80's/90's Yes Gone forever?????

[1yesfan]

With the direction that Yes has been taking for the last years do you think we will hear the Rabin era Yes played again? I think there is some good stuff out there that was really never played that is worthy of Tour coverage.

[fragilesi]

Personally I doubt it now, it's not that it's bad stuff but I doubt Howe would like much of it in the set and only "Owner" was a big hit that they might feel that they have to play. My feeling is that most of the stuff will no longer see the light of a Yesshow.

Simon.

[1yesfan]

But there are several pcs that maybe Howe could tweet to more his liking. Since most concert goers are folks like us, we will know even the 80/90 stuff. I say play ED or Shoot high aim low !

[haroldthebarrel]

I think the Rabin era Yes will still be heard. I wouldn't be suprised if a song off of Talk or 90125 makes it to their Orchestral setlist. I mean, they ARE doing the Orchestra thing for the first time in years. There's so much music to cover, and if Yes feels that a song fro the Rabin era should be symphonized, then I don't think Howe would be so cruel as to prevent something that should happen form happening just because Rabin wrote it.

I am not saying I can think of a song in particular from that era that would be perfect for Orchestration, but I am sure there is one. I haven't listened to the 80's era of Yes in a while, and can't really remember how all the songs go on 90125, but I'd say whether we see a Rabin song turn up at the upcoming tour or not (other than owner) is uncertain. I do think we have a better chance of a Rabin-song-only tour than an ABWH song being played someday on tour.

[Mike Park]

Originally posted by joecampbel
[ I do think we have a better chance of a Rabin-song-only tour than an ABWH song being played someday on tour. [/B]

If I were a cynic, I'd agree. Being an optimist, I would hope to hear ABWH material played again live. IMO we saw the creative energy of Jon unleashed then, after being pent up in the Rabin-era YesPop (or Yeslite) period. Rick had not talked with him for over eight years when Jon told him he wanted to get back to real Yesmusic, and Rick was ready to, too. I think you can really see both Steve and Rick feeding off of Jon's energy on the ABWH tracks, and really being out front of it all (Themes, FofF, Order, Quartet). There seems to be more individual creative license here than on the Keys studio tracks for instance, or the YesWest (i.e. no-Rick) ventures, OYE and Ladder.

Anyway, that's my thought.

[1yesfan]

Chances are, like the Drama stuff we will not hear any live ABWH either!

[haroldthebarrel]

I just realized,
I haven't listened to ABWH in like, a year! I am going to have to crank it up tonight for the Cinco De Mayo Crowd!

Now that I think about it, I am noticing that I haven't been listening to Yes enough lately. I haven't heard my Drama record in a year or so either, same with Tormato, 90125, Time and a word, and Open your eyes.

I think I might be partying too hard lately or something, all I have had the urge to throw on at get-togethers the last year or so has been Relayer, Close to the Edge, GFT1, Tales....., The Yes Album, Yeshows, and early Genesis.

I am still baffled at the fact that King crimson is touring with TOOL though. But anyways.... I am just babbling.....:smksml: :smksml: :smksml: :smksml:

[1yesfan]

Just like the past couple tours the months leading to the shows I stopped listening to Yes on a major scale, and now I am cranking Rush a lot and other groups that have been sitting around the house. Kind of a purge of Yes in my head so it's fresh when i go to the show.

[Mike Park]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joecampbel
[B]I just realized,
I haven't listened to ABWH in like, a year! I am going to have to crank it up tonight for the Cinco De Mayo Crowd!

Now that I think about it, I am noticing that I haven't been listening to Yes enough lately. I haven't heard my Drama record in a year or so either, same with Tormato, 90125, Time and a word, and Open your eyes.
***
My wife has been on her annual spring cleaning kick, which means a bunch of stuff goes out the door to "the shed" (our pole barn). Last Sat it was the old stereo receiver we've had for 25 years and cassette deck, which I set up immediately. The first thing I listened to while puttering around out there was "Union" (or Onion, as Rick calls it because it makes him cry every time he hears it), which I've not heard for probably a year - except for the bootleg tour I got off of Napster. I wonder who had the upper hand on those cuts before their release? It's not my favorite, sure, but it's better than some, esp. after not hearing it in so long. Then on a long drive that same day, we listened to Yesterdays which I've not heard in probably a couple of years, and I've been humming or whistling Survival ever since!:crazy:

[Trooper]

One thing I've learned from all the tours that I have seen is to expect the unexpected!! As an example: Last year, my brother and I came up with what we THOUGHT would be the set list for the Masterworks tour. We actually came up with about 12-16 songs. They played 8!!! So much for predictions!! Of course, this is what makes anticipating the upcoming tour so much fun!

One thing to keep in mind is that most of RW's parts were "orchestra-influenced" from the start (After all, the man is a composer of orchestral music). I don't see a problem here! In fact, I would venture to guess that the dynamics will be awesome! What I HOPE doesn't happen is that it turns into a "Boston-Pops" type of arrangement (From what I've read on this site, that seems to be the fear of us "old" guys!). And that's what I think would happen with the music of the '80's and early '90's. The Trevor Rabin era is more "pop" oriented (I would say with the exception of "Talk"). An orchestra just doesn't lend itself to this era.

...but then again, I've been fooled by the band before!!!

[1yesfan]

If we hear any Rabin era stuff I would think chances are it will be from Talk.

:lol:

[haroldthebarrel]

I just hope they don't turn all of their great music into music like ELO. I was listening to that with my roomate the other day because he thinks ELO is awesome. I can't wait to see what he thinks of Fish out of Water!:damack:

[Dragonfly]

I was never in the right frame of mind for a new Yes album. When Trevor Rabin appeared I had finally gone hard-core with the band's earlier material. I couldn't do 90125 for, like, a couple of years. Each album has been a challenge to get into. Open Your Eyes was very hard to accept. Talk was probably the easiest to like up front. Now I love all of the them :thumbup: (though I'm still having trouble with elements of Keys to Ascension.):rolleyes:

It's amazing that now, when most of what I hear is orchestral, the band are getting back into that, too. When you read the insert to your Fragile album about what musicians the band find inspiration in, virtually all of them listed Stravinsky among a substantial list of orchestral composers.:cool:

My delving into Bax, Debussy, Ravel, Rismky-Korsakov and, of course, Stravinsky over the last few years is now paying off. I'm finally in the right space for the new Yes album!:ohhyeah: (How fortunate that I would get great seats for the gig, too!):thumbup:

I think it's quite possible for Rabin-era material to be played. "Hearts" comes quickly to mind. I can even hear "Changes" in my head with an orchestral arangement as well as fine renderings of "Final Eyes" and "Real Love". How about "Cinema"? Now that would be COOL!bncsmls

I don't think any AB(L)WH or Drama will make it. (If only Jon could see what a stellar piece "Tempus Fugit" is, my dreams would come true!):yesbird:

[Trooper]

I agree with the "Cinema" and "Tempus Fugit" takes, 'Fly. The guitar and bass work in TF are awesome!! One of Yes' best riffs. An orchestral arrangement for Cinema would work very well, although I have to admit (being a Howe fan) that it just would not sound the same without Trevor. The guitar style calls for a well sustained, "in your face" sound, which just isn't Howe's style these days. I'd still like to hear it though!!!!

[Mike Park]

Something really interesting that Rick said, either in Yesstories or in his autobiography: How good Drama is, and how important it was, for there would not have been a 90125 without it. And how important 90125 was for a resurgence of Yes and what so many people (aside from us hardcores) perceive as a remarkable comeback for them, to continue on thru the '80's and into the '90s. Ahmet Ertegun of Atlantic Records really laid it on Chris that they HAD to have a hit single or it was over, and that's what happened with 90125.

So I guess people like me find YesPop a little more tolerable, if it kept the suits happy enough to allow the music to continue on to where we are now.

[yesprod]

How bout' "HEARTS".. or is that an Anderson song?:yesbird:

[SilentlyFallingFish]

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I fell for Yes during the Big Generator tour. That whole album and tour was on a grand scale, thematic, and VERY Yes. It had a little of everything.Subsequently, I went out an bought every **** album! :yesbird:
I thought the sound on that album is very innovative and would hold its own against the 70's material.

Geesh, even if they just played a little sippet of Shoot High/Aim Low! Wish in one hand..........

