Squire Tone...Any Comments?

[Neuf]

Hello lads,

I am a 19 yr old college student who has spent the last couple years attempting to get some of the more appealing qualities of Chris Squire's bass tone. My pared down rig right now is a new Rickenbacker 4003 -> Tech 21 Sansamp Bass Driver (always on for tube-like warmth) -> Fulltone BassDrive (for subtle overdrive) -> MXR Phase 90 (set slow, for nice sweeping modulation) -> Marshall VibraTrem (hey, Squire used one on Starship Trooper and Heart of the Sunrise!) -> Fender BXR 300C amp. Basically what I'm trying to do is get, like Squire managed to, the extreme vintage-y warmth coupled with clarity. Am I stuck with having to save for a huge expensive tube amp? Not that I wouldnt want one, but affording its the tricky bit. What do you think I ought to add, or change to improve my rig? Despite the fact that my 300watt amp is solidstate, my amp right now sounds decently warm due to the Sansamp acting as a preamp (its an excellent piece of gear), and the Fulltone bass overdrive pedal is excellent. I was thinking of saving for a bass fuzz like Squire used...he used a Maestro Brassmaster if Im not mistaken, but those are ultracollectible and rare, so thats out of the question. Any recommended fuzz boxes?

I am also a huge fan of Howe and Wakeman (and, well, all of Yes i suppose) and being a guitar player as well, I have been deeply influenced by Mr. Howe. My rig isnt much like his (my guitars are Gibson Les Paul, homemade custom Jazzmaster with Fralin P90s, Danelectro Hodad electric 12 string, Danelectro Hodad Baritone converted to 6 string bass, the aforementioned Ric, a Fender Jazz, an Epiphone EB-0 converted to fretless, and some other cheapie beat up guitars I couldnt bring myself to sell) but I did find out he uses a pedal that I bought when I was starting out...the Danelectro DaddyO overdrive. I was puzzled to find this out...to be honest, the pedal sounds like the cheap crap it is. I dont get why Steve Howe wouldnt use higher quality pedals...perhaps he just likes the quirkiness of a ratty cheap distortion box...

any comments welcome...

neuf:eek:

[Ridvan]

Neuf,
I'm an electronics engineer who has been playing guitars and keyboards for 35 years and a fan of Yes since 72. In my humble opinion, The key to Mr. Squire's tone is TREBLE and TUBES. Basically, tube (or valve) amps as they start to overdrive accent the even harmonics of the note (warm and generally fuller) whereas transistor or FET amps accent the odd harmonics (generally more harsh and reedy). Transistor amps as a rule sound very good for bass, but to my knowledge Chris never used one. In the "classic" days he used Sunn amps and Cabs. Nowadays he uses Marshall (amoung other things).
The good news is that the old Sunn amps aren't that popular. You can find them often for under $300.00 at various places like gbase.com or ebay.
As to Mr. Howe, I wasn't aware that he used a Dano, but he does love to modify his equipment. He won't speak to much about spicifics, but he has let clues slip over the years regarding his es 175, vintage fender and pedals. If you are electrically inclined, drop me a line and I can give you some links regarding modifications to your music electronics.
Ridvan

[Neuf]

thanks Ridvan,

I agree wholeheartedly. I know Squire originally used Sunn amps mainly. (I think he also used Vox AC30s in the studio...go figure.) Now he uses Marshalls and Ampeg SVTs, all tube of course. Someday when I can rally the cash I plan to get a nice tube bass rig as well. The Rickenbacker bass is known for its nice treble response, too. I think the power stage of the tube amp is where some of the "magic" lies in getting Squire bass tone...simple tube preamps can't seem to get it for me. Oh well. I certainly will look into vintage Sunn amps, as the new models cant seem to edge their way under the $1000 mark.

I read about Howe's rig from a MarsMusic.com interview...some of the effects listed were a EHX Big Muff (a little surprising) and the Danelectro Daddy-O. These are run into a couple Fender Twins. I couldnt really believe it, considering that the Daddy-O in my experience is a rather bland, sterile cheap sounding overdrive pedal. One of my favorite Howe-ism tricks is the pedal steel simulation. He uses a volume pedal, but I use a volume pot on my guitar, run into a echo unit. I also use a slide to get this eery echo sound. Perfect for approximating the "Soon" section of the Gates of Delirium.

Any other Howe gear insights, I'd be keen to hear!

Thanks,
neuf

[siberian khatru]

I'm not sure how much he used it on other tracks, but on Yessong's "The Fish" he's got what sounds like a Cry Baby Wah-Wah pedal.

