Tormato or Drama?

[Amdusias]

Going for the One, Tormato, and Drama all represent a unique period in Yes history; that is, a more mainstream, single-producing period (not so much in GftO, but that feel was starting to take shape). Kind of how Yes and Time and a Word were the psychedelic period, The Yes Album and Fragile were the developing prog period, and Close to the Edge, Tales, and Relayer were the full-blown prog period.

GftO is good stuff and is very different from the other two, so I'll not ask for your preference with this one included, since we all know how it's gonna be :)

Tormato however, could possibly be called Going for the Single. We've still got either the majority-favored best or second best lineup of the 70s on this one, but the overall album is very flawed. Cheesy sounds from Rick, excessive "noodling" by Steve, and an overall feel of flaky song structure with too much tweaking. Aside from Arriving UFO and Circus of Heaven, however, I think this is a very enjoyable album.

Drama on the other hand, is less focused on singles, and has more solid, rocking, and aggressive songs. However, we lost our gorgeous-voiced lead singer, and eccentric virtuoso keyboardist. Plus, the Buggles' bad influence comes out in Into the Lens, making for less good songs on an already short album. Some say Horns' voice is a good enough substitute and Downes keeps things solid and more under control than Wakeman does, or did on Tormato.

So, which of these two "lesser" albums of Yes' pre-80s period do you prefer, given the pros and cons of both?

[Jackaranda]

Tough choice.

I chose Drama.

[Amy]

Easy choice for me. I like Drama much more than Tormato.

[Jackaranda]

Tormato was good live. Much better, in fact, imho. The production was really pretty bad.

Drama was more the typical "Yes" album, with a new wave twist that was really intergrated into the overall sound beautifully.

[pauli]

Well, I'm the first person to choose Tormato...
I don't like everything on the album, but I have never been able to get into Drama at all.

[Mr. Holland]

For me it is Drama! I don't dislike Tormato, it has got some great tracks on it (allthough it also carries the IMO worst Yes song ever released Circus of Heaven), but Drama is absolutely great all the way through. It carries Chris's finest bass playing and Alan's drumming is as tight as it's ever been, Steve is on fire, Geoff's keys are great, Trevor is outstanding, all in all a truely great Yes album!

[Stever]

For me it is Drama! I don't dislike Tormato, it has got some great tracks on it (allthough it also carries the IMO worst Yes song ever released Circus of Heaven), but Drama is absolutely great all the way through. It carries Chris's finest bass playing and Alan's drumming is as tight as it's ever been, Steve is on fire, Geoff's keys are great, Trevor is outstanding, all in all a truely great Yes album!

Ditto what he said. (except I like Circus)


SteveR

[Stever]

I picked Drama (the album) over Tormato (the album) by a mile. Oddly, with the respective tours, I thought it was the other way around. The Tormato tour killed. One of Yes' very best tours IMHO, and I saw just about all of them. The Drama tour was pretty rough. I have some good memories of it. It was my wife's first Yes show, and our first concert together of any kind. But poor Trevor just had a lot of trouble live when they played some of the classics.

[Dantalion Rides Again]

I don't know, I like Tormato. Barely had to think about it.

I'd bet the main reason is that Tormato was one of the first handful of Yes albums I ever owned, and you know how those early impressions can be.

And I couldn't believe that an oddball late-seventies Yes album could be so cool . . . I remember looking at the cover, the release date, the titles etc. and bracing myself for whatever I might hear . . . then being totally pleasantly surprised by how detailed and beautiful the music was!

Drama, on the other hand, was scorned by the guy who got me into Yes. He complained about it like it embarressed him.

But all things weighed out, and my initial impressions taken into consideration, I still 1) find Jon's presence indispensable, and 2) think the lyrics and melodies are basically superior on Tormato (arguable though!).

But I notice more and more that Drama is a tight, unified album with lots of guts and slick production. Tormato is anything but that.

Maybe I'm just a bigger fan of Jon, I dunno.

[Amdusias]

For me it is Drama! I don't dislike Tormato, it has got some great tracks on it (allthough it also carries the IMO worst Yes song ever released Circus of Heaven

Yeah let's not forget that one. I was feeling _ok_ through it the first time I heard it, but when Jon's son came in I just flipped out in surprised horror.

[the'YES'kid]

i voted for Drama

the reason is very simple. Tormato is a great album but Drama is a perfect album. 100%

[JL]

I voted for Drama because I like the aggressive approach Steve, Chris and Alan took that is pretty much exclusive to that album. That said, Tormato is still a fabulous, criminally underrated album that finds its way into my CD player pretty regularly.

[Timmo]

i voted for Drama

the reason is very simple. Tormato is a great album but Drama is a perfect album. 100%Yeah....perfectly AWFUL!

Buggles Killed the Progressive Stars.

TIM
Venice, CA

[Nellsalot]

Drama, for me. I enjoy Tormato a great deal with the exception, as you guys have said, of a couple songs (Circus of Heaven is pretty horrible!). But Drama was all-around better concieved and executed and is usually a more enjoyable listen for me.

[Scooty]

Yeah....perfectly AWFUL!

Buggles Killed the Progressive Stars.

TIM
Venice, CA

Jesus Tim..LOL

Never mind...I cant convert the unconvertable....

Someday......I swear...someday i will be vindicated...

But your my buddy all the same

Scoot

[Amdusias]

Tormato: 9
Drama: 11

Well I started this thread 'cause there's always a lot of talk about these two albums. There are good and bad points about both of them, but it's never clear which one the majority here favors. So the polls are more or less even right now. Need more votes!

[UKyesfan]

Like them both. Tormato was my very first album by Yes, so went for that one

[pauli]

Yeah....perfectly AWFUL!

Buggles Killed the Progressive Stars.

TIM
Venice, CA
Ha!
I'm with you, Tim!

"I said be careful, that Buggle is really a camera..."

[Amdusias]

"I said be careful, that Buggle is really a camera..."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh man, where's that quote from?

[umgekehrt]

Drama and ABWH are really humbling albums for Jon and Steve. They showed that no one member is irreplacable in Yes. The band would still function without either of them and could still produce excellent albums.

[pauli]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh man, where's that quote from?
"America" meets "Into The Lens"...
.

Drama and ABWH are really humbling albums for Jon and Steve. They showed that no one member is irreplacable in Yes. The band would still function without either of them and could still produce excellent albums.
I think you meant "Jon and Chris" -- Steve played on both those albums.
But to me, while the band still functioned, neither are excellent albums.

But that's just a matter of taste, as this poll (and countless others!) have already shown!

[S.praematurus]

I picked Drama, but both are in my CD changer right now.

OTSWOF, Release Release and Future Times are stand-outs in my mind. And I like Arriving UFO, simply because it just is. But of course, I've got a special spot for Onward as it will be the song played for the first dance at my up-coming wedding (we're both Yes fans, but me much more than him).

That said, I have to admit, Drama was my first YesShow, and I always take that CD with me on long drives. My man is Chris, and he is the focal point for me in this one!

[pianozach]

Drama and ABWH are really humbling albums for Jon and Steve. They showed that no one member is irreplacable in Yes. The band would still function without either of them and could still produce excellent albums.

You mean Jon and Chris?

However, I think that Drama and ABWH showed that Yes COULD survive without either. They're "different" Yesses, yes, but isn't that always the case? Granted, I wish that they could go back and replace Trevor's vocals with Jon's, and replace Tony Levin's bass with Chris's (and make some room for him vocally as well.)

And how come no one ever mentions Bruford's ABWH contributions to the Yes catalogue? Perhaps because we all know that, although he and Alan are stylistically quite different, and both great drummers, they remain interchangeable.

Funny, but Drama and ABWH are a couple of my favorite Yes albums (which include also Relayer, Talk, TfTO, 90125, Yesshows, Union, Fish Out of Water, and Olias of Sunhillow, and to a lesser degree, CttE, TYA, Time and a Word, Tormato, and Fragile).

What do my Yes favorites have in common? I mean, aside from great music.

Many of these albums were made with brand new members. I think new blood usually brought out the best in the remaining members.

[C0ops]

I would take Jon Anderson and Tormato, over Drama and Trevor any day...I enjoy all the songs on Tormato, but only 2 on Drama (Machine and Tempus.)

[tommc]

Drama over Tormato easily. Some of Chris & Steve's best work. Can someone be critical of Drama without using the I am a camera line. It is so simplistic and overused. Please get past that one phrase or that one song(Into the Lens). Machine Messiah, Tempus Fugit and Does it Really Happen are great rocking YES songs.

[Amdusias]

heheh I used that common complaint just to stir the pot more or less. I love the whole album, Drama is far superior to me

The truth emerges!

[Nellsalot]

The "I am a camera" line is probably the most annoying part of the album, but I really like the rest of "Lens"! Too bad something that seems to annoy a lot of people is wedged into a pretty decent song.

[Faceintheplace]

Tormato has grown on me over time, I used to not think much of it, but now I concede that it has some great songs, the Rhino remaster has greatly improved the sound of the album. However I still would chose Drama over Tormato. I love every single track on Drama, especially "Machine Messiah" and "Into the Lens." I really go for the tightness and hard (close to the) edgeness of the music.