[1yesfan]

This is also when I came into Yes. Even for the Rabin sound era of Yes it was mind blowing how well they played, sounded! Even with the more Rock sound they had then it still was very involved music to my ears. I for one hope we hear more of the rabin era Yes someday. Even if it's Rabin getting back out on the road sometime and playing the stuff.

[Trooper]

SFF,

I thought the Big Generator tour was definitely the best out of the Rabin-only tour era (Union tour was killer!). Trevor played the Yes songs of the 70's more "true" to the Yes sound, while not compromising his own style....fabulous guitar player! I saw that tour at the Forum in Los Angeles. When they played Shoot High, Aim Low, I thought the building was going to cave-in when Squire hit the bass pedals!!! It was unreal! Although Big Generator is not one of my favorite Yes albums, it definitely some great tunes (Rhythm of Love, Shoot High....). I just couldn't get into songs like "Big Generator" or "Almost Like Love"....they just seemed out of character for Jon's singing style...just my opinion.


"...the more you try, the less you fail....."

[1yesfan]

At one time you could find a ton of Boot songs from the Rabin era on NAPSTER. Many of the same songs had diff. openings, or sounds to them from one part of the tour to the next. i feel you don't get that as much these days. Rabin did many diff. opening spots on tunes.

[SilentlyFallingFish]

With 20/20 hindsight, the thing that struck me most about the BG tour was the fact that they did play a variety, although it was heavy on the Rabin. Hearing And you and I for the very first time was a thrill:gok: It was so powerful! Subsequent listenings did give me a finer appreciation for the album version, but I can really see why it's such a live staple. My God, and HOTS! Brilliant! I have that feb '87 Nassau Col. show somewhere on tape.

Off the subject:
1yesfan....
I saw the marque announcing the Radio City Show in the status bar last night and was in complete disbelief. I checked the YesWorld site and Radio City and there was no listing whatsoever. However, tonight I got confirmation. Sorry I ever doubted you.:yesbird:
Great heads up!:cheers:

[1yesfan]

Well I try not to put up anything that is not true. In this case this was from the Radio City web site. Yesworld seems to be slow when it comes to listing things at times.
Next time you had better believe me or your booted from the site, he he...JOKING!

[flyweil2]

We will hear some Rabin era Yes music this tour
This is in the advertisement in the Fraze Pavilion Site
www.fraze.com

Best known for their redefinition of rock music, dubbed "art rock," "classical rock," or "symphonic rock," the Yes Symphonic Tour is a celebration of the band's music, complimented with the talents of the Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra. The show will include many of their biggest hits, including Owner of a Lonely Heart, Roundabout, It Can Happen, Leave It, I've Seen All Good People, and Love Will Find a Way.

I personally look forward to hearing songs from that era.
Cheryl

[1yesfan]

As much as I would LOVE TO HEAR YESWEST tunes, I just can't see them doing all that many. If they do as many as this advert states, there will be a lot of ticked off TROOPER FANS.

[charl8e]

My 1st posting, forgive the emotionality... but if YES use this orchestral tour to revisit the junk of the Rabin years, then it will be a wasted opportunity... i would venture to suggest that Steve Howe's resistance to Rabin and to the music of that period is not some testy, imperious personality trait: it is simply that this music is and was infantile, un-progressive "rock" of the worst radio-friendly kind... and SH didn't join and sustain YES for a quarter of a century in order to make music like that... the whole point of YES music should be to challenge, innovate & surprise, and neither Rabin's compositions nor his guitar playing ever did any such thing... that said, YES have let themselves down in recent years, even with THE LADDER (which i liked) and certainly with OYE (which was appalling), because they have stopped trying to progress... the symphonic moment is a chance to move forward again... if they come out sounding like the Moody Blues or ELO and/or doing lush covers of MOR trash like "Love Will Find A Way" (yuk!!!), then Jon & Co will once again have chipped away at their own (magnificent) legacy... well, i'm a newbie, so apologies in advance to anyone i've offended, but i do believe that if you really, truly love this music (as i do), then you have to be prepared to criticize it, and even the people who make it...

[haroldthebarrel]

That's the way alot of us feel here. You are definitely not a loner!

I posted in the Yesmusic area a post regarding some songs they will be playing.
Check it out.
Joe

[Dragonfly]

Perhaps none of you are aware that Trevor Rabin has a great deal of experience with a conductor's batton. That little snippet on Big Generator was great. :ohhyeah:

What they should've done was hire Trevor to score for the new album and conduct for the new tour (while throwing in the occasional guitar lead). I'll bet he would have been happy to do it.

I would love to have him participate in the writing of the new album. He could do bright, orchestral flouishes to outshine anything Rick's ten fingers could contrive. An ablum and tour like that would be greater than Union (a fine album not deserving of Rick's "Onion" title.):rolleyes:

Dragonfly:yesbird:

[1yesfan]

Welcome to the site Charl8e. It's clear that your dislike the Rabin era, :devil: But that is ok. This site is for ALL yes fans. As much as a fan of WEST era music I woul dagree that they should not do any of it on this upcoming tour and the format that it will be in. Does this mean they should kill any of the West era music in the future, NO! Many fans still like the tunes and I as one of them feel there are many none radio played music well worth playing. Sure I do not want to hear Owner, but I don't want to hear Roundabout either!!! Yes needs to get into the wealth of music that they have. It is just us core fans now, so they need to play the stuff that we want to hear.<br>
:band:

[charl8e]

Well, we agree about one thing at least -- no more Roundabout!!! i wouldn't care if i never heard that song again, to be honest... i'm afraid i am going to fan the flames a bit here, though... you say this site is for ALL YES fans, which i understand... but in all honesty i do not consider the Rabin albums to be YES music, i think those albums should have come out under the name Cinema... sorry! btw, a question: why the term "West"?

[Musicology101]

Ok. I have to put in my 2 cents worth now. First, I'm happy to see a site like this and I want to thank the Admin for the cordial invitation to check it out. He evidently saw a post I made on YesWorld. This is a awesome site and it truly heartens my 37 year old soul to see this strong of a fanbase for one of the most heart enriching bands in the history of music. Now to the point...
There was a period in 1981 when we had lost Yes, seemingly for good. Trevor Rabin and Squire-White were forming a band called Cinema and later on got Kaye and Jon to join. At this time, they called it Yes merely because that name on it would sell more records. It worked. End of story. It did not start out as Yes and really... it doesn't sound much like Yes. It's good though. Steve Howe was pissed that this happened. Why? Because he built a legacy he was immensly proud of and if Yes was to be brought together again, he wanted to be part of it. Who can blame him?
While it was good music, it probably SHOULD have been called Cinama simply because it WASN'T up to Yes standards. It was music made for the radio complete with hooks. I'm not condemning them for it, Hell I went to both tours and loved it but I
was always hoping for the REAL Yes. Now I have it and I don't want to let go. To get the Trevor era back means we lose what we have finally gotten back after so many years. And face it folks, we can't possibly have too many left. I even voted against the orcheastra because I wanted more of the "classic" lineup. Igor won my skeptical ass over (Though Wakeman would have been **** nice). Anyway, I've still got to score some tix to the Chastain show somehow(e). I hope everyone has a "Yes" experience. We need them in this vapid musical landscape now more than ever. Sincerely! George.

[1yesfan]

West, as in Yeswest (Rabin era Yes) and Troopers (Howe era) have been used ( so I have seen ) when talking about the two main Yes era's.
This site is for ALL fans. Fans of ABWH, DRAMA, RABIN, MORAZ, DOWNES which to the whole of yes fans, ALL these members and the time in which they fell into Yes, make up YES. Yes is not just the 70's Yes, it is all of it, some good, some bad. I agree that the Orig yes lineup is great, when i saw the the Masterworks tour I could see why you fans from the 70's like the older Yes. but I am a fan that came aboard in the 80's, and came to like the older Yes also. So to me and many other fans ( I admit, feof us) the Rabin years is as much a part of Yes that any other time would be.

[charl8e]

Thanks for the clarification, i figured YesWest might be an LA ref -- i've also seen Generators used as a description... oh, and i totally get it that we have many, many different views about YES music and its history... but i don't believe that this debate is simply a matter of personal taste... for instance, a band could be changed so utterly (look at Genesis) that one cannot in any real sense talk about its music as one entity... YES is not such a dramatic example, but do you see my point?

