The Curse of Starship Trooper

[PrairieMan]

My observation only:

Has anyone ever noticed that there is no decent rendition of "Starship Trooper" on either VHS or DVD? My first video of YES was a VHS version of "YESSONGS". As we all know, ST is played over the closing credits and any live action is relegated to the final strains of "Wurm". "Yes Symphonic" has a great rendition of ST, but there is an annoying layering problem (inherent on all DVD's) that manages to manifest itself, of course, during ST. "Keys to Ascension" has the entire ST suite, but the visuals accompanying it are reminicent of the work of an inept jr. high school A/V department. "HOB", which is by far and away the best YES video, alas has no ST. When, oh when, will the "ST Curse" be broken??? Is anyone else in agreement with me on this?

[Joedude]

What about on 9012Live? I thought it was played pretty decently, and the visuals are great, if a little abstract.

[ANTIOCH]

There's also a splendid version on "ABWH".

[umgekehrt]

What about on 9012Live? I thought it was played pretty decently, and the visuals are great, if a little abstract.

Yeah, but by Trevor

[jimmygtr]

...but there is an annoying layering problem...
I think I know what you mean, but...what do you mean layering problem.

I do think the ABWH version is great however.

[Joedude]

Yeah, but by Trevor
Doesn't matter to me who is playing - a good version is a good version. And 9012Live has a good version.

[Starship Trooper]

I think I know what you mean, but...what do you mean layering problem.

I do think the ABWH version is great however.

I think he's talking about that freeze-up/pause for about two seconds about halfway through some DVD's.

I have that happen in some movies I have as well.

[jimmygtr]

Doesn't matter to me who is playing - a good version is a good version. And 9012Live has a good version.

Actually I think Trevor does great. I do think without Rick's synth solo though it doesn't build as much. On Symphonic they do a good job of building with Chris on bass and then having Tom do a nice solo. I'm not quite sure if Tony didn't want to solo or just felt like he didn't have the dexterity.

That's all I have to say about that.

[YEShead42]

Doesn't matter to me who is playing - a good version is a good version. And 9012Live has a good version.

Trevor Butchering Steve's work? UGH! I can't even begin to tell you whats wrong with that!

[umgekehrt]

Well the term "layering problem" is quite correct, because it is caused by the player trying to switch from first to second layer. Here's the story:

In the beginning, there was CD. And CD was good. CD's got 700 megs. But then people started saying: hey man we need something with a bigger capacity.

So they created DVD.

And DVD was good. DVD's got 4700 megs. But then people started saying: hey man this isn't even enough for a movie with options to change the spoken language and subtitles, not to mention director's commentary and other bonus thingies.

So they created double-layered DVD.

Which is basically a normal DVD, but with twice as much capacity.

Think of it as a vinyl, only it's shiny and not black and the grooves are microscopic. Instead of writing the data on only one side of the groove, they do it on both sides.

This means that the head first follows one side of data from the outer to the inner ring, then halfway through it jumps back to the outer ring to read the second side (or layer) of data and trace it back to the inner ring again.

The time it takes for the head to travel from the inner to the outer ring is what causes the pause.

Some players solve this problem by anticipating the layer changing event by buffering a couple of seconds ahead of the movie, thus eliminating the pause.

So there.

[PrairieMan]

Hey everyone,

Sorry I haven't been able to check back in and comment. Yes, the description of the layering problem by "umgekehrt" and "Starship Trooper" on "Yes Symphonic" is exactly what I was referring to. When I was initially viewing it, I thought "Great!!! There's finally a great version on DVD!" and then the dreaded "skip", hence my reference to the continuing "Curse of Starship Trooper".

I did remember the "9012Live" version, but...(and this will open up a major "can of worms"!!), I'm more of the "camp" of "traditional YES" (the original line-up vs the Rabin or Horn years). Don't get me wrong, I think Trevor is a great musician, but it was hard for me to see YES being taken from the realm of long suites of musical "stories" to the realm of Top 40.

The "Curse of Starship Trooper" also extends to their concerts. Back on the 90125 tour in the mid-1980's, they didn't play it at the concert I went to. On the Union Tour, they did play it (outstanding version!) but, on the Ladder tour, they again chose not to play it. It looks like they've now included it on the Anniversary tour!! Yippee!!

