"Fixing" Union

[Q]

Anybody think they can fix Union?

None of us like it - none of Yes like it - but is there enough there to make an album, if we could toss out tracks and resequence the keepers?

Anybody think they can come up with a revised Union that would be an improvement over the original?

I'm going to try it myself, but right now I'm kicking around an ABWH "revision" ...

[Q]

How about this ...

drop "State of Play," "Walls" from "Talk"

pick up "Lift Me Up," "Miracle of Life" and "The More We Live" from "Union"

and that would give us ...

"TALK"

The Calling
I Am Waiting
Real Love
Lift Me Up
Miracle of Life
Where Will You Be
The More We Live
Endless Dream

[Angkor WHO??]

Interesting, but then what of the remaining "Union" tracks?

I would leave "Talk" the way it is. It's "Union" that needs help.

First, I would drop the Jon Anderson "solo" tracks, like "Dangerous", etc.

I would leave the first 5 tracks as is, except take out the crazy overproduction, especially in the drums. I would take out every keyboard track that was not Wakeman, Rabin, or Kaye.

"Saving My Love" would get the boot directly to Rabins' next solo effort.

However, Rabin's prog track (can't remember the title- it's out in my car) would be extended to 10 minutes, it's that good.

"The More We Live" would be extended to a 10 minute epic, with a nice instrumental interlude.

And of course, wrapping up the album, would be a twenty minute version of Angkor Wat, except it would be retitled "Angkor Wat Have We Got Ourselves Into?"

[BrianD]

Does Union really need to be 'fixed'? Just accept it for what it is - an amalgamation of disparate factions within Yes - an amalgamation that was necessary to lead Yes into the 90s. I certainly don't believe that this a masterpiece, yet it has many interesting tracks - Angkor Wat, Shock to the System, Silent Talking, The More we Live - Let Go - to name a few. The main problem with the album was the involvement of too many 'non-Yes' performers. Who really played what?

[RobAdams]

I agree Brian....UNION is far from great, but I'll put my neck on the chopping block and say it is decent enough that if it were the ONLY music YES ever issued, I'd still be a fan. I agree though. Way too many extra players. I don't think The Beatles ever had so many additional musicians on anything. It's too disjointed to be YES, but perhaps it can be filed under ABWHSRSKL and the CAST OF THOUSANDS.

I think everything YES has done has led to where they are today. I'm quite pleased with MAGNIFICATION.

When I play the UNION cd on my CD-ROM drive, I've got the album whittled down to the tracks I like and / or at least find worthwhile.
MIRACLE OF LIFE
SHOCK TO THE SYSTEM
DANGEROUS
SILENT TALKING
ANGKOR WAT
WITHOUT HOPE YOU CANNOT START THE DAY
HOLDING ON
THE MORE WE LIVE-LET GO
MASQUERADE
EVENSONG
TAKE THE WATER TO THE MOUNTAIN

[lindil]

On my " A" list [ although not everything is agrade,it just means It doesn't really annoy me.[ my A-C list I guess]

I would have waited forever
Shock to the system
masquerade
lift me up
saving my heart
miracle of life*
More we live/ let go*
Evensong*
Take the Water to the Mountain*

*= would go on an essential yes compilation

I would def. love to hear Howe redo Union [ the ABWH tracks at least]

my big question is why is one of the best drummers in the world [BB]playing so lamely?!

Was he that jaded and just going throught the motions?

[Jackaranda]

They are just too different, even the Rabin tracks on Union just don't fit.

Union gets really bad (imho) after The More We Live. It's all just filler, to me. Also, the production on the ABWH songs is really lousy. Listen to a live version of Shock to the System...It's SO much better than on Union.

The Rabin tracks are Union's best, but they aren't as good as just about anything on Talk. And Q., my pal, I like State of Play and Walls. Where Will You Be is the only track on Talk I could do without, although it would be a really good Jon solo song (which it basically is anyway).

They need to officially release the Union tour. A disappointing album but a great tour...Jack.

[Faceintheplace]

"I Would Have Waited Forever" - I'd keep the same, except not fade out the ending

"Shock to the System" - Lose the overproduction, add distortion to some of the guitar parts, add Rick Wakeman playing Grand Piano into the slow reprise of the "So... the one you want is there...." section.

"Masquerade" - fine as is

"Lift Me Up" - Give it more edge, maybe edit it to a lean 3:50 or 4 min. Add Tony Kaye playing Hammond organ.