[1yesfan]

I see your point, don't agree 100% but I do. Oh well, it's currenlty the ORIG Yes and the sound that was it. I am jsut is happy with it as I would be with a WEST lineup, to me it's all Yes, EVEN DRAMA! :gok:

[charl8e]

Then we agree on 2 things! i quite like DRAMA, too (i'm not a total purist, you see...)

[Trooper]

Whoa, I want to back up a few posts ago regarding Trevor's "Conductor" abilities....

I completely understand Trevor's involvement in scoring Film and TV, and I'm not questioning his talents, but as the quote goes:

"He (Trevor) could do bright, orchestral flouishes to outshine anything Rick's ten fingers could contrive."

Huh?!!? If we're talking in the context of Yes (nevermind Wakeman's solo career), you're saying that Trevor's orchestral snipet at the beginning of "Love Will Find a Way" compares to, let's say, Wakeman's chorale (sp) arrangement in "Awaken"? When Wakeman was in the band, his keyboard parts were basically orchestral arrangements, which is why (IF they do it right) the upcoming tour should be great! In fact, I would say that Wakeman may finally get the credit he deserves for his arranging abilities if the band is able to pull off this tour without sounding like the Boston Pops!!

...just my opinion....

[charl8e]

Well said... and we might also note that the fact that YES-Lite "achieved" a #1 hit and a Grammy (who knew?) says a lot about the nature of awards and charts, and more about the nature of that music than some might care to imagine...

[haroldthebarrel]

Huh?!!? If we're talking in the context of Yes (nevermind Wakeman's solo career), you're saying that Trevor's orchestral snipet at the beginning of "Love Will Find a Way" compares to, let's say, Wakeman's chorale (sp) arrangement in "Awaken"? When Wakeman was in the band, his keyboard parts were basically orchestral arrangements, which is why (IF they do it right) the upcoming tour should be great! In fact, I would say that Wakeman may finally get the credit he deserves for his arranging abilities if the band is able to pull off this tour without sounding like the Boston Pops!!


--I'll add another thing in defense of Wakeman's Orchestral arrangement capabilities!

Nothing in "Remember the Titans" compares to the orchestrations in "Journey to the Center of the Earth" or "Myths and legends of King Aurthur and the Knights of the round table". These are not only 2 of the best Orchestra-Rock albums ever, but full-blown symphonies pretty much...
joe
:dj: :dj:

[Dragonfly]

I'm hearing good support for Rick's work, but no arguments against Trevor's talents.

My original statement could just as easily have been "RICK could do ... flourishes to outshine what HIS OWN ten fingers could contrive." An orchestra has the possibility of many more hands (and brains) in the mix.

My point was to encourage discussion of Trevor as arranger/conductor (and occasional contributor of guitar bits). He's a multi-talented individual. That would be a fun show!

[Musicology101]

I'm going to quote Steve Howe upon hearing Yes was going to get together without him in favor of Trevor Rabin:

"Ugghh".

[Musicology101]

Ok. I know there are a lot of 80's Yes fans out there- my wife included- who has no interest in the lineup and song selections the rest of us are thoroughly enjoying currently. So how about this? The 90120 album was 90% finished before Jon came on board with Trevor Rabin singing. Tony Kaye is probably looking for a steady job. Snag a good bassist and drummer and they could tour singing Trevors hit's of Yes-teryear. He could even have some fun with it and name the band NO!

[1yesfan]

It would be VERY interesting to see Some if not most of the EX yes members get togther and do some the 80's stuff and OTHER YES stuff live also. Maybe see Rabin, Kaye (from what I hear he does not want to play?) Levin, Downes, Moraz, Igor...... ME, I would like to see Rabin, Igor or Tony Kaye, Phil Collins or Carl Palmer, Greg lake. It will never happen, but would be cool. Have them Open for YES!!!

[1yesfan]

That really got my interest. Have a ex Yes member group open for the Current Yes, playing 80's yes and other old stuff that the new Yes does not play. 3.5 hour show between them both! about a

[charl8e]

or, bring together a support slot line-up to play pre-Yes Album YES... Kaye, Banks and Bruford are free(ish)... find one guy to sing and play bass (yes, i guess that would be Greg Lake) and you're sorted... most of the 1st album, with the non-orchestral TAAW tracks ("Astral Traveller" for the encore), and jamming for half an hour on "Midnight Hour"! (I don't even want to think about what i would pay to see that...)
They could call themselves Mabel Greer's Toyshop 2...

[1yesfan]

Greg Lake, he can jon, but can't sing!!! His voice has got TOOO LOW! No range like he used to have!

[rrencko]

Great idea for the Ex-Yes group, but I've seen that Greg lake is touring with Ringo Starr this year. Check his new website at (http://www.greglake.com/) Maybe John Wetton can do the job if he's too not busy with King Crimson.

[smatt]

I know this off topic for this thread, but in reply to last post: This Ringo tour is very interesting! It has Ringo (of course) Greg Lake, Howard Jones, Sheila E, and Rodger Hodgson. This is a great line-up. All of them are very accomplished muscians. They could really put on a great show. I'm going to try to get seats for the show here in LA. There is no onsale date yet though.


Matt

[smatt]

As far as Trevor material ever being played. I doubt it very much. They may pull a song or two out someday. But, unless Trevor decides he wants to play rock star again and tour, and Steve gets bored as well and leaves the group, then I believe the 80's material is on the shelf for good. But you never know, these guys are so unpredictable. One minute they hate each others gutts and are filing lawsuits:fmad: The next its a big lovefest:D. I think what it comes down to for everybody but Trevor is $. It seems that Trevor, Alan, and Steve are the only ones that are financialy stable. Jon and Chris spend it faster than they can make it.



Matt

[charl8e]

Matt, interesting information.. how do you know this?

[wolfehollow]

Trevor is a great musician. Trevor helped Yes out tremendously. Wakeman has more training in his "ten fingers" than Trevor does. Wakeman goes bankrupt to work with Orchestras. Trevor does little work with Orchestras, because keyboards are cheap and don't have attitudes. Trevor is a great musician. Trevor is not YES!! When we talke about 80's yes we say Trevor in the sentence, but 70's Yes was not just one person, it was a group. Trevor is not YES!! Ughh!!

...but he is a great musician, we just need a Trevor Rabin forum.

[charl8e]

Wolfehollow, i agree with everything you say here... except for the bit about Trevor Rabid being a great musician!

[wolfehollow]

Trevor Rabid!!!! Thats great. No disrespect, I just think too many people dont realize how much of the rabin Yes is rabin and not Yes. To me, Yes is JA, SH and CS. When these 3 get together, I normally enjoy the music.

[Trooper]

I'm a HUGE Steve Howe fan, but I don't understand how anybody can say that Trevor is "not a great musician"! I would say he has a lot more talent than any of us in this forum! I know we're all aware of his classical backround, so we know he has the musical foundation (like Wakeman...). The fact that he played in a era of Yes that went "commercial" should not be held against him. In fact, I think "Talk" is more Yes-like than the other albums he was a part of. Is it my favorite era of Yes? No. Is it fair to say he's not a great musician? Absolutely Not!!! Give the man his due.

[wolfehollow]

Trevor is a great musician. He just tricked us into thinking his solo albums were Yes albums.

[charl8e]

I would expect a "great musician" to be able to write an original, meaningful song, or play a guitar solo that it memorable from time to time, or offer up some startling vocal performances... I don't expect a "great musician" to ponce around in tight trousers playing a billion notes a millisecond to no apparent purpose... I don't have anything personal against Rabid, it's just that musically I think he is a hack, a session musician... the fact that he may have more talent than any of us does not make him a "great musician"... and in any case, he may have less than some of us, we don't know... he is a very competent, extremely successful musician... but he will never be a "great" one...

[wolfehollow]

I have heard some live Trevor that sounded awful. Granted I have heard Steve hit a few bad notes also, but Trevor presents himself in a much more "I am the king" way than Steve. I think Spinal Tap is making fun of Trevor Rabin in a few of thier shorts.

[smatt]

In reply to Charle8' ?. It is pretty well known that Jon's financial situation has been rather precarious. He has filed BK in the past and seems to spend rather freely. Chris' lifestyle has been the same to a point although his situation is a little murkier. Alan is and Steve are rather spend thrift and have saved their respective $. Trevor is doing rather well in the soundtrack business.