[Gabriel]

This was almost impossible to choose; I picked Tormato since I know the album alot better having only just got Drama but I can promise this opinion will change in a few weeks probably! Silent Wings of Freedom save Tormato from being 'good' and not 'great' for me.

[yarstruly]

Drama...just slightly....

I loved Drama immediately when I first heard it...I really didn't miss Jon & Rick very much...remember they left of their own choice....Trevor & especially the often overlooked Geoff do a great job on this album....solid all the way through...I've often wondered if this album would have had less strikes against it if they had caled the band Drama instead of Yes....

Tormato has grown on me, but it does have a few of the cheesiest moments in Yestory....;)

[SallyKhatru]

Finally a question I didn't have to think long about. Even though I do appreciate Drama - Tormato is much more often playing in my CD player. It has such an energy and is just overwhelming. Drama has fine moments, but doesn't reach Tormato for me. Still they did incredibly well on Drama considering all circumstances...

[buckleyfancy]

I have to agree with Nellsalot that "Into the Lens" is all-around a great song (well, you didn't say great). Steve's steel playing on that is just awesome. I think Drama edges out Tormato here. Its just a stronger and more consistent album from start to finish.

I'm listening to a live recording of AYAI from the Drama tour and I am trying to imagine the strangeness YES fans must have experienced seeing their favorite band without Jon and Rick. But remeber - no Trevor Horn/No Yes as the Yes camp was in shambles after Tormato and Drama kept the continuity of Yes, while Trevor Horn's work as producer on 90125 completed the YES save.

[Bugeyes]

Tormato has enough light. Drama is very dark to me, brooding.

[paulovajao]

Ivoted for tormato,no particular reason but i like very much of Drama!sounds very fresh in terms of Yes!!1an album for Steve Howe be the main man!!

[joecool]

My vote is for "Drama". From a Steve, Alan, and Chris standpoint I think it's definately an achievement. I am loath to critisize "Tormato" but I think it has a few dead spots.

"no matter where you go you're gonna find you won't see me in front, but you can't leave me behind."

[Dafty Boy]

Whenever I listen to Tormato I always feel the guitars and keyboards are fighting each other. It all sounds a bit of a hotch-potch to me. Some great songs (the opening to OTSWOF is worth the price of the album) but definitely one of the weakest albums.
To me, Drama is a re-invigorated Yes. Steve and Chris are amazing on this album!!
I think it depends if you're a 'Jon is Yes' kinda fan or not.
I'm a 'Steve is Yes' guy myself. I still prefer Turbulence to Union...

[Professor Yessor]

Steve was on both of those albums!

Oh. And Tormato is better. For reasons posted elsewheres.

Drama is still a nice recording.

Slam drama without blasting "I am a camera" ? Hmmm....

Too many layers of vocals ?
It should've been a whole new band name, like Asia, maybe ?

How about the fact that my parents finally let me go to a Yes concert,
and my 2 favorites are gone! Replaced by some guy wearing round glasses
who screeches when he tries to hit the high notes in AYAI! Aurgh....
That was an awful concert tour. When Yes announced they were touring,
they filled Madison Square garden for 3 nights. By the time they got to
Detroit, Joe Louis arena was at 25% capacity.

[Orbert]

Drama by a hair. Both are great. Both are a little further down in my own personal "rankings" (some of the others are just too awesome). But I like the difference of the sound with Trevor and Geoff on some longer-form songs. I don't just like longer songs because they're longer; I like them because you get more time to get into the idea and mood, and the band takes time to explore it more. There are some great songs on each, though.

Orbert

[Timmo]

I bought "Trauma" for completeness.

It's still in it's shrink wrap, a week later. And will stay there for awhile.

Unlike "Tormato," which has been played multiple times.

And can we say "Best extras on a Rhino Reissue!"

Who's with me on this.\

Of course, I was the one at a pre-show party who those more rational than myself convinced NOT to yell "Trevor sucks" when the ad-hoc band finished their rendition of OoaLH.

Which, by the way, was far more interesting than the OFFICIAL version.

Sheila will back me up on this.

[Scooty]

I bought "Trauma" for completeness.

It's still in it's shrink wrap, a week later. And will stay there for awhile.



Of course, I was the one at a pre-show party who those more rational than myself convinced NOT to yell "Trevor sucks" when the ad-hoc band finished their rendition of OoaLH.

Which, by the way, was far more interesting than the OFFICIAL version.

Sheila will back me up on this.

Im so glad you at least bought it Tim..I was very happy..:)

what about the Ad-hoc version of Scootfish?? Did it fly?

[Nellsalot]

"no matter where you go you're gonna find you won't see me in front, but you can't leave me behind."

Oh my god, that part is hilarious! How come no one ever talks about that? Like they pretend it isn't there...

[sherriff_johnbrown]

I love GFtO. It's definately prog, but somehow it's lesser Yes. Haven't listened to Drama. But I love Tormato, so I picked that one.

The dog songs on Tormato are Arriving UFO and Circus of Heaven. But I don't like 'Don't Kill the Whale' either. Somehow it's like 'Don't Try Suicide' in it's sappiness and overall lame-ality.

[Timmo]

I love GFtO. It's definately prog, but somehow it's lesser Yes. Haven't listened to Drama. But I love Tormato, so I picked that one.

The dog songs on Tormato are Arriving UFO and Circus of Heaven. But I don't like 'Don't Kill the Whale' either. Somehow it's like 'Don't Try Suicide' in it's sappiness and overall lame-ality.I never liked DKTW either until I heard it live.

Same with "Arriving UFO."

"Circus of Heaven" is unabashedly lame.

[Earl Grey]

I hated Tormato when it appeared...

I expected YES to save us from Sid Vicious, and instead, YES simplified what they did, wore leather jackets with tomato splat epaulettes, and ruined my summer of 1978.