"Without Hope, You Cannot Start The Day" - I'd turn it into the epic centerpiece of the album. First off, extended intro: Rick does dramatic build up on the keyboards (similar to "Mind Drive") then add Steve playing Spanish guitar, then cue Jon: "Hold still now...." for the first bit, I'd keep the piano simple like on Elias' version, but after "Oh Why..." I'd let Rick play like Rick, throw some Bruford millitary drumming on real drums during the "I Can See..." sections, restore the original middle section, and extend the outro. I think it'd be about 9 minutes long or so.

"Miracle of Life" - I'd also extend this too, longer intro, extended coda: "Hold on - Hold On - Hold On to the miracle of life" sung accapella instead of Jon listing off continenets and principalities.

"The More We Give Let Go" - extend it a bit.

add in "Love Conquers All"

add in "To The Stars"

Place "Saving My Heart" here but use the Union tour arrangement

"Evensong" would be a full jam like on the ABWH '90 tour.

cut "Angkor Watt," "Holding On" and "Dangerous",

"Take the Water" Union tour arrangement

last cut: "Silent Talking" - much longer intro, have actual verses in Jon's lyrics section, add more bass presence, maybe even a solo, full ending, after the last "Talking...." reprise the outro riff to "I Would Have Wated Forever" once and there you go.

[Mr. Holland]

Well, I can't really see any point in fixing Union as a studio album. What I would like to see however is that the current line-up takes say two tracks of the album, the tracks of which they were the least satisfied with of how they were put on the album, and then show us fans what they should have sounded like according to them. I mean, especially Rick and Steve have always stated their dislike of how the album was put together (lots of session musicians adding things and sometimes even replace an original part), then I say, stop complaining and show us what you would have made of it!!

[Dragonfly]

Q : I really love UNION. I definitely like it better than THE LADDER and would probably favor it over MAGNIFICATION, too. (I’ll have to think about that one more.) Also, I don’t think the entire band were disappointed. Jon must have been pleased with most of it and Steve came off sounding good.

As for changes (take the pun if you want): UNION was supposed to be ANDERSON BRUFORD (LEVIN) WAKEMAN HOWE – BOOK II. As such, move the YesWest tracks to other albums of theirs depending on sound. I’d move "Saving My Heart" to BIG GENERATOR and put "Lift Me Up" and “Miracle of Life” on TALK. “The More We Live, Let Go” belongs on OPEN YOUR EYES You know, the Chris-n-Billy album? I realize that Trevor’s on there, so something might need to be done about that. How about a pre-Trevor demo version type?

What’s left would need to be remixed to bring back Rick’s work. I really like Bill’s work, so I don’t see any need to change it. I would like a slightly drier mix overall. Not too dry, but the production is a bit over-the-top as it currently stands. The whole thing’s too busy.

That’s always been the biggest complaint : the production. The compositions themselves are quite good. “Silent Talking” and “Holding On” stand out as excellent to my ears. I really, really like “Angkor Wat” and “Take the Water to the Mountain”. “Evensong”, while more like something from Tony’s WORLD DIARY album (like, almost exactly like “Jewels”) is still a beautiful song. If Steve gets “Masquerade”, Bill and Tony should still get “Evensong”. I’ve always liked Yes’s “little bits” on their albums.

As ANDERSON BRUFORD (LEVIN) WAKEMAN HOWE – BOOK II, it would be a terrific album.

Neat thread, Q. Thanks!

Dragonfly :fly:

[1yesfan]

"Angkor Wat Have We Got Ourselves Into?"

That is funny as hell. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I agree as posted in this thread. RELEASE A OFFICIAL CD/DVD of this tour!!!!!!!!

[yessongs72]

Originally posted by Q
Anybody think they can fix Union?

None of us like it - none of Yes like it - but is there enough there to make an album, if we could toss out tracks and resequence the keepers?

Anybody think they can come up with a revised Union that would be an improvement over the original?

I'm going to try it myself, but right now I'm kicking around an ABWH "revision" ...

Actually,I think this supports my closed minded self being the "Classic Yes Fan"! Yes,together other than the current line up can be a nightmare,there's no chemistry,no magic! Now for those of you that like anything that Yes put's out,that's ok.But I don't think there's any fixing union and other non Classic Yes Music.I know we all have different tastes,and hopefully one of you can come up with a solution,but I doubt there's one!

[Faceintheplace]

Oh and nix "Where Will You Be" on Talk and put "Holding On" in its place.

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by Faceintheplace
Oh and nix "Where Will You Be" on Talk and put "Holding On" in its place. Huh? O.K., first, why would you put a great AB(L)WH song on TALK? That doesn't even make sense.

Second, "Where Will You Be" is a great song. If you don't like that, I'm guessing your one of those anti-"Circus of Heaven" types, too. Right? Oh well. There's nothing I can help you with there.