As for Trevor not being a competant musician. I don't agree with that statement at all. He is an extremly talented guitarist and a pretty **** good keys player to. If he has a short coming I would say that the style of his music is rather, welll commercial pop rock. But thats my opinion only. Just because one doesn't like a particular type of music doesn't mean that the subject person has no musical talent. I like Steve' style better than Trevors true. But to sya that Trevor can't play? HMMM?



Matt

[charl8e]

jeez! will you guys please listen to me? i didn't say he "can't play"... i simply did not say that... i didn't say that we are better musicians than him, or that he has terrible taste in clothes, or that he eats babies for breakfast... what i DID say is this: he is not a "great musician"... i'm not talking about genre, either... there are many, many great pop musicians, but he isn't one of them... wake up at the back, there!!

[1yesfan]

What is your Definition of a Great Musician Charlie???

[1yesfan]

"I don't expect a "great musician" to ponce around in tight trousers playing a billion notes a millisecond "

Man, Chris in his Spandex is not ANY BETTER then tight jeans, and Chris, even at his current age BOUNCES around a lot himself. Look at the UNION Video, last show of the tour, the japan release, Rabin does not move around that much!!!! Chris also can play a lot of notes in a millisecond also! Come up with another one, this one doesn't float with me :D

[wolfehollow]

Spandex is just an outer sign of a cock rocker. There are exceptions, and Chris is one of them.

[smatt]

OK Charl8e, I understand you didn't mean to imply that he can't play. But I do think he is at the very least a very good guitar to excellent guitar player. You are right that he does hjave a tendency to play "to many notes" (I love this line from the movie "Amedeus") (sp.) without feeling. Aimless noodling I think is the word. In that regard I would rank him up their with Patrick Moraz. There are many other more succesful musicians that can't play a lick. But with this discussion we are going into the realm of personal preferances. I mean if you want my true opinion none of the current or former members of Yes are the greatest on their respective instruments, all very talented but on strictly a technical basis there are better. I think with these guys not only are they really good, but it's also the way they play. With true feeling. Trevor somtimes tends to float off of that plain, but he does attain it at times.


I didn't mean to put words on your fingers. I just read a little to fast!


Matt

[charl8e]

Patrick Moraz is, in my estimation, a "great musician" because even if he never did anything else in his entire life, his work on Relayer is extraordinary and it actually advanced the music of YES (which really is, after CTTE and TFTO, quite a significant achievement)... TR and his "aimless doodling" never got close to that... i think that i already provided my definition of a "great musician"... someone whose compositional skills, or ability on an instrument, or via the voice, extends our understanding of music in some new way... Rabid cannot do that, has never done it, and i notice that his defenders do not argue that he HAS... you guys simply say that Chris Squire wore tight pants too (fair comment, but he also was the bass player who took popular music and bass playing into new territory, he made "Starship Trooper" happen, he combined the funk of James Brown with the complexity of symphonic construction, so his trousers don't matter... Chris can be any kind of a-hole he likes, because he has already done the business, established his "greatness"... who can disagree with that?)... Rabid, on the other hand is a spandex merchant with nothing to say, whose contribution to one of the greatest rock bands of all time was to actually DIMINISH their music by turning it into mindless AOR pap... a man who when confronted with a superb piece of music like "And You And I" attempted to make it sound like Rush jamming with Spinal Tap... i rest my case in the firm knowledge that even Rabid's supporters agree with me... it's just that you like the Cinema albums, which is a question of taste, and perfectly fine, but you feel the need to say he's a "great" musician, when in fact you know full well that he isn't... and here's the proof... if Tight Trousered Trev had joined YES in 1971, playing the kind of garbage that he apparently considers to be music, would YES have ever made CTTE? I think that the answer to that question is obvious...

[1yesfan]

I guess we will have to disagree on this one. But I must say some things :mad: ha ha ha ha. If he had joined Yes in 71 it would have jsut meant a diff kind of Yes, does that mean a lousy Yes, I do not think so. The Rabin haters say he is nothing new, that he has done nothing different, just a Van Halen want to be and maybe so, but like many folks in todays music, there are nto many NEW things you can do to make your mark, this is not the late 60's/70's anymore where the music industry was wide open. PERHAPS if he had came along back in the early 70's he would have been something to then. I will agree he is not GOD at the guitar, but he is pretty **** good at it in his style, you may not like it, but that does not make him what many TROOPERS see him as. Through the years via numerous Yes sites, mailing lists there has been numerous talks about him and the MANY good musicians and groups that have wanted Trevor in the fold. Now we have him doing movie sound tracks, working with Rick Wakeman a little, tell me he is not good and I have to say :nono:

[ronw]

I think the question should be would Jon be in the band had Rabin joined in 71, doubt it. Yes isn't Yes without Jon. Although I enjoy the Trevor era I don't think Jon would have continued with that type of music, especially not now.

[1yesfan]

True, Jon would have not wanted him in 71, his style in the 80's was nothing like Yes of 71 or even the 70's over all. Thing is so many folks think all Rabin did was the 90125 type of stuff w/Yes. What about Talk? Sure it was not CTTE, NOTHING ever will be, but it was a good album that was way better then 90125 which was way back in the beginning of his career. Talk showed a lot of growing, getting to some older Yes flavor while keeping a up to date sound. Given mroe time I think it could have got even better.

[charl8e]

Tim, you know i was ranting a bit just for the fun of it, although i'm serious too i suppose... but fair comment from you, i think, that TR had less scope for innovation in the 1980s than YES had in the 1970s... i see your point there...

[wolfehollow]

Talk was nice, for a Trevor Rabin album. Back to my point...

We talk about the Yes with Trevor in it when it should be the Trevor album with Yes backing him up.

We don't ever talk about the Peter Yes, but he did just one album less than Trev did.

Trevor used Yes and Yes used Trevor, neither group would be doing what they are nowadays without the other.

But... I think we would have heard from the core Yes guys before Trevor would have made a name for himself.

Proof... Steve was not losing money in Asia, they were popular. Rick was on his 15th? solo record. Bill Bruford was playing with everyone around that time.

Now to the soundtrack business. Trevor does a great job with that, but there are even lesser musicains with that job, so don't hold a soundtracker too high on the "great musician" list. You dont have to be a great musician to hold a note on a keyboard.

[1yesfan]

Originally posted by charl8e
Tim, you know i was ranting a bit just for the fun of it, although i'm serious too i suppose... but fair comment from you, i think, that TR had less scope for innovation in the 1980s than YES had in the 1970s... i see your point there...


I can agree. But I must say that the 70's in general for most any music that we lsiten too is way more innovative then the 80's or even now. I can't see us ever seeing another decade like the 70's.

PS. One more thing. A lot of Rambo, I mean Rabin haters/less then found of him folks always say in so many words say the same thing we are saying about Rabin in this thread. That he is not this, or not that. I must ask then WHY or What did Chris, and Alan see in him other then a Top 40 hit, that kept him around for so many years, and even today guys in the band and ex members have said on occasion they would like to work with him agian (Howe excluded, ha ha ha)

[charl8e]

You've answered your own question: what did YES see in Rabid? A top 40 hit (they'd been told they HAD to find one) and a record deal... end of story... but of course it wasn't quite that cynical, because the band was really Cinema, should be called Cinema, and IS Cinema! only by a quirk of contractual dealings did this band come to pretend that it was YES... which answers the question about why we talk about Trev's YES and not Tony Kaye's or Alan White's YES... because it was Trev, not YES... even without Jon on Drama they still sound like YES... case closed!

[wolfehollow]

Not that I want to damper things, but there were some heavy drugs being used by mentioned bass player that may acount for the reasonings behind keeping Trevor. Trevor did all the work and made it easy for the other guys to get a pay check when money was dwindling. That is way they kept him around.

[charl8e]

Wolfehollow, tell us more!

[wolfehollow]

Yes spent about 3 weeks in my home town rehearsing Union, so I heard many, many, many stories from my musician friends who saw them out and about. Plus, Rabin had a friend who lived here, that is why they always came through my small town. I just think he made it easy on them, new guy comes in, writes all the songs, makes me alot of money, I would stick with him too.

[1yesfan]

Good try folks! The Bass player was drunk, friends in small towns.......

[wolfehollow]

No, No... I said Trevor always brought the tour to my small town because he had a friend who lived here.

The answer to the "why did jon and chris keep trevor around" is......

Large bills and no money to pay them.