[yeswab]

I don't play, but I've read a million articles on The Boys, including Guitar Player, etc. You didn't mention strings. Do you know what kind of strings he uses, and are you trying to include that in recreating his sound?

Also, I don't know if this is relevant, but there is an obvious case of someone else playing a Rick and sounding noticeably like CS. (The point being that we've all heard guys playing identical guitars and basses who sound nothing like each other.)

Old Renaissance (the band) music has a guy (Jon Camp? Serious 70s blow-dried hair in any case) playing a Rickenbacker, who did get a CS-like sound, just less aggressive, because he wasn't a character like Chris.

Also, did you ever read the great thing Trevor Rabin said about hearing Yes before meeting Squire and White for Cinema? This isn't an exact quote, but it's close:

"I knew that anyone who played with this amazing, dirty, weird, crude sound had to be an interesting person..."

:yesbird:

[raiched]

Ha the quest for the holy grail. It can be found with tubes.
They have enough juice to push the 15"+ speakers cleanly.
Also Bi-Ampping can help ALOT for small rig systems. You use your biggest amp for the Low end and and nice tube fender twin or something to handle the highs. This way you get the punch down low and the clarity up top.
I thought the old SUN amps were 16ohm speaker cabs which take alot of power to drive which make the tubes work well in the range they were designed for and heat them up well. You can do the same thing with one of the newer 4ohm cabinets and a smaller amp because the 4ohm cabs are soooo much more efficient then they used to be.
Pre amps are great! I have one on my SWR 400 head but to get a smooth tone across the entier spectrum with the harmonic over tones the output seems to need to have a tube power stage. Revdan's right on the money.
Some times I actually put a small amout of distortion on the top end to fatten it up and make it sound a little warmer.
As for effects and pedals, there's not a pedal I own that I have not taken apart and changed the CAPS, diodes and resistors to suit my tasts and cool my hear. Most pedal effects sound like crap out of the box because thay use cheap parts and don't "TUNE" the circuit. The old units are the best to play with like the old tube overdrive boxes. Try experimenting with the caps and diodes first. It may take a little time but you might find the jewel in the crown and have a life time friend.
Check out this site if you haven't all ready. It really opened up my eyes at what can be done with amps and tone.

http://www.deltabluesman.com/

Cheers,:thumbup:

[Neuf]

yeah...tubes seem to be about it. If only I werent so poor! Being a guitarist as well, I have to budget for my gear carefully, and as my guitar amp is only a hybrid tube, I dont think I could justify going all-tube bass until I get a decent little tube combo for my guitar playing. But someday, someday...anyway, as far as tweaking effects units, I would agree with you, except that some of my boxes (my Fulltone and my Sansamp) sound so good as is that I wouldnt dare touch them with a soldering iron (Mike Fuller knows what hes doing!), and the rest of my cheaper boxes are modern mass-manufactured ones on PCBs that are permanently glued in and basically not designed to be user-servicable. I'd love to tweak my MXR Phase 90 reissue to have a bit more headroom (it distorts a slight bit with humbuckers) and wire it with a Fulltone 3PDT switch for true bypass, but I'd have to risk destroying it trying to rip the PCB out. I can live with it I guess; otherwise its a great sounding pedal. My Crybaby wah might be in for a rebuild someday using Fulltone Clyde parts. It really needs it! I am building an effect from scratch though...yesterday I got the parts to build a pedal based off of the Dallas Rangemaster, a 1960s treble booster used by Clapton and Brian May. I'm wiring it up with a lot of extras including a nice solid cast aluminum enclosure, a 3PDT for true bypass and LED, a 9v power jack, input jack power switching, and an extra addition to the schematic of mine, a miniswitch to vary the value of the input capacitor, to allow for the traditional treble boost, and for a newer full range boost. So I think Im going to love mucking about with pedals, but with fully functioning store bought pedals, I dont have the money really to mess with them too much!

thanks for the tips,
neuf

[haroldthebarrel]

"I don't play, but I've read a million articles on The Boys, including Guitar Player, etc. You didn't mention strings. Do you know what kind of strings he uses, and are you trying to include that in recreating his sound? "


---Did anyone ever hear that rumor about Squire using Piano Strings on his bass? i know it's not true, but is this even possible?

joe C:ohhyeah:

[raiched]

Yea those sansamp boxes are the way it should be.
I can't believe they GLUE the boards into the chases now. What a rip. Guess they don't want you to steal the simple engineering design. I wouldn't even buy a box that I couldn't repair when nessasary. What do you think about the LinePod line? I got a LINE POD PRO BASS and I love it! I can get some of the tones that I never would be able to without a full Sun or ampeg amp and my rack AND bass rige only stands 5' tall. Try one out at your local store. The cool thing is it has an spdf out on the back so you can run it direct into your computer digitally. I use it for my Guitar as well. It can also be controled via computer midi and I'm working on a palm piolet interface so I can just plug it in and switch my hole set up with my Palm.