It's hard to pick favorites, but "Where Will You Be" is one of my top two or three favorites on TALK. So I certainly wouldn't dump it. (Besides, I don't see how dropping tracks off of TALK helps to fix UNION.)

Thanks for playing, FaceInThePlace. Please try again. :D

Dragonfly :fly:

[Scooty]

I quote Frank Zappa...

"You can't polish a turd."

[Hugh Shiebler]

Now, I wonder: how much of this is BS?

http://www.bondegezou.demon.co.uk/iv/jeinterview.htm

(Producer Jonathan Elias dissing/distancing himself from UNION)

Q: The making of Union is shrouded in mystery: perhaps you can shed some light on its proceedings. You seem to have written a number of the songs for Union with Jon Anderson in the studio. Was that because of a shortage of good enough material or a planned collaboration?

Jonathan Elias: There was no material. Basically, what there was was Steve [Howe] was working on a solo album [later released as Turbulence] and he brought in some things. Jon [Anderson] brought in one or two faint ideas. The problem is they hated each other so much at that point. I couldn't get Jon and Steve to sit down in a room together without me and the only way that Steve would do anything is to wake up and get very stoned and he was no good for the whole day after that. So we would sit down and try to write a few chords and here are my sort of kid pop idols and they couldn't string three chords together without fighting about what they were. And that was just putting Jon and Steve together, and constantly Steve would be badgering me about how he hated Jon's lyrics and how Jon had no good ideas. And Jon would say to me, 'Oh, Steve's just so washed out and Asia was such a horrible thing—look what it did to him.' You had Rick Wakeman who… all he wanted to do was get out there in the mix. And Rick had three or four parts that he would play, the same thing on everything. I would bring a Hammond organ in—he wouldn't touch the Hammond. He said, 'That's old-fashioned.' Not realising… well, he's so out of touch—what good would it have done had he played? I couldn't get these guys to sit down and write material without other people being in the room because of the social reasons. They had just been on the road for so many years and they probably had so many episodes with each other. Half of them couldn't really play any more. I mean, it was really sad. They were just sloppy and tired and old.

Q: How much time pressure was there?

JE: There was a lot of time pressure because, really, these guys were just doing it for the money, because they couldn't do anything else. They all tried solo careers and nothing really happened with any of the solo careers, so they realised that they were forced to be together. And the only way they could really make money was touring. They couldn't make money on an album unless it had a pop sensibility and they were so far removed from what a pop sensibility was at that point without Trevor [Rabin]. There were times I tried to push them into that, but they would just bad mouth Trevor, particularly Steve. Ooof, boy, did he hate Trevor! I thought that the stuff that he [Rabin] had done was very fresh, but both Rick, at that point, and Steve would just really nail me because they wanted to have nothing to do with him.

So what happened was we would start writing and they would stop writing. Steve wouldn't listen to one of Rick's parts, Rick wouldn't listen to one of Steve's parts. And all Bill Bruford wanted to know is, 'Is it coming in on budget?'. They didn't care about a note of music. They all thought that Jon was stealing money from them. I guess they had a manager who used to steal money from them or... who knows what creative accounting they had ever done on each other, but none of them ever trusted each other.

Q: In the end, you are credited with co-writing nearly every ABWH song. Were you ever writing with the other ABWH members, or does this reflect your subsequent work on their initial ideas?

JE: They didn't have any initial ideas. I'd say Steve had a couple. Rick didn't have anything.

Q: Didn't you take Steve Howe's solo album...

JE: Yeah, we took a couple of licks off of Steve's solo album and I would encourage Jon to develop them. And he would say, 'This piece of trash,' and I'd say, 'Jon, this is all that we have and let's make the best of it.' So, there wasn't really this spirit of this magical, wonderful, open-hearted feeling of the word Yes that I expected, which sort of devastated me at first. It took me a couple of weeks to really understand that. I had just worked with Duran Duran and we'd had several number one songs. These [Duran Duran] were guys who could not play their instruments all that great, but they had a good taste level. Then here I was, working with a band [Yes] that I thought technically were good, but they had no taste.

They could not write without someone there as a buffer, so I guess I ended up being a buffer. I'm not particularly proud of some of the chords, some of the melodies, that came out of it, but it was a miracle that it was ever even recorded.

Q: How did the whole situation on Union, with Wakeman's and Howe's parts being largely replaced, come about? Was that a decision in which you were involved, or did it come from above?

JE: Well, if anyone knows anything about this band, Jon rules it like an iron hand. It came from Jon. Jon was the associate producer on the album. It came from him when Steve's parts were obviously not what they should have been. Jon said let's go to California and let's work with someone there.
And when we had our Paris experience with Rick, which was a fiasco because we couldn't get him off of the TV... I still think that's why he hates me because I made him stop watching TV, more than even his parts were being replaced, because he certainly didn't care about the project. He was just doing this to bide time until his next solo album was coming out. I guess then he realised that his fan base had really gone and then he started to care a little bit more.