[Orbert]

umgekehrt's description of dual-layer DVDs is for the most part correct, but I feel the need to clarify a few things.

Except for excluding mention of the two-sided DVD, an early (and successful) attempt to double the amount of data stored on a DVD, everything is fine up to this point:

Think of it as a vinyl, only it's shiny and not black and the grooves are microscopic. Instead of writing the data on only one side of the groove, they do it on both sides.
A dual-layer DVD actually has two layers of data on the same side. The primary layer is on the surface of the disc, which is semitransparent. The second layer is below the first layer, not beside it. The lens refocuses to a different "altitude" to read this second layer.

I realize that umgekehrt is probably speaking metaphorically when he speaks of one side of the groove as opposed to both, but his analogy doesn't really explain why it's called "dual-layer". Might as well tell the whole story.

The time it takes for the head to travel from the inner to the outer ring is what causes the pause.

Some players solve this problem by anticipating the layer changing event by buffering a couple of seconds ahead of the movie, thus eliminating the pause.
I may be wrong, and if so, I apologize, but my understanding is that the second layer begins at the same end of the radius as the first layer ends. I don't recall if it's the inner or outer ring, but if the lens is at the outer ring at the end of the first layer, that's where the second layer begins. The delay is caused by the device taking a moment to refocus the lens, not by having it travel the radius of the disc. It only requires about 2mb of buffer to overcome this, but apparently that is more than basic DVD players come with. High-end machines (anything over $500 or so) do have a buffer and fast enough mechanism to eliminate the layer-switch delay.

By the way, for those of you who think all DVD players look and sound about the same ("it's all digital, so it's all the same"), Drool over this. (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/krell-dvd-standard-dvd-player-6-2003.html) I once asked facetiously whether an $8000 DVD player is actually 40 times better than my $200 Sony. Turns out it just might be.

Orbert

[umgekehrt]

I may be wrong, and if so, I apologize, but my understanding is that the second layer begins at the same end of the radius as the first layer ends.

I stand corrected :D Thank you!

[Leo C]

...and in Norway Steve forgot to step on one of his pedals for the "Dissilution" part, so there was no sound...

[Jackaranda]

Doesn't matter to me who is playing - a good version is a good version. And 9012Live has a good version.

Agreed!! That's a great version.

[1yesfan]

I have many boots of the tune, rocks in most of them. I like the tune more in recordings that Chris is laying into the base pedals.

[Siberian Firebird]

I'm pretty sure the "Live in Philadelphia" DVD filmed during the Tormato tour has Starship Trooper on it...never seen it, but I've heard the audio and it's a nice version. Anyone out there who can comment on this version, visually and sonically?

[leetj]

Yes indeed Starship trooper is on the Philadelphia DVD. The sound quality on that DVD does not measure up to that of Keys or Symphonic, but worth having anyways. I think Siberian Khatru on that one is the better track (Steve at his best).
I know what people mean when they complain about ST recordings on other DVD's. Particularly frustrating for me in the Keys DVD is during Wurm, when we get to the big buildup, in great anticipation of the guitar solo, that when it finally comes after Chris's signature bass line, we get to see animated planets in orbit when all of us really want to see Steve's fingers dancing all over his fretboard! Similar situation in Symphonic (we see the orchestra instead), although we (thankfully) see much more of Steve's fingerwork overall in that one. Both of these DVDs have great sound quality though, and am eagerly awaiting the 35th anniversary edition.

[Faceintheplace]

I think the worse problem is "Heart of the Sunrise." All I have it on is the "Big Dream" VHS and that's ABWH. Its not the same with the electric drums and no Chris Squire.

[Topographic][Sardaukar]

Can anyone comment on the version at Tsongas on this tour?

[pixiedave]

Can anyone comment on the version at Tsongas on this tour?
Not as good as the one at Mohegan Sun three days erlier, but nothing to snort at!

[gt76yesman]

I thought someone was going to say they couldn't figure out Steve's guitar riff after the opening E A thing. :-)