As for stings, Roto Sound Jazz are the ones he uses and there changed often. When you put new ones on any bass the tone is really bright and clear. Personally I like the mellower tone of old strings and I can get alot of high end tone with adjustments on my SWR.
I think the hole question between tubes and solid state is that tubes hold the harmonic over tones better and they are (like Rivdan said) EVEN harmonic over tones so they sound more pleaseing to the ear.
I think if you don't have the cash for a tube amp or the back strength to hall around the amp and the cabinets to go with them then the Linepods are a good solution. Personally I like the sound and the algorythums are great. You can even create your own not to mention ease of use. Check them out when you get a chance.

You mentioned that you needed to get a guitar amp. Get a tube amp like a small fender twin or something and use THAT to Bi-AMP your bass rig, with the fender tube as your high end with a little effects and use your solid state as your low end driver. Most of the new amps have cross overs in them allready but there easy to build on your own. You'd be suprised at how much punch and low end I can get out of my 4x10+tw SWR cabinet. It's perfect for me because it's small and the speaker throw is short for stage use. Most of the time I'm patched into the house sound system anyway ( Line Pod has a direct out to the board, no more direct boxes!) and with the 15"+ speakers I could never here because the throw was so darn long. The table in the back of the club got all my bass and all I could hear was the mix from the stage monitors.
Now we get a good mix on stage and I don't have a need to crank my amp up to 10 to here myself.

Try the Bi-Amp thing when you get a chance.

Cheers,
Daniel Raiche

:cool:

[Neuf]

I own a Line 6 Bass POD. For me it was a disappointment. I've had it for almost a year...I couldnt get the sound I was after with it. Too lacking in dynamic FEEL for me. After using it for a while I gravitated back to my analog rig, which I feel has a bit more natural feel. I still use it sometimes for less serious bass playing when I want something fun to tweak around with, or for practicing with headphones, or for messing with weird effects, and definately for recording, but playing live with a rock band, I found that I had to fight too much to get a usable sound out of it, much less an inspiring tone. The dynamics werent there...it usually sounded either too soft or too loud on the loud and soft parts of the songs, respectively. Dont think its an issue of tweaking or adjusting the settings, I have toyed with this thing for a year, so I know it pretty well. Its not that it sounds bad, just that it doesnt fit live applications well for what I need. Its a cool little thing, but nothing I would buy again on my limited budget.

As far as biamping...the guitar amp probably wouldnt work as I am planning on buying a rather low wattage amp to get me power tube overdrive at decent volumes. A 15 watt tube combo is probably not going to cut it volume wise on stage for a bass rig. One rather humorous stab at biamping I did last New Years Eve involved two bass amps, my trusty 300 watt Fender BXR300C 1 * 15 combo and a SWR Workingmans 100 watt 1 * 12 plus tweeter combo. Now I knew my amp had a tendency to be a bit deep and dark, and the SWR had lots of top end, so I ran stereo outs from my tremolo pedal into both amps (the swr stacked sideways on top of the Fender; it was a sight) and EQ'ed both amps for there respective area of frequency. I brought out the extra sparkle on the SWR and boosted the bass on the Fender for a nice balanced sound. And the tremolo/panning was just that much cooler. Rather a ghetto rig, but it was better than my amp by itself...

neuf

[Sunlight Caller]

as far as amp usage for Mr. Squire I remember seeing in my Yes-The Authorized Biography-a huge tall amp called Sound City. this was pre-Fragile era btw-after the Yes Album.

I thought he used Rotosound "Swingers"-are these aka Jazz?

his tone has become so much more than just the Rickenbacker 4001-I am of the firm belief that all of Relayer is played on A Fender Jazz Fretless.Besides his well-known fretless usage on Tales-2nd movement-The Remembering he also recently just admitted to using it on i think the last section of Close To The Edge-after the Organ solo-all the way to the end. His most extensive list of equipment is located on the 1977-Yesshows Going For The One tour program. Parallels is also all fretless. Man that is a fun song to play on a fretless.