I was expecting Close To The Edge Part ll, and what did we get? Circus Of Heaven Part One! No COH 'Part Two', thank the gods...
~~~~~~~~~~

Three years ago I found Yesfans, I was still emoting on what a let-down Tormato was, back in those days of lore.

Since then I've taken a second look. A third look. Damn, I actually re-bought the splattered thing and listened to it again...

And what do ya know?! I actually liked the sucka.

'Future Times' is one of my favorite Yessongs, ever.

'On The Silent Wings Of Freedom' is slightly below 'And You And I', as a dreamworld I wish to live in for all eternity...

'Don't Kill The Whale' is still a bit silly, but less-so when you consider that whaling is still legal in Japan. That our last heavenbeast is still slaughtered and sold as a commodity, the only musical mammal other than ourselves...

And when all is said and done, Tormato could have been, should have been...

It isn't the best YES album of all time, but it's worth more than the lousy Hipgnosis cover it had. I wish Roger Dean had been commissioned to re-do the cover for the Rhino Re-release.

Tormato didn't save us from Disco or The Sex Pistols.

It was simply a 'good' YES album, which could have been a great YES album, which deserves another listen.

You might even become like me: I listen to Tormato all of the time, I LOVE Tormato.

t won't save you from disco or the Sex Pistols... As per nominal, you will have to continue saving yourselves.

There ya go! ;)

EG:ele:

[Scooty]

Drama is a better "album" than Tormato..unified and clear.

Tormato has two of my favorite Yessongs ever..OTSWOF and Future Times..

But Drama is Fishy's middle finger to Jon and Rick..and I like the spunk of it all...

Tormato comes off stale..and tired..at times..

Drama shows verve and energy

I like both..ALOT..but Drama by a nose hair..and a short one at that..:)

Scoot

[Earl Grey]

How I wish that Jon had been on Drama.

It would have lost a bit of it's Horn-inspired lyrical edge, granted: 'Machine Messiah' would have been 'Soft Machine', with new age lyrics...

Still. I love Drama. Even without Jon (Without Jon????! GASP!).

I prefer Tormato, but I love Drama as well, and I didn't vote in this poll.

It's like categorizing your own children.

You have your favorites, despite yourself, yet, somehow, you love them equally.

Another YES quandry saved by magical realism...

:ele:

[Scooty]

WOW!!

Im really glad to see that its a very very tight poll at this point..and with my vote..it shall be a draw...mwhahahahahaha


Scoot :)

[Earl Grey]

OK Scoot...

Just to upset the applecart, I'm voting Tormato!

Sorry! ;) I'm a troublemaker. Must be that Squire-visit the other night! HAHA!

[Scooty]

Bah!

LOL!!

Come on..Drama is a better "album" than Tormato...it really is..
but Im sick of defending it at this point. I love Drama..as do I love Tormato..Drama is simply a better cohesive work than Tormato.

Scoot

[Earl Grey]

Drama is mixed really well...

And the guitar-bits are more resolved. As is the rythem section (Unless we are comparing it to 'OTSWOF': Tighter than a gnat's arse!).

I was just making trouble Scoot! Forgive an old fool! Sorry, I'm a dyed in the wool Trooper, with an open mind is all!

:ele:

[Scooty]

And I dont have an open mind??
For respecting the work on Drama??


Squire, White and Howe are playing their as*ses off!!
Its what HAD to happen...Jon was writing crappy esoteric folk music by this time..Wakey was out of touch..

Squire made sure that the band rocked a little harder..what in the hell is wrong with that??

Am I not a Trooper? Am I not a Yes fan cause I appreciate the balls it took to make Drama??

I guess not.
Its great, case closed...it had to happen..evolution..move on conquer and create...
keep the name alive..
THAT I RESPECT!!

OTSWOF is in my top 5 Yessongs...so don't try to lay a trip on me there..I love that track..

Drama deserves more respect..period.
Whatever happened to YES being a musical idea? a progression towards a goal?
Jon wasnt there..so?
Steve wasnt there in the 80's..and they survived..so did we...
Wakeman is overrated anyway...
but Im grumpy..LOL

Tormato has its moments..but its a mess
Drama is cohesive, driven and attains a goal..
tormato had none of this..
They were tired, uninspired...lacking

But I still Enjoy it
Scoot

[Orbert]

Drama is Fishy's middle finger to Jon and Rick..and I like the spunk of it all...
I never thought of it that way. I certainly wouldn't think Chris would be vindictive or bitter enough to flip even a figurative birdie at Jon and Rick, but I see your point. Chris carried on when Jon and Rick bailed out, and they made a Yes album without them, which no one thought was even possible. More than that, it was a good album, one which has enjoyed its share of acclaim among the truly enlightened YesFans.

Yes, to me, has always been about the music. Sure, the lyrics and vocals are there, too, but I liked Drama from first listen. It didn't bother me at all that Jon and Rick weren't there. In fact, it was kinda nice of them to leave at the same time, as that enabled Trevor and Geoff to join as a "package deal".

Orbert

[custom55]

I think both albums are terrible.

[Scooty]

I think both albums are terrible.


ouch..lol!

[Earl Grey]

I think both albums are terrible.

Challenging, not 'terrible'!

Take a day off, light a bit of insence.

Listen again. Forget CTTE for a bit...

Both fine yes Albums.

I choose both, with a nod to 'Silent Wings' and 'Future Times'.

And to 'Man In A White Car'.

:yesbird:

[JL]

I went back and read my post from when this was a new thread after I had decided that if I were to vote today I would go with Tormato and, predictably, that day I went with Drama. I cited its agressiveness, which is what makes it so special and unique in the Yes catalog. I just happen to not be in the mood for agressive today. They are both great albums.
Imagine it's 1978, radio is losing its last vestiges of freeform progressive formats, to be replaced by disco and punk. Further imagine that you've never heard Yes, that there is no CTTE, Tales, Relayer or GFTO to use as a standard by which to measure them. Some friend tells you that he's got this album Tormato by this groovy rock group called Yes. You hear Future Times. You hear Arriving UFO. You hear Onward. You hear On Silent wings of Freedom. If you are enough of a Yes nut and all around prog geek to be hanging out on this site, then I absolutely guarantee that, in this senario, you are blown away and you think that Tormato is one of the best albums ever. This album is only mediocre in the context of not being CTTE or Relayer. Most albums released since the advent of recorded music in the late 19th century don't compare real favorably with those two, so even an album by the same guys isn't fairly held to those standards. On its own merits, Tormato is a great album. So, for that matter, is Drama.

[Rogo]

Imagine it's 1978, radio is losing its last vestiges of freeform progressive formats, to be replaced by disco and punk. Further imagine that you've never heard Yes, that there is no CTTE, Tales, Relayer or GFTO to use as a standard by which to measure them. Some friend tells you that he's got this album Tormato by this groovy rock group called Yes. You hear Future Times. You hear Arriving UFO. You hear Onward. You hear On Silent wings of Freedom. If you are enough of a Yes nut and all around prog geek to be hanging out on this site, then I absolutely guarantee that, in this senario, you are blown away and you think that Tormato is one of the best albums ever.

That is EXACTLY how it was. Do I know you? ;)

[The Whale]

Hay every one if you cant tell I like Tormato. So don't kill me over it. Drama is a grate rock album and I love it for that, but in terms of YES Tormato is a better YES album in my own mind.


peace, love, and kerry in 04'

[The Whale]

Hay Rogo and JLAdams, just wanted to say its funny I don't know how many people on this sight would say Guns n' Roses AforD was a great album but it did for me what tormato did for you. Instead of M. Jackson, Vinilla Ice, and DJ Jazzy Jeff I got in to rock and roll. Obviously like wine my tast got better with age and I graduated from GNR to finer things.

[Bluetailfly]

I voted for Drama here. Tormato has an unfinished quality to it and a sense of a band comming apart, where as Drama is so tight and powerful, Alan's drumming is outstanding on Drama, and the instrumental qualities of the pieces are ferocious. It really is a different animal without Jon's lyrical input, Machine Messiah almost seems like something Pink Floyd would have written on a thematic level, and so lyrically I guess Tormato is more of a "Yes" creation, but musically Drama is better.

[Davros]

I prefer Drama because to overall sound was more mature musical sound than Tormato. Circus of Heaven is seems childish compared to Into the Lens or Does it Really Happen. Both albums are good but Drama is got a heavier sound.

[BrianD]

It was only when I first visited Yesfans and other websites about Yes that I became aware of the negativity around Tormato.

I always really enjoyed the album, albeit with a couple of weaker tracks (Circus of Heaven & DKTW).

Release Release, Future Times/Rejoice and On the Silent wings of Freedom are three all time favourite Yessongs.

In 2002/3 they did a Fragile tour
In 2004 they did a GFTO tour

I would love them to feature Tormato in 2005

[Hacman]

I don't know about a whole tour, but I thought that the songs themselves on Tormato were pretty good. I thought they were poorly produced and Jon's vocals were the weakest on any album that I know of. Howe's guitar sounds and Wakeman's keyboard sounds were just odd. The riffs themselves were pretty good. Chris and Alan were really good. I think "Onward" would be great live, as well as "Release, Release" and "Silent Wings of Freedom" (Jon's vocals really marred that song).

Jon's voice sounds great now and they've shown on this last tour that they can really improve earlier material.

[Bluetailfly]

In 2002/3 they did a Fragile tour
In 2004 they did a GFTO tour

I would love them to feature Tormato in 2005
I agree that it would be cool to hear some of Tormato played live again, but I also would like to hear some brandy new numbers that are even better. So I don't want to hear a 2005 Tormato tour, but I'd be fine if they snuck in some different pieces from it on various nights, while still blowing our minds with new epic material.

[BrianD]

I agree that it would be cool to hear some of Tormato played live again, but I also would like to hear some brandy new numbers that are even better. So I don't want to hear a 2005 Tormato tour, but I'd be fine if they snuck in some different pieces from it on various nights, while still blowing our minds with new epic material.

I agree - I don't want a Tormato nostalgia tour either - but would like them to give this album more attention amidst some other new and/or less often played material.