[smatt]

In reply to Charl8e's big rant! :eek: I understand what you are saying Charl8e, but I really don't think anybody here called Rabin a great musician, a good one yes but a great one. I think not. IMHO, really the only great musicians in Yes have been Steve and Chris and those are maybes. Better than average or very good yes but great? Chris was really the only innovator, going places that hadn't been visited on the bass guitar before. But Steve, he just brought various different styles of playing into rock. Rick, well he is a good keyboard player and if you compare him to other rock keyboardists he's awesome. But when you complare him to classical pianists he really doesn't stand up. As for Jon, well, he's unique. Alan, very good drummer.

My point is is that everybody that has ever been in the band have been at the very least better than average musicians. They have also creative some very good music together but it is purely a subjective question, as to whether or not any of them are truly GREAT!



Matt
(33 days to the first show I'm seeing)

[charl8e]

Actually, somebody DID describe Rabin as a "great" musician, which is why i went off like that... i would add Bruford to your list of greats, too... because in addition to extraordinary technical skill (for a rock musician) he was an innovator... i don't believe that this is all subjective, and i won't be surprised if i find myself in a minority of one on that question... questions of taste are subjective (i like olives, you don't; i like public enemy, s/he doesn't) but questions of judgement can also be made -- i understand that Bob Dylan is a great artist, even though i don't enjoy his music; i like the spice girls, but i don't think they are great musicians -- and as i've said now several times, i think that what most people really mean by greatness is not technical ability but some fresh perspective, a new voice... of course in other fields a musician can be "great" without being original, but since the whole idea of progressive rock was that it should go forward, then i expect that from a musician in a prog rock band.. hence, chris and jon (as you say) are for sure in the pantheon, i reckon steve is, too, and also bill... rick, i'm not so sure about (there is something not quite grown up about him and the way he plays)... as for the rest, they were in the right place at the right time... however, as you point out, making music is a team game, and so it's maybe off the mark to assess individual players (unlike jazz and classical music)... i mostly agree with you, in fact... really, i was just replying to the absurd suggestion that Trev is a "great" musician!

[smatt]

So I see that we are really both on the same page. I did not mean to imply that they, as a group have not had an impact on music. During the mid-seventies, they certainly had a significant influence on many people/ musicians. They are all, at the very least far betterthan average musicians. But I still questions whether any are great. I guess it all depends on what or who you consider a great musician. You do outline your critiera as somone who redifines musical terms(i.e.going somplace others have not tread). This, I don't disagree with. Somtimes people equate commercial success with greatness. In some cases this may be true, due to exposure, they tend to have alot of influence on the future shaping of musical trends. On the other hand, obscurity is often a better road for a truly influential musician to take. This allows him/her/them to play/write/perform the music in its pure form and not in the form of what the record company/fans /radio want or expect. This is my major critizism of Rabin era Yes. They were, at the time driven by commercialism. Again, though, some do overcome, and manage to create good music, while conforming to the machine.

As for Bruford, I didn't mean to imp[ly that he's not a competant drummer, on the contrary, he's imho a more infuencial drummer than White is. Bettter for Yes? I don't know, I've seen them both with the band and really prefer White. But Bruford is more innovative, there is no question about that. Could you imagine White in Crimson?

Matt

[Trooper]

O.K.....So who DO you consider to be "great musicians" if these guys are just "better than average"?

[haroldthebarrel]

I don't know....I listen to a s h i t load of music featuring virtuosos and such, and have only found a few people I belive to be technically better or up with Howe. It seems all the best musicians I have ever heard of have been with Yes, or a member of the band in some other project. All the greatest rock musicians ever are the Yesmen and their friends (select friends).
Joe

[Trooper]

I'm with ya, Joe. My own opinion is that it really depends on genre and musical context. A cop-out answer, yeah probably! Besides, if I didn't think these guys were great musicians, why would I be at a site that promotes them? In my book, these guys ROCK, and in the context of rock n roll, I have yet to hear better MUSICIANS! ....just my humble opinion.


"...you say I'm a fool, a believer, but your feet on the earth, it is green...."

[bataisflow]

See the thing is....

When Yes broke up after Drama - that was supposed to be it and should have been (that is until the members that made Yes - Yes were back in it).

Squire and White were looking for a cool project - they were given two names Jimmy Page and Rabins. They played with J. Page for a while in a band that was supposed to be called XYZ (x - Yes - Zeppelin). Well that didn't fly 'cause (in Chris' words) Jimmy couldn't play a lick. They end up going with Rabin (we all know the rest). The point is that it was not supposed to be Yes. Enter Jon - looking to get back out there - jammin' etc.... he heard the stuff and loved it - it became Yes. In hindsight Jon probably thought (after two albums) sh*t this isn't Yes, it's good, but it's not Yes - so he formed ABWH (which for a lot of us was the first real Yes we had seen). Rabin era Yes isn't bad it just is not what a majority of "Yes heads" wanted to hear from the sickest band that ever walked the planet. The point is that Rabin era stuff was just a chance for members of yes to get out there and play. It ended up being called Yes - but that doesn't mean that it is. I still listen to Rabin era stuff - but I'd rather hear ABWH or the Ladder or Keys way before because to me that is Yes.

[Trooper]

YES to me is Anderson/Howe/Squire/Wakeman/White...would have liked to have heard more with Geoff Downes...Igor was nice....I do like Bruford (thought his solo albums of the late 70's were great, along with UK). Agreed on the assement of Rabin...it filled the void and we got to see them tour....but not my favorite lineup.

[bataisflow]

Yeah - I was jsut talking about post Rabin or just prior to Rabin stuff that I would rather hear. To be sure my favorite lineup is Jon/Chris/Steve/Wakeman/Bruford or White - although I do like Brufords style better. Once Bruford left most of the jazz influence left as well.

[1yesfan]

Lets look at the big picture here kids. We have 35 years of Yes music now. THANK GOD FOR THAT! It spans many years and versions of Yes, different line-ups and diff sounds. I for one am real glad there were all diff types of sounds from them, diff members, diff. experiments that were good and bad based on ones tastes. Lets enjoy it all and be greatfull for what we have been given to the pleasure to enjoy.

[smatt]

In reply to Trooper:

I think you took my cooments wrong. I said that they were far above average. Are they *GREAT*? I don't think that can be decided yet. That's my opinion, if you want a few that I think can be classified as *GREAT* how about Segovia, Buddy Rich, Louie Belson, Stanley Clark, Percy Jones. Maybe a little older? Bach, Mozart, Rachmaninov. It all depends on what you consider great. Some people like oranges, some like apples. I said they are all very good, great, I just can't say that yet, get back to me in about 20 years. I've followed these guys for 25 years, I've seen every single show they've played in the Los Angeles are since 1977 (save for 1 ladder tour show). They are in fact my favorite band. I've seen many, many, many bands live of all different styles and tastes. Have I seen musicians perform better than than the guys in Yes? Yes I have. Are ther very many of those? No. But, they are not the best, that is my opinion though. This is very subjective. Case in point-Batman can beat up spiderman.

I think you took my post the wrong way, I wasn't dissing these guys, but I don't think they're gods either.


Matt

[Trooper]

In reply to smatt:

It's cool, no worries man!

The musicians and composers you list: no arguement there! The jazz artists alone that you list are only the tip of the 'berg!! I guess I'm ready to give these guys the "great" status 20 years earlier than you, that's all. I too have followed these guys for many years (since 1974). Have I seen and heard some clunkers by these guys...you bet! I swore after the "Talk" show in LA that I would never see them again...that's how disappointed I was (of course, when Howe rejoined, all bets were off!!). In my weak, "cop-out" arguement, it really depends on genre, style and personal taste. It's like asking, "who's the greatest Blues player?" I'm sure lot's of people would say it's BB or Clapton (when he's playing the blues!) or Buddy Guy or Robert Johnson....it's all a matter of taste and it's very subjective, as you've pointed out (by the way, my money's on Spiderman...). I would never label any musician (or anybody, for that matter) as "gods", but for my musical tastes, I will label them as "great" because for me, nobody is better in rock n roll (everybody has to have a favorite, right?!!?). Besides, given the caliber of musicians that they are, I feel pretty comfortable in calling them "great".

Only on a Yes Fans site would we have an arguement about "good" vs "great"!!! I guess we think these guys are something special! (either that, or we have too much time on our hands!!!)

Rock on.....

[freissig]

Rabin helped YES get back on its feet in the 80's and I am thankful to him for that, but I think all of the music from that era is not orchestral. Therefore I don't think we should see any of that music on the coming tour.

