Is Union any good? [Archive] - Yesfans.com: Founded 4/01

jimmygtr

04-01-2004, 06:31 PM

I love both of those albums. I like each of them better than 90125 and Talk, myself. But since I'm in a minority in that opinion, I don't suspect that my opinion is the right one. ;)

I think ABWH is a really fresh album with several good bits (minus teakbois). It's certainly not the pop of Yes West, but I think a fairly creative album.

Union on the other hand...I think the ABWH was pushed to hard to be something it wasn't and the result was too many musicans and producers trying make an apple into an orange.

The Yes West is also unfair because those were basically demos the record company decided to use on the CD. Arista wanted a full record and a single (Lift me up).

What I think should have happened was a real collaboration. Something like this:

ABWH + Yes West = 4 tunes
ABWH + Squire (i.e. Fragile/CTTE Yes) = 4 tunes
Yes West + Wakeman = 3 tunes
Tony Kaye/Wakeman = 1 tune
Howe/Rabin duet = 1 tune
White/Bruford/Levin/Squire = 1 tune

What would have been great about that is even if as they did only last for one album and a tour it would have given a chance to allow for some fresh creativity.

Sonoacustico

04-01-2004, 07:45 PM

well, Union has a few REALLY good songs in it, and also it has a few REALLY bad songs in it!
Something I didn't like about the Union album, is that (unlike the Union tour) no song features all 8 yesmen (4 songs by Yeswest, ie. Anderson/Rabin/Squire/Kaye/White and the rest (11 songs) by ABWH + Levin), and several songs include more than 8 guest musicians...

The good points:
-Some of the BEST YesWest material ever done (Lift me up, The More We Live, Miracle of Life)
-Some nice ABWH+L material (Silent talking; Without hope... , Masquerade)

the bad things
-Is there any need to have more than 15 guest musicians?
-Some of the weakest material ever produced by any yes lineup: Dangerous, Saving My Heart (the live version is a lot better)

Overall, I'd say it is a disc that the first time you listen to it, you like it, but then it starts to go down in your preferences' list ;)

The Union tour was extremely good!!!

Greetings

Claudio

soundchaser722

04-01-2004, 08:02 PM

The good points:
-Some of the BEST YesWest material ever done (Lift me up, The More We Live, Miracle of Life)

The Union tour was extremely good!!!

Greetings

Claudio
i couldn't agree more! I love those 3 songs. "The more we live-let go" has moved me to tears on more than 1 occasion. :crybby: (in a good way). And the show was incredible.
My suggestion- get the album, it's worth it. I've found that when i'm in a certain mood, i can REALLY get into it.

BredYes

04-02-2004, 03:53 AM

In addition to some musical reasons (both albums have a few nice songs on it), there is also a historical reason for fans to get both albums. It was a very weird period in Yes history, it tells a lot about their history. Two bands were "united", did a tour together etc. What happened between 1988and 1992 was very essential for their progress in the nineties.

yesyadda

04-02-2004, 05:26 AM

It's definitely worth owning. I usually skip the songs I don't care for but once in a while I listen to it start to finish. My favorites are the dark moody spiritual songs like Angkor Wat, Take the Water, The More We Live, Evensong. It's beyond me why folks are turned off by the lineup, studio musicians, and such. It's a good listen any way you look at it. Get the album and you won't regret it.

Rogo

04-02-2004, 05:44 AM

Come to think of it, I haven't listened to it from end to end more than a couple of times, so I'm still out on the verdict (though I've owned the CD since it came out, maybe that should tell me something...). I got it when I wasn't really very interested in the current Yes, I was too disappointed with the YesWest period. I bought ABWH when it came out though, and I've listened to that a LOT. It has some of my favourite Yes moments:

-The two high piano chords in the opening song (Second Attention)
-The Meeting (I play this piano bit myself, one of the few Wakeman things I can play on the piano and that sounds very Yeslike)
-"Only when you spoke did I realize..." A quintessential Jon moment.
-"Can you imagine it, how hard it is to grow, can you imagine it, can you imagine the
ORDER OF THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!!" Sublime.

Earl Grey

04-02-2004, 06:06 AM

Sure, Union is good.

It's not a great YES album, and sure... Wakeman refers to it as 'Onion'. :dog:

But it has it's moments.

A strange thing about Union is, that often the Howe-penned songs sound like Yes West, and the Trevor songs sound closer to the classic period! Funny, that!

'I Would Have Waited Forever' and 'Shock To The System' rock right in there with 'Owner'...

And Howe's solo piece 'Masquerade' is worth the price of the ticket...

'Lift Me Up': I dare you not to end up singing along with the chorus! One of Trev's best (although it was better live).

Union is one of those uneven YES albums... You know, like 'Talk' or 'Open Your Eyes'.

It's not quite as good as 'The Ladder'. It doesn't have a 'Homeworld' epic on it...
I'd place it a little bit above 'Open Your Eyes' in the Yeschelon.

But you can usually find it used for next to nothing, and it really does have some fun stuff on it...

I would enjoy hearing YES play 'I Would Have Waited Forever'... A fine song.

So, go ahead and buy it. 'USED'!