So what happened was, Jon and I were searching for a guitar player and a bunch of people brought up this name Jimmy Haun. We ended up meeting Jimmy. Jimmy's the best thing that happened to me out of the album. We became best friends and I have nothing but wonderful things from that experience. Jon ended up using Jimmy on all his solo stuff that he was doing around then. If he really didn't like Jimmy, he wouldn't be on the album.
As far as the keyboards, it was Jon's call. Jon said let's work with Steve Porcaro. Hence we worked with Steve Porcaro. If anyone ever thinks it was me who brought in any other keyboard player, all you have to do is scratch the surface—you know that Jon runs that band.

Q: What of the keyboard parts on the ABWH songs did you play; and who were the other main keys players you employed?

JE: I didn't really play that many keyboard parts. I played several, but they were really just the parts that I had played with Jon and Steve in the writing process and Jon wanted those exact parts on there. He didn't want them to be clouded with some of the other parts that Rick had played, because it was pretty obvious when we got the tapes back that Rick hadn't listened to Steve's parts. We started out working with Steve and then we went and worked with Rick in Paris and Rick didn't want to hear Steve's parts. So that gives you a window into how this band is really not a band. They were really just there to put something out so they could tour. And some of the other players that we ended up using really cared more about the project than the players that were in the band. Tony Levin was a lifesaver for me. He was the only person who had any rationale in the whole project.

Q: What did the session percussionists add to the music?

JE: Well, the session percussionists, they really added the same thing that all the extra musicians added. They cared about the project. No-one in the band cared about the project, with the exception perhaps of Jon, and Steve, to a certain extent. It's just that Jon's vision, Steve's vision were two totally different things. There were a lot of personality conflicts there. Steve and Rick just would bad mouth each other all the time and it was really difficult to be stuck in the middle of Jon not really putting his foot down and telling them, 'This is what I want.' This is Jon's band and I certainly feel that Trevor [Rabin] and Chris Squire did a lot better job than these guys ever did.

Q: … and Billy Sherwood?

JE: And Billy Sherwood is another example. There's someone who really cared about the band, tried to revive it, and got backstabbed by the whole band.
It's sad, because I once thought that these guys were great players, but they can barely play their instruments and they play too many notes. [laughs] Look, it's ten years later, twelve years later, something like that. I've done very well for myself with many, many things. I've worked with Alanis Morissette, James Taylor, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and had some great collaborations. So, looking back on the whole experience, it really was a good thing for me because it got me off producing records and it got me into other things, where I really could do what I wanted. The whole experience was kinda sad. It was a babysitting experiment... And you really saw that, if it wasn't for Trevor [Rabin] in the mid-eighties, they would have disbanded a long time ago.

Q: Most Yes fans have very negative feelings towards Union and you would agree with them on that. However, many Yes fans blame you and the extra musicians for what happened with the project—how does that make you feel?

JE: I don't really care about having Yes fans not like me. That's water under the bridge. What I care more about is the concept that the negative feelings towards Union were because of the extra musicians. The truth is it wouldn't have been done without the extra musicians. Because the level of distrust between Steve and Jon and Rick again, they just wouldn't work with each other, so we had to put up a guitar track that Steve had done and get a musician to play along with it. It was constant situation with that—their parts had nothing to do with each other, so we really had to bring in the players in order just to get the project physically done.

Q: What do you think of the other tracks on Union and about Yes's work since Union?

JE: I have a lot of respect for Billy Sherwood and for Trevor Rabin—always have, always will. I don't know how Trevor did it. I assume that Trevor sort of just went off and did most of his writing and production by himself and then brought the guys in, because that's how the tracks sound. I can't imagine it being any other way and the same really is true with Billy. Billy's a wonderful musician and I was able to see how they shafted him along the way.

I don't think much of Yes any more. I don't listen to them. I don't think anything about it, to be honest. I've moved on to working with people like Alanis Morissette and James Taylor and people that I think have a little bit more of a meaningful statement and have an impact on the year 2000. Yes is stuck in 1980 with Asia... and that's really where Steve [Howe] is just locked up and he can't play guitar any more.

[Dr.Bass]

It's all Mr. Elias's fault. Clearly he desperatley wanted to be in Yes somehow. He's worked alongside Jon enough, and recently he produced Robert Downey Jr.'s album, er, 'The Futurist' (I think), and guess what- there's a cover of Your Move on there!