[Moongate Climber]

It seems the only people defending the Rabin era in this thread are the ones who became Yes fans during that period, so I'm adding my 2 cents... I first heard Yes in 1972. The album was Fragile. I was 12 years old and bought Close To The Edge as soon as I had saved up enough of my allowance! By the time I finished listening to CTTE for the 3rd time, Yes had replaced ELP as my favorite band. My first Yes Concert was at the Seattle Center Arena, during the (amazing) Relayer tour. Obviously, I am not a newer Yes fan.

I love every single Yes album and have never heard a Yes song I didn't like. CTTE is still my all-time favorite, with Tales running a close second, and Awaken is one of my favorite songs. Although it's not my favorite Yes era, I thoroughly enjoyed the Rabin-era. Calling it "Yes Lite" is in my opinion, being so anti-pop, that you're closing your ears and refusing to listen to Yes proving that once again, any style of music they choose to play will be done with more sophistication than practically any other band.

Listen to some of the unexpected rests and accelerations in the song Big Generator. Check out the essence of "classic yes" in the most extended piece on Talk, Endless Dream. Talk was pretty much Rabin's baby and although it does include some commercially oriented pop, like Lift Me Up, there is no way you can accurately say that Endless Dream is a pop song! It's much more orchestral than what someone who only listens to pop could ever accept.

Okay, I'll concede that Love Will Find A Way is a long, long way from being as progressive or creative as say, "The Ancient" or "Sound Chaser". The comparison makes me laugh, and does leave LWFAW sounding simple and sappy, but I still like it. One of the things I've always loved about Yes is that they've never been afraid to play stuff that's too chaotic, too complex or even too tender for a typical "rock" audience to appreciate. Along with their more tender side, go some beautiful melodies. Personally, I love musical styles ranging from Stravinsky to Van Halen and Weather Report to Elton John, so my question to all you anti-pop people is: what's wrong with pop hooks? They hook you, because they're pretty or catchy melodies. As long as you don't have to live on a steady diet of it, what's wrong with that?

Yes definitely took an unprecedented pop approach during the Rabin years, but it was the best **** pop I ever heard!

[Dragonfly]

I agree with Moongate Climber. The Rabin years were very good - if not quite the best. I'm definitely more of Trooper than Generator (unless there's a category for fans of the AB(L)WH/Union era: "Water Takers"? "Fire Fisters"?)

I'm reminded of the fact the in the Beatles catalogue, the most hard and heavy, raunchy tune, "Helter Skelter", was written by the one generally considered to be the love song god: Paul. In the Yes catalogue one of (if not exactly the) most progressive tunes was a Trevor Rabin tune: "I'm Running."

Once 90125 happened and Trevor accepted that "his" band was now Yes, he did try to work with that in mind. He could never write like Steve (nor should he have) but he was very open to changes in structure, rhythm and tempo. I rarely hear "Owner of a Lonely Heart" but when I do I can even see that his own material (which that certainly was) contained very "progressive" elements. When was the last time a die-hard Trooper sat and really listened to the studio version of that song?

Trevor doesn't need us to "approve" of him or not. If the current line-up ever falls apart (and I hope it never does) I would be first in line to buy tickets with a reformed Rabin-era group.

Dragonfly:yesbird:

"The challenge is to chase the sounds just to break away"

[Moongate Climber]

Correction to my last post: Lift Me UP was on Union, not Talk. OOPS! Duh. Union was interesting because it combined the Rabin-era Yes with so many other influences. I wonder how Bruford felt about playing with Trevor (heh, heh).

I agree with many others in this thread: I think the ultimate Yes lineup is Anderson, Squire, Howe, Wakeman and White (or Bruford -- I'm happy with either of them). However, I've been a little disappointed in recent years with the soloing of Howe and Wakeman. I still think they write very creatively, but their solos tend to meander somewhat aimlessly at times. It seems like Howe hasn't had as much focus ever since the first time he left the band. Maybe the experience of being in Asia scarred him for life! Man, if you want to talk about the Rabin-era Yes lacking any kind of progressive statement, just compare it to Asia. It's like comparing Pink Floyd to Winger!

One thing I can't figure out: why do so many people in this thread act like ABWH was so great? It has some really cool moments, but wasn't much more progressive than the Rabin stuff, IMHO. I said in my last post that I have never heard a Yes song I haven't liked. I have heard an ABWH song I didn't like: "Bobby Dred (sp?) and the Cool Running" or whatever it's called. You know, the one with the riff that's a TOTAL ripoff of George Benson's "Broadway"? Every time I hear that, I keep wondering... what in the heck were they thinking??!! I'll take "I'm Running" over that any day!

[Dragonfly]

If Moongate Climber didn't like "Teakbois" what reaction did "Lighting Strikes" get? They're two sides of the same coin.

Personally, of the two, I think "Teakbois" is the stronger.

Dragonfly:yesbird:

"This summer you couldn't get it. This summer you couldn't get it."

[smatt]

After a few years of listening I think that The Ladder is certainly a another rung of the ABWH thing. The song structure and the style seem to be in direct line with ABWH. Although a careful listen will give the listener the true brillance of Squire's bass prowess!


Matt

[Moongate Climber]

I can appreciate what Dragonfly and Smatt are saying about the compositional structure being similar on ABWH and The Ladder. Now that Dragonfly reminds me of the correct title "Teakbois", I remember I didn't dislike the whole song, just the George Benson ripoff. They may have considered it to be an instrumental allusion to Benson to make some kind of statement or be humorous, but it struck me as weak for such an otherwise progressive band. Personally, I thought "Lightning Strikes" was more exciting, but I can agree that it sets a similarly playful, exuberant mood. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

I'm not saying ABWH was bad. I loved "Order of the Universe", but didn't feel it was all that progressive. Although the title escapes me at the moment, the song about Aborigines being "blasted by the silver cloud" (nuclear "testing" in Australia) was the strongest political statement I've ever heard from Jon, as well as musically very exciting. I thought it was one of the more progressive moments on the album.

I really wasn't trying to put down ABWH in general. I was merely pointing out that overall, it wasn't much more progressive than the Rabin-era Yes, if at all. They both have their progressive moments and predictable moments. I thought even though Union had some very straightforward pop/rock, overall, it was a bit more progressive than either ABWH or the Rabin stuff that didn't have Howe as well. The coolest thing was getting to hear White and Bruford together! I also think Tony Levin is a great bassist, but Squire inspired me to start playing bass 20 years ago and he'll always be my favorite.

[bataisflow]

RE: Monngate Climber - One thing I can't figure out: why do so many people in this thread act like ABWH was so great? It has some really cool moments, but wasn't much more progressive than the Rabin stuff...

That is a ridiculous statement. Are you a musician? THe ABWH stuff is ten times more progressive than Rabin Yes - not that it is really a matter of concern but the ABWH stuff incorporated Classical, jazz, carribean, african elements along with time changes - orchestral instruments...man are you kidding?

[Dragonfly]

I think neither AB(L)WH nor "Yes West" were nearly as progressive as pre-Rabin Yes. In fact, the last album that really came across as fully progressive, to me, was TORMATO; the last in a line of great albums.

Rabin did get progressive in several specific areas. The most obvious example is "I'm Running." But even "Owner of a Lonely Heart" is much more dynamic and experimental than if someone like Duran Duran or The Police did it.

As for the 80's and 90's material, KEYS TO ASCENTION may have its moments but, again, nothing like the albums up through TORMATO. THE LADDER does have moments of prog such as the breaks at the end of "New Languages".

I have to say, having just got back from the concert at Konocti Harbor, I'm not expecting much in the way of prog on MAGNIFICATION. I think it'll be O.K., but no RELAYER. (Not that they could ever top that one!)

Dragonfly:yesbird:

Faster moment spent spread tales of change within the sound...

[charl8e]

It would be an interesting exercise to put together a CD of post-Tormato tracks that best reflected the music of YES... new compositions only... mine would include nothing from the Rabid years at all... not a minute, nor a second, not so much as a 1 or a 0 from that horrid fiasco... but i'd find space for Homeworld, New Language and also Nine Voices... plus some of ABWH... maybe a track or two from Drama... if the new material were available i'm pretty sure i'd include In The Presence Of... but i'd be hard pressed to find a reason to dip into Keys i must say... well, perhaps i will engage in that very exercise later tonight, it would be fun to consider how to sequence it, don't you think?

