Pat Got Screwed

[Q]

Pat Moraz claims in YesStories that he wrote at least some of "Awaken," and didn't get credit. His use of the cycle of fifths in his own solo work, and its obvious extrication for use as the key mechanism for "Awaken" is cited.

He's right. I checked. And it doesn't appear to be the first time a Yes contributor was overlooked (see my posts elsewhere for more questions along these lines)

[Nautilus]

Especially as his name is spelled wrong in the "Special Thanks" section of the GFTO booklet.
I assume that "Patrick Moranz" is supposed to be him, but it's obviously wrong.

Did Moraz have a falling out with Howe or something? They seem to get rid of a lot of keyboardists that way :)

[Martin Riley]

Well they were certainly playing that 'High Vibration' piece during the '76 tour when Patrick was in the band so I assume he had at least performed it and been relevant to it's genesis even if he doesn't rate an actual credit. Still, since when has everybody gained the credit that they deserve or think they deserve(I'm thinking Pete Banks here, and his oft cited disagreement with YES's sharing of royalties)

[rhammill]

They performed parts of Awaken (particularly 'High Vibration,' as well as at least one performance of Wonderous Stories while Patrick was still in the band. However, that doesn't mean that he wrote the songs, just helped in the arrangement at that point.

However, Yes has always credited based on the 'song' not the arrangement. It has been said that large portions of Fragile were written (and recorded?) before Rick joined. Did Tony have a hand in any of those songs? Relayer was largely written before Patrick joined, and the same is true for Going for the One and Drama as well.

Because of the way they work, I would think it would be difficult to determine who wrote what. Patrick has said some of his PLAYING is on Going for the one. Steve has said that none of the tracks that Patrick played on were used. Rick was not credited on any of Fragile due to contractual issues. Bill Bruford (and Peter and Tony) has said that had he known more about publishing rights and royalties that they would have insisted that they be credited for what they wrote. Did Jon and Chris understand publishing rights for the first couple of albums? It's hard to say. I suspect that they didn't.

The circle of fifths is a common element in jazz. Steve is the only one that really seems to have that jazz background in the Going for the One lineup. But because Steve and Patrick both have that knowledge (as I'm sure Rick does as well, he just doesn't typically work in a jazz idiom), I would guess that they may have played around with the idea during rehearsals and writing sessions. Remember that they played on each other's solo albums as well.

But, the keyboard playing is distinctly Rick. Rick tends to have a European approach that does not include jazz or blues elements. Even when Steve is playing something jazzy (or for that matter, when Bill was in the group), he tends not to. This, for me, is one of the reasons why things sound so interesting, you have several different approaches layered together.

I have no doubt that Patrick was involved in the writing of some of the songs, but based on the credits on other albums, I don't think he was treated any differently.

Randy

[brismike]

Very well put Randy .. you certainly know your stuff .. :)) - Mike

[Jackaranda]

Moraz said at the time GFTO came out that he helped in the initial writing for the album but was not given credit. He also stated that he didn't know why Yes gave him the boot, other than the fact that Rick re-joining would be a popular move.

I love Pat's playing. The keys on Relayer are absolutely magnificent. And let us not forget who put the Moody Blues back on the map. Long Distance Voyager was a #1, the first album the Moodies released with Moraz on Keys. So the mere fact that he was in Yes for 3 years certainly helped their cause.

If there is another "Union" tour, I certainly hope Moraz is part of it....Jack.

[Q]

moraz's work is brilliant. the sonic backdrop of the relayer tracks is unique, inventive, effective, inspired. he was a yes man thru and thru. if only we'd heard more from him ...

[Jeremy Bender]

I agree, it's a shame that Moraz wasn't allowed a stronger role in Yes' music. From what I gather, he left mainly for personality reasons, but in the Hedges book, it's hinted that Moraz wanted them to go sort of in the direction that his terrific solo album 'i' went--very percussive and wild--and they weren't interested. He was also thrust in to a very tough situation; most of Relayer was already written and he just plugged in his keyboard parts and then he had to learn all the old material in a short time. In the Hedges book, it claims that he only had about 2-3 full rehearsals before his first show! I clearly remember that when it was announced that Wakeman was coming back, I kind of thought "Uh oh, Yes isn't going forward anymore".

[Earl Grey]

Moraz's work on Relayer truly set it apart from the other YES albums. He had a tendency to hit the black notes of the keyboard, whereas, Wakey is pure church of england...

I can't imagine what Relayer would have sounded like with Rick on it.
We get little glimmers on the Tormato tour, during the GATES section of the medley, but that's about the only clue. Wakey definitely played things straighter: The jazz element was missing.

What Rick did play sounded great. But it was more proverbial YES.
Not the angular style that sets RELAYER apart from every other YES album.

