Yes '79 split - Tormato to blame?

[Dantalion Rides Again]

You know, I wonder sometimes if Yes history would have been different if Tormato had a better name and a better album cover. Kind of a silly idear (especially since I don't really know why Jon and Rick left, exactly . . . they're not terribly clear on that as far as I know) but follow me here . . .

Chime in if you know anything about this: Did they see the proposed album cover, decide they hated it, and then throw a tomato at it? Is that just a myth?

Either way you gotta wonder if they were making some big joke when this title and cover came about. It might have seemed funny to them at the time, but mostly it just seems strange and a little dumb.

But let's suppose for a second that Tormato had been called something else . . . maybe Yes Tor or whatever. And let's say it wasn't a Dean cover, but something a little better than GFTO & Tormato’s covers. Would their album sales have been better? Would they have gone to Paris in ’79 more unified and happy? If so, would they have stayed together and bypassed all the various skewed versions of the band? It’d be interesting to hear the evolution of Yes had Jon and Rick stayed. In some ways it's taken them 25 years to recover from that split-up.

Why exactly did they break up, anyway? Was it the Paris sessions? Were they in Paris going, “How are we gonna ever follow up an album with a tomato smashed across the cover?”??

[Scooty]

You know, I wonder sometimes if Yes history would have been different if Tormato had a better name and a better album cover. Kind of a silly idear (especially since I don't really know why Jon and Rick left, exactly . . . they're not terribly clear on that as far as I know) but follow me here . . .

Chime in if you know anything about this: Did they see the proposed album cover, decide they hated it, and then throw a tomato at it? Is that just a myth?

Either way you gotta wonder if they were making some big joke when this title and cover came about. It might have seemed funny to them at the time, but mostly it just seems strange and a little dumb.

But let's suppose for a second that Tormato had been called something else . . . maybe Yes Tor or whatever. And let's say it wasn't a Dean cover, but something a little better than GFTO & Tormato’s covers. Would their album sales have been better? Would they have gone to Paris in ’79 more unified and happy? If so, would they have stayed together and bypassed all the various skewed versions of the band? It’d be interesting to hear the evolution of Yes had Jon and Rick stayed. In some ways it's taken them 25 years to recover from that split-up.

Why exactly did they break up, anyway? Was it the Paris sessions? Were they in Paris going, “How are we gonna ever follow up an album with a tomato smashed across the cover?”??


you pose an interesting question..cause to me this is the most fascinating period of the band. Here's the way I see it..and please tell me if y'all disagree.

Going For The One is released...YEaaaaaaahhhh, the band is happy, fans are happy, the tour is happy, ebverybody is happy. Yes releases a stellar album, with a cover that is a bit forward looking, kinda Floydish..but not Dean at all, as if to say this is a new era...we are still Yes but we are looking forward....future times, if you will. the album sold brilliantly (as far as I have read) the reviews didnt suck, and the tour was phenomenal..(so I have heard through boots...thanks kirk)..I was too young to participate then. So, punk hit...probably around 76, and it was the nuclear winter for Prog...all Yes had to do was put out a GREAT album...a brilliant follow up to GFTO...it wasnt to be. Tormato I love, dont get me wrong..but there is just something about that album, incoherent?? Inconsistent?? disjointed?? Yeah, but it had some killer tracks...but not the album they needed to survive into the 80's. The band was tired, fighting amongst themselves...they really needed a break..and they didnt take it. Now, the tour 78-79..Ive heard was the greatest thing since sliced bread...so what went wrong?? No one wanted to listen to each other anymore, Jon wanted to remain lofty, as did Wakey I imagine, but I really think Chris and Alan..maybe Steve wanted to rock a little more..modernize..(which hopefully these new bonus tracks will reveal the opposing sides). But I think everyone wanted to be something different than they were at that point and they had to fight to reamain "viabale"..and they even got Roy Thomas baker to produce DISASTER!!!! 78-79 was a hard time for Prog (Love Beach, Stormwatch, come to mind)...sales were dipping they were dinosaurs. Paris broke down cause bo body cared...and to top it off Alan broke his ankle roller skating so they couldnt continue..Jon was into Vangelis, Rick wasnt into YES anymore, Chris, Steve and Alan I think wanted to toughen the sound up..this post is way too long..sorry...but I love , adore this period..its fascinating to me...