[HOWERU]

I must admit I do prefer the Howe lineup to the Rabin one. However, I still do enjoy quite a bit of the Rabin stuff. I think when Rabin came along in the 80's the music world was no longer interested in hearing long progressive epics anymore. I believe there was much more focus on main stream musical tastes. I don't think Rabin as well as Yes should be knocked for their style change, it was just a changing of the times. Keep in mind, this also holds true with Steve Howe when he began with Asia in 82. His style is much more typical of commerical music on the first Asia album, like the power chords on Heat of the Moment for instance. I think Asia's 1st album is much more commerical than 90125. Music does have various cycles. Over the past several years there seems to be a revisit to music of the 70's. I hear a lot more classic rock stations popping up these days on the east coast as well as the playing of the 70's disco thing (Still beats the s--t out of todays rap although I can't stand it). Who knows, maybe the music world is ready again for new Yes epics. With Yes music and all music I just try to keep an open mind. If I like what I hear than I like it. I don't try to put labels or categories on whether something is progressive or not. So what if a Yes song has hooks. Some of the classic material had some as well. Rabin is a talented guy. I thought the Talk tour was great. By the way, I've been listening to Yes since 74.

[HOWERU]

Just an after thought regarding Asia on my last post. Not only was the music very commercial but I also think that some of the lyrics were pretty cheezy as well on the 1st album. "A look from you and I would fall from grace and that we wipe a smile from my face" or something to that affect. Pretty uninsipiring if you ask me. The Rabin era Yes often gets knocked for lousy lyrics. It doesn't get much worse than the one mentioned above and Steve Howe was involved with this, although I'm not sure if he had anything to do with the writing on this song. Any thoughts?

[Moongate Climber]

I agree that Asia was superficial, both lyrically and compositionally. I remember an interview with Howe at the time, in which he said it was refreshing to break free of some of the unwritten rules in Yes. For example: you weren't allowed to play power chords. He also felt at the time that Yes had been extremely self-indulgent in it's use of echo. Howe seemed to be having fun and was quite enthusiastic about his foray into an unabashedly commercial approach to music, which would support HOWERU's comments about music going through cycles.

In regard to bataisflow's assertion that my saying ABWH wasn't much more progressive than the Rabin stuff was a "ridiculous statement" and the condescendingly placed question that followed: "are you a musician?"... Yes, bataisflow, I have been a musician for 30 years and have learned to grasp that "progressive" music is not necessarily more complex or influenced by more genres than other music, but rather, represents a new direction compared to the mainstream of the time. For example, "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols" was a much more significant album than Genesis' "We Can't Dance", even though the members of Genesis are VASTLY more competent musicians.

During the 70s, the fact that the music of Yes was extremely complex and encompassed many genres represented a new, progressive direction in "rock" music. ABWH just sounded to me like a less inspired rehash of the same style Yes has brought to many pieces of music in the past -- with a little carribean and african influence thrown in (as opposed to seamlessly integrated into). The Rabin-era Yes on the other hand, brought us something we really haven't heard before: Yes playing a significant amount of pop music. In my opinion, in true Yes fashion, they approached pop music quite differently than other pop bands and tried things that no other pop band would dare try. So regardless of ABWH's diverse elements and orchestral intruments, I felt that Yes' approach to pop was more progressive than ABWH's approach to rehashing Yesteryears with a sprinkling of new influences.

Let's face it: neither ABWH nor RabinYes was anywhere near as progressive as Relayer, CTTE or Tales, so all we can do is look for the bright spots. By the way, bataisflow, Rabin incorporated a lot of time changes into his songs too, but I guess you didn't notice. Are you a musician? (Try listening to Ravel's Bolero some time -- not too many time changes in that piece. I guess that means it's inferior music?)

[hoopdawg1]

i heard somewhere yes has 30 albums and 30 million in sales. accurate? any count on how many from the four? rabin influenced albums? union sales? tia

[smatt]

Originally posted by hoopdawg1
i heard somewhere yes has 30 albums and 30 million in sales. accurate? any count on how many from the four? rabin influenced albums? union sales? tia

There is a web page that has these facts on them. I'll track it down for you. Also, I believe that billboard has it's own website that would be a good place to check. Maybe just try Yahoo and search for album,sales, charts.

The thirty million sounds familar for some reason. Yes has released 22 official albums. I won

Yes, Time and a Word, The Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Yessongs (live), Tales from Topographic Oceans, Yesterdays, Relayer, Going for the One, Tormato, Yesshows (live), Drama, 90125, Big Generator, Yesstories (boxset compilation), Union, Talk, Keys to Ascention 1, Key to Ascention 2, Open You Eyes, and The Ladder. Also there are 3 or 4 other compilation albums with just different hits on them. There was also an abbreviated 2 cd boxset released with just selected tracks off of Yesstories.

Hope this helps, I'll track that page down and list the URL here.


Matt


Matt

[Robert Shupe]

Smatt, do you think 9012Live - The Solos should be counted as an official release. Although not the caliber of Yessongs or Yessongs, it was a good example of the sound at the time. It is hard to find on CD but it can still be found as a pricy Japanese Import.

Robert Shupe

[1yesfan]

I would think the Solo's album would count! Along with that and Yessongs, those were the two that got it all started for me!

[charl8e]

Can't say i'm a big Asia expert, although i did catch some horrid stuff on MTV... surely the point here is that they did not christen this sonic abomination "YES"?

[hoopdawg1]

thanx matt, i would be interested in analyzing the rabin era album/cd sales vrs. the previous albums. i think the rabin era helped translate into more exposure and ultimately new fans and more sales down the road for yes as a whole as a result. i can remember jon saying that when trevor came on board it was the first times they had young girls in the audience at the front. no doubt the timing of mtv at the height of 90125 also helped give the rabin era more sales volume if in fact there were more album/cd sales. not wanting to ruffle any classic yesfans as many of us became tuned in to yes in the early 70's hearing steve howe's slide guitar in "and you and i " and probably thought it was rick wakemman or a synthesizer i like to say, "i missed bach and beethoven but i've seen yes 8 times!"

[smatt]

Originally posted by Robert Shupe
Smatt, do you think 9012Live - The Solos should be counted as an official release. Although not the caliber of Yessongs or Yessongs, it was a good example of the sound at the time. It is hard to find on CD but it can still be found as a pricy Japanese Import.

Robert Shupe


DOH!:eek:

You're right Robert, I forgot that one. But, I do noknow why I forgot it, it was more like a bootleg than anything the quality is about as good as Yesshows, but the it also doesn't have the songs that Yesshows has. So it gets really low marks. But never the less is an official release. i shall edit my post now.


Matt

[charl8e]

I think we can be grateful for the Rabid Years, because it kept YES going. It's a Faustian bargain, though... rather like a Communist being grateful for the Hitler-Stalin pact.

[hoopdawg1]

charl8e - is it obiously the sound you don't like? while the rabin era didn't have the epic masterpieces, have you listened to endless dream? it takes you up and down and up and down....
just wondering. i think the lyrics are much more openly spiritual possibly to even a religious tone, especially talk, notice that? or am i way out there. anyways just shooting from the hip.

[charl8e]

No, i've not heard Endless Dream, which i believe is on that Cinema album entitled Talk... still, many of you reckon it's a fine CD, so perhaps i should give it a listen...

[smatt]

90125 was Yes' only #1 album, Owner was their only #1 hit. I believe it went 5X platinium. I still haven't had a chance to track down that sales site. Of course the Rabin years kept them going. They made buckets of money the first 5 or so years that Rabin was in the band. Despite Charl8e derision of Rabin, there were a few quality songs there. Although the commercialism of them is obvious. I like a lot of different kind of music including commercial music of some sorts. I even liked the first Asia album (at lest most of it). Endless dream is a great song, CTTE, Awaken, Gates, no but a good song in it's own right. It must be noted that Talk was written by Rabin and Anderson in it's entirety. Squire, White, and Kaye had almost nothing to do with it. There is even rumor that most of the bass on the album was Rabin as well, but this has never been substantiated. I personally do not care who plays music, I listen, if I like, then I listen more.


Matt

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by smatt
...I even liked the first Asia album (at least most of it)...Matt

The reason I went and bought it on CD was "Time Again". Though it's a rather agressive song it contains the most progressive sequence of any Asia tune I've heard. There are instrumental breaks where Steve and Geoff do these funky, angular little fills and slides that I just can never hear enough of.