I wonder whos idea that was.

I've done my own Union split between ABWH & Talk, it works for me- most of the music is appropriate for the era; as an album Unioin sucks, I'd love to get the tour dvd though, if only there were an official region 2 version.

[Hugh Shiebler]

Probably right. I just find the intensity of his venom & willingness to disparage astonishing. He must really have been stung by that exact criticism: you ruined it.

I think that if the two separate albums had been allowed to run their own course, and been released separately, it would have been vastly better.

Still, as someone who actually enjoyed Union when it came out, I really feel duped and kind of cheated. I knew that it had been "messed with", but I had no idea of the extent. What a sham/e.

[Joe]

I say leave it as it is. It's a part of YES history!
It's not my favorite, but what the heck! :nono:

[Andersonic]

I think that JE is not smart with this 'revealing' story especially about the studio work.
A good producer must inspire the musicians, kick their lazy butts when nescesarry and keep a good overview. I think the label is to blame too, they wanted an album to go along with the tour.

Bruce Fairbarn knew how too deal with ego's and Rob Rock does too...

[flep]

I Like Union

Despite all that has been said about the album by both the members of Yes and also people on this site I still listen to it quite a lot and think it has some great tracks. I find it is the one album that my wife listens to alot as well. I think maybe it is because it contains crossover tracks between "yes west" and old style "trooper yes" as many people here call them. I just love Yes period

[Orbert]

Now, I wonder: how much of this is BS?That's an interesting interview, and I wonder, too. It is internally consistent, and most of it fits with what we've heard about the Union sessions.

If it's all or mostly true, then it sure does explain a lot of things.

If it's mostly BS, well, then the guy's full of BS. All he's doing is defending himself and the "blame" he's taken for the end result.

As always, the truth is probably somewhere in between, but what worries me is that it sounds pretty convincing to me. But I don't think I've ever read anything from Jonathan E before. Maybe it's all BS; I don't know.

[brotherofmine]

I Like Union

Despite all that has been said about the album by both the members of Yes and also people on this site I still listen to it quite a lot and think it has some great tracks. I find it is the one album that my wife listens to alot as well. I think maybe it is because it contains crossover tracks between "yes west" and old style "trooper yes" as many people here call them. I just love Yes period
Here! Here! Phil. Couldn't put it better myself! I love uNion is one of my favourite albums.

[Andersonic]

mine too...it was such a treat back then because I had only became a fan since ABWH.

[Hugh Shiebler]

You know...I really enjoyed "Union" when it came out. I listened to it constantly that year. And, I felt fortunate to see tha "Union" your in LA- - from what I read, one of the better shows.

Seeing Anderson, Squire, Wakeman Bruford and Howe - - just those five -- do "Long Distance Runaround" together is a treasured memory, something that I am pretty sure I will never see again!

I didn't think "Union" was perfect, obviously, but I enjoyed most of it & was just glad that Yes was together and making music in some form.

But I always did wonder about that roster of studio musicians: what could they possibly all have done? Then I began to hear the various band members trash the whole project. Now (for the first time) I see how the Producer feels about it. (And by the way: at least some of that Elias interview IS clearly BS:

"Half of them couldn't really play any more. I mean, it was really sad. They were just sloppy and tired and old. " Come on.

And I also just read guitarist Jimmy Haun's detailed account of exactly what he DID play on the album. Mind boggling. I feel so USED. Maybe even betrayed - - as Haun AND Elias both make very clear that NOTHING on "Union" was done without Anderson's approval.

It's funny: I had just recently been getting back into "Holding On" - - which is a much stronger track than I remember it being.

As always, I will continue to take my Yes enjoyment as I can get it. Despite the Endless Nonsense, they STILL mange to come up with some brilliant music.

Maybe with ceratin Yes albums - - as with sausage - - you are better off not knowing exactly how it is made!

[Hugh Shiebler]

By the way...

Here is the Jimmy Haun interview in the right place, since I initially posted it in The Ladder thread. (Sorry: still figuring out the navigation around here).

The thread would more properly be called

Rethinking UNION

> I never knew this! (How guitarist Jimmy Haun replaced most of Steve Howe's parts on UNION)

http://www.bondegezou.demon.co.uk/iv/jhinterview.htm

Jimmy Haun:

I remember hearing "Roundabout" on the radio once and it changed my whole perspective on music. So I bought the record and listened over and over. Next I bought Close to the Edge and of course learned "And You and I". But the real pivot point for me as a guitarist was locking myself in my room for one month and learning Yes's version of "America" note for note..

HP: How did you get involved on Union?