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Exactly what I'm sayin', scootyes89. What the heck went wrong? Tormato is a fine record, but it does reveal a certain lack of confidence & unity compared with the previous . . . what, . . . six albums??

I've often wondered why the heck they were writing and recording so quickly during that period. It seems they weren't really ready. Going for the One was ready, but what happened that makes Tormato seem so unsure of itself? And then of course Paris did 'em in - what happened?

Your post gets me thinking . . . maybe the cover and the title are just symptoms of the bigger problem. Maybe there were just too many internal and external pressures happening to late '70s Yes, and they caved in.

But what if they hadn't? Suppose they'd been strong enough to NOT throw tomatoes at their records? :D

[Scooty]

Exactly what I'm sayin', scootyes89. What the heck went wrong? Tormato is a fine record, but it does reveal a certain lack of confidence & unity compared with the previous . . . what, . . . six albums??

I've often wondered why the heck they were writing and recording so quickly during that period. It seems they weren't really ready. Going for the One was ready, but what happened that makes Tormato seem so unsure of itself? And then of course Paris did 'em in - what happened?

Your post gets me thinking . . . maybe the cover and the title are just symptoms of the bigger problem. Maybe there were just too many internal and external pressures happening to late '70s Yes, and they caved in.

But what if they hadn't? Suppose they'd been strong enough to NOT throw tomatoes at their records? :D

It was inevitable...almost as if they had said SCREW IT!! Cause there is a certain charm about Tormato..but its so um um what's the word...distant from GFTO..like two entirely different bands had recorded them and they are all but a year apart. Something was in the wind, something wasn't right and I think YES was sick and tired of being put down, made fun of and being called Dinosaurs 10 years into their career. The tomato on the cover is rumored to have been thrown by Wakey..at an example of what the cover would be..and it stuck..I find that hard to believe...I dunno..would we be talking about YES-TOR..as much as we talk about Tormato?? Why is that the only LP in the catalog that went out of print..it sold well didnt it?? I think they were tired..not ready...daunted by the coming storm of brevity, punk...3 minute songs..YES wasnt holding onto HIP...they couldnt...but musically they were still relevant..just not on that record..I try to find a comparison..like ok..Tormato doesnt "DATE" well..it sounds like it was recorded in '78..where as GFTO sounded like it was recorded tomorrow. If you watch Yesyears the most poinent part of that film is during the recording of Tormato, they are arguing and fighting..they were tired...if they would have waited a year to record..kept touring like they did..who knows?? I think they couldnt follow up GFTO...impossible...within that year look how much changed...am I makin any sense??..LOL

[About The Round]

There are a lot of duality in this recording going on. On one hand Anderson are as ethereal as before – still he tries to look at his own work from a superego angle like in Circus Of Heaven, –"There´s no clowns...". I belive he´s been listening to the critics too mutch and is cornered away from the fancy tales and spiritual quests. Music magazines said bull---- to those aspects. "Release, release" is one catalyzing disaster of a song. Hailing the rock and rock business in general. That´s the same business punk was having a go at. The same business as Pink Floyd had a go at right through the seventies. Yes was stribing for capturing something new and even to swallow something from the current popular musical styles to keep up. In this they also lost themselves, finding no solid ground to make a foothold. I think many of the fans of 1978 senced this. After Tormato Yes no longer was a progressive flashy rock group but a stadion-rock band.

By the way, I like Tormato.