[Deano]

I would like to see both of these albums get a higher profile in the live show, maybe as part of a revolving setlist. However, if I had to choose one it would be Drama, although I don't think either of them have aged all that well compared to some of the earlier albums.

[ELLIS]

DRAMA!

With Steve, Chris, Alan and Trevor Rabin playing at Wembley this week,(Trevor Horn tribute) and Jon and Rick NOT there, how about Horn joining for 1 song; Tempus Fugit or Does It Really Happen?

[rickweber]

The Tormato material I thought was (and is) interesting stuff. Those songs went over much better live than on the record. (Remember records?) Drama was progress though. They needed a fresh start. But I find myself getting out Tormato and playing it good and loud once in a while. And I always enjoy it. I voted for Drama because it's a bit more exciting. Does it really happen is one of my favorites. Squire kicks butt!!

[yes_angel]

"Tormato" I might have voted on this already

[Dantalion Rides Again]

I stand by my vote and have no regrets. And I'm actually kind of surprised that it's such a close race.

But something's fishy . . . for some reason that I can't put my finger on, it seems to me that Tormato should've won the blue states and Drama the red ones; not the other way around. I'm not sayin' it's fixed; I'm just making an observation of my own instincts.

It doesn't matter which album wins the popular vote though - the album that wins will get in on the electoral vote either way.

:silly:

[bdyescall]

Tormato is great!!
Keyboards are a bit cheesy in bits.

Drama has it's good parts too.
I don't like the vocals.
Sounds like Starcastle to me.
That's a long horrible story!!

[sparky]

Drama - definetly. I love Tormato, but I find Drama more focused. I´d guess they had more fun recording it and that shines through.

[Scooty]

Well, I feel that Drama just works better as an ALBUM....it has flow and a goal.

Tormato seems disjointed, and a definite lack of direction (dont get me wrong it has moments and one of my favorite yessongs OTSWOF)

The production on Drama is simply a finer thing..the sound crisp and clear..
The album cover is superior

I heard that the recording of Drama was quite hurried..hence the pace of the album and how frantic some of it sounds...it has a sense of urgency that is just lacking from Tormato...

of course, thst just me :)

[themike]

That is a very good point. Who would think that Trevor Horn could replace Jon, and yet he did very successfully. Although if anyone was to replace Jon now, I think Steve Nardelli from the Syn would be something special. It has been the flexibility of personel that has been largely responsible for the band lasting for 35 years.

[Timmo]

Im so glad you at least bought it Tim..I was very happy..:)

what about the Ad-hoc version of Scootfish?? Did it fly?It flied, it soared, it did a loop-the-loop.

You're getting quite good Scooty. TT will be proud (the other TT, not myself).

Oh, and Gabriel, to me, OtSWoF did the opposite for me from what you posted earlier about taking it from being a great album to a merely good album. To me, it took Tormato from being a good album to being a GREAT album.

I remember "back in the day" when Tormato came out. Us Yesrats said "INTERSTING. But "OtSWoF" is like a great old Yes song.

Like I said before, Tormato tunes work better live.

C'mon...those chunky Rickenbacker riffs from Chris are worth the price of admission alone.

If they don't do OtSWoF on the next tour I may be forced to throw a tantrum. It won't do any good, but hell, it will make me feel better!

[umgekehrt]

Tormato or Drama? Why not both?

[Rogo]

It's funny, you go to a show and hear AYAI. Everybody is stunned. You hear CTTE. People are ecstatic. (You hear Roundabout in a blues tempo, everyone laughs their heads off...)

And yet, I stand there thinking, for me this experience would triple or quadruple if they for once, just once would rip into Future Times/Rejoice, eventually followed by OTSWOF later in the show.

Just think of it. They're standing there, classic line-up intact (for which I'm certainly grateful), and it could happen, but it never does.

And I'm obviously not the only one who feels like this.

But, they DID get around to playing South Side, and it was stunning. But that just proves my point.

[Bo Locks]

rip into Future Times/Rejoice, eventually followed by OTSWOFThe audience would die happy!!! Why won't Yes play these? They're really strong songs...

[Timmo]

I'd add "Release, Release" to the mix as well.

[rickweber]

Release, Release is a great song! A very quick little fellow indeed! There's a nice version of it on the Yes tribute cd. I forget who did it.

[Skyward]

Personally, I think they are both excellent efforts regardless of the excessive criticism applied to both. Agreed, "Release, Release" is a killer track and along with "Tempus Fugit", probably the best two numbers of both, IMHO. TORMATO seems like such a different path for YES to have taken. "Circus of Heaven" is a throw-away, again, IMHO.

[allpurechance]

...hmm,Tormato or Drama...one word,three letters:Yes...(!)...(hmm,I see now as I peruse that umgekehrt has taken pretty much this same position-so I echo his thought...)

[Timmo]

"Circus of Heaven" flat-out blows.

The rest of Tormato is great, particularly live.

[rememberer]

Awww... :-) If I had to think Circus of Heaven sucked, I'd have to think half of Future Times and half of Arriving UFO sucked, too... For many years I indeed thought Circus of Heaven sucked but one day recently I almost thought I got the idea, not quite sure what hit me, maybe I heard a crisper, punchier version on some weed? Some of those weeds will do that to you, I got some that give me appreciation I never totally had before of Awaken (ducks rotten tormatos...), the 9-19-78 Cleveland I think, and some or other with DKTW, the synth at the end is so big and fat at powerful that I heard that and sat up and said, "Dang that is REALLY a GOOD song!!!" for the probably the first time in my life.

On Arriving UFO, I finally gave into the odd chord changes and Steve's talking alien guitar or whatever it is, it really is pretty trippy. Overall it really is a good song, I think. Future Times to me sounds kind of like a refugee from the Paris sessions, but if I can hear it or Circus Of Heaven in my head with Alan, Chris, and Steve doing slightly more "Yessifying" them, I don't know why I wouldn't like them really.

What I think I really wish they would dig up most of all, though, is some of the solo stuff. I try and imagine Chris playing on Olias and I think it would have sounded quite awesome. Imagine if they did a track or two of that, and got out Hold Our Your Hand and Pennants and did them live, as a band. Maybe Statue of Justice from Rick's Criminal Record. Oh man, is that an incredible piece of ear candy!

And an eight to ten minute arrangement of The Remembering naturally. :-)

[todd de sunhillow]

I love them both!!!

[Whitefish]

Tormato has gotten a lot of unnecessary criticism. It is a good album, but not a great one by Yes standards. I like it overall.

Drama however, is a great album! It shows a heavier side of Yes that needed to come out and be expressed. The addition of The Buggles (which was Chris' idea) was one of the most risky experiments that proved to be perfect for the band.

Drama gets my vote.

[JL]

Tormato has gotten a lot of unnecessary criticism. It is a good album, but not a great one by Yes standards. I like it overall.

Yes, Tormato is not great BY YES STANDARDS. By any other standards, Tormato is a fantastic album. It was the new album when I discovered Yes, and I continue to love it.

I go back and forth on the question posed, given my mood. Today, it would probably be Drama. I'm in the mood for something more aggressive today.

[highaltitude]

Tormato is the choice of course specially if we consider that part of this album desapeared (what happened finally???) in the recording studio and that this album had to be a double studio album. RW talk about it in the yesyears interviews.

[umgekehrt]

If the drama is bad, people usually throw tormatoes to the stage...

[Yes2Yes]

I liked Drama better than Tormato. Tormato showed how much turmoil the band was having.

[roberta]

Both good albums in their own right. Has Yes ever made a bad album?

[SonicDeath10]

easy as cake: i love both, but tormato sounds like the work of a band falling apart and losing focus. it seems like they can't concentrate on devolping one song long enough to get the kinks worked out, and the production isn't as sterling. plus circus of heaven is the first legitimately HORRIBLE yes song!

Drama is the work of a band who got their ---- together. they got some new influences and fresh blood into the band, for the better: they tightened their sound, the guitar rocks harder than ever, the playing is perfect, the lyrics thoughtful, and it's easily easily the most under rated Yes album ever.

[SonicDeath10]

Tormato is the choice of course specially if we consider that part of this album desapeared (what happened finally???) in the recording studio and that this album had to be a double studio album. RW talk about it in the yesyears interviews.
that's interesting i never knew that. i assume the delluge of bonus tracks make up the rest?

[SonicDeath10]

Both good albums in their own right. Has Yes ever made a bad album?
you could say no if you consider the fact that union SHOULD have been a great album: some of those songs are fantastic and well written, but boring, generic playing by studio hacks (WHY WOULD YOU NEED A DRUMMER OTHER THAN ALAN AND BILL OR A KEYBOARD PLAYER BESIDES WAKEY?) and the ridiculously over the top production put this one in the wastebin of history. -Leon Trotsky

i found that review of Union by Trotsky in one of my Russian history books. I always knew he was a yes fan!

[Hill St.]

Steve tore up on Drama and played on Tormato.Drama!

[Jackaranda]

Both good albums in their own right. Has Yes ever made a bad album?


You've never heard Union, have you?

[SonicDeath10]

the horridness of that album, union, is only magifined by the idea that it SHOULD have been amazing considering the raw talent.

[yestor23]

Tormato tour, was agreat tour even though there were at least 2 disgruntled employee's ( Jon & Rick)
Drama is appealing to me for I am a struggling guitarist a lot of cool licks there, but TORMATO does it for me, On The Silent Wings Of Freedom, and Future Times do it for me. YESTOR23

[Timmo]

Drama is a far slicker record that Tormato.

Ok, "Circus of Heaven" really blew. But then again, so did "Into the Lens. ("I am a camera.")

It's true that "Tormato" was a band falling apart...but they were falling apart BRILLIANTLY.

The 10th Anniversary Tour was truly amazing. Who'd ever thought that "Don't Kill the Whale" would be so amazing live?

I missed the "Drama" tour, but friends that went said I didn't miss much.