JH: Well, I got a call one day from my friend Steve Porcaro (who knew of my love of Yes) and he said they (Arista) were looking for a guitar player who could sound like Steve Howe. So I went to A&M studios in Hollywood to meet Jon Elias and he played me the rough tracks for the new ABWH album. Basically he told me Arista felt Steve's guitar parts were unacceptable and that he had just soloed over all the songs. Now this was partially true. What they wanted was a blend of the old classic Steve Howe sound mixed with Trevor Rabin! I guess they felt it would sell more records. So Jonathan gave me a mix of three songs with no guitar on them ("Without Hope", "Dangerous" and "Silent Talking"), told me to do what Howe/Rabin would do. So in my home studio I recorded wall to wall guitar parts and mailed Jonathan the tape to New York.

HP: When you came in to do the guitar parts, who were you working with in the studio?

JH: I would track from 5pm till usually 5am. I did this for a straight month and a half with no days off. Basically, they made a 24-track slave tape with a rough mix of the song with Jon's vocal and I would lay ideas on the remaining 20 or so tracks. After each session Jonathan [Elias] would play it for Jon Anderson and I would get feedback that way. It was Jon Anderson, Jon Elias and one other person (whom I've been asked not to mention) who made the final decision what part would go on the album.

HP: So tell us about the details of Union...

JH: Arista really wanted classic Steve Howe and I guess they felt they weren't getting it with the existing parts. So I did my best and I think a lot of it worked (I even fooled some band members). Arista was originally not going to credit me at all, so I was lucky to get what credit I got. So for posterity here's what was Steve and what was me.

Track 1: "I Would Have Waited Forever". The opening riff is me (Arista wanted this sort of a "Starship Trooper" thing), then Steve really just played the recurring single thread line at 0:24 to 0:49 and the end solo. I played all the other guitars (electrics, acoustic, some effect overdubs).

Track 2: "Shock to the System". Must have been a shock to Steve's system—there is simply no Steve Howe on that at all! Steve had, of course, written the opening riff (which I ended up replacing for sonic reasons). I think this was my favorite track because I got to write most of the riffs and there was this new section we came up with and tacked on at 4:10 and the riff is very reminiscent of "Gates of Delirium". And I had to replace some of the bass! (Tony Levin left his bass at the studio so we got his exact sound and added the sections.) I guess Steve refused to play this section live. (This is the track that Rabin played for Steve on the plane during the Union tour and Steve's mouth dropped.)

Track 5: "Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day". Once again there is no Steve Howe on this at all (I don't think Steve ever even heard this song). Jon and Jonathan wrote this one.

Track 8: "Silent Talking". I replaced the main riff because there were timing discrepancies and I tried to get as close to Steve Howe's sound as I could. There are a couple of riffs that were kept of Steve's, where you can hear his tone is a little different, like at 0:46 to 1:03.

Track 11: "Dangerous". No Steve here. Not one of my favorites on the album but the one I guess I was "featured" on, oh well.

Track 12: "Holding On". Steve just played the first main riff at 0:31 to 0:47 and that's it folks. There is a lot of riffing on this especially toward the end, but it is all me and I think it's a pretty good likeness of Steve.

Track 14: "Take the Water to the Mountain". No Steve here either. Lots of Howe likenesses though.

Track 15: "Give and Take". It starts out Steve on the main melody and I did harmonics over that. I played all of the verses as well as the chorus. Steve's sound is basically the distorted thinner sound that never changes tone. It was that way on all his tracks and I think the powers that be felt there needed to be more colors from the guitars, hence my involvement.

HP: Looking back, how do you view Union now? What did you think of the mostly negative reaction among Yes fans to the album, and what do you think of it yourself these days?

JH: I think that the record is very palatable and has a lot to offer musically. I do understand the fan reaction and I think a lot of it has little to do with the musical aspect, but rather the political and the fact that there isn't much Yes there. And if I was Steve Howe, I would have been ticked off if someone came in and replaced my parts too. But I did try to be sensitive to his sound and style like using a Gibson ES-175 and stuff.

HP: And how do you feel when somebody says, "I liked Steve Howe's guitar work on that track," when you know that was actually you?

JH: Well, flattered because I fooled them into thinking it was Steve and frustrated because of the lack of credit, but that's OK.

HP: We've talked a bit about being a Yes fan yourself: how did you get into the band? What are your favorite Yes songs/albums? And what do you think of the most recent Yes albums, since Union?