[Thoughtbecontact]

One of the problems with Tormato is that Jon did back off and the vision of the album is somewhat disjointed. Of all the Yes works from the 1970s, this one is the most loosely themed--in fact, it has no theme at all. The changing music industry, at the time, did play into this and contributed to the demise of the group as we knew it by the end of the decade. I recall reading somewhere that Tormato was the first work where the band didn't have complete control over the output. In other words, this was the first album where the record industry hacks were saying, "It has to sound like this." This is strongly evident in the use of keyboard sounds in particular on Tormato. Wakey used the god-awful Birotron, thus explaining why parts of Tormato sound dated while the earlier GFTO doesn't. It's also quite evident in the live concert recordings too. There are parts of the concerts where you just want to cringe at the sounds Wakey produces, particularly in the Six Wives part of his solo. When listening, one thinks, "What WAS your thinking here? This sounds horrible (sound-wise, not technique-wise).

What is a complete shame here is that the era from GFTO through 1979 iwasprobably one of their most amazing periods for live recordings. Steve was blistering, Chris had an incredible wah-wah and energy going with his bass--particularly in 1978 and 1979--and Jon's vocal phrasing had matured to a point where every single song was emotionally wrenching. That was something missing on the earlier recordings. They were definitely on top of their game, and it all fell apart.

I've heard the 1979 Paris sessions and I found much of it boring. To me, everything sounded the same. Like Tormato, there are good songs in there, but it's hard to find them amidst the rubble.

[brismike]

But let's suppose for a second that Tormato had been called something else . . . maybe Yes Tor or whatever. And let's say it wasn't a Dean cover, but something a little better than GFTO & Tormato’s covers.


Errrrm .. it wasn't a Dean Cover as far as I know. Dean came back to do the Drama Cover.

Mike

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Errrrm .. it wasn't a Dean Cover as far as I know. Dean came back to do the Drama Cover.

Mike

Yeah I know. I'm just sayin', let's imagine it was just slightly better . . . imagine it merely wasn't ridiculous.

[BlueEagle]

I think all the idears above contributed to the less than stunning outcome of TORMENTO. Also, there wasnt a strong producer presence as in the past.
Personally I wasnt overwhelmed by Rick's almost exclusive use of the polymoog and birotron. The keyboard (and bass) sounds, as Steve pointed out, were disappointing.

[ANTIOCH]

As is the case in any marriage, you hit your highs and lows. YES went from an incredible high with 'GFTO' to hitting a musical wall with 'Tormato'. Although they were as tight as a drum musically ( a great 'live' period) , their creative/collaborative fuel had dried out.
The idea's brought forth here are very interesting.

[tardistraveler]

This thread reminded me of one I saw on YesTalk, with links to an interview with Jon Anderson shortly after this time. I'm posting them here - it's a very interesting read.


http://yesmuseum.org/Anderson1980.1.txt
http://yesmuseum.org/Anderson1980.2.txt

[CybrKhatru]

I too have been revisiting this period of the band's history, rereading the sections in Chris Welch's book as well---I guess in preparation for the upcoming remasters.

I'd read that it was one of the guys at Hipgnosis who actually threw the tomato at the cover! (I've always liked the cover, actually, minus the tomato!!!)

Rick has said a number of times that Tormato is one album that he wishes would get remixed...sonically it's such a departure from the fullness of GftO. If the mix was a more integrated one, I wonder how it would color our opinions of the album as a whole. I do really like it, and some of it is excellent, but maybe a better mix would make the whole thing more unified.

Also, a good buddy gave me a live CD from Boston 1978 (which he attended) and despite Rick's endorsement of the Birotron, the playing level really is superb. I wish as part of this "official bootleg" series, Yes would decide to release from "vault" concerts in their entirety--even though Yesshows covers portions of this period, a couple of cleaned-up complete 78/79 shows would be a welcome additon to the collection!