"Drama" had some of the most amazing rhythm section work with Chris and Alan. It was also amazingly well-produced...kudos to Mr. Horn. However, they couldn't save this record from truly mediocre lyrics and singing.

I have to vote for "Tormato," if only for "On the Silent Wings of Freedom," which to me takes its place in the pantheon of truly great Yes songs.

[allgoodyes]

I concur with the previous post by muscla_1. "On The Silent Wings of Freedom" tips the scales slightly in favour of Tormato.

Although I have been an avid listener of Yes music since the early 1970s, it was only recently that I acquired the Tormato album. The variety of the song selections and the emotion they generate makes Tormato more appealing to me now than it would have been back when the album was first released. Also, the somewhat uneven production values tend to give each song an interesting character of its own- a refreshing treat in today's precise digital music recording world.

This is by no means a criticism of the Drama album. It is a very well produced album. "Tempus Fugit" is one of the great songs in the Yes catalogue and the remaining songs are very good.

[umgekehrt]

Both good albums in their own right. Has Yes ever made a bad album?
You've never heard keystudio, have you?

[SonicDeath10]

mediocre singing? i strongly disagree. unlike jon? yes. mediocre? no.

plus i am a camera is good.

SLDFS

[TRUEYOUTRUEME]

I love both albums and like seeing them paired together here.

I chose Tormato. Only because it makes me hop up and down. I go nuts when I hear it.

But I love Drama also though it is more mellow and mystical for me. It also has a pop appeal that I like as well.

[SonicDeath10]

I love both albums and like seeing them paired together here.

I chose Tormato. Only because it makes me hop up and down. I go nuts when I hear it.

But I love Drama also though it is more mellow and mystical for me. It also has a pop appeal that I like as well.
QUITE agreed. Drama also has a real hard edge to it. Interestingly, Rick wakeman has said that tormato would have been the greatest yes album ever, but production was horrible, and some of hte arrangements were rushed.

[Timmo]

Tormato.

The songs work great live.

To be fair, although I have decried "Drama" in the past, the rhythm section has NEVER been better.

Well, maybe on "Relayer..."

[SonicDeath10]

i just listened to on the silent wings of freedom, which i always thought was week and i really really LOVED it. then i listened to machine messiah right after which i've always loved and i'm ROCKING OUT to it right now. so i'd have to say a tie.

[Timmo]

OtSWoF is by far the best thing on Tormato, so that's not really fair.

Ain't Steve's guitar lick at the end of the intro KICKAZZ?

[SonicDeath10]

it's all good.

[allgoodyes]

By the way, for those of you who like the song "Does It Really Happen?" on the Drama album and do not yet have the Rhino remaster of the Tormato album, Rhino has added a song called "Everybody's Song" which contains the seeds of the song "Does It Really Happen?"

Unlike the multi-layered production values on most Yes songs, "Everybody's Song" is a raw rock jam. The first part of the song has a somewhat similar feel to "Riders On The Storm" by the Doors. This is followed by some free-form bass lines by Chris Squire. It then morphs into a rough version of "Does It Really Happen?" with something of a Led Zeppelin feel to it. It may not reach the level that many have come to expect of Yes, and it is not nearly as polished as "Does It Really Happen?" on Drama but it's still a cool song to listen to.

[Scooty]

By the way, for those of you who like the song "Does It Really Happen?" on the Drama album and do not yet have the Rhino remaster of the Tormato album, Rhino has added a song called "Everybody's Song" which contains the seeds of the song "Does It Really Happen?"

Unlike the multi-layered production values on most Yes songs, "Everybody's Song" is a raw rock jam. The first part of the song has a somewhat similar feel to "Riders On The Storm" by the Doors. This is followed by some free-form bass lines by Chris Squire. It then morphs into a rough version of "Does It Really Happen?" with something of a Led Zeppelin feel to it. It may not reach the level that many have come to expect of Yes, and it is not nearly as polished as "Does It Really Happen?" on Drama but it's still a cool song to listen to.


I couldnt agree more..
This thus far has been my favorite bonus track from Rhino!!
It's truly amazing how much Yes can ROCK when they want to isnt it???

[Scooty]

Both good albums in their own right. Has Yes ever made a bad album?

Yup...2.

Open Your Eyes and Union :)

But that's just me...

[Scooty]

By the way, Im very happy about how linear this poll has turned out. I mean, in all real respects Drama should be hailed as a disaster, but its not, I really and truly appreciate how close this poll is. I also am proud about how many fans here respect Drama!!

[BrianD]

Yeah...I think 25 years without being played properly adds to the mystique as well

[Scooty]

Ya' know Brian..thats very very true..
I think Yes owes it to themselves and US to reinvestigate Drama...
Jon needs to forget the fact that he wasn't there, and admit that Chris, Steve and Alan made a brilliant album without him...

The Meeting was played on this last tour...why not Does It Really Happen or tempus Fugit..

Its interesting.....

ABWH is ok
but Drama isnt...

[BrianD]

But Chris wouldn't go on stage for The Meeting!

They really do need to bury the hatchet on this.

Jon is very pig headed about some things

[Scooty]

But Chris wouldn't go on stage for The Meeting!

They really do need to bury the hatchet on this.

Jon is very pig headed about some things


Yeah, I just thought about that..you have a point. It was only Jon and Rick

They sooooooooooooo need to bury the hatchet with the Drama material..its fantastic stuff!!

Jon knows it..just won't admit it to Chris, thats my thought.

[BrianD]

There is a lot of ABWH stuff I'd like to hear as well - Birthright, Fist of Fire, Brother of Mine.

Just so much material that may never be played again.

[Scooty]

There is a lot of ABWH stuff I'd like to hear as well - Birthright, Fist of Fire, Brother of Mine.

Just so much material that may never be played again.


And the problem is Chris won't play it...
Id love to hear Chris play Brother Of Mine..he could OWN that song if he gave it a chance...

Those boys, Jon and Chris, they need a talking too!! :lmao:

[BrianD]

The answer of course is to get Trevor Horn back - he could sing the Drama material and play bass on ABWH.

[Orbert]

By the way, Im very happy about how linear this poll has turned out. I mean, in all real respects Drama should be hailed as a disaster, but its not, I really and truly appreciate how close this poll is. I also am proud about how many fans here respect Drama!!
That's a very positive way to look at it. Very Yessish.

But consider also that there are a lot of people who dislike Tormato, and may be choosing not their preference, but "the lesser of two evils". In their minds, that is. I like both albums, but in different ways. I do prefer Jon to Trevor H as a vocalist , but Trevor's not bad, and I like the music on Drama, overall, more than that on Tormato.

As with all Yes music, it depends on the mood.

[Olias of Sunhillow]

My first album was 90125 my second was the yes album and my third was Tormato. First i found it a strange album. I knew what a guitar was or a bass guitar. I also knew what a keyboard looked like. But what on earth was a polymoog or a Gibson the les paul? Later i found out they are just types of guitars or keyboards. Although it's not my favourite i like tormato. I had to listen to it for some times but now i love it. Same story for Drama. First i hated the album. No Jon, no Rick, this album was a drama! I also didn't like the cover! and i am a great roger dean fan as well. Now i just like the album. I hearded some days ago the album with some extras. Some songs that wasn't puplished yet. The songs with Jon on vocals aren't the best songs on that album.
Well anyway I love Tormato because it is with my favourite line up, but i love Drama because it sounds better.
I remember they did parts of Tempus Fugit at the 90125 tour. I like to hear Jon singing some drama songs on tour.

[SonicDeath10]

i like that, that's a good way to put it: Tormato is great because it's the classic Yes, but Drama is arguably better music.

[remembering]

Hang on a sec here in another poll on 'Yes biggest mistakes' the union with Buggles came top (at least the last time I looked) and now we a saying that Drama is as good as Tormato? Something not quite right here. I would rather play Union than Drama

By the way just after Tormato came out I went to Yes Tor on Dartmoor just to stand in the same place as them!

[Scooty]

Hang on a sec here in another poll on 'Yes biggest mistakes' the union with Buggles came top (at least the last time I looked) and now we a saying that Drama is as good as Tormato? Something not quite right here. I would rather play Union than Drama

By the way just after Tormato came out I went to Yes Tor on Dartmoor just to stand in the same place as them!

And you would be wrong my good man....

Drama is FAR superior to Union...Union is a travesty..a horrible album.

Lets give credit where credit is due..Drama rocks...Union does not.

[Earl Grey]

I prefer Tormato, but this is a long story... I figure you don't want to hear it, it's boring, and has to do with expectations and what reality held.

Let's put it this way... I prefer Tormato, but I love Drama... As long as I don't have to choose between the two.

If you want me to choose, I'll just get frustrated with the equation, and I'll clam-up...

I love both albums, and I'm happy that no one is holding a gun to my head while asking for a preference!

:ele:

[Scooty]

Drama every day of the week and twice on Saturday...

Tormato has it's moments..especialy when it contains my top 5 fav OTSWOF...

But Drama is a better "Album"....
Lets not be afraid of the obvious here....

[JL]

And you would be wrong my good man....

Drama is FAR superior to Union...Union is a travesty..a horrible album.

Lets give credit where credit is due..Drama rocks...Union does not.

I find it amazing that Scoot has to type this. We are leading him one step closer to arthritic fingers for an issue that, as far as I'm concerned, is self evident.

To quote his Scootiness, "Drama ROCKS..... Union does not." I would give Scoot a cookie but I think the bar for cookie rewards needs to be a little higher than simply a working set of ears. You do, however, deserve a cookie for being a cool dude!!!

I listened to Drama for the first time when it was new. I listened to it last, in its entirety, three days ago.

I listened to Union when it was new. I last listened to it in around 1995, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