JH: I heard "Roundabout" at a party in 1971 and it sounded like heaven or something, so different than anything on the radio. So I bought the single with "Long Distance Runaround" on the back. I ended up buying every Yes album possible and eagerly awaiting the next release. I have to say my favorite album is Close to the Edge, then Relayer—Steve's solo in "To be Over" is a masterpiece. Then Topographic Oceans. To me, Yes became a different animal after 90125, not that I didn't enjoy them, Rabin's work was brilliant, still it seemed to become a pop machine so my interest in the newer started drifting and I kept going back to the Topographic Ocean's and Close to the Edge's. Billy [Sherwood]'s involvement was very important. He did and wanted to do so much for that band, but as Rabin said it's a very tough position.

[shortexchanges]

Lift Me Up! Shock To The System! Silent Talking! These 3 Songs Alone Make Union Worth The Price!! My Wife Likes Saving My Heart Its Better Product Than Big Loverator!

[flep]

Lift Me Up! Shock To The System! Silent Talking! These 3 Songs Alone Make Union Worth The Price!! My Wife Likes Saving My Heart Its Better Product Than Big Loverator!

What is it about wives and "Union"

My wife loves it the most out of all the Yes albums as I said a few posts above.

Strange this....

Is there some concealed message in the lyrics.


Thinks.....

Must listen to Union again!!!!

[JaneEyre]

Lift Me Up! Shock To The System! Silent Talking! These 3 Songs Alone Make Union Worth The Price!! My Wife Likes Saving My Heart...

I agree. And your wife is a smart lady!

[Roan's Lady]

What is it about wives and "Union"...

Is there some concealed message in the lyrics.



I dunno. I'm a wife and I think it's an embarrassment. The message concealed in the lyrics is "This album STINKS". :thumbdown

[flep]

:dog: I dunno. I'm a wife and I think it's an embarrassment. The message concealed in the lyrics is "This album STINKS". :thumbdown

[JL]

What is it about wives and "Union"

My wife loves it the most out of all the Yes albums as I said a few posts above.

Strange this....

Is there some concealed message in the lyrics.


Thinks.....

Must listen to Union again!!!!

My wife has been to two YesShows with me, is going to More Drama with me, has heard Yesshows, Yessongs, GFTO, Drama, Tormato, Relayer, ABWH and 90125, all because I played them while she was in the room.

I don't think she's ever heard Union. Unless she grabs my copy and puts it on herself, she probably never will.

[neilius]

I dont beleive the part of the interview that Steve Howe was stoned all the time or that he couldnt play very well either. Consider Masquerade.
I also Loved Union when it came out; dont care too much for it now.

[Rick N Backer]

I liked Union a lot when it came out. I still like it now, but it isn't a great Yes album in my opinion. The YesWest stuff fares better than the ABWH stuff for me, but it does have an awfully disjointed feel to it. The irony is that it did do rather well in the charts at the time - No 10 in the UK if I remember rightly - and that was the best showing for Yes for some time. I certainly prefer it to Talk, and what's more, the tour that went with it was fantastic.

[cinderella]

I only like the songs on Union that Trevor sang. That is except for Shock To The System. That song sucks some major swamp water.

[YesJen357]

Gee, I AM in a minority group!
I am nervous, but unashamed to admit that I like 'Union' and wouldn't change a thing.
What can I say, other than - "it works for me!"
And for that matter, I haven't ever been able to understand all the considerable criticism that this album clearly generates. Maybe it should have been called - 'Big Generator!'

[Faceintheplace]

I don't argue that there was some disenchantment within the ABWH camp in the late 80s/ early 90s but Elias sounds like he's exagerating to make himself look good. Seems like a good producer would have tried harder to get everyone together. I think Elias is a hack producer who got a lot of lucky breaks. I don't love Union but I don't really hate it either. One of songs that I don't mind on it, "The More We Give" had some production work done on it by Eddie Offord. I wish he had been put in charge of the whole album.

[Hugh Shiebler]

What is it about "Shock to the System" that repels you so?

As I recall it was pretty good in concert, with Squire doing his best to approximate the Tony Levin Part...

So I'm getting ready to post, reading the instructions, and I think "Why would I want to "Disable similies" in my text? Does that mean that I would have to rely on metaphor and hyperbole?

Oh, "Smilies". Oooo K. Nevermind....

[cinderella]

What is it about "Shock to the System" that repels you so?



The singing. Jon and Trevor sound like two sick cats on a fence.
It's even worse sung live. Trevor looks like he's in pain when singing it.

When I was watching the live performance of Shock To The System from Denver, my son said, "God Mom, turn that thing off. It's horrible!" He was right.

[Hugh Shiebler]

Yeah,

Re: Elias, I honestly could not believe that interview when I found it. It is so over the top & unprofessional that I almost wondered if it was real. But apparently it is. He is CLEARLY exaggerating the difficulties, and just gratuitously sliming and insulting the band members.