---Matt

[SonicDeath10]

musically the main problem i see is that all the band members are going all over the place all the time. there is no back bone to the songs. everybody is trying to out play each other all the time. i actually lilke this approach, and the two ballads on here are wonderful and spastic rockers like release release and arriving ufo show a funnier Yes... but a Yes that was destroying itself. I enjoy the album but it can be hard to listen to the band sounding like they want to kill each other.

[Bo Locks]

I think those that haven't yet heard the Paris Sessions (but soon will on the Rhino Drama - remember there are a further 2 tracks on In A Word...) would get the idea of a Yes aiming at a shorter song format not dissimilar to Tormato. It must be remembered that these are only demos or unfinished songs at best, but I feel they show a sadder part of Yes making too many compromises and not taking steps forward. The demos appear to be Anderson/Wakeman led, i.e. there's loads of vocals and keyboards but almost no guitar on some parts.

[Bo Locks]

BTW: they could stick the arse end of a donkey on the cover in close-up, if the music cuts it I would love it! Roger who...?

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Good thoughts Bo Locks.

Actually this thread has turned out to be a great read, and it's a cool group-critique of Yes's 78-79 era.

I tend to hold Tormato in high regard. It doesn't sound terribly flawed to me, mainly because it was one of the first Yes albums I had.

I started this thread to focus on the cover and the album title, thinking it would be kind of funny to ponder the importance of naming a decent album stupidly.

I wasn't really looking to the actual music as a huge problem . . . I mean, they moved to a different song format, and their songs and sounds were overcompromised; all this is evident. But these things never really changed after Tormato anyway. Not until ABWH did they start to work toward a singular vision and longer pieces.

But does anyone else think the cover and title had an effect on their future? I'm really being silly here, but only half-silly.

[SonicDeath10]

i don't think length is the deciding factor of the problem of some of Yes's later music. some long pieces are horrible. example: ELP's Memoirs of a Gentleman.

i don't even know if the problem was that they compromised. i think it was lack of focus. example: 90125 is fresh, intersting, tightly written, well produced etc. sure it's not complicated or anything but it's well written with great melodies, vocals, and some interesting instrumentation.

big generator is a bit more of the same but with trevor kind of going his own "big generator" way trying for a hit and jon wanting to write songs about haromnic convergence. also see union: too many cooks in the kitchen, everybody with their own ideas. two bands basically trying to do what they wanted and being compromised by a producer who had no idea what to do with the band. a disaster.

talk on the other hand was a focused attempt by both jon and trevor to write in the classic yes way mixed with the Yes of 90125 and it's great. open your eyes was a toss off, a billy sherwood album, but it's a great album for what it is: guitar pop.

only on the last two albums has Yes again had a unified vision for quite a long period of time. The Ladder did have some slight adult contemporary touches, but jon is such a good writer he couldn't write something bland like Yanni. even "if only you knew" has a neat little descending guitar line and a great vocal melody. now, the classic Yes sound is back on Magnification, and it's amazing. Yes is back.

[bender]

Well, I hate the cover but love the album!

One thing I don't understand is why people say that Tormato sounds "dated" due to Ricks keyboards.

Arlene wrote:
"Wakey used the god-awful Birotron, thus explaining why parts of Tormato sound dated while the earlier GFTO doesn't." and "When listening, one thinks, "What WAS your thinking here? This sounds horrible (sound-wise, not technique-wise)."

I don't understand this reasoning. The "birotron" was new (from what I understand) so therefore how can it already sound dated? - it isn't an instrument designed to mimick others (like the mellotron), it was used to create sounds that (at the time) were unheard of.
Just because to some the actual sounds are "cheesy" or "god awful" doesn't mean that it sounds dated.

Now look at GFTO, Rick uses a lot of church organ on this record - er.. how old is this instrument? We're talking the middle ages here!
Is he making sounds on it that haven't been heard before? No! So why doesn't GFTO sound dated?

Someone educate me on why Tormato sounds dated because just don't get it!