If you hate the Buggles and the absence of Jon, that's your right. But you can't subjectively listen to Drama and not hear a progressive rock achievement of the highest order. I just have never gotten the hostility.

I wish I could change my vote on this thread weekly. I think my original vote was Tormato. Today it would be Drama. The answer depends entirely on my mood. They both rule.

[Earl Grey]

Drama is to YES as UK is to King Crimson.

[Earl Grey]

...I LOVE UK. Sounds like Crim to me, no "Fripp?'" ...Strange, but true.

UK is a fine 'Crim' album.

[Scooty]

I can sort of see that EG...but I quantify Drama as YES..plain and simple..its a YES album...The sleeve says so, the album cover says so...so I dont understand that arguement...

Why do people have such a hard time understanding that Jon is NOT Yes...
I know you don't have that difficulty EG..Drama is by every standard known to man a YES album...

Lets get over the fact that Jon isn't there..
Chris drove the car that year...and he kicked arse..
Where's the debate???
Jon is AFRAID of Drama...hence why he refuses to this day to perform the material...it was awesome stuff!!
And he WASN'T There...he should have been...it could have been cutting edge Yesmusic with him as well, but he instead chose not to be part of that...His loss.

[JL]

...I LOVE UK. Sounds like Crim to me, no "Fripp?'" ...Strange, but true.

UK is a fine 'Crim' album.

I disagree, more for the presence of Eddie Jobson than the absence of Robert Fripp.

The first UK album is unbelievably good.

[Earl Grey]

I disagree, more for the presence of Eddie Jobson than the absence of Robert Fripp.

The first UK album is unbelievably good.

Jobson should have been with Crim. A fine player.

Actually, he'd be great in YES, but that's another thread!

:ele:

Drama is a fine YES album. I missed Jon, but it is.

[Scooty]

Drama is a fine YES album. I missed Jon, but it is.


Of Course Jon is missed, but I think Chris' Ball* to even put this out is an immense statement to his prowess and understanding of what YES can be,should have benn and what they HAD to be in 1980.

Its an interesting study of Yesness, isnt it Earl..
I find Drama to be more of a Yes album than any of the 3 Rabin albums and most certainly more of a YES album than ABWH...

[Rabin105]

both are amazing to hard to decide head exploding ahhhhhhhh
we'll maybe not that far but you get the idea

[Orbert]

I disagree, more for the presence of Eddie Jobson than the absence of Robert Fripp.

The first UK album is unbelievably good.
Hear, hear!

I've never considered the relationship between U.K. and King Crimson to be any more than the fact that most of the guys were previously in Crimson or had worked with them. U.K. as a band stood on their own merits; they weren't just cool because they were like Crimson. In fact, other than John's voice, I don't think they sound that similar anyways. I've never heard anything like "In the Dead of Night" or "Alaska" on any Crimson album.

Maybe by the second album, there was more about their sound that was similar. "Rendezvous 6:02" always sounded to me like a descendant of "Fallen Angel". But then, "Carrying No Cross" sounds more like a lost ELP tune, so there ya go.

[sunburstbasser]

Drama. I mean, its my favorite Yes album anyway!

[Topographic][Sardaukar]

Tormato for me. Future Times/Rejoice is a classic progressive song. Release rocks harder than even Machine Messiah imo and Silent Wings has better playing all around than Tempus Fugit.

ps. I hate circus of heaven

[gt76yesman]

Easy one for me. Tormato.

I hate the name but really like most every track. I even like the oft bashed Circus of Heaven. There are several smokin tracks. The production quality is a little off at times. Future Times/Rejoice, Release, Release, Onward, OTSWOF, all smokin' songs. Madrigal, DKTW, Arriving UFO are very good songs. The weakest is CoH but I like this song as well.

[Scaramouche]

Tormato wins this poll hands down.

With the exception of Arriving UFO, which I thought was a bit naff, I love every song off the album.

It is also a sentimental album for me, and I suppose for a lot of other yesfans, as it marked the end of an era. The end of the first chapter of Yes' life.

This was the last album of what has been named 'Trooper' Yes, and it is sad to hear OTSWOF knowing that Jon and Rick would soon be leaving and the curtain would be drawn over Yes' triumphant period.

Scaramouche xx

[crotale2112]

I love both albums very much. Two very different albums in two very different times of life. I love machine messiah, It's one of my favorite yes tunes of all time.
But my goal on this thread is to defend circus of heaven. Over the years I have heard many people make fun of this tune.Some people consider it a joke of a song.I have friends that giggle when they hear it. Maybe that's my point. The fact that they giggle tells me that the song is working on them.Letting their imagination to run wild. To me, this is one of the most magical yes songs ever. I get an instant visual when I hear it.My imagination is heavily stimulated and I always have a silly grin when I hear it.
The words are quite eloquent and instantly captivate me, putting me into another world as fast as any epic tune. I find the lyrics almost as captivating as the opening of the revealing science of god. The fact that alan uses crotales might have something to do with my love affair with this truly amazing yessong.
Only when you truly see the indigo and gold dropping violet, red and emerald snow will you understand...
:worm:

[Timmo]

I respect Drama. And it contains some of Chris and Alan's best rhythm section work of ANY Yes album.

But I love Tormato.

Except maybe "Circus of Heaven," apologies to the above poster.

[crotale2112]

I respect Drama. And it contains some of Chris and Alan's best rhythm section work of ANY Yes album.

But I love Tormato.

Except maybe "Circus of Heaven," apologies to the above poster.

Oh the pain! :-( :worm:

"Oh.....oh my beloved circus of heaven, why do they hate you so?"

I must immediately pay homage! I head across the room to the kitchen....I shall smear myself with tomatoes....Then hug my pillow and dream of candy-floss and toffee apples......oh the pain.... ;-)

[Timmo]

...while listening to an endless tape loop of little Damion Anderson.

[Bluebird71]

Oh my, and here I was thinking that Drama must be in a comfortable lead in this poll! Tormato, well, eh...the name says it all, really! LOL

I love Drama from start to finish, but Tormato sounds a bit naff to my ears... I do like Release Release though, which, surprise surprise, sounds like it could have been a track on Drama. :music-smi

Then again, I've only had Tormato for a short while so perhaps it will grow on me -to a certain extenct, at least. We will see...

[SonicDeath10]

tormato does grow on people. it definitely grew on me. at first i thought it was bad, but now :git[1]:

[Rabin105]

tormato does grow on people. it definitely grew on me. at first i thought it was bad, but now :git[1]:
i find that happens with a lot of yes i don't like the first time I.e south side inntialy i hated but since my first listening it has grown on me now :git[1]:

[gt76yesman]

I love both albums very much. Two very different albums in two very different times of life. I love machine messiah, It's one of my favorite yes tunes of all time.
But my goal on this thread is to defend circus of heaven. Over the years I have heard many people make fun of this tune.Some people consider it a joke of a song.I have friends that giggle when they hear it. Maybe that's my point. The fact that they giggle tells me that the song is working on them.Letting their imagination to run wild. To me, this is one of the most magical yes songs ever. I get an instant visual when I hear it.My imagination is heavily stimulated and I always have a silly grin when I hear it.
The words are quite eloquent and instantly captivate me, putting me into another world as fast as any epic tune. I find the lyrics almost as captivating as the opening of the revealing science of god. The fact that alan uses crotales might have something to do with my love affair with this truly amazing yessong.
Only when you truly see the indigo and gold dropping violet, red and emerald snow will you understand...
:worm:

I agree with you Crotale2112. :crybby: It can't get no respect.....

[JL]

I love that this is pretty much a tie.

I think I voted for Tormato on the day I saw this. That vote has been in a weekly state of flux ever since (actually, more like ever since 1980).

If I could, I'd say Tormato AND Drama.

[Scooty]

I too love how close this poll is JL, its almost like a feeling of vindication, a bit o' respect for Drama....

Damn how it rocks....

[Earl Grey]

I will bytch-slap anyone who forces me to choose between the two.

;) :ele:

[Dr Yes]

Drama's a better album. More progressive than Tormato? Who cares? It's just a better album - better playing, better songs, better production, better sounds. Just better.

[Scooty]

Drama's a better album. More progressive than Tormato? Who cares? It's just a better album - better playing, better songs, better production, better sounds. Just better.


100% accurate my man.

Good 'O

[JL]

Drama's a better album. More progressive than Tormato? Who cares? It's just a better album - better playing, better songs, better production, better sounds. Just better.

I'm going to have to go with YES on the "is Drama more progressive than Tormato?" question.

[Earl Grey]

Now now...

I've decided that these polls are simply a case of walking into the museum, finding a statue of weight and worth, and swinging that arbitrary statue against all the other statues, in order to establish which is a stronger work...

I'm glad that Tormato and Drama co-exist, I have my favorite moments, but I will not swing statues!

I choose both.

I'm so bloody PC sometimes...

:ele:

[Scooty]

Too bloody PC EG!!!

Drama is simply a better ALBUM than Tormato...Tormato has some great cuts, but as an album..Drama works wonders around Tormato.

[Earl Grey]

...I don't know.

Sonically, Drama is far superior.

Musically, I tend to heft towards the Tormato...

Choosing is an abstract, both albums are in print, readily available with bonus tracks/etc...

I want it all. I'm a bit of a hedonist you see...

:ele:

[Scooty]

A hedonist......LOOOOL!!!!


that used to be my sig line....

Gawd love Chris

[Earl Grey]

If Jon's head is in the clouds, Chris's feet are certainly planted on terra firma...

Without both aspects, YES would be a rock band, or a new age band, and not the interesting collaboration of earth and sky that we love...

[Scooty]

I concur EG..i completely agree with you. However!!!!

Don't you think, just for a second that Drama proves that Chris can survive without Jon....just for a moment???