I mean obviously there were serious dys-functionalities, and personality/ego/money/control issues that we can't even imagine. But that interview tells me much more about Elias than it does about Yes. (Although learning that much about Elias speaks VOLUMES about the finished product which is ("Union").

[rgfudd99]

It looks like someone did try to "fix" Union last year. Or at least make it shorter. Not that it helped much. I bought a CD yesterday at Wal-Mart called (re)Union for $5.88. It's the Union album minus 5 tracks. Basically, the CD keeps tracks 1-9, skips Dangerous and Angkor Wat, and then closes the CD with Holding On and then skips the last 3 songs. I had never seen this compilation before. I hadn't heard this record in at least 10 years- maybe more-I didn't like it too much then and, even now, it just doesn't seem to work. I'm not a big Rabin fan and his songs are the strongest here.

[Jackaranda]

I thought it went on too long, and the last 15 minutes sounded like a Jon solo album.

As I've said elsewhere, I have a different appreciation for it because someone pointed out to me that certain songs on Union were quite uplifting to them when they needed that. I went back and listened and thought "yeah".

[rgfudd99]

Here is a look at the the re-Union cd cover if you haven't seen it before. It's obviously not a Roger Dean piece. Who makes the decisions about these kinds of releases anyway?

[chris flynn]

wow.. I really like 1/2 of this album.. Miracle of Life and The More we Live and Silent Talking are just friggin excellent. Angkor Wat I dig also. Lift me up is cool for the guitar work. for me, the record is worth the first 3 songs I mentioned..

[shortexchanges]

Union Has Larceny On Its Heart. Steve Howe Was Violated By The Final Product. I Confess There Are Tracks I Like. Shock To The System Live Rocks And Rocks Hard.

I Truly Miss Any New Studio Product 4 Years After Magnifacation!!

[Frumious B]

This business of Haun implying that Howe couldn't play is clearly BS. Listen to Turbulence. Is Haun claiming he played on Turbulence too? It even shares a few guitar parts with Union. Clearly, Steve Howe was more than capable of playing those parts himself. If Haun is telling the truth about the amount of guitar that he plays on the album then the only reason I can think of for replacing Howe was that maybe Elias wanted a more conventional 80s arena rock guitar sound as opposed to Howe's rootsier approach, which wasn't particularly fashionable at the time Union was released.

Anyway, the only version of Union that I would consider "fixed" would be one with all guitars played by Howe or Rabin and all keyboards played by Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye or Rabin.

[Orbert]

Anyway, the only version of Union that I would consider "fixed" would be one with all guitars played by Howe or Rabin and all keyboards played by Rick Wakeman, Tony Kaye or Rabin.
We have a winner!

I've always been aghast at the amount of music on this Yes album that was not actually played by Yes. I've also always thought the album was pretty good anyways, but it's tough to listen to now without constantly being reminded that that lick I thought was Steve... isn't. And you thought that was Rick there? Wrong! The only parts I can really be sure of are Jon and Trevor on vocals. Anything else is apparently up for debate.

The sticker on the front touted this one as the one with all eight Yesmen on it. True. But it should have also mentioned that half the sessions musicians in the state of California also played. That's the real crime.

[PhaseDance]

Five words:

I want my money back.

If the two interviews in this thread are to be believed regarding the non-YesWest tracks, this is very disturbing.

[heishere]

Here is a look at the the re-Union cd cover if you haven't seen it before. It's obviously not a Roger Dean piece. Who makes the decisions about these kinds of releases anyway?

there's a copy of this (re)union cd at hastings (a record store chain) here in town, and i was interested in buying it cause i really like union inspite of the disheartening backdrop painted by the interview at the beginning of this thread. i already own the regular union, so somebody tell me, is this (re)union (the one with the cover that rgfudd99 comments on) is it really that different from the first one? and what does it mean if an album (like, say, ctte) is "remastered"? do the songs really sound that much different? i'd appreciate someone's insight on this... and thanks...

[YesJen357]

Fixing Union?????
It aint busted............So no need to fix it!!!!

Sorry, I really love this album, as I do all of them!

[Hacman]

there's a copy of this (re)union cd at hastings (a record store chain) here in town, and i was interested in buying it cause i really like union inspite of the disheartening backdrop painted by the interview at the beginning of this thread. i already own the regular union, so somebody tell me, is this (re)union (the one with the cover that rgfudd99 comments on) is it really that different from the first one? and what does it mean if an album (like, say, ctte) is "remastered"? do the songs really sound that much different? i'd appreciate someone's insight on this... and thanks...

I bought it in a cutout bin about two months ago, the only difference appears to be - less tracks. There's nothing on the jewel box or CD that says it was digitally remastered. If you have the original, you don't need this.