I think the worst thing about the album is what SonicDeath said "everybody is trying to out play each other all the time"

It does sound like there is simply too much going on within some of the songs - but I would rather this than musicians standing around doing basically nothing.

BTW - Tormato Chart info: UK-#8 US-#10

[Earl Grey]

What an amazing thread this is.

Dantalion, once again, 'We're Not Worthy! We're Not Worthy!'

Nice thread, compadre...

Tormato sounds like the amazing YES album that ran out of steam, due to politics and time and a few choice words, words that I can't print here...

It had all of the themes of a great YES album.
And Tormato fell short, short, as it was rushed and tossed out into the usual fray of what the A&R Team of it's time requested for the Billboard 100.

Given another month, Tormato could have rocked the world.

They would have called it something else.

Yet, as is, Tormato is the beloved puppy with the bent tail.

Indispensible, but what it could have been... We'll never know.

Fantasy is a good thing.

Tormato was the GREAT YES album that never was.

But WOW! And WOW!

Listen betwen the cracks... Tormato has amazing moments. It does.
And I love it...

Like I love the puppy with the broken tail...

I wouldn't trade Tormato for anything. I hold to it, 15 years after.

I love this album. And it's frustrating at times.

Flawed, but there's so much there.

Silent Wings Of Freedom should have lasted at least 30 minutes. A&R wanted another 'Roundabout', so there you go.

The best flawed album of all time. Miles above 'Let It Be'.

:ele:

[Bo Locks]

It's not reasoning... it's technology.

The reason every modern keyboard has a church organ sound (a fake, not the real thing you must understand) is that it's a CLASSIC sound that never ages. It has power, depth, rich rich timbre, variation, invokes majesty, reminds you of church incense, etc.

The reason no modern keyboard has a Birotron sound (a fake...) is that it's NOT a classic sound, i.e. nobody after ol' Rick touched it with a barge pole making it a sound of its time (1978). That being the case, one says it's dated.

I think the ol' Biro' IS dated from a keyboard players point of view, but simultaneously I love the solo on Don't Kill The Whale! (Isn't that a Polymoog tho'? I think we're all confused. It was the Moog that went 'breedly-freedly-tweedly...' Somebody agree.) No one's blaming Rick for embracing technology that didn't last longer than the cardboard box it came in. Rick is sounding better than ever now - solo or with Yes!

[Earl Grey]

Well,

Wakey unfortunately had sounds on Tormato that would be within the reach of every video game, shortly after he biotroned himself...

Still...

Listen to Tormato while pretending to have never heard SPACE INVADERS.

How things went: Not how I thought they'd go.

And not as Wakey thought they'd go as well.

We are supposed to be walking on Titan right now...

Not sitting at home while our PROBES go to Mars.

Strange days, who'd have guessed?

Not I!

;)

[Dantalion Rides Again]

Listen to Tormato while pretending to have never heard SPACE INVADERS.


:lol: :lmao:

Hey thanks Earl - this thread is turning out to be a fun time.

The keyboard sounds never really bothered me that much. I like the fact that Tormato sounds unique - it doesn't sound grating to me. Generally speaking I think this album sounds cool.

And some of the writing and arranging is just so thick and involved that I can't say the album sounds under-done to my ears either, as is the common complaint about 'Tales'. It does sound like they didn't share the same vision though.

And I still wonder how things might have been different for poor ol' Tormato if they'd named it well and given it a better album cover . . . !

[Faceintheplace]

I think it would have been cool if they called it "Tornado". The front cover would be an unsuspecting bungalo in a desert landscape. The back cover would be the same house but completely crushed to the ground.

The keyboard sounds on that album I never had a problem with, for me it was Chris' bass tone. The only time ever I can't get too into Chris' bass sound is on Tormato. The playing is still geat, but that wobbly tone... Plus as the guys say, in the hands of a producer it might have been a tighter album. Hearing all the great out-takes there were from this album makes me think that if they'd focused more time on pieces like "Countryside," it would have sounded like more of a natural succsessor to GFTO.