I can't say that Pat Moraz is my favorite YES keys player, but he IS the most distinct sounding.

As to writing credit, sure. Moraz got screwed there a bit.

Now, GFTO sounds more like a Wakey album to me.
I can't really imagine how it would have sounded with Moraz on it...
Wakey seems to fit GFTO.
Moraz would have been TOO angular for the songs on that one.

Somehow, it all seems to work out.

A Union tour with Moraz? Yeah! I bet it never happens though...
Would be nice.

:ele:

[Q]

The great thing is, Pat is more than willing, if the circumstances arose ...

[Earl Grey]

I would LOVE it!

I just don't think the band's going to go for it... Then again, it doesn't look like Tony Kaye will be in the mix in the future (although, other yesmen have levied lawsuits against the band, and found themselves back in favor again: so who knows...).

Pat Moraz was always one of my favorite members, so I would certainly be in line for front-row center!

:ele:

[yessongs72]

IMHO,Moraz screwed himself.He was good in the studio,but put him out on the road he couldn't half the time remember where the freaking keyboard was.The best I saw him play was QPR and that was hot,other than that,he was just an ok keyboard player.
He was much better with the Moody Blues who's music wasn't as complex as Yes.I remember watching the Masterworks and Igor played circles around Moraz on Gates and I always wondered just what Mr Master of Keys,Rick Wakeman could do to Gates.Maybe,just maybe one day we shall see.
Now Moraz playing on a Union,nahhh,remember how Kaye was.He was totally lost with Wakeman up there playing.So,IMHO Maraz is an average keyboard player.

[Earl Grey]

Ah man Don...

I disagree agreeably with ya!

Moraz didn't fit in as well because he's a jazz player, and it didn't quite gell with the band as well as the eclecticism of Wakey...
But the man is a fine musician.

Smatt is standing here right now, and says, 'No. It's because he's Swiss! Whoever heard of a Swiss rock musician!" HAR! Smatt says 'Hey Don!'

:ele: Glad we're disagreeing about something other than politics for a change bucko! ;)

[soulsearcher]

did you guys see pat at YESFEST in nyc? that was pretty cool.

[jcraig]

Rick wrote a part of GOD and got no credit either. Rick got screwed?

Pat Moraz claims in YesStories that he wrote at least some of "Awaken," and didn't get credit. His use of the cycle of fifths in his own solo work, and its obvious extrication for use as the key mechanism for "Awaken" is cited.

He's right. I checked. And it doesn't appear to be the first time a Yes contributor was overlooked (see my posts elsewhere for more questions along these lines)

[tardistraveler]

IMHO,Moraz screwed himself.He was good in the studio,but put him out on the road he couldn't half the time remember where the freaking keyboard was.The best I saw him play was QPR and that was hot,other than that,he was just an ok keyboard player.
He was much better with the Moody Blues who's music wasn't as complex as Yes.I remember watching the Masterworks and Igor played circles around Moraz on Gates and I always wondered just what Mr Master of Keys,Rick Wakeman could do to Gates.Maybe,just maybe one day we shall see.
Now Moraz playing on a Union,nahhh,remember how Kaye was.He was totally lost with Wakeman up there playing.So,IMHO Maraz is an average keyboard player.


Don, have you ever seen Moraz solo? I have, and he was incredible. He throws his entire body and soul into his playing - a raw passion that I have never witnessed before or since. The man is NOT an average keyboardist! Was he the best fit for Yes? That's a matter of opinion, but he is definitely an amazing performer!

[yessongs72]

Don, have you ever seen Moraz solo? I have, and he was incredible. He throws his entire body and soul into his playing - a raw passion that I have never witnessed before or since. The man is NOT an average keyboardist! Was he the best fit for Yes? That's a matter of opinion, but he is definitely an amazing performer!

No I haven't,he played here in Wilmington a few years ago and I couldn't bring myself to see him.I am happy that you enjoyed the show and I know I am a very picky person when it comes to Yes.As I mentioned,he was a great fit for the Moodys,less complicated music.But with Yes he would get lost and forget where the keys were at times,I suffered through this for a couple years 74-76 until the return of the master.Again,happy you enjoyed him,and I did enjoy Relayer,he just couldn't replicate on stage on a consistant basis.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Earl Grey=What Rick did play sounded great. But it was more proverbial YES.
Not the angular style that sets RELAYER apart from every other YES album.

I can't say that Pat Moraz is my favorite YES keys player, but he IS the most distinct sounding.

As to writing credit, sure. Moraz got screwed there a bit.

Now, GFTO sounds more like a Wakey album to me.
I can't really imagine how it would have sounded with Moraz on it...
Wakey seems to fit GFTO.
Moraz would have been TOO angular for the songs on that one.

Somehow, it all seems to work out.