On the Ladder tour he plays the Mouradian quite a bit-i think maybe because it has more frets so he can reach higher notes.

what i really want to know is how does he get the high F# in Turn Of The Century-in the "spacey E-minor section" just before they change key into E-major for the "In her eyes" part.

i mean there is just no way a Rick or a Fender or anything but a 6-string can hit that note-and you can plainly hear it on Keys To Ascension(which could be the Carvin 6-but also on Going For The One-which i know cannot be a 6-string.

i thought it might be a harmonic-but how on a 4 string can he play an F#?

i'm truly baffled.

maybe if i get to meet him at Yescapade 2001 i will ask him directly.

Yes is confirmed to be planning on attending.

Rand Kelly

[Neuf]

never thought of Squire as much of a fretless player...I've never seen him play one before. but as far as reaching high notes, you can play an F# harmonic on a 4string, just not a natural harmonic. Fret the F# and place one finger 12 frets above it and use another finger to sound the note. Wallah. Also I'm pretty sure he used a Danelectro 6 string bass (tuned octave below guitar) which would give him a high range. I modded a new Danelectro Hodad Baritone to do that for me...

And I have heard of Sound City amps...dont know how good they are, but I imagine they are pretty cheap on ebay or pawn shops.

neuf

[Cygnus X-1]

the Danelectro DaddyO overdrive. I was puzzled to find this out...to be honest, the pedal sounds like the cheap crap it is. I dont get why Steve Howe wouldnt use higher quality pedals...perhaps he just likes the quirkiness of a ratty cheap distortion box...

I really wonder how he uses it, if he really use it. I've always wondered where his main overdrive came from...

[Yes.2]

The bass strings to get are 66's

[jnbgtr]

Hey Neuf,

The Amp seems to be the big piece of the puzzle for his sound. The Marchall Amp drives the high-end of his signal.
Chris drives the bass as a dual signal (Stereo is a mis-nomer).
As for the fuzz, yeah, the Brassmasters are no longer but Malekko heavy industry makes a clone of the pedal. It's not cheap at $255.00 but for what's it's worth they seem to be the front runner on that particular clone.
As for getting Chris' exact tone that is pretty much an impossibility on any other instrument other than his. Chris has commented that by even changing the plate for his bridge pickup he could hear a subtle tone difference so you can imagine that even the 4001CS (which I play) is probably quite 'off' from Chris' sound. I have tried for some time to approximate his tone and am running a close setup to get that sound but one of my issues is that my 4001 is mono so splitting it is only possible after the fact so I can't separate one pickup from another. Chris also uses an ART nightbass processor (which you'll easily see the picture of on his website) even though he makes no mention of it in any interview of spec sheet. I use that processor and can do many things with it but the distortion sound from it is cold.

My setup is the 4001CS with Rotosounds going into an MXR -M181 BlowTorch Bass Distortion Effect Pedal and Digitech BP200 Modeling bass processor (for volume, wah, and a couple other things) into the ART Nightbass multieffects processor. I am looking to get rid of the MXR and get the Brassmaster clone. As for the amplification, I am not using a Marshall and am not looking to spend any more money on the setup so I have to settle for what I am using.

One one side I use an SWR400S driving a Eden 2-12 w/horn and the other side is a GK800RB driving a EAW BG150. It's an old bi-amp cabinet which works well with the 800RB.
For bass pedals I am using a Taurus II going into a Roland SE-50 into the same cabinets.

[jnbgtr]

never thought of Squire as much of a fretless player...I've never seen him play one before. but as far as reaching high notes, you can play an F# harmonic on a 4string, just not a natural harmonic. Fret the F# and place one finger 12 frets above it and use another finger to sound the note. Wallah. Also I'm pretty sure he used a Danelectro 6 string bass (tuned octave below guitar) which would give him a high range. I modded a new Danelectro Hodad Baritone to do that for me...

And I have heard of Sound City amps...dont know how good they are, but I imagine they are pretty cheap on ebay or pawn shops.

neuf



The bass Chris used for Turn of the Century was a custom made Zon 5 (or 6) string bass. You can see him play it on numerous DVD's. Plus I've seen him play that particular song probably 15 times live.

[jnbgtr]

As for stings, Roto Sound Jazz are the ones he uses and there changed often. When you put new ones on any bass the tone is really bright and clear. Personally I like the mellower tone of old strings and I can get alot of high end tone with adjustments on my SWR.

:cool:

The strings he uses are the Swing 66. Not sure what Rotosound Jazz even are.

[bjlevine]

Okay, I've spent a lot of time researching this and working on it. I have to say that getting the Squire sound is equally based on what you play, how you play and how you amplify.

That being said, I firmly believe that to really get the authentic vintage sound (1968-1974), you really need to consider dual amps. I run the low side through a fairly clean amp driving 15"s, and a bright treble signal through my effects into another amp driving 10" speakers. I really believe this gives you the best sound.

