finally, after Phil "showed them how", they achieved the pop success they claim they wanted all along. It was their choice.

Artists, true artists, do what they want to do. The ones who happen to produce what millions of people are willing to pay for are labelled sellouts. They're somehow regarded less than the ones who starve and produce obscure things that relatively few will buy. If each is true to his vision, what's the problem?

To me, the "sellout" is the one who makes a conscious effort to alter his work specifically to make money. I don't see how Phil sold out. He's doing what he wants to do, and getting damned rich from it too. Good for him. But I'm still glad I stopped buying his solo albums after the second one.

Orbert

[ODV2]

There seems to be a perception that Phil was not into prog - WRONG. Brand X was prog mixed with lite fusion. It is Phil's best work on the drums at any point in his lifetime.

I never doubted that Phil was a fan of prog. In numerous interviews Phil cited Lamb Lies Down on Broadway as his favorite albums with Genesis. There is no questioning, however, that Phil has abandoned prog altogether.

[Foot Print]

Phil-UP said he retired a year or 2 back due to going deaf.
I see he is touring now again!!

Due to his sudden deafness ailment this is being billed as his farewell tour.

---------------------------------------------------------

I am very happy he has made a ton of money and his career has spanned all these 30+ years. The pleasure I have had seeing him as a drummer and then frontman/drummer for Genesis is priceless. As a drummer I could only dream of playing the way he did with Brand X and pre 80s' Genesis. And as recently as 2-3 years ago on one of the many talk shows he's appeared on, he played a short drum solo and had everyone gasping in amazement.
Of course I yearn for those more progressive days of his to have had returned even once these past 20 years, but more importantly I yearn for his current fans to purchase his more "unfamiliar" (early) works and discover what a true talent he was. This way some money would also find its way into those former bandmates pockets who aren't billionaires.
I remember hearing him sing "More Fool Me" 30 years ago...

...it's been a long, long time hasn't it?

[umgekehrt]

Phil is singing "Misunderstanding" in this tour...

[ANTIOCH]

Alot has been said of Phil's drummming,or lack thereof in recent years. In his prime, Phil was a monster !! I believe Alan's style and delivery has also changed over the years, so let's consider age and comfort zones here; but Phil a sellout ? No.
'Genesis' a sellout ? Yes.
Yes and "Owner" could also be seen as a sellout, but the intent by both bands was to make music. Unfortunately (or fortunately) for them, they hit #1. For YES, it was near disaster, but they've recovered nicely. For 'Genensis', it was the end.

[Timmo]

I remember hearing him sing "More Fool Me" 30 years ago...

...it's been a long, long time hasn't it?

Another great song.


And you'd be the one who was laughing
And giving me something I don't need
And you know, I'd always hold you and keep you warm
Oh! more fool me.

Ah, but when it comes
Round to you and me
I ask myself
Do I really believe
In your love.

Yes, I'm sure it will work out alright

[JimBob]

I went to see Phil Collins last Tuesday night at the Mohegan Sun in Uncasville. The main reason I went was because my wife has always told me she would love to see him if he ever toured again. It was a very good concert but for me it wasn't the same as seeing him with Genesis in the mid 70's. He is still a incredible drummer.

[1yesfan]

I thought the last Gen album with Phil was the best they did since Abacab. I liked him and Gen as much as I do Yes.

[1yesfan]

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