A Union tour with Moraz? Yeah! I bet it never happens though...
Would be nice.

:ele:


Ah, but isn't that the beauty of it all??

Force five uber-quality musicians in to a studio together (regardless of their individual personal styles and/or influences; or the Yes line-up in question) and make them produce the music we've all been hankering after for and enjoying for years?!

I don't know many Yes fans who might quibble about church-organ-meets-rock-riff-meets-syncapated-rhythm/purcussion-meets-metzo-choir-meets-Mellotron-meets-please-take-me-away-and-enjoy-over-28+-minutes!

Do you??

How long until we get an album called 'Crucible'??? With, no doubt, a track entitled 'Forged in Fire'??

Here's hoping.


Bren.

[yessongs72]

If there is another "Union" tour, I certainly hope Moraz is part of it....Jack.

LOL,yeah he would just stand there in amazement with the master of the keys playing,like kaye did and contribute absolutely,nothing,

[Dances w/PURPLE]

A friend of mine has met Patrick somewhere here in Florida. Does he live here now? But said he is an amazing musician. I've never seen him perform.

[umgekehrt]

Moraz's work on Relayer truly set it apart from the other YES albums. He had a tendency to hit the black notes of the keyboard, whereas, Wakey is pure church of england...
This sentence is really spot on, and describes the difference between Moraz and Wakeman in a short sentence. Wow I wish I could write something like that. Must be the pink elephant :D

[jimmygtr]

Especially as his name is spelled wrong in the "Special Thanks" section of the GFTO booklet.
I assume that "Patrick Moranz" is supposed to be him, but it's obviously wrong.

Did Moraz have a falling out with Howe or something? They seem to get rid of a lot of keyboardists that way :)

Yes' manager, Brian Lane, was still Rick's manager as well at the time. It has been sited by Patrick that Brian wanted Rick back in the band as well.

[Bill Mocarsky]

LOL,yeah he would just stand there in amazement with the master of the keys playing,like kaye did and contribute absolutely,nothing,
Rick Wakeman is rated very high from the mainstream public. However, Patrick Moraz would probably be rated higher in musician circles.
On a related note, Geoff Downes is way underated probably because of the sway towards pop and not as much flashy parts as Rick. Not that it matters to me, but Downes was the only one who could read music when he was in the band.

Bill Mocarsky

[ANTIOCH]

And Geoff could sing like a bird !

[jimmygtr]

... but Downes was the only one who could read music when he was in the band.

Bill Mocarsky

I've seen Rick with sheet music in front of him many times.

[Full Tilt Boogie]

Rick Wakeman is rated very high from the mainstream public. However, Patrick Moraz would probably be rated higher in musician circles.
On a related note, Geoff Downes is way underated probably because of the sway towards pop and not as much flashy parts as Rick. Not that it matters to me, but Downes was the only one who could read music when he was in the band.

Bill Mocarsky


Bill mate,

Rick Wakeman, as a young student, went to the Royal College of Music in London and could read music before attended same.

You might want to refer back to your notes and have a rethink? ;)

[Jackaranda]

I loved Pat's work on Relayer and he's the reason I saw the Moody Blues 5 times during the 80's.

I remember when the news broke back in the spring of 77 that Rick was coming back, I wasn't very happy about it. I was still a new Yes fan, I'd seen them once with Patrick, and was very much into Relayer at the time. An interview I read with Pat shortly after that stated that he didn't want to leave, he was forced out, and that he did indeed write and rehearse Awaken with the band (at least part of it).

It seems our fearless leader (Emperor Jon) contradicts himself at times. He insisted on various personnel changes "immediate to the band's success" but when they hit the top in 1980's he was mostly responsible for the band's demise, saying he didn't like "major success". Go figure. But Jon is a bit left field, which is what makes him great, even if he can be difficult.

[Bill Mocarsky]

Bill mate,

Rick Wakeman, as a young student, went to the Royal College of Music in London and could read music before attended same.

You might want to refer back to your notes and have a rethink? ;)
Sorry for the phrasing.
I meant Downes was the only one in the band at the time who could read music. This was just something I read from Chris Squire.
Personnally, I feel reading capability is not a gage of musicality anyways.

[smatt]

This sentence is really spot on, and describes the difference between Moraz and Wakeman in a short sentence. Wow I wish I could write something like that. Must be the pink elephant :D


Or the green stuff.... :lmao:

Earlie is right though. But I somehow have this feeling that GFTO would've been w weaker effort had Moraz been on it. I don't doubt that Pat had something to do with the writing on Awaken. I had that discussion with him jsut last Jan. and he was very convincing the way he talked about. Not Jon convincing, you know how when Jon talks about things, you don't really know what's in his mind and what isn't... Pat was very believable. But that's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.....