That being said, there are some great Yes moments on Tormato, "Future Times," "Madrigal," "Release Release", "Onward" and "On The Silent Wings of Freedom." "Don't Kill the Whale" is okay, it got a lot more exciting live.

[RobAdams]

Individually, each track on TORMATO is decent (some better than others obviously) but the problem with TORMATO is that the songs don't compliment each other well. It sounds like a collection of leftovers and B sides. I still love it though...

TORMATO sounds like the band had a hard time coming up with great material. Compare it to GFTO, and it's like night and day. I can very well imagine that if I had written AWAKEN, I would feel like I had written the ultimate song. And how does one follow AWAKEN? Perhaps by writing songs that are more earthbound?

[fragile34]

i think the paris session was the final nail in the coffin.

[C0ops]

Humm i dont perticularly think it was the album Tormato that brought them apart i think they just had enough of working musically with eachother it was time to move on. The album just happend to be the end a kind of catalyst.

[BredYes]

Interesting thread.

I just got Jon's Song of Seven. It was released in 1980 shortly after the Yes split in 1979. If you compare this album with Drama (also released in 1980), you have to conclude that musically Jon chosed a totally different direction than Chris, Steve and Alan did at that time. Drama is dark, rock, powerfull while Song of Seven is light, sweet, spiritual, pop.
Beside personal issues (which it difficult to judge by us) this differences in musical style must be one of the main reasons for Yes spit in 1979.
By the way, both Song of Seven and Drama are great.

[Faceintheplace]

Interesting because that lines up with Chris Squire said in 1980 on Jim Ladd's Innerview special. He was saying that there was a disagreement within two factions of the band on where Yes' music should go. He said that Steve, Alan and him were anxious to do a hard rock album with the same musicanship that Yes had always been known for and they found the material Jon and Rick were working on 'whimpy.' I can imagine that in group meetings, the word 'whimpy' might have been substituted by something else. I myself like both Jon's "Song of Seven" material and the intense rock power that is "Drama."

[Bo Locks]

BTW: you get the demo versions of Days and Some Are Born from Song Of Seven on the Rhino Tormato.

BTBTW: the Paris Sessions tracks on the Rhino Drama are not obviously cut up and re-pasted the way that Tango and Flower Girl (Never Done Before) were on In A Word - between the 2 however, Everybody Loves You is missing.

[SKEETER]

I am brand new to this forum, but a Yes fan from way back. First time I heard Roundabout on the radio I was awed. I was a YES fan long before Tormato, but, I only liked certain things in their music, for example I like most of the songs on Fragile, and Close To The Edge, but was not really into much after that until TORMATO.

Now, to the point, I really think the artwork for Tormato was, at the time, appropriate, for the simple reason it was a departure from the norm of a band who had become a little too familiar to the public. For the young whippersnappers here, it is important to remember that most of rock music happened before MTV came on the scene, and part of the rock era was a certain mystery about bands that no longer exists. Most of us had no idea what YES looked like, and, there were not that many published interviews with them, or anyone else for that matter. SO, when Tormato came out, the artwork was a departure that made the album intriguing, and, I bought it on the basis of the artwork, just wanting to see what YES with the new artwork sounded like.
As for the quality of the music, I think Tormato is some of the best music YES has done, and although it was not as cohesive as other works or as thematic, it had something yess previous albums did not, it had a consistant stream of music that you could whislte or hum! That was something that was missing on previous Yes albums, the songs are just songs that, even if you think they suck the first time you hear them, come to you mind as you are going down the road, or as you are on the john, or whatever. And, that is the test of good music, if it makes people NOT be able to get it out of their heads. Also, put a pair of headphones on and listen to TORMATO, and you hear some pretty fantastic sonics going on, the LADDER, as good as it is, has nothing on Tormato in production and sonics, but consider the date. When Tormato came out, Dark Side of the Moon was less than 10 years old, and synthesizers were still pretty much a new thing. The idea of using synths along with interesting production tricks was still pretty new stuff.
(I am myself a musician and arrange/record/produce my own stuff, and I know full well how easy it is to let the gear take over, it is really hard to use technical wizardry and still be creative, it is far too easy to let the equipment do the job for you. I commend YES for throwing the owners manuals away and using the gear creatively, not to the formatted formulas)