Dragonfly:yesbird:

"Want for nothing, but is nothing what you need"

[deepsouth]

I enjoyed many of the rabin era pieces.In particular,"I'm Running"and"I Am Waiting"stand out,if memory serves correctly.According to interviews from that time,it was Trevor who nixed keeping Steve and Rick onboard after "Union".I don't know about Bill.That was a big disappointment at the time,tho' now I don't know how it could have worked.

[bataisflow]

Thought you guys would get a kick out of this - from the Rabin Website:


Q: to Rabin - Have you checked out any of the homepages dedicated to your work or news groups about yourself or Yes? How do you feel about all that endless bickering between fans of the Howe vs. Rabin variety?


A - From Rabin - Periodically. I feel the Rabin fans are correct.


Q: To Rabin - Would you ever consider working with Steve Howe and releasing a CD together?

A - From Rabin - Our styles are incompatable. I don't believe that will happen.

Moongate Climber - I didn't mean to offend - I was probably drunk at the time - haha

[hoopdawg1]

charl8e - yeah give it a listen, and on the other side is a really rocking song called new state of play. i thought berkeley was the center of the open mind of the world?.... :>)
deepsouth - in what order was "union" in relation to the rabin era releases? was talk after union? tia

[1yesfan]

90125, Big Generator were Rabin Yes, Union was all the guys and Talk was Rabin, his last album w/them. All in that order!

[Moongate Climber]

bataisflow: No worries, I tend to take things too seriously sometimes. The quotes from Rabin's website were a trip. He really sounds like an ego-inflated jerk. Very dissappointing. The thing I enjoyed most about the Rabin years was hearing Jon get away with his unique voice and lyrics in the context of more commercial music than Yes had played before. How many times have you heard a number one album with lyrics like "Be ready now, be ye circle/Be the central force ye life/As the game extends the cycle/Be ready to move"? What a wake-up call for all those 80s MTV viewers who were used to Michael Jackson, Cyndi Lauper and Wham! I love it!

[bataisflow]

MoonGate: Yeah don't get me wrong - I don't hate the Rabin Stuff - I just don't prefer it. I still listen to it. I agree with you it was awesome to see Yes on-top of the world back then. I just always wished they did it with the original cast - that's all. I read the other day that Wonderous Stories was a top 10 hit in '78 - has anyone else heard that? I also read that ABWH sold a million albums and Union sold over 2 Million.

[Dragonfly]

I believe that "Wonderous Stories" was a hit in the U.K. and Europe. (I doubt we Americans gave it much attention. Pity.)

1yesfan wrote "90125 , Big Generator were Rabin Yes, Union was all the guys and Talk was Rabin, his last album w/them. All in that order!"

One correction, while "all the guys" did appear on UNION, their appearance was only on the disc. The YesWest and YesEast factions never met in the studio. There are four songs by the YesWest group, "Lift Me Up", "Saving My Heart", "The More We Live Let Go" (which is really a Billy Sherwood/Chris Squire tune) and "Miracle of Life" All of the others were Andeson Bruford Levin Wakeman and Howe. The only difference, again, is that Jon did vocals for the YesWest tunes and Chris added some backing vocals to a few of the YesEast tunes.

The only point that confuses me is the backing drum track to "Lift Me Up". Bill Bruford doesn't get any credit for it but he clearly played it on the tour. Bill himself provides evidence of that on the YesYears rockumentary when he shows the camera his drum kit and the computer hooked up to it. He sets the screen for "Lift Me Up" and plays that drum line to show how it all works.

:drummer:
Here's my confusion:

(1) Either, Bill's drum line was, in fact, added to the YesWest track while still in the studio or (2) it was Alan in the studio and Bill just did it on stage (there's another, fuller drum line that Alan would have been too busy with to play the backing drum line.)

While scenario (1) seems unlikely - as the two groups were, reportedly, never together in the studio - scenario (2) seems even less likely as Alan's set up does use those sounds and Bill's does. And, more specifically, it doesn't sound like anything Alan would write but does sound very much like something Bill would.

Does anyone know the answer to this riddle?

Dragonfly:yesbird:

Open doors - They may be closed to me; The fire's still burning in my heart...

[SilentlyFallingFish]

One of the biggest criticisms I have of Yes over the past ten years (apart from the fact that it's been a productive decade for the band) is the fact that their lineups are so short lived. The band members themselves have some incredible ideas floating around all the time. Unfortunately, by production time, the finished product is a watered down compromise that never had time to ferment. Of course, there are those little gems coming out of the eighties and nineties.

In a perfect world…

Imagine, just for a second, a full Yes treatment of Trevor Rabin's Etoile Noir (Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, White, Rabin, Kaye, Squire and Howe) in 1991 for the live show. Then a patient 18 months for these eight musicians in the studio coming up with the "next White Album" with an amazing, mind-blowing stadium tour to follow. Understandably, this lineup would fall apart leaving the “Keys to Ascension” line-up to create the album that should have been, minus the perfunctory live tracks.

Apart from the missed opportunities that have plagued the band, Yes will always be the band I love.

[charl8e]

One should keep an open mind. But not so open that your brains fall out. I dislike Cinema, and I dislike Rabin's music. I also think that it is bad bad bad music. My mind is not so open that I like everything... But, I haven't listened to Talk, so I still have an open mind on that. Here's a great example of a closed mind: I spoke with a rock critic friend the other day, who laughed and laughed at me for seeing YES 3 times this summer. "Are you going to Phil Collins, too?" he said. Bastard. Then I asked him what he'd heard of YES. The Wives of Henry VIII, he replied. That's not YES, I said. Oh, that Simon and Garfunkel song. Umm, "America", you mean? Yeah, that's it. So, I said, have you ever heard anything actually written by YES? The answer, of course, was No!

[hoopdawg1]

fair enough, but don't you like "final eyes" (finalize?) off BG or "it can happen" off 90125? don't mean to push you just seems the songs have so much yes sincerity overlap how could one not like 'em.
1yesfan - thank you for starting this incredible forum. everybody can get their fix; feed their addiction! thanx for the order of song too.
1yesfan - thank you for staring this incredible forum. everybody can get their fix: feed their addiction! 2x for real appreciation!
OT: anybody familiar with track 4 disc 2 off "yes, freinds and relatives":
"tron thombi" by esquire. kinda different but really catchy, is this chris squire and who?
and did jon anderson do all the intruments/sounds in the studio on "olias of sunhillow"?

dreamer easy in the chair that really fits you....

[ycantibu]

Ego-inflated jerk? I think the reply re: rabin vs. howe was to be taken as a joke - deadpan of course. But what do I know, I actually like the bloke. :)



Originally posted by Moongate Climber
bataisflow: No worries, I tend to take things too seriously sometimes. The quotes from Rabin's website were a trip. He really sounds like an ego-inflated jerk. Very dissappointing. The thing I enjoyed most about the Rabin years was hearing Jon get away with his unique voice and lyrics in the context of more commercial music than Yes had played before. How many times have you heard a number one album with lyrics like "Be ready now, be ye circle/Be the central force ye life/As the game extends the cycle/Be ready to move"? What a wake-up call for all those 80s MTV viewers who were used to Michael Jackson, Cyndi Lauper and Wham! I love it!

[1yesfan]

Thankfs for the kind words Hoopdawg. I loved putting this togther for the YES FANS. All I ask in return is that you spread the word about us!!!!

[hoopdawg1]

1yf - will do, it's already taking off. this common bond/mindset/spiritual kinship/telepathic frequency/
yes consciousness/ relative subconsciousness when all played out is going to be something like a "close encounters of the third kind"....you're like richard dreyfus was.... :>) i feel like the yes message is so big that we're just part of the wave leading up to....
take care, thanx again!

[hoopdawg1]

hey what i say?....did i kill this thread?
did anyone catch the results of the arrow 93.1 fm in los angeles poll of the top three hundred classic rock songs this past labor day weekend? i couldn't find it on their website i would like to check where yes came in. www.arrowfm.com
also did anyone catch rockline, i thought yes was on 9/5 but it was the doobies.

[haroldthebarrel]

Rockline was postponed until another time. The details if any can be found at Yesworld!
:cool:

Joe

[hoopdawg1]

wonder why the radio show was cancelled? while searching the arrowfm.com site for rockline i did catch the "elo" cancelled their tour b/c only 53,000 sales for the new cd "zoom". better go buy my copy of "magnification".