That Chris, Steve and Alan can put out an album so spectacular and driven that proves the Jon theory wrong....JUST ONCE??? Im not asking for lightning to strike twice...but Gawd Damn if Chris didnt raise the ultimate middle finger to Jon and Wakey on Drama....just once..and prove that YES can exist without them for a time...

[Bugeyes]

Drama is intense!

[smatt]

They both have their merits.......

Tormato needed a producer, Drama needed something as it's not perfect, but it does seem to have a more complete feel to it. I think Tormato was recorded in a hap-hazard fashion in a rather angry/depressed situation as oppossed to Drama which was recorded in a more desperate/depressed fashion.

I'm not choosing, I like em' both and feel that they both have very strong points as well as some very obvious weaknesses....

[The Whale]

Ya I love drama and tormato, but I think tormato is a better yes album while drama is a better over all album... does that make sense???? I love onwerd and swof but they really wouldn't fit on Drama its tuff?!?!

[Earl Grey]

Ya I love drama and tormato, but I think tormato is a better yes album while drama is a better over all album... does that make sense???? I love onwerd and swof but they really wouldn't fit on Drama its tuff?!?!

That's a pretty good assessment there TW!

I've always thought of Tormato as being the last album from the Classic Yes period.
Though production values could've been better, songs like 'Silent Wings Of Freedom' and 'Future Times' held up really well, especially years later, in retrospect.

At the time Tormato came out, I was a bit miffed that it wasn't on par with say, CTTE or The YES Album.
I thought the guys were going to save modern music from the wiles of punk and disco you see... ;) :ele:
Didn't happen, but years later I love Tormato, I go through phases where I listen to it more than anything else.

'Drama' was easier to enjoy at first listen.
It was jarring as well, in a new-direction sense, but sonically more appealing (Horn really should produce another YES album.).
I've often thought of Drama as the way the 80's should've sounded.

It had some of the fun not-so-serious elements from the time (the robotic-sounding chorus: "Camera Camera, I am a Camera..." still cracks me up; A bit of The B52s there!), yet the musicianship of the album was serious indeed.

Chris Squire mentioned to Smatt on one occassion, that he thought the guitar work on Drama was the best that Howe had ever done. That's high praise and probably true.

Drama hasn't seasoned quite as well for me over the years as Tormato has though... It's probably just me.
Perhaps it's because I had to warm-up to Tormato, sort-of the way you grow to love the puppy with the broken ear the most.
Drama was easy to love from get-go, so it seems a bit more prosaic to me now...
Still, I love Drama, I love the songs, the new direction and the sonic brilliance.
I would be hard-pressed to choose between the two, in a desert island situation ('Our boat is sinking far from the trade routes, quick! Grab the life jackets and a YES cd!').

EG:yesbird:

[gt76yesman]

Drama's a better album. More progressive than Tormato? Who cares? It's just a better album - better playing, better songs, better production, better sounds. Just better.

Tormato's a better album. More ethereal than Drama? Who cares? It's just a better album - better playing, better songs, better production, better sounds. Just better.

:lol:

Course, I am the one that likes AWBH better so my vote doesn't count......

[The Whale]

Yay!!! I got quoted by Earl Gray!!!! But really likeing AWBH should make a your vote worth more! I think that the meeting and Quartet are some of yes' best works ever. and thats a captial .

[Dr Yes]

Course, I am the one that likes AWBH better so my vote doesn't count......

:sofunny: Well you said it!

But I'm truly amazed you'd stand by a claim that Tormato has "better production, better sounds", but each to his own.

[gt76yesman]

:sofunny: Well you said it!

But I'm truly amazed you'd stand by a claim that Tormato has "better production, better sounds", but each to his own.

Yeah, I was quoting and playing with it. Did not read it. Then later realized it said better production and better sounds. I now will eat crow and say I mistyped. Tormato is not well produced and has some weak sounds. Drama has a nice full sound, much better production. That said, I still prefer most of the songs on Tormato though Drama has a couple I really, really like.

[crotale2112]

There is a tremendous amont of talent and expertise of song making on the tormoto album. The energy on tormoto I find to be very vibrant and alive.I dont care much about production, it the song that counts to me. Thats why I love yessongs so much, terrible sound yet full of amazing yesenergy.
Sometimes I look at tormoto as one huge yes epic.I find all the songs seem to gel together very well.

Madrigal,arriving ufo and future times rejoice are some of the best songs yes has ever written.
Onward was played at my brother's wedding as well, a very beautiful moment in life for myself.
My least fav is on the silent wings of freedom...:worm:

[geddy]

Drama for me,but Tormato did come off much better when i saw them live in 78.

[kmcpro615]

While Tormato has some fine moments, as an album it suffers comparitively speaking. I MUCH prefer the songwriting and production of Drama.

On Tormato the production was pretty uneven....I didn't care for the over all sound, and the cluttered "steel cage death match" for space between Steve and Rick was completely annoying. Drama is a cohesive group effort.

KMCc:)
www.kurtmichaels.com

[crotale2112]

Drama for me,but Tormato did come off much better when i saw them live in 78.

Some people think the tormoto tour was the best yes has ever sounded live.There playing skills and musicianship were at an all time high, some think.

Wakeman was also doing some blistering and truly amazing moog work during that tour aswell.

I've heard storys of the road crew running around the rotating stage with
items that help mimic a carousel during circus of heaven.I dont know if this is true or not but it sounds kind of neat.

And lets not forget squire's amazing harmonised rickenbacker bass.I love the bass work on future times, and all of tormoto.

Well it's time for lunch....I think I might have a BLT....hold the bacon and lettuce.

[Scooty]

Drama is in the lead...woohooooooo!!!!

This has been such a tight race...

[JL]

Chris Squire mentioned to Smatt on one occassion, that he thought the guitar work on Drama was the best that Howe had ever done. That's high praise and probably true.

I concur with Chris's assessment, in a tie with Relayer.

[Scooty]

I concur with Chris's assessment, in a tie with Relayer.

I concur...agreed 100%

[Dr Yes]

Some people think the tormoto tour was the best yes has ever sounded live.There playing skills and musicianship were at an all time high, some think.

Again, it's strange how one man's meat can be another's poison. IMHO I think that this tour, and the one in '79, was the worst sounding tour ever - for several reasons. Firstly, Wakeman's keyboards sound awful by and large. Too many poor sounding polymoogs and Bontempi-like sounds. Secondly, Howe's guitar sound had gone somewhere bad by this date. It was thin and weedy and bathed in way too much echo. Thirdly, I feel that on a lot of weeds I have listened to the band sound like they are going through the motions. The playing isn't inspiring to listen to and the medley idea is lame. I don't agree that the versions of Starship from this period were great either AND the band was promoting a pretty weak album (TormAto) which didn't come over too well. Okay OTSWOF sounds cool, but Circus of Heaven is fluff, Release Release was never played (it was deemed too frenetic), and only Future Times sounded like the real deal.

[SonicDeath10]

i agree Dr. Yes.

[Slim]

I much prefer Tormato. However, I don't like it a lot.

[crotale2112]

Although I must admit some of the keyboard sounds on Tormato sound terrible (kinda like a toy Casio keyboard $14.99 special from Walmart), I do think there are some magic keyboard moments -- like the Moog work on Future Times/Rejoice, and the harpsicord work on Madrigal (it works brilliantly with the acoustic guitar work). One thing I love about a lot of the early keyboards and Moogs is that a lot of them have tubes, and they're not transistor keyboards. There's a mystique and warmth to a lot of the old keyboards. A lot of them develop their own personality, not the case for some of the keyboards of the 80s and 90s that have a plastic, synthetic sound. The old keyboards require proper equalization during live performance, which might have been an issue during the Tormato tour. Thank god Rick Wakeman used the Moog for the last tour. It sounded brilliant during South Side of the Sky -- warm and fuzzy. Only an amazing band like Yes could get people so enthusiastic that they (we) end up talking about the minutiae of each performance to such a degree! I wouldn't have it any other way. My love to all Yes fans!
:worm:

[Earl Grey]

Although I must admit some of the keyboard sounds on Tormato sound terrible (kinda like a toy Casio keyboard $14.99 special from Walmart):worm:

Absolutely! Casio all the way.

Now remember where we all were, back in 1978.

'Pong' was cutting-edge, 'Disco Duck' had recently been #1 on the charts...

And Wakey could even make a 'Casio' sound good! It's all about the chops. Admit it now.

I have a warm place for Tormato. I wish it was called something else, 'Yestor' would have been better, still I love the thing.

Silent Wings Of Freedom is still the Yestrack we all wish to hear live again. It's like unrequited love.

url:yesbird:

Great post mi compadre! Carry on!

[Amy]

This is like the poll of the year...
Two choices, neck-n-neck, creeping higher and higher.
Tormato in the lead again....

[The Whale]

Uh if this pole dosn't open up abit we are going to have to have a recount!!! I'll keep these resaults in a "lock box"!

[Earl Grey]

Time for a filibuster! :ele:

[The Whale]

that would requier yes patrys, like the Trooper Party and the West Party and house speakers and a whip....ut oh!, this could go bad places..... I'll just let it go.

[gt76yesman]

We can throw tormatos at the drama queens......

Does this poll have an error margin of plus or minus 5%?

Let me make this perfectly clear. No new Texas.

Glendo

[smatt]

We can throw tormatos at the drama queens......

Does this poll have an error margin of plus or minus 5%?

Let me make this perfectly clear. No new Texas.

Glendo

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNxdm973YYUS' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_6.gif' alt='ROTFL' border=0></a>

[crotale2112]

I must not forget the most important thing of all. When I play tormato I always climb to the roof of my house...and on a clear day, from the top, you can see faraway places with strange sounding names.