Also of note, beacuse YES at the time did not do a lot of interviews, they had a certain percieved mystique (Yes was really carrying the burden of mystique more than other bands, because they were miles ahead of everyone else in vituosity, don't forget, Yes hit the market before bands like Rush was on the scene, and they hit tha marker much harder than Emerson Lake and Palmer)
As much as I beleive rock music pretty much died around 1980 (it bled to death after heavy metal shot it on the foot) YES has been able to consistantly change their sound without losing their creativity, and I am glad that their newer music has hints of Tormato in it. I think their later stuff is more like Tormato than anything else they have done, because again, it is not so experimental that it is nonsensical, and it is interesting while being repetitive enough to be memorable. Listen to The Ladder and compare it to Tormato, then compare it to Fragile. I think TORMATO is the pinacle, and one that they keep reaching again and again.
Also of note, if you like the Trevor Rabin era of YES, Mr Rabin has an CD out called Can't Look Away that is one of my favorites. It has very interesting songs, and the production and musicianship is superb. It also kind of has the same edge to it that he gave YES, I am a guitarist, and have been for a long time, and beleive me, as fantastic is Steve Howe is, Trevor Rabin and him are a match on guitar, they are just different. Trevor Rabin can play triplets and quadrouplets faster than any guitarist I have ever heard short of Steve Morse, and he also has very complex voicing and phrasing.

[brismike]

I am a guitarist, and have been for a long time, and beleive me, as fantastic is Steve Howe is, Trevor Rabin and him are a match on guitar, they are just different. Trevor Rabin can play triplets and quadrouplets faster than any guitarist I have ever heard short of Steve Morse, and he also has very complex voicing and phrasing.

Nice post .. I agree with a lot of what you say .. although the last bit, which I have quoted from your post, I don't. Yes, Trevor is fast .. and so is Steve Morse, but if you think they are amongst the fastest then you probably haven't seen or heard Steve Vai.

I just got a DVD called "G3 Live in Denver", it features Steve Vai and it is something else. When he gets out the triple neck, 12 string, 6 string & 6 string fretless guitar wow . . be prepared to be blown away.

Mike

[jimmygtr]

Jon was leaning towards the spacey folky that he was doing with Vangelis and the howe/squire/white were not.

Definitely the 70's prog rock did not know how to deal with the emegence of disco/punk.

[SKEETER]

Nice post .. I agree with a lot of what you say .. although the last bit, which I have quoted from your post, I don't. Yes, Trevor is fast .. and so is Steve Morse, but if you think they are amongst the fastest then you probably haven't seen or heard Steve Vai.

I just got a DVD called "G3 Live in Denver", it features Steve Vai and it is something else. When he gets out the triple neck, 12 string, 6 string & 6 string fretless guitar wow . . be prepared to be blown away.

Mike
I am amazed by Steve Vais technical skills on the guitar, but, I find his music to be for the most part uninteresting. It sounds like someone practicing scales. It is also a little too much into the freestyle jazz realm for me. I don't rate guitarists just on the basis of speed and timing, I rate them on creativity. I still would rather listen to Leslie West on old Mountain albums than anyone else.... but he certainly is not lightning fast. There is something to be said for getting good tone and phrasing, it makes or breaks a guitarist. Not only that, it is far too easy to cheat nowadays (I do it myself) comping is old hat, guitarists have been doing it since Les Paul figured out how to multitrack, but, I prefer recorded music, and in my opinion the end justifies the means, if it sounds great, I don't care how they did it. As long as they didn't do it the same way as everyone else (in which case it would not be interesting). The great thing about Steve Howe and Trevor Rabin is that they were around long before the guitar hero thing hit full force, and were pioneers as opposed to "johnny come latelies".