You never know, it could be Wakey's old copy... :D

Joedude

04-03-2004, 12:44 AM

Union isn't a high point but it still has some good moments. One of my favorite Yes pieces is The More We Live, which appears on the CD. As far as reputation, I think the negativity is due also to how the album was produced. Wakeman was particularly upset, and supposedly some of the guitar work on the ABWH parts is not Steve Howe.

Despite its reputation, I believe this CD is worth owning and giving a good listen to.

squealy

04-03-2004, 02:13 PM

supposedly some of the guitar work on the ABWH parts is not Steve Howe.

Have you read the interview that's out there on the net with guitarist Jimmy Haun where he claims to have played virtually ALL of the guitar on the ABWH songs? According to him, most of the songs only feature little snippets of Steve's playing (for example, the riff in "I Would Have Waited Forever" that follows the opening chorus is Steve and the guitar solo but nothing else) and on some he's not playing at all (Dangerous, Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day). In some cases Haun just replayed what Howe did with a slicker guitar sound (Shock to the System), in other songs he made up parts that "sounded like something Steve would do." It's kind of a shocking interview!

What I don't know is:
Rabin says they used his demos on Union with Jon singing - did Squire and White play on them? And does Rabin play on "The More We Live"? Does Kaye appear on the album at all?

Even though I'm more of a classic Yes fan I think the YesWest material is better on Union. At least Trevor's material knows what it wants to be and succeeds at being the same kind of pop-rock that worked on 90125. The ABWH stuff is neither fish nor fowl - nor is it Yes, apparently!

Cosmic_Hippo

04-13-2004, 04:57 PM

I don't think UNION is a particularly good Yes album, but I still have fond memories of it. The fondness comes from the tour, which was wonderful. To see the whole Union line-up open with "Yours Is No Disgrace" was great. The drum duet with Bruford and White was interesting because it made the difference in their styles all that more apparent. I remember "Long Distance Runaround" when Kaye, White and Rabin left the stage. That would be the only time I've seen Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe & Squire together (live or on video).

There are some good songs, with "Miracle of Life" being my favorite (and strangely enough sounding more like classic Yes than the ABWH tracks).

There's a lot of outside people putting music on this album (and writing the songs) and it tarnishes it a bit for me. While there have occasionally been credits to non-Yes members in the past, it has been because the song originated from the bands the members were in before Yes was formed. It is really two different versions of Yes putting songs on an album. Previous Yes albums always had a certain feel to me that made them unique. UNION lacks that.

Still, I think most fans of Yes would want this album. You might try eBay. It is one of those albums that sells for well under $5 there.

umgekehrt

04-16-2004, 11:14 PM

If anybody here is a Cambodian or knows a Cambodian, would you please ask for the original lyrics to Angkor Wat? I can only find the English translation with Google. I don't speak Cambodian at all but it would be nice to know how to pronounce the words right :) Thanks beforehand for any help!

Flo

04-17-2004, 06:53 AM

umgekehrt, make a search in this forum (using the Search button). I think another Yesfan had asked the translation some time ago and somebody had posted it somewhere.

rabinmovies

04-17-2004, 08:36 AM

I regard union as a good album. It is half & half. When i first got into it i couldn't believe how heavy and commercial the ABWH material on it was. I especially love the snare drum sounds from bruford. Very rich and powerful indeed. At that time i was very much into the Rabin yes so i loved lift me up and saving my heart. Shock to the system and silent talking are classics also. I always thought that the album contained too much material and i found myself getting restless towards the end of it. That album would have been perfect if it had just contained the following tracks.

I would have waited forever
Shock to the system
masquerade
Lift me up
Saving my heart
Miracle of life
Silent talking
The more we live - let go
Dangerous
Take the water to the mountain.

Gabriel

05-13-2004, 09:21 AM

Well, I for one love this album to bits; I think its extremely underrated and horribly bashed. There may be some bad songs on it, but hey, what album doesnt have that? There are some solid tunes on this like I would have waited forever, Shock to the system, Lift me up, Miracle of life, The more we live...let go, Take the water to the mountain etc and its worth a purchase by any Yesfan I think. I mean, I just got into Yes and I loved everything the band did upto this point but this is still high on my list.

Emily A. Poppe

05-13-2004, 06:12 PM

All I have to say is TAKE THE WATER TO THE MOUNTAIN baby!!!!!!!!!

Orbert

05-13-2004, 06:44 PM

I saw Union on the shelves before I'd heard anything about it, and of course grabbed it right away. Especially because there was a little sticker on the front proclaiming that all eight guys were on it.

When I got it home, I made perhaps a small mistake. I couldn't contain my curiosity, and checked to see if there were individual writing and performing credits. It just didn't seem like everyone would be playing on every song. Hmm... this tune is mostly the ABWH guys, so's this, this one's really just YesWest, hey a Steve solo! That kind of thing. So when I listened to it, I was already aware that the basic tracks were played by the separate factions. At the time, I still didn't realize things were really completely split; I assumed there was some overlap other than just Jon's voice.

Second time through, I dug into the liner notes some more and found the section with the "additional musicians" or whatever they call it. Hmm... that's kinda different for Yes. With all this talent available, they still felt the need to bring in studio guys? And heck, there's a small army here!