Just the other day I saw seven solemn flying silvered regal horses ride by my house with a golden chariot in tow....It was illegally parked in front of a fire hydrant.
Well, it's about 4:20 and I must be going now, time for some candy-floss and some toffee apples.
:worm:

Countless expansions will arrive and flow inside of us all.....

[yesmandroc]

Tormata or Drama?

That's like having to choose between left and right breast.

[allpurechance]

Tormata or Drama?

That's like having to choose between left and right breast.

lmaooOOOOOOOOOOOOooo & thereby the advantage of bilaterality

One must have both

[Scooty]

Tormata or Drama?

That's like having to choose between left and right breast.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Ok that made my nite!!!! Very funny my man, and damn...so true!!

Awesome sig line by the way ;)

Uncle Meat rocks!!

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNxdm973YYUS' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_9_2.gif' alt='Drunk' border=0></a>

[yesmandroc]

Glad I could brighten up some peoples' nights.

[JL]

I was thinking about this at work tonight, and I figured now was as good a time as any to post it.

I noticed Brother Scooty is on line right now, and this will make his day.

First, I'm glad the poll is close to a tie, and that so many people are taking part. It shows the power of good music.

I listened to Tormato in its entirety (sans the bonus tracks) the other day. I love that album. Future Times, Arriving UFO and Silent Wings RULE. When I was turned on to Yes, it was the new album, and I have always dug it. For a mere prog band, it would be the most brilliant album of their career, and, because it's not by a mere prog band, but instead by the guys who brought you CTTE and Relayer, it gets unfairly maligned. It is a good and positive listening experience. Great songs, well played.

But......
Drama is a better album. I might even have to go as far as Drama is a MUCH better album. I've been back and forth on this question. In attempting to look at it objectively, I find that when I'm on a Tormato kick, it has more to do with what that music means to me personally than how great of an album it is.

Drama is a progressive rock achievement that only Chris, Steve and Alan could pull off. I am surprised that it took until 1980 to achieve this.

A hard prog album. Not a prog album with some hard edges like Relayer. Not a hard rock band evolving into a progressive outfit while keeping their hard rock cred intact like Rush's Farewell to Kings or Hemispheres. A true hard prog album. And a GREAT one.

Apparently, Chris thinks that Drama features Steve's best playing. Well, I think that it also features some of Chris and Alan's best playing.

[Scooty]

Drama is a progressive rock achievement that only Chris, Steve and Alan could pull off. I am surprised that it took until 1980 to achieve this.

A hard prog album. Not a prog album with some hard edges like Relayer. Not a hard rock band evolving into a progressive outfit while keeping their hard rock cred intact like Rush's Farewell to Kings or Hemispheres. A true hard prog album. And a GREAT one.

Apparently, Chris thinks that Drama features Steve's best playing. Well, I think that it also features some of Chris and Alan's best playing.


Yes! Yes and yes!!

Of course, you knew I was going to say that!!!

Chris does believe that Steve has never ROCKED harder than he did on Drama.
I stand by his statement and agree with you that Chris and Alan played their collective Butts off on this ALBUM..lemme say that again...Drama is a Great ALBUM. Tormato has flashes of brilliance, hell it even contains one of my all time most fav tracks, OTSWOF, but Drama is and always will be a far superior ALBUM than Tormato.

The rhythm section (Alan, Chris and Steve) have NEVER been more cohesive or rockin' than they are on Drama, They had something to prove....and boy howdy they proved it, to me at least.

Yes needed a harder edge. it was 1980. Jon and Rick were writing material that wasnt even close to what Yes should have been about at the close of the 70's. And then there were three...writing, recording and rehearsing material that was relevant, had a rougher darker edge that spoke WAY more than the twee sentiments that Jon was thinking about at the time( sidenote, you all know I love Jon). Drama has, for a lack of a better word B A L L S...what a concept, a Yes album with nuts. Big ones, I still hold the belief, and I want to ask Chris someday.."How GOOD did it feel to make Drama, and know that you suceeded in what it was you set out to do??"

[Timmo]

Drama has, for a lack of a better word B A L L S...what a concept, a Yes album with nuts. Big onesUm, can you say

RELAYER???

[Scooty]

And Relayer Timmo...Absolutely...

[JL]

If we're talking about testicular content, I think you must include CTTE as well as Relayer. But Drama has the biggest, and goes commando.

[Earl Grey]

"It was the best $&@#ing rock guitar in history, I'm serious! And most of that album came right out of our 'humph!'"

A quote by some bloke.

I didn't hear it, I'm quoting it.

Drama was the shyte!

:yesbird:

[SonicDeath10]

everybody plays amazingly well on Drama. Very tight, very logical playing.

[Rocksurfer]

I probably would have voted for Drama, it was very good throughout the entire ablum but I never have really put it on the top of my best Yes albums due to the fact that Jon was missing. I was disapointed when I didn't hear his voice. Even now that I am more into the quality of music, Drama is one of my least listened to albums.

[inside_out]

everybody plays amazingly well on Drama. Very tight, very logical playing.

Yeah that's the problem. I don't listen to it much. I follow Jon (not intentionally). I guess I'm just one of those people.

[chopper7]

Tough one - Tormato almost gets it for Release, Release and Silent Wings of Freedom, but overall it has to be Drama.

[crotale2112]

I love tormato and the artwork on it as well. I have often wondered what the deal is with the sunglasses. Are they just being cool? Do they feel that they have reached amazing levels of stardom and feel the overwhelming desire to wear sunglasses?
Did they all party way too hard the night before and truly need the sunglasses?
Or to protect their eyes from the glare from the blindingly and intensely lit ufo that just dropped them off on top of that hill they are on.
Anyways.... I like the photo, far better than any of the drama photos. That one of steve howe is strange....howes about that hat! I must admit the scariest photo of all is of jon anderson on the time and a word album........yikes!
One of my favorite photos is the one in relayer.....Squire seems to have the 80's big hair thing going on...almost like a perm. Maybe he had a perm...I don't know.

:worm:

[tormatotork]

Tormato is much better than Drama. The lyrics are awful on Drama but there is a great drum sound on the opening track-a prototype for the drum sound on 90125 perhaps? Tormato is quite a fun album and onward is a really beautiful song for example. Drama is kind of meaningless in that sense for me.

[Steve St Thomas]

Voted DRAMA.

I can hear that split in direction on TORMATO between Anderson/Wakeman and Howe/Squire/White, and it makes for an uneasy album. Well to my ears. There are songs on TORMATO that would easily fit the mold of DRAMA, but they're not the Anderson/Wakeman led songs. There are also songs on TORMATO that lead to ASIA's first album. I think Howe/Squire/White realised some change had to happen in Yes, and that may have been streamlining their sound even more, and I hear that on songs like Release, Release and On The Silent Wings of Freedom. I don't hear that on Madrigal, Arriving UFO, and Circus of Heaven. To me TORMATO means something had to drastically change, and I think DRAMA shows how much it needed to change, and how it benefitted from that change.

It wasn't necessarily who wrote the song that indicated that change, it was how it was played. And Anderson/Wakeman were off in some other world to Howe/Squire/White when you just transplant some of the playing on TORMATO to DRAMA or ASIA.

[yesmandroc]

And Anderson/Wakeman were off in some other world to Howe/Squire/White when you just transplant some of the playing on TORMATO to DRAMA or ASIA.

Anderson and Wakeman are always off in some other world.

[ACK!]

Drama.

Tormato has its moments, but it has some crap filler as well. Drama is tighter, more focused and driving.

[Altres]

Tormato, without a doubt. Although it is a fractured album it does still in some ways deliver. I can actually sit through each track in retrospect and pretend it works. Sort of like a badly made up b-side and off-cuts album by your favourite group.

Drama is also an OK album, don't get me wrong, but it isn't really Yes is it? I mean, didn't Dollar eventually cover a track from it? That alone must tell us something, although I'm struggling to find out what. Also, Trevor Buggle can't sing, period. I know, I stood there in Edinburgh, mouth hanging in disbelief as he mutilated And You & I before my ears. Someone nearby shouted "f*cking booo" at great volume, which kind of summed it up.

Imagine Walt Disney nipping into the Louvre, slapping lipstick on the Mona Lisa and getting Brian Sewell along to judge it.

He's a good producer however and, despite his radio friendly face, seems to be quite a nice chap when interviewed etc.

Brian

[tommc]

I love Drama and thought Trevor did a fine job on the studio tracks. I've heard weeds with Trevor singing AYAI and the singing is a cringe worthy trainwreck.

[Melissa]

Tormato. I really like it. I'm still working on liking Drama better . . .

[shortexchanges]

Drama Is A Rock Masterpeice! Tormato Is A Collection Of Songs. The Tormato Tour Was Incredible Though!

Drama And Relayer Are In The Top 4 Of All Yes Output! New Blood-fresh Sound-and Real Rock!!! Alan Shows Why He Is The Yes Drummer!

[Earl Grey]

I love Tormato (though I hated it when it came out!).

I love Drama, but miss Jon on the album.

Just think: If YES had culled the songs from Tormato and Drama, had worked out their differences, and had recorded one great double album with proper production values, and Jon singing throughout...

Now THAT would have been something!

As it was, we have two bent-eared puppy dogs, much loved, but not the ideal.

Still, I listen to Drama and Tormato very often. One or the other, or both, seem to be in continual rotation on my CD carousel.

Egee! :yesbird:

[inside_out]

I love a collection of songs especially when it's Yes. Tormato.

[Senor Mono]

Drama as a whole is better. The production is just fantastic. And the guys played perfect on that album. It still sounds fresh. imo

There are 3 of my favourites on Tormato. And I love the x-tra tracks like Picasso, Countryside, and the beginning of Getting High (or whatever its called).

Tormato does sound like it was recorded 10 years before Drama. Kudos to Mr. Horn & co.