[SKEETER]

Also of note. in the event you do not know this, it is my understanding that Steve Morse does not hammer notes at all, he picks every single note. It sounds to me as if Steve Vai does a lot of hammering, which is fine, but actually picking the notes is WAY more difficult.

[AwakeMan]

This is a very interesting forum !

I agree with Skeeter that the cover for Tormato was appropriate for it's time. On the first page of the liner notes from the recent Rhino re-master there is a veiled clue to what the cover signified - that YES, the archetypal old boring prog band, could also do punk power rock as good if not better than anyone else, could wear black bomber jackets and throw rotten fruit as well !

Then the music said it too - the incessant drive of "Release, Release" and the power of "On the silent wings..." really did give the punks something to notice. The softer songs showed their already proven lyrical side still had a place on a rock album.

The keyboard sounds are a bit jangly, but they were still exciting - a church organ would just not have suited these shorter pieces.

I personally believe this album was conceived as a follow-up to GFTO but mid-way the title and cover art had to be drastically modified due to the changing musical times. Yes did their best with "Tormato" and the 1978/79 tour is famous for the sheer quality of their performances. They were unlucky commercially and this caused financial problems which wore them down a bit - they were already tired after the long 1977 tour. The nail was in the coffin even before they went to the ill-fated Paris studio. The changing times and circumstances just went against them.

Despite all this the true fans remembered and valued what they had achieved in the seventies and this explains their enduring popularity to this day.

Thanks for some very interesting posts.

Séamus.

[Orbert]

I agree with Skeeter that the cover for Tormato was appropriate for it's time. On the first page of the liner notes from the recent Rhino re-master there is a veiled clue to what the cover signified - that YES, the archetypal old boring prog band, could also do punk power rock as good if not better than anyone else, could wear black bomber jackets and throw rotten fruit as well !

Then the music said it too - the incessant drive of "Release, Release" and the power of "On the silent wings..." really did give the punks something to notice. The softer songs showed their already proven lyrical side still had a place on a rock album.
In 1980, I was a freshman living in a dorm, and these guys down on the first floor were playing Tormato very loudly one day while I was passing by. I stopped in to chat with them for a minute, since the door was open.

I don't remember their names, didn't really know them, but the one guy told me that Yes is completely unlike anything he normally listens to, but this one album, "Tomato", is really really cool. I bit back my urge to tell him that it was probably my least favorite Yes album. Instead, I asked what he usually listened to, and it was all punk, new-wave, that kind of thing. The posters and other dorm decor backed that up.

I think it's entirely possible that he was drawn to the album by the cover art, or something else in the "new image" of the band. What's certain is that Yes made a new fan, and someone had their musical horizons broadened by it, and that can only be a good thing.

Orbert

[Amy]

I have to go with Bo Locks on this one. I couldn't care less what kind of artwork they have on their covers. The music is where it's at. I am still not a fan of Tormato; and I just bought it again after not having it for over 20 years. I don't like the keyboard sounds on this album either. It really kills it for me. Release, release is pretty good, but this album just doesn't come anywhere near the 70's stuff. I do like the bonus tracks, though. Very different for Yes; and I love the blues touch. A side note on that: The acoustic version of Roundabout that they did at the concert was very cool. I was happy not to hear the same old, same old with that song. I love blues anyway, but mixed with Yes is too cool for words!

It's hard for me to be objective about this time period (the 80's). Seems like I had a dark cloud hanging over me the whole decade; but my guess would be that the artwork would have nothing to do with the success of the music or the direction of the band; more like a product of.