So now it's hard to listen to Union and not be aware that it's not just Yes playing, in any form, but lots of other guys as well. Sure, some of the songs are pretty good. And I'm pretty sure that's Steve playing Masquerade. But it isn't really a Yes album, is it? Not when tracks played by actual members of Yes were removed in favor of overdubs by some hired gun. Come on!

Is it good music? Yes, for the most part. But is it Yes? For me, that's at least as important a question. No, for the most part.

Orbert

pianozach

07-30-2004, 07:34 PM

It's one of my favorite Yes albums. I liked it before I ever read the liner notes. A bit uneven at times, but many of their other albums are as well. Uneven doesn't necessarily mean "bad."

I think this album has gotten a bad rap (and rep), and undeservedly so. Even with its flaws and politics, it is still better than most of the crap that came out in 1990/91.

I sugggest you buy it, listen to it, and judge on the merit of the music, not on the judgements of others' comments. :D:

brotherofmine

07-30-2004, 07:46 PM

I have made it clear on a number of occasions that both Union and ABWH are my favourite albums, with all respect to CTTE,YA,F etc. These albums don't get coverage, and they have a very fresh modern feel to them, different melody structures to the early albums and the live concerts from both albums are absolutely electric.But as many Yesfans will vouch for as you get close to 1,000 postings you go insane..so what do I know!!

Mind Driver

07-30-2004, 08:28 PM

I agree.....I've been listening to both Union and ABWH quite a lot lately. It hasn't been a "Shock to the System", and I rather enjoy "Quartet."

I Would Have Waited Forever.......

umgekehrt

07-30-2004, 11:22 PM

umgekehrt, make a search in this forum (using the Search button). I think another Yesfan had asked the translation some time ago and somebody had posted it somewhere.
No Flo, I want the real Cambodian lyrics. Not the translation in English

Flo

07-31-2004, 06:19 PM

In that case, I'm afraid I can't be of any help !

RABARKS

04-17-2005, 06:15 PM

brotherofmine

04-17-2005, 06:17 PM

IMHO Union is a great album one of the best...along with ABWH

yesyadda

04-17-2005, 06:28 PM

No Flo, I want the real Cambodian lyrics. Not the translation in English
Wow- I never thought of looking that up. Maybe if you plug the English version into a web translator....NAH. Betcha Jon has them somewhere.
Ya it's sound beautiful in Cambodian. We recited the translation at our daughter's baptism. Very spirity-ish.

Trooper Jim

04-17-2005, 06:28 PM

brotherofmine

04-17-2005, 06:47 PM

Whereas the classic albums (CTTE, Tales, Fragile, Yessongs) contain some epic pieces of rock music, Union is really just an album of pop/rock songs. Some nice songs, certainly - but just songs. I would sit down for an hour and a half to listen to Tales or CTTE. Union I would listen to while doing the dishes. That's the difference for me.
Well Jim, sit down put some headphones on and listen carefully..there is actually a lot going on there...it's built on layers and layers of music...Yes they are easy to listen to and mostly short songs...but if you listen to the complexity of the songs..and teh depth of some of the lyrics..3/4 minute songs yet so much happening certainly not 'pop songs' IMHO.

YESYOUANDI

04-17-2005, 07:19 PM

Well, Union is one those Jokes, which just ain't very funny----it's BOLLOX

Cheers fans.

Orbert

04-17-2005, 09:06 PM

Well Jim, sit down put some headphones on and listen carefully..there is actually a lot going on there...it's built on layers and layers of music...When I read the Wakeman quote about how he refers to it as "Onion", my first thought was that it has layers and layers. (This was before "Shrek", so no, it was not inspired by that.) I thought about the layers of sound, and how a lot of Yesmusic has that to it. But then I read the rest of the quote, and was a bit disppointed. I guess he doesn't like it. :D

Then I read the liner notes more carefully, saw at least five or six hundred guys in the credits, most of whom I'm pretty sure aren't in Yes, and thought that the only way to get that many guys on the same album is to stack them in like cordwood, so the layers thing again made sense. So "Onion" it is, but not for the same reason Rick cites. And yeah, I still like it. There's some good music on there, and most of it still sounds Yessish to me, so maybe it's not such a huge deal that so much of it wasn't actually performed by Yes.

cinderella

09-29-2005, 11:07 PM

I don't know. I've been listening to Union today. To me it's wonderful.

Of course I love the songs Trevor was involved with, and also I love the songs - I Would Have Waited Forever, Holding On and my very favorite The More We Live - Let Go. It's soooo beautiful.

So sue me. :headset:

Yes_Fan_4_Life26

09-29-2005, 11:18 PM

Yes I like this album too.

I like all the songs.

cinderella

09-29-2005, 11:38 PM

It's sad that it's looked down upon.

Seems everytime Rick Wakeman doesn't like something the fans believe it.