The other suggestion is to change your strings frequently for the brightest sound.

My current rig is a Rickenbacker bass, two Ashdown 300 amps, an Ashdown 2-10 cabinet an Ashdown 1-15 cabinet, Morley Little Alligator volume pedal, Morley Bad Horsie wah pedal, Zoom B2 effects unit, Morley ABY switch, Behringer noise gate and a custom made analog bass pedal synth.

[bjlevine]

Well, Chris' Wal copy has a fretless neck for 'Awaken', but he also played fretless on most of 'The Remembering' (a Guild, I believe).

[jnbgtr]

Well, Chris' Wal copy has a fretless neck for 'Awaken', but he also played fretless on most of 'The Remembering' (a Guild, I believe).

You are 100% on. Chris has commented that the damn thing is so hard to play now that he never picks it up anymore (The Guild). I have the best interview that I bet few people know about on Chris. It's a book by Dan Hedges and it's out of print. British Rock Guitarists. It has Howe, Rutherford, Hackett, Squire, Beck, etc. etc. It's a who's who of the best guitarists and bassists from the 70's. Learned a bit from the interview with Chris on what and how he plays.

[jnbgtr]

Okay, I've spent a lot of time researching this and working on it. I have to say that getting the Squire sound is equally based on what you play, how you play and how you amplify.

That being said, I firmly believe that to really get the authentic vintage sound (1968-1974), you really need to consider dual amps. I run the low side through a fairly clean amp driving 15"s, and a bright treble signal through my effects into another amp driving 10" speakers. I really believe this gives you the best sound.

The other suggestion is to change your strings frequently for the brightest sound.

My current rig is a Rickenbacker bass, two Ashdown 300 amps, an Ashdown 2-10 cabinet an Ashdown 1-15 cabinet, Morley Little Alligator volume pedal, Morley Bad Horsie wah pedal, Zoom B2 effects unit, Morley ABY switch, Behringer noise gate and a custom made analog bass pedal synth.

Being that I am stuck with a mono out on the CS I really can't do what you guys can for the pickup splitting.

[Earl Grey]

Neuf,
I'm an electronics engineer who has been playing guitars and keyboards for 35 years and a fan of Yes since 72. In my humble opinion, The key to Mr. Squire's tone is TREBLE and TUBES. Basically, tube (or valve) amps as they start to overdrive accent the even harmonics of the note (warm and generally fuller) whereas transistor or FET amps accent the odd harmonics (generally more harsh and reedy). Transistor amps as a rule sound very good for bass, but to my knowledge Chris never used one. In the "classic" days he used Sunn amps and Cabs. Nowadays he uses Marshall (amoung other things).
The good news is that the old Sunn amps aren't that popular. You can find them often for under $300.00 at various places like gbase.com or ebay.
As to Mr. Howe, I wasn't aware that he used a Dano, but he does love to modify his equipment. He won't speak to much about spicifics, but he has let clues slip over the years regarding his es 175, vintage fender and pedals. If you are electrically inclined, drop me a line and I can give you some links regarding modifications to your music electronics.
Ridvan

Listen to this guy Neuf! He knows his stuff. I can attest to it personally. Will is a personal friend of mine, and I'd take his opinion on sonics above anyone else's. He's the man.

You should see the guy's music room: Wall to wall guitars, basses, you have to weave your way around the amplifiers.

Treble and Tubes is the equation.

Squire's the sheeit huh?
Best in the world.

Best of luck to you. Thunder just struck overhead. Not kidding. Here in southern california. At my posting of the name 'SQUIRE'.

Appropriate.

Thunderstricken,
eegee:yesbird:

[bjlevine]

Being that I am stuck with a mono out on the CS I really can't do what you guys can for the pickup splitting.
Well, that's what the ABY switch is for. I run my mono signal through the volume and wah pedals, then split it, with one side going through the clean amp and the other side going through my effects unit (for fuzz, chorus, tremolo, etc) and to my overdriven amp.

[jnbgtr]

Well, that's what the ABY switch is for. I run my mono signal through the volume and wah pedals, then split it, with one side going through the clean amp and the other side going through my effects unit (for fuzz, chorus, tremolo, etc) and to my overdriven amp.

I thought of that bu the problem there is that in that setup you're not taking one pickup and process it one way versus the other. You're just taking the combined tone and splitting it after the fact. Unfortunately in that respect it will only get me so close (or far) to the real setup.

[YESOLA]

Yes I have a comment on Squires bass tone - the best I have ever heard....

I guess that doesn't help much huh? ;) .