Like Tales From Topographic Oceans. I think it's very unfair.

luckeydoug1

09-29-2005, 11:39 PM

If I've learned anything since I began listening to Yes seriously about 3 weeks ago is that you cannot rely on someone else's review. A review is simply how one person felt about an album and may not necessarily reflect how you will appreciate it. I have further found that even if two of us agree on how great an album is more often than not our favorite songs will be on opposite ends of the spectrum. I may love what someone else is not fond of. As an example, had I relied on reviews of Big Generator, both on this site as well as elsewhere on the net I no doubt would have avoided that album like the plague. As it turns out I truely love this CD and what is worse yet, I would have never heard I'm Running, which I think is one the greatest works of music I have ever experienced. With this in mind, if you treat Union as a collection of left over songs thrown together on a CD (Odd socks so to say) I am certain you will find something that appeals to you in this collection. For me Miracle of Life was well worth the price of admission. Your mileage may vary.

DaveJB

09-30-2005, 12:07 AM

Doug makes a good point. I like Union. Had a blast at the concert. The music's very good and I still enjoy listening to it from time to time.

cinderella

09-30-2005, 12:35 AM

I loved the Union show that I went to. It was a treat because I had never seen Rick Wakeman or Steve Howe perform before. I thought it was amazing.
I took my son Eric who was almost 7 at the time. He was clapping and singing along. He really enjoyed it. :D

DaveJB

09-30-2005, 12:47 AM

I was pretty fortunate, it was my first time seeing Rick Wakeman too. I went with my new wife and her pretty co-worker! Fortunately, I was paying more attention to the music!

Seriously though, it was a great show seeing all of the Yes men on stage. I thought it was really cool. It's sorta disappointing to hear so many folk are down on it.

Orbert

09-30-2005, 02:53 PM

Seems everytime Rick Wakeman doesn't like something the fans believe it.

Like Tales From Topographic Oceans. I think it's very unfair.
I believe that Rick doesn't like Tales or Union, but that's about it.

Rick's my favorite Yesman, for his sense of humor and probably because I'm a keyboard player, but he's brutally honest with his opinions. I admire the honesty, but not the brutality, and I often disagree with him. Rick doesn't like Tales because it was an arduous, painful experience, and he doesn't care for the end result. I love the end result. Rick doesn't like Union because it's usually not him you're hearing and it's "not really Yes". Again, it's the finished product that matters. I like most of the songs on Union, so I guess I like the album overall, despite what Rick says.

You're right though, Cindy. A lot of times, fans will allow the opinions of the performers to color their impressions of the work. I usually find the artists' comments and opinions interesting, but let the work speak for itself.

Warhorse

09-30-2005, 05:25 PM

The album is a bit hodgepodgy and manipulated. I like it for the most part. It has some good stuff. Buy it anyway and make up your own mind.

Warhorse

09-30-2005, 05:29 PM

Union my second favourite album of 91 after Solace by Sarah McLaughlan. But Lift Me UP was my favourite single of the year.

Jackaranda

09-30-2005, 05:38 PM

I wish Yes could somehow Re-do Union. As they want it.

AllGoodPeephole

10-03-2005, 10:45 PM

The Onion album (as I refer to it) did just what onions do to me. Cry! It was the comeback that just got away. The tour on the other hand was great. Thank God they only did 2 cuts from Onion. Even the song I detest the most, Boner In A Lonely Tart, sounded great with Rick just wailing away on the moog towards the end. Although I was able sense some tension between some of the classic and West members. After a terrific guitar duel between Steve and Trevor on Yours Is No Disgrace, they pretty much just kept their backs to each other. Rick and Tony wouldn't even look at each other. Only Bill and Alan appeared to be having some good fun with each other, especially during the percussion duet.

smatt

10-03-2005, 11:28 PM

I thought the album was just OK, it's got a some goods momments on it, really. I don't think overall it's as bad as people say it is. Although it's really not a Yes album in the tradional sense. I think it suffered from the onset, it was just a bad idea! But we all pretty much know by now what happened there. The tour, well I loved it The first go around was great the second was just AWESOME!

Warhorse

10-05-2005, 12:42 AM

In reality none of it was intended to be Yes, most was meant fro ABWH2, some for a Rabin album, and one song for a Squire album. Perhaps it would have been better left that way. Most fans (this one included) would have prefered if the 8 had intentially collaborated on an authentic Yes album.
I've seen a version called "(Re)Union" that only has ten of the tracks (no Angkor Wat, Evensong or Take the Water - can't remember which other one was gone, maybe Dangerous. I'm not if they were remixed or not.

Warhorse

10-05-2005, 12:47 AM

Yes i was write: check this out:Track Listings for
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width="50%">1. I Would Have Waited Forever
2. Shock to the System
3. Masquerade
4. Lift Me Up
5. Without Hope You Cannot Start the Day
</TD><TD width="50%">6. Saving My Heart
7. Miracle of Life
8. Silent Talking
9. More We Live/Let Go
10. Holding On
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<HR noShade SIZE=1>Editorial Reviews

Review
Although featuring new cover art and packaging, this is essentially a reissue of 1991's excellent Union record, cropped down from 16 tracks to ten. However, those who missed Union the first time will be treated to an album featuring nearly every artist ever to play in Yes. Steve Howe plays his heart out on "Masquerade," on one of the most energetic solos of his career. It's not one of their strongest albums by any means, but die-hard fans will revel in the quality musicianship, production, and songwriting from a group putting forth its strongest effort in years. ~ Rob Theakston, All Music Guide
I don't think most would agree with the review. Funny how the same source gave a harsh review of The Word is Live

Warhorse

10-05-2005, 12:50 AM

In the live Union video I bought in Japan, there was one nice moment during All Good People when Jon was sharing the mic with both Trevor and Steve. People seem to want to imply there was a lot of bad blood between them, but this is just nonsense.

The Closer Edge

10-20-2005, 10:50 AM

Union is so bad that I don't even own it. It has a bad sound and the songs are just really weak. Not only that but it was never a full band project. Why that was I will never understand. But even the band hates this album. You know an album is bad when the band themselves don't like it. But hey man if you're thinking about getting this cd let me give you some advice. Look for it used. You'll find it at a cheap price. I got my ABEH cd for only $4.99. you can get it here at amazon for only 76 cents. Hope that helps.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002VHK/qid=1129816181/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1095794-7949626?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

umgekehrt

10-20-2005, 10:56 AM

Union is, in my opinion, the best album Yes ever produced.

The Closer Edge

10-20-2005, 11:07 AM

Union is, in my opinion, the best album Yes ever produced.

oh come on umgekehrt you can't be serious. I mean Union is so bad it's not even worth owning. I don't even have it.

Rabin105

10-20-2005, 11:13 AM

Most would agree Like comunisam the Union in theory it's amazing in practice it's a different story

:lol: :dog:

Union well Live yes it is Amazing better than quite possibly anything else but studio well I mean had the 8 of them actually created an album of just the 8 of them no outside producers no studio musicans just them well it would require everyone's ego to be cut in half and it would require more compromise then CTTE but it would of been amazing oh well.

HaroldLand

10-20-2005, 12:33 PM

MrPhil

10-20-2005, 12:45 PM

I havn't got this album, and have only heard bits of it. I have been putting off buyig it because the reviews have been... awful Is it really that bad and does it have moments touching anything like classic yes?
No, it's not as bad as many reviews.
in fact, if you like anything newer with Yes, you can find some real good tracks here.
If you mean that classic Yes is like pre-Drama, then no, you don't find it on Union. It's more like a combination of the Ladder and Talk , perhaps?

new_sum_do_solve_ay

10-20-2005, 01:02 PM

Before OYE, Union was the worst album ever released by Yes. Despite that it has three oustanding songs by Trevor Rabin, one by Billy Sherwood, and Steve Howe's instrumental masterpiece "Maquerade". The balance of the album basically sucks.

That is SUCH gross exaggeration. Union certainly lacks chartmakers like 90125 or BG. It lacks Union, which makes it hypocritical -- there is no thematic link between all pieces... And because of that it lacks balance, like you say.

However, that being said, it contains a LOT of good stuff. I have read a great interview with Trevor and he says there's only three good tracks on the album (his of course how fitting...). Well despite that I like lots of these songs. I like Silent Talking so much I don't have space for it here. This is Yes STILL doing what they do best -- experimenting with new ideas and giving us fresh material like Masquerade. It suffers because its not 'balanced.' But as stand alone tracks this thing blows albums like tormato and Drama out of the water. It has way more talent and they are still innovating. Its in the upper third of their work 4 sure. Too bad it wasn't really a united effort.

new_sum_do_solve_ay

10-20-2005, 01:07 PM

Union is so bad that I don't even own it.

...
I got my ABEH cd for only $4.99. ...you can get it here at amazon for only 76 cents.

Hmmm I would call that a cheap review but I'm not sure we're on the same page. Are you sure you're not a Yeth fan? I heard ABEH was not bad...

MrPhil

10-20-2005, 01:15 PM

That is SUCH gross exaggeration. Union certainly lacks chartmakers like 90125 or BG. It lacks Union, which makes it hypocritical -- there is no thematic link between all pieces... And because of that it lacks balance, like you say. Too bad it wasn't really a united effort.
Yes.
Can you imagine these songs really perfomed and produced by all members, no studio session musicians, and no interfering producer?
THAT would have been a real true Union, and a real good album! One of their best. The essence is there, but the members of Yes lost their grip of their own work. Which is a total shame and nothing you would expect of 8 pros in the music business.
:theband: :rightG::drmmr: :harp: :git[1]:

steve4001

10-20-2005, 01:19 PM

MrPhil

10-20-2005, 01:22 PM

Some of the basic composition on Union is OK, but the production and the arrangements (especially the keyboard parts) are simply dreadful.

Could you give some examples of how and why the production and the arrangements are so awful IYO?

steve4001

10-20-2005, 01:47 PM

Could you give some examples of how and why the production and the arrangements are so awful IYO?That's a fair request. I'll slap the album on now and get back to you.

new_sum_do_solve_ay

10-20-2005, 01:47 PM

Some of the basic composition on Union is OK, but the production and the arrangements (especially the keyboard parts) are simply dreadful. Every year or so I drag it out thinking "give it another go...perhaps it's not as bad as you remember". Unfortunately, it is. It really, really is. It's YES by committee. It's big-business, corporate YES. It's a terrible album. However, it did give us one of greatest tours I've ever seen, so I'm very glad the album was released

Those are the reasons I will always prefer Bruford as drummer. As good as Alan is, he did not come into this band because of personal chemistry. He came into Yes as a management decision. His first meeting with Chris and Jon was in a management office. Nothing AT ALL wrong with his playing, but the holisitc feel of Yes can be compromised by this type of forced collaboration. Let's just be thankful Alan has turned out to be such a good addition.

new_sum_do_solve_ay

10-20-2005, 02:03 PM

Yes.
Can you imagine these songs really perfomed and produced by all members, no studio session musicians, and no interfering producer? :git[1]:

Hey, we can dream, right?

It's not too late!!

PrimeMover

10-20-2005, 02:19 PM

It has some good songs, and some really dreadful songs. I don't think we should blame it all on the producers though..

Gen_McWild

10-20-2005, 03:35 PM

Personally, I love most of Union.

I Would Have Waited Forever: Great song, one of my favorite Yes songs of all time. I absolutely love Tony Levin's bass playing.

Shock to the System: Hey, this is cool! Come on, who couldn't like this?

Masquerade: Beautiful.

Lift Me Up, Saving My Heart, Miracle of Life: I don't really like these very much.

Without Hope: Freakin Sweet!

Silent Talking: Incredibly cool.

Dangerous: A little cheesy, but pretty awesome if you don't mind cheese.

Holding On: One of the greatest songs ever recorded.

The More We Live: Haunting, beautiful, intense. A showcase for any audio system.

Take the Water: Awesome.

Angkor Wat, Even Song: Pretty cool stuff.

steve4001

10-20-2005, 03:56 PM

Could you give some examples of how and why the production and the arrangements are so awful IYO?Hi MrPhil, I’ve just tried to listen to the album again so we could continue our discussion, but I can’t – life’s too short to listen to that sort of rubbish. However, I did manage a few tracks and I’m afraid to say my opinion hasn’t changed

The ABWH stuff suffers the most - It’s an aural mess. Multiple layers of cheesy synth sounds clogging up the mix preventing any of the tracks sounding like a real band instead of computer generated sludge. Every voice, every instrument and every effect is over-processed, over-produced and over-done. Even the acoustic instruments manage to exist in a resolutely non-acoustic space and sound utterly lifeless (Jonathan Elias must have slaved away for months to achieve such an un-involving, inoffensive, utterly bland result). Chuck in an extra ten or so keyboard and synth players; re-programme, re-record and re-order Rick’s contributions; wipe off most of Steve’s guitar work and bring in Jimmy Haun to play the parts, and you end up with a pseudo-YES-style motif designed by committee and executed by numbers. It’s awful beyond measure and is little more than con perpetrated by the music business on YES fans with, I’m sorry to say, very little protest from the band. There is of course one notable exception: Bloody well done Rick for refusing to defend the album!

And the Rabin stuff fares little better. Most of it is little more than teeny-pop rock, but the crowning turd in this toilet bowl of an album is undoubtedly the staggeringly cheesy “Saving My Heart”. It sounds like a poor demo of a sub-standard jingle for a TV cola ad that was designed by a focus group made up of creatures from the planet White Bread!

Are there any good points? Well, there’s “Masquerade” and “The More We Live – Let Go”. But, apart from that, I can’t think of much else to compliment

Gen_McWild

10-20-2005, 05:32 PM

Wow! That's pretty scathing. I don't care for the Rabin stuff either.

But I am not caught up in the production or who played what.

I just know that when the band kicks in during 'Without Hope' and that cool drum fill happens, and he goes 'fire running wild, burning in the night, chasing in the wind, shadows always dance in the rain, bringing hate to the fire' I just get goosebumps.

I love these songs, and if I love them and Rick Wakeman doesn't, I have to say it doesn't matter to me one iota.

steve4001

10-20-2005, 05:54 PM

I love these songs, and if I love them and Rick Wakeman doesn't, I have to say it doesn't matter to me one iota.Well said! That's why music's such a great subject and why we can often seem to spend as much time talking about it as we do listening to it. It would be a very dull world if we all agreed all the time. Viva La Difference!

The Whale

11-04-2005, 02:49 PM

well I don't know because I haven't heard it but this is what Bill Bruford thinks! Wow.

BB: Well, the more money you pay for a record, the more money you interfere with it – and this was a big budget record. So, they eventually decided that the guys in France (Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe) needed the assistance of all the other Yes guys in California (Chris Squire, Tony Kaye, Trevor Rabin and Alan White). So, our work was duly e-mailed, I guess, to them. They were then put on and found lacking. Then, also put on was a cast of a thousand studio musicians. So, the whole thing turned into the most God awful, auto-corrected mess you could possibly imagine! The worst record I’ve ever been on.

thats from an interview

cinderella

11-04-2005, 02:53 PM

I don't care what anyone says I still like it. :D

The Whale

11-04-2005, 02:56 PM

Ya thats what makes us Yesfans!

allpurechance

11-04-2005, 03:26 PM

...as someone I hold near and dear can tell you,Union makes for an amazing soundtrack to a thunderstorm!...and that can't be all bad!

The Whale

11-04-2005, 03:31 PM

Then, also put on was a cast of a thousand studio musicians. So, the whole thing turned into the most God awful, auto-corrected mess you could possibly imagine! The worst record I’ve ever been on.

thats from an interview

I think that this is the part that most people dislike about it. I remember alot of people complaining about how little yes actualy did on that abum.

tormatotork

11-04-2005, 03:43 PM

A few good tracks (Lift me up, I would have waited forever, silent talking) most of it is $h!t by Yes standards though.

umgekehrt

11-17-2005, 01:15 PM

I don't care who performed on that album, Yes members, studio musicians, even Garth Brooks could have performed there and I would still love Union.

And that's saying a lot, considering what opinion I have about Garth Brooks. Don't even make me start...

PrimeMover

11-20-2005, 12:28 PM

I don't care who performed on that album, Yes members, studio musicians, even Garth Brooks could have performed there and I would still love Union.

Even if Bill Clinton would have played the saxophone?

Didn't he do that?

MrZuLu

11-20-2005, 12:36 PM

Are we talking about Yes ~ Union?
or Wasted Union City Blues ~ It's A Beautiful Day
or
Union ~ Gary Bonds

I love It's a Beautiful Day...
not so keen on Gary Bonds

As far as Yes ~ Union

well, It's the best Yes Album released in 1991
"Yes", you see, Is my favorite band.
Their mistakes at rehearsal are tighter than most other band's finest performance

MrZuLu

11-20-2005, 12:39 PM

Hi MrPhil, I’ve just tried to listen to the album again so we could continue our discussion, but I can’t – life’s too short to listen to that sort of rubbish. However, I did manage a few tracks and I’m afraid to say my opinion hasn’t changed

The ABWH stuff suffers the most - It’s an aural mess. Multiple layers of cheesy synth sounds clogging up the mix preventing any of the tracks sounding like a real band instead of computer generated sludge. Every voice, every instrument and every effect is over-processed, over-produced and over-done. Even the acoustic instruments manage to exist in a resolutely non-acoustic space and sound utterly lifeless (Jonathan Elias must have slaved away for months to achieve such an un-involving, inoffensive, utterly bland result). Chuck in an extra ten or so keyboard and synth players; re-programme, re-record and re-order Rick’s contributions; wipe off most of Steve’s guitar work and bring in Jimmy Haun to play the parts, and you end up with a pseudo-YES-style motif designed by committee and executed by numbers. It’s awful beyond measure and is little more than con perpetrated by the music business on YES fans with, I’m sorry to say, very little protest from the band. There is of course one notable exception: Bloody well done Rick for refusing to defend the album!

And the Rabin stuff fares little better. Most of it is little more than teeny-pop rock, but the crowning turd in this toilet bowl of an album is undoubtedly the staggeringly cheesy “Saving My Heart”. It sounds like a poor demo of a sub-standard jingle for a TV cola ad that was designed by a focus group made up of creatures from the planet White Bread!

Are there any good points? Well, there’s “Masquerade” and “The More We Live – Let Go”. But, apart from that, I can’t think of much else to compliment
Gosh...
I am surprized you even like the band at all after that review
IMHO

illusion

11-20-2005, 06:07 PM

It's bloody crap.

Lift Me Up is alrite, but not worth £12 or whatever on its own.

Roan's Lady

11-20-2005, 06:17 PM

No.

Scooty

11-20-2005, 06:27 PM

No.

This sums is up so well, Thank you Amy :)

luckeydoug1

11-20-2005, 06:40 PM

Yes, I think it is a good album. Although I do not consider the album as a whole to be the best Yes album by any means, for me Miracle of Life and Lift Me Up more than makes this album purchase worthwhile. Further, I quite enjoy I Could Have Waited Forever, Masquerade, Without Hope, Silent Talking, The More We Life/Let Go, and Holding On very much as well. I guess it depend on what you want in an album. There is no music here like you would find on CTTE or Tales, but if you like the music from Tormato, Going for the One, The Ladder, 91025, Big Generator or Talk, then I think you will like most of Union. These albums contain my most favorite Yes music.

Hugh Shiebler

11-20-2005, 06:41 PM

I still like "Holding On" and "Silent Talking'. And nothing could mess up "Masquerade"..

relayerjim

11-20-2005, 06:52 PM

When I want to listen to some YES I never think "I know I'll listen to Union". I never ever think that! It just isn't that good..

Faceintheplace

11-20-2005, 06:54 PM

It's average. Not nearly as good as Yes' best stuff but not the worst they've done either. They let too many outside people have control and that's why it got so messed up. There's some songs I really like on there like and others make me really cringe. I don't play it that often but I wouldn't kick it out of my collection either.

pedro skychaser

11-20-2005, 06:59 PM

SHOCK is great live see yesyears dvd,MIRACLE is best yeswest song ever,WAITED4EVER
great riff+jon vocal,most songs should have been replaced by DIALOGUE songs-soon to be officially released on jonbox(we pray)+more we live-billy's greatest song credit) a mixed bag-still those dean rockforms reach ever up to join and reunite!!

YesJen357

11-20-2005, 07:08 PM

allgoodyes

11-20-2005, 09:14 PM

In my opinion, the Union album is underrated. While it does not rank among the greatest Yes albums, the music and lyrics of most of the songs on the Union album are superior to what was being produced by other musicians at that time. I still find the album to be an enjoyable listening experience.

Rabin105

11-21-2005, 12:49 AM

Faceintheplace

11-21-2005, 12:55 AM

Live that lineup was untouchable. Something for everyone. It'd be amazing if they could pull it off one more time and it'd be great if Bill left the electric drums at home this time.

Scooty

11-21-2005, 12:59 AM

The union lineup is with out a doubt the True classic lineup and that's it

And if they would have recorded the album as such, Im sure you would be vindicated in feeling this way.

I agree that the live line up was unbelievably good..

Too bad the album was a lie.

Rabin105

11-21-2005, 01:11 AM

And if they would have recorded the album as such, Im sure you would be vindicated in feeling this way.

I agree that the live line up was unbelievably good..

Too bad the album was a lie.
true very true But the true question with al the ego's Bs and garbage and old wounds could the 8 of them produce an album

Scooty

11-21-2005, 01:19 AM

true very true But the true question with al the ego's Bs and garbage and old wounds could the 8 of them produce an album

Probably the biggest "what if ?" scenario in Yeslore,man.

The thing that pissed me off the most was not knowing that all 8 didn't contribute all at once until I read the liner notes. I was listening to the album thinking,"Boy this is really bad." Only upon reading the credits did I find out the true atrocity that is Union.

If they got the tour together...Im sure they could have recorded together, but timing and flow of the almighty dollar at that point meant the fastest route to an album and tour (which I thouroughly enjoyed, loved the tour).

rynopaints

11-21-2005, 01:24 AM

I find Union to be an excellent listen and really like a hand full of songs alot. I play it quite often and I'm always turning people on to Masquerade!! I bought a cheapy $1.99 copy thru my music club for my 10 year old son because he likes it!!
Enjoying it all!!!
Steve

Gen_McWild

11-21-2005, 07:54 PM

love me some Union.

the Trevor songs are awful but 'I Would Have Waited Forever' and 'Holding On' are true classics.

any Tony Levin is the greatest bass player ever.

Rabin105

11-21-2005, 10:54 PM

love me some Union.

the Trevor songs are awful but 'I Would Have Waited Forever' and 'Holding On' are true classics.

any Tony Levin is the greatest bass player ever.
realy to qoute tony levin himself " When i heard watcher of the skies i was like yeah i can do it 21st Century schzoid i was like no problem when i heard Close to the Edge is said 'How the $%^& am i going to play that'"

steve4001

11-21-2005, 11:03 PM

Gosh...
I am surprized you even like the band at all after that review
IMHOBest band in the world, bar none, but I still can't get my head around this particular album

Hugh Shiebler

11-21-2005, 11:11 PM

realy to qoute tony levin himself " When i heard watcher of the skies i was like yeah i can do it 21st Century schzoid i was like no problem when i heard Close to the Edge is said 'How the $%^& am i going to play that'"

Levin is the best. And he played Close to the Edge; and of course he nailed it. And he can also play with Peter Gabriel, Tony Levin, Paul Simon, not to mention King Crimson - - and make it all seem easy.

steve4001

11-21-2005, 11:15 PM

to qoute tony levin himself " When i heard watcher of the skies i was like yeah i can do it 21st Century schzoid i was like no problem when i heard Close to the Edge i said 'How the $%^& am i going to play that'"Ha! Thanks - great quote... :lmao:

SadPreacher

12-01-2005, 02:21 AM

When I want to listen to some YES I never think "I know I'll listen to Union". I never ever think that! It just isn't that good..

wow...this is strange indeed...i was just thinking the same thing...i like the album enough to own it but i never knowingly reach for it when i have the others lying around waiting for my ears....uncanny.....

jcbart

12-29-2005, 10:11 PM

I liked it when it first came out and was very excited about the tour. After hearing Rick's (justified comments) and reading about Steve's parts being played by someone else I was a bit turned off. I hadn't listened to it in a while and then decided to pop it into the car cd player. I was pleasantly surprised. There's still elements I don't like but I found myself enjoying The first four tracks very much as well as Silent Talking and Miracle of Life. Still can't get into Saving My Heart though. This album could have been classic!

MrZuLu

12-29-2005, 10:47 PM

Well, I suppose I'm used to being in a minority group......Otherwise I wouldn't be a YES fan.
So with that said........ - I am almost unashamed to say that I'm in the minority who really like 'Union.'
'Union' works (for me). An enjoyable listen; - like all YES albums. (for me)

In my opinion, the Union album is underrated. While it does not rank among the greatest Yes albums, the music and lyrics of most of the songs on the Union album are superior to what was being produced by other musicians at that time. I still find the album to be an enjoyable listening experience.
The union lineup is with out a doubt the True classic lineup and that's it

another true YesFanatic

Thank you Jen

I am not ashamed to say I Love Union. I was at the Denver show and just got yet another weed from that tour I am soooooo excited!

Olias of BurryPort

12-30-2005, 09:15 AM

A few good tracks (Lift me up, I would have waited forever, silent talking) most of it is $h!t by Yes standards though.

There were some great musical ideas on this album particularly the first two tracks on each side. On the negative side it is too long , some the yes west stuff is not up to standard but worst of all is the excessive tinkering to achieve the end result. This could have been done far better.

I Lost respect for the compositions when I realised that the music was secondary to the production / Marketing